NCSS Support Thread - Page 7 - Mothering Forums

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Old 10-21-2006, 08:58 PM
 
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Interesting thought about the sheets. It's funny because the day we got home, I told DH I didn't want to change the sheets because I wanted Brynn to smell the familiar "home" smell. Wouldn't that be TOO MUCH if all of the nights she's slept well have been new sheet nights? : I'm going to change the sheets tonight to test it out!

Anyway, it was about the same temp & humidity in their house; we sleep with it pretty cool and so do they. The only diff is that they have a goose down feather bed on top of their mattress which made it squishier than our bed, but seriously, could that make that big of a difference? The other possibility is that she was just exhausted from running around all day every day and being in a new environment and seeing new people. I dunno.

The playpen thing we had only done for 2-3 nights and it really wasn't making a huge difference - except that DH and I did get some really nice cuddling time in before Brynn joined us, so it was definitely worth it for that reason.

It all just seems like an emotional issue to me though...obviously she can go 4-6 hours during the day without nursing or eating so I think it's not unreasonable to expect her to go 3-4 hours at night. I do wonder if she didn't have a bit of a regression while we were in Texas though; she also refused to do our usually EC on the potty routine while we were there and seems to be slowly getting back into the routine now.

Gotta go but thanks for your thoughts

Ever-evolving mama to my beautiful Brynn, and my little dimple-face Noah .
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Old 10-22-2006, 02:30 AM
 
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My DD has started waking a TON more recently. Gosh, I only wish I knew why. We went from about 2-3 wakings regularly for months on end until she hit about 6.5 months. Now I swear sometimes she'll wake up 15 times in the night! Ahhhh!!

I really wish I could just motivate myself in the night to work on these things. That's my only problem, and the real reason why the NCSS hasn't done much for us yet- because in the night, I'm lost. I canNOT get myself to wake up enough to do anything!!

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Old 10-22-2006, 10:45 AM
 
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Nope - wasn't the sheets.

Ever-evolving mama to my beautiful Brynn, and my little dimple-face Noah .
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Old 10-22-2006, 03:11 PM
 
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Another thought Amy - reading your last post you said she can go 4-6 hours during the day without eating... that seems like a HUGE long time to me, Rowan never goes more than 2 hours without eating something, either booby or people food. Perhaps Brynn is reverse-cycling, just because she can? Try getting her to eat more frequently during the day?

FWIW, Rowan NEVER signals hunger, but if she's gone 2 hours without eating, she'll eat a ton. Of course, all babies are different, yada yada yada...

Postpartum doula & certified breastfeeding educator, mama to an amazing girl (11/05) and a wee little boy (3/13).

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Old 10-22-2006, 04:01 PM
 
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Yeah, you know, that is totally possible. She's too busy to eat (nurse) much during the day so maybe she is loading up at night! I don't remember if I had mentioned this here or in the DDC, but she's just barely begun to eat solids (we bypassed babyfood totally); she's really had no interest. I definitely think she needs the calories though! She's so mobile and active that I've really been trying to get her to eat more solids for the denser nutritional value, and she's slowly showing more interest.

I think our "plan" is to try to transition her into the pack'n'play and we're going to do the same routine for 10 nights to see how it goes. Last night we started out in the PnP, but she still woke up every hour all night. :

Anyway, don't mean to hijack the thread or anything! Spughy, can't you just come to stay with us for a couple of weeks and work your NCSS magic on us!??

Ever-evolving mama to my beautiful Brynn, and my little dimple-face Noah .
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Old 11-14-2006, 03:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Wow! When I started this thread, I had NO idea it would go to 10 pages or more.

We are certainly a sleepy bunch! :

As an update, we continue to have amazing sleep from our little one...except when she is teething.

So, last night I was up at 11:30 and 4:30 and maybe another time. Still beats waking the 5-6 times I used to in the 'old' days, but it's still hard to wake up the morning.

Why does the baby rarely seem tired after she's woken up so many times and DH and I are about to keel over? One of life's mysteries!

Here's to you all getting more sleep.
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Old 11-14-2006, 03:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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You can read a review of Good Night Sleep Tight here:
http://www.totville.com/book.html

I used that book and it REALLY was the key in getting us to get more sleep for everyone.

Also, I wrote more in detail about what we did for our sleep success here:
http://totville.com/babyblog/?cat=9

There is a little fussing, but it is NOT cio.
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Old 11-14-2006, 06:07 PM
 
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We've sort of given up on "trying" to make her sleep longer, and she seems to be growing into it on her own. Her average is now 3-4 hours per stretch, whcih is a big improvement. Well, except for last night...every hour and a half, is what I recall. : <--- me today

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Old 11-16-2006, 04:04 AM
 
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Henhau ~

I struggle with some of the issues that I suspect you were concerned about -crying it out, being the biggest. I agree with you that if they are with you and supported, it isn't the same as crying it out.

Do you think that if the baby does more than fuss (not hysterically crying, but definitely crying) while a parent is there with them it's bad? I'm so sleep-deprived that I'm having a hard time making these distinctions for myself and feeling certain that I'm doing something I won't later regret. Btw, my baby is about 6 1/2 months old.

I feel quite strongly about not letting my baby CIO, but I also know that if I were more rested, I could much better parent both of my children during the day. (I have a 3 1/2 year old as well and I stay at home).

So far, we're just trying some of the NCSS techniques (earlier bedtime and my husband is walking the baby when he wakes instead of me nursing him). These two changes have already made a difference. Oh, he also moved from our bed to the crib because it seems pretty clear that he sleeps better alone. We're planning on trying this for a couple of weeks in the hope that the wakings will become very brief. Then we'll need to move onto something to eliminate the wakings or need for support during the wakings altogether. This is where my question comes in because I suspect he will cry a bit when we don't pick him up. Do you think that's OK if we're still right there with him even though he might cry for awhile? I have no idea what should be expected in order to teach them to fall asleep on their own. With my first son, we never did this - we co-slept and I nursed him at night for a year. I was exhausted, but I had the luxury to be so the next day. I have two children to care for now and it just doesn't seem possible to keep this up much longer.

How long did your baby cry when you began to implement that change?

Thanks for any suggestions.
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Old 11-16-2006, 05:57 PM
 
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Hi all, I'm sorry to barge in like this -- I can't read the whole thread yet because my son takes catnaps and I only have seconds to read/post!

I just finished reading NCSS yesterday, and have some questions. Toby is 5 months old and sleeps in his crib (he cries every 30 minutes if I try to cosleep, but we were able to cosleep for 3 months without issue). It takes me half an hour or longer to rock/nurse him to sleep for a nap, and about an hour to rock/nurse him to sleep for the night. He used to wake up once or twice a night, but lately has either been sleeping through or waking up 3+ times. He usually goes back down quickly at night. His naps only last 30 minutes on the dot! So if I didn't move him to the crib, his entire nap is in my lap. Even in a moving car -- he won't sleep longer than 30 minutes. That's fine, because he takes four per day and seems well-rested, but I'm hoping to decrease the amount of time it takes to put him down.

1) Will NCSS help with shortening the amount of time to put him down? It seems to focus more on getting them back to sleep, but he does pretty good at night.

2) I've been doing the Pantley Pull-off for months with decent success. I usually have to wait until he's asleep, though. But if I don't do it, he'd keep sucking for hours while he sleeps. Should I wait to do the PPO until he stops moving? There are times when he seems to be asleep, but his arms and legs are still moving quite a bit.

3) If he wakes up when I put him down, he cries hysterically. There is no way to soothe him except to nurse, and it will take another 30 minutes to get him back to sleep and then 30 minutes more before I can attempt to move him again. Will I even be able to do phase 1?

4) Do I even want to do this? Right now, his night wakings/feedings last 15-30 minutes, except on bad nights when he doesn't want to go back to sleep (that's only happened twice so far). Should I even tamper with that, since 15-30 minutes seems pretty good to me? The problem I have is that he sometimes wakes up 3 times; and every single night, he wakes at different times. Sometimes at 9, 12, and 3, or 11 and 4, or only at 3:30... It changes daily. It used to be much more consistent until that last month or so (it was always at 2ish and 4ish).

Thanks for any advice!

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Old 11-16-2006, 09:42 PM
 
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Hope I can join in, ladies...

I read NCSS about a month ago, and have been doing the PPO consistently--I'm not sure if it has really made much of a difference in things, though. He is still nursing to sleep, he just doesn't have the nipple as long.

I am really confused about what "problem" we should address first, and hoping a more experienced NCSS-er can help. We have been co-sleeping, but it is starting to become apparent that everyone sleeps much better when he is in his Arm's Reach (he's 3 1/2 months, btw).

So our issues are as follows:

he doesn't nap for more than 30 minutes unless I am sleeping next to him or holding him or slinging him

he wakes up often in the night and usually only settles when nursed

I want to move him into his own bed

He associates going to sleep with nursing

Dh waits tables, and usually doesn't get home until 11 or later, so I am pretty much always the one putting ds to sleep...we kind of have a routine of bath, massage, nurse, but it is hard to tell when to start...sometimes he seems ready for bed at 6, other days as late as 7:30

Also, he is kind of in the middle of her two age ranges. I am kicking myself for not putting him down more often and having dh help more earlier. Oh well

So this has sounded kind of random and confused, cause I am tired and frustrated. I like the flexibility of the NCSS, but at this point, I kind of just want a book that says, do XYZ and you will have sucess!!! (I guess that's what everyone wants!)

So I guess my question is, do I work on breaking the nursing to sleep association first by changing our routine? Or do I keep nursing him to sleep in bed and then transferring him to the co-sleeper? Should I keep doing whatever works for naps until bedtime is better, or work on both at once? I am just confused!!! : : :

TIA for the help

P.S. Dh is rocking him to sleep now, which may work--it's the putting him down part that is tough (last night I got him to stay in the arm's reach after 5 attempts at putting him down. It is easier to nurse him in our bed, then sneak away, but then he is always in our bed...)

Zoe, mama to one "rough and tough" dude (8/02/06) and one new sweet pie (4/11/10)
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Old 11-18-2006, 03:30 AM
 
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Hi Zoeanne,

I'm in a similar boat as you. We just had our 6 month Dr. appt and it really helped to have the doctor normalize what we're all going through. He said that most babies this age are waking quite a bit at night and it does get better. He did encourage working on breaking the nursing to sleep habit, which makes sense.

Some thoughts I have for you (not that I'm an expert by any means...my babe wakes A LOT!):

What is your co-sleeping arrangement? I know you're moving him to his own bed but do you have a queen, king? You might want to put another mattress (maybe a twin) by your bed for you to sleep in after you've snuck away from him. We're going to try that because I think that he senses me so close and that wakes him up for frequently. I'm hoping that having a little more distance between us lets him sleep longer.

Can your husband walk the baby during some of the night wakings when he gets home? We've been trying to watch the clock a bit more...if only an hour has gone by, my husband attends to him with walking. If it's closer to 3 I nurse him again.

It's so hard, but I think that waking is pretty typical. And it seems like there's a pattern of increased waking at about the 6 month mark. I'm very hopeful that the sleep will consolidate in the next few months.

One thing that was helpful to me in the NCSS book was the point that babies on average consolidate their sleep at about 10 months. It just helps me with having reasonable expectations.

Good luck!
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Old 11-18-2006, 12:46 PM
 
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thanks barb36...i realized that i'm not quite ready to move him to his own bed after all! yesterday i made sure he got three good naps, and he slept 7 straight hours last night! I think that i start worrying about what we [B]should or shouldn't[B] be doing, ang get all confused, I am going to keep trying the ppo and putting him down to sleep, but i'm not going to stress over it. thanks so much for your advice...it helps to hear other people's experiences.

Zoe, mama to one "rough and tough" dude (8/02/06) and one new sweet pie (4/11/10)
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Old 11-19-2006, 10:19 AM
 
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Hi...I'm new to NCSS and glad I found this thread. I've read most of it and half the book so far. Last night we did our first log--8 wakings, longest stretch 1hr 34 min, 8.5 hours total. We have a LONG way to go! Is it really neccessary to log 10 days before making a plan? We are ready for a change as soon as possible!
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Old 11-19-2006, 12:49 PM
 
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Amy, I don't think you log for 10 days; if I remember right, you log for 1 or 2 days & nights, and then make a plan and try *that* out for 10 days before making any revisions! Correct me if I'm wrong, other Mamas.

Ever-evolving mama to my beautiful Brynn, and my little dimple-face Noah .
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Old 11-19-2006, 09:59 PM
 
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I am having NO luck at all with the PPO. It just makes my babe really pissed off. I've tried it several times and it just doesn't work no matter how many times I try to do it. Has anyone else had luck with anything else?

We are having my husband walk the baby at night and I do as well sometimes in order to break that nurse-to-sleep association. At naptime it's impossible, though. Unless I'm wearing him I can't manage to get him down without nursing. Then he wakes frequently and nursing is all that will lull him off to sleep again...however he wakes right when I try to pull away or else minutes later.

Ugh! I have a preschooler as well, so I feel like I really need to get the naps figured out. I just did whatever my first needed when he was a baby because I had that luxury. But now it really impacts my time with my son and my overall sense of sanity!

Thanks for any suggestions!
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Old 11-19-2006, 11:53 PM
 
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Barb, PPO never worked for us either; DD just got more and more upset the more I tried to force it. I finally gave up because it was making her even more clingy and she got to where she would wake up crying during her night-time wakings, which she hadn't done before. I think like anything else, it works for some people...but not everyone.

It's probably been 2 months since I read the book and we are still struggling as much as ever. Not to discourage anyone - try everything you can!! We're just out of ideas at this point and sometimes I feel like I am going to die. DD is going to be a year old in 2 weeks, and I probably haven't slept more than 4 hours in a row since before she was born.

Ever-evolving mama to my beautiful Brynn, and my little dimple-face Noah .
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Old 11-20-2006, 05:50 PM
 
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It's probably been 2 months since I read the book and we are still struggling as much as ever. Not to discourage anyone - try everything you can!! We're just out of ideas at this point and sometimes I feel like I am going to die. DD is going to be a year old in 2 weeks, and I probably haven't slept more than 4 hours in a row since before she was born.
Ugh...don't tell me that! Today or tomorrow we are making The Plan. Up until last week I was denying how troublesome the situation is. Now I am ready to tackle this--we've seen some improvement in napping from our pre-NCSS efforts, so something is working!
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Old 11-21-2006, 07:44 PM
 
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I've been working on the NCSS for a few weeks now with my 4.5 mo DD. She was sleeping great, waking up 2 or 3x to nurse and falling right back to sleep. Until the drooling/gnawing on hand (and boob) started when she was about 3 months. Then came rolling over front to back. Then came rolling over back to front. Then came doing the army crawl and push-up/launch self forward. Then came discovering her toes. So much happening to distract her, make her frustrated, and disrupt sleep. With all this, she started waking up constantly at night and being very hard to get to sleep for naps. She wanted to be attached to the boob constantly at night and I just couldn't do the waking up 12+ times a night!
So what has worked for us so far:

Watching more closely for sleepy signals. She pretty much is ready for a nap after two hours and will sleep for two hours.
Back to swaddling. We swaddled her for the first two months and then it seemed like she didn't need it. But now, I swear the hands keep going after she's asleep and she just wakes herself back up.
Bedtime routine: as simple as a bath, pjs, nurse until very drowsy, then rock until asleep and I can put her down. (There is no way she will fall asleep on her own.) The rocking instead of nursing to sleep has helped her sleep longer stretches at night without waking and needing to nurse back to sleep. She is now going down for her first stretch of sleep at night for 4 hours instead of 45 minutes!
Noise: heartbeat or dryer from www.iserenity.com (Thank you so much to whoever it was that posted that link.)
I was getting her to sleep by herself for naps, but then the lack of sleep-nursing made her start to reverse cycle because she was too busy with the world to eat while she was awake. So I figured I would rather hold her for naps during the day when I can read, knit, or NAK then having her nurse all night.
So it hasn't been simple, but I'm relieved that I'm making progress. Sorry this is so long, I just wanted to encourage other sleep-deprived parents!

Emily, cooking allergen free, knitting, reading, gardening Mom to 1 beautiful girl, born in the water on July 1, 2006 Wife to 1 handsome man since September 10, 2005
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Old 11-22-2006, 01:53 PM
 
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Things are going better for us as well, but we've kind of created our own "solution" from a combination of book ideas and just knowing what will or won't work for our daughter.

I'm happy to say she will know disengage from the breast when she's finished nursing, and then I hold her for a few moments before putting her down either in bed or in the pack and play. I've also started denying her the breast if she wakes up less than 3 hours before her previous nursing. Since she is almost one year (in less than 2 weeks!), she's VERY verbal and can understand if I tell her, "no milk now Honey, it's time for sleep." She doesn't necessarily *like* it, but she can understand it.

The things that made the biggest difference for me were:

* No nursing in bed!!!! When she wants to nurse, I get up and go sit in the rocking chair. Sure, it sucks for me, but I find that she sleeps longer this way and that it's easier to get her back to sleep when it's been less than 3 hours since her last nursing.

* Sleeping with a shirt on. I had never done this before, but it really helps to keep the breast less accessible, and less of a temptation.

* Paying attention to when she's done actively nursing, and asking, "Are you finished?" If she is, she will unlatch and rest her head on my chest rather than on my breast.

Oh, she just woke up. Good luck to everyone....keep trying!

Ever-evolving mama to my beautiful Brynn, and my little dimple-face Noah .
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Old 11-24-2006, 01:40 AM
 
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I'm happy to say she will know disengage from the breast when she's finished nursing, and then I hold her for a few moments before putting her down either in bed or in the pack and play.

* Paying attention to when she's done actively nursing, and asking, "Are you finished?" If she is, she will unlatch and rest her head on my chest rather than on my breast.
Was it PPO that helped with that first part? Or did you adopt another technique?? I'd love to hear!!! Also, I canNOT seem to put effort into staying awake at night to tell when DD is finished nursing. So I'm assuming getting up with her, like you do, would be the best answer to that?

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Old 11-24-2006, 10:33 AM
 
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I'm not Amy, but the PPO wasn't decreasing our night nursings. DD would just get mad and wake up fully. The getting up to nurse encouraged her to have a full feeding instead of flutter nursing all night, so it decreased the # of times she's been waking overall. And with a full tummy she is more likely to easily give up the boob and then I rock her back to sleep.

Emily, cooking allergen free, knitting, reading, gardening Mom to 1 beautiful girl, born in the water on July 1, 2006 Wife to 1 handsome man since September 10, 2005
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Old 11-25-2006, 07:21 PM
 
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1babysmom, the PPO never worked for us; like emgremore, it just made her mad and she would wake up almost every time. It just sort of evolved with us because DD would sometimes unlatch herself and roll over when she was ready to. I just started saying, "are you finished?" when she would do it on her own, and then also started asking her that when it seemed like she wasn't actively nursing, and then do a modified PPO, where I would sort of shrug my whole upper arm up so that her head was shifted from my breast to my chest. She seemed OK with that, most times. It has now gotten to the point that whe will either unlatch herself and shift her head up on her own or with the cue words "are you finished?" Sometimes though, she will still want to latch back on, so I just let her do that for another minute or two, and then she's usually ready to let go.

The reason I started getting up out of bed was just to break the bed = nursing association. I have noticed a *big* difference since I have done this; she will now go to sleep at bedtime very easily without nursing in bed. (Which, I am sure you can understand, is a HUGE accomplishment.) We're still working on decreasing the night wakings, but I think that has as much to do with the fact that she's about to turn 1 and she's still not eating solids as anything else. She also nurses in very short spurts during the day, so I know that she's getting at least 50% of her caloric intake at night. There's not a whole lot more i can do though, other than stick a feeding tube down her throat during the daytime!

We kind of stopped worrying so much about the bedtime routine; it didn't seem to make much of a difference to her but then we never had a problem getting her to go to sleep without one. She's usually zonked out by 8:00 whether we do the routine or not.

It's interesting what works for some kids but not others!

Ever-evolving mama to my beautiful Brynn, and my little dimple-face Noah .
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Old 11-25-2006, 07:42 PM
 
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I hadn't thought of breaking the bed=nursing association. I wonder if that would help with our night wakings. It sounds like a lot of work though (getting out of bed 4-8 times a night), so I'll keep that idea on the back burner.

We just got a little stereo for the bedroom, so we are going to start using music at night to see if that helps.
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Old 11-26-2006, 02:15 AM
 
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So Amy, about how long did it take before getting up in the night started making a difference? It's going to take a lot to motivate me to wake up in the night (I always think I will but when it comes down to it I can't get myself to), but if I know it *might* make a difference right away, that might help.

Me (27) DH (30)...9 Years

DD (7) ~ DD (4) ~ DS (3)

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Babies in Heaven...angel.gif 9/04 angel.gif 2/05 angel.gif 3/11 angel.gif 4/11 angel.gif 6/11 angel.gif 11/11 angel.gif 2/12 (along with my tube greensad.gif )

 

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Old 11-26-2006, 08:48 PM
 
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It made a difference right away, especially as far as getting her to sleep at bedtime without nursing. It's also helped *a lot* in terms of getting her to go back to sleep in bed during the non-nursing wake ups. I'm not sure if I was clear about it before (posting with a sick baby, at the in-laws house!) but if she wakes up less than 3 hours from her last nursing, I don't get out of bed at all; I just tell her that it's not time for milk and it's time for sleeping, we'll have milk later, etc. Since she is a year old (or will be on Sunday!!) she can understand me saying those types of things. It doesn't mean she likes it, but she understands it! But since I don't nurse her in bed anymore, she will usually settle back down and go to sleep within 5 minutes or so of waking. Now, if she wakes up later than 3 hours since the last nursing, I *do* get out of bed and nurse her in her rocker. She nurses vigorously for a few minutes, then relaxes, then pops her head off and relaxes on my chest and then I put us both back in bed before she falls asleep again so that she has to get back to sleep in bed without the boob. Make sense? So I'm really only getting up maybe 3 times per night, which is the same as having a newborn. And sometimes I do a diaper change around 2:00am or so, which I think also helps her sleep better til morning.

This week has been a mess though; we're not home, she's been really sick, so all bets are off. I'm really curious to see how things will be when we get back home with a healthy baby.

Keep me updated on how y'all do!

Ever-evolving mama to my beautiful Brynn, and my little dimple-face Noah .
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Old 11-27-2006, 01:26 AM
 
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Awesome! Thanks so much Amy! I think I'll start trying that tonight. Like I said a few posts ago, I'm pretty content with our sleep routine (whatever it might be), so I stopped bothering with the NCSS. But what frustrates me is DD's inability to fall back to sleep on her own, and it'll be better for all 3 of us if she can learn to do so.

Me (27) DH (30)...9 Years

DD (7) ~ DD (4) ~ DS (3)

Praying our April 2013 baby sticks!! joy.gif


Babies in Heaven...angel.gif 9/04 angel.gif 2/05 angel.gif 3/11 angel.gif 4/11 angel.gif 6/11 angel.gif 11/11 angel.gif 2/12 (along with my tube greensad.gif )

 

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Old 11-27-2006, 02:10 PM
 
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oh man, I tried it, but I have no idea how this is going to work (I liked how it did, but I have no idea how I'm going to do it!). I got up with her the first 2 times, but nursed her in bed the last 2. I have so much trouble waking up in the night!

Me (27) DH (30)...9 Years

DD (7) ~ DD (4) ~ DS (3)

Praying our April 2013 baby sticks!! joy.gif


Babies in Heaven...angel.gif 9/04 angel.gif 2/05 angel.gif 3/11 angel.gif 4/11 angel.gif 6/11 angel.gif 11/11 angel.gif 2/12 (along with my tube greensad.gif )

 

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Old 11-28-2006, 10:43 PM
 
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I know, it is hard!!! I have a hard time remembering if it's been 3 hours since she nursed, etc. I am going to stick with it though because I figure even a month of this will pay off, and it's better than another YEAR of waking every 1-2 hours!!

Good luck, whatever you decide to do.

Ever-evolving mama to my beautiful Brynn, and my little dimple-face Noah .
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Old 12-31-2006, 12:48 AM
 
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I'm joining in on the NCSS! I'm reading through now and seeing what we want to try and what we don't. After the New Year, we're going to be back on a routine we started a few months ago and develop a better night time routine. DH is all for it I did a sleep log for three days. I didn't bother at night becase I KNOW he is waking every hour to nurse and I dont feel like losing any more sleep to document what I already know. I did notice his naptimes weren't as long as I thought they were. I hope it helps him.
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