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Co-sleeping and the Family Bed > Parents of crappy sleepers tribe...
formerluddite's Avatar formerluddite 12:08 AM 12-09-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by dynamohumm6 View Post
#1What's the pantley pull off?

My strategies have been:
*wearing a tight fitting nursing tank to bed...this worked for about three days, until he figured out how to break into it.
*giving him the top breast and laying on the other (this resulted in him working diligently at getting his hand between the bed and my chest...the child is nothing if not tenacious).
*hand holding (works for 30 seconds)
*1001 variations of "gentle hands"...basically, when I try to keep him from groping, he gets MAD and tries to hit me instead. It feels like a lose/lose situation, you know? I'm all for "you're hurting mama/we're done", but that results in lots of crying and yelling and tantruming, and a lot of times in the middle of the night I cave and just lay there fuming letting him claw at me instead of dealing with the shrieking. And that's my fault, I need to just be consistant about not letting him nurse if he's doing that.
#2How long, in your opinion, should I keep him off before letting him try again, when he's doing that?

Thanks for the response.
(my #s, bold)

#1. "pantley pull off" is described in the No Cry Sleep Solution (often referred to in posts as NCSS). when baby gets to sleep, but is still attached and not getting milk, you wait for flutter/pause nursing, put pressure under the tongue (soft part behind chin in between jaw bone area), pushing upwards. then slowwwllllly release suction and ease your nipple out, maintaining pressure so baby doesn't suddenly feel a big void where your nipple was. if baby rouses, let him reattatch and try again in a few minutes.

#2. hard to say, nighttime is a tough time to have dicipline. it's been years since dd1 (who would throw a fit if awake and not nursed...). i think she would just stop the clawing once she was deeply enough asleep (?20min) and that's when i'd detatch her. dd2 is more restless, but can seem restlessly half awake, yet when i detach her (break the suction) she often pops off and flings herself over, then lies still, asleep. she's sometimes able to be patted back to sleep, too, and if she cries about not being nursed back to sleep, it ususally only lasts a couple of minutes. not so insistent as dd1 was.

he really sounds like he's uncomfortable/in pain. have you looked into allergy issues? since it's been going on a year, did it start after you started solids? (doing the math...18mos minus a year = 6mos).

maybe try the dicipline part in the daytime first, be consistent about it then, and worry about the nighttime part later since he's probably pretty much asleep and not aware he's doing it. for daytime i'd be "done" until some other activity had taken place. eg stop nursing and get out a toy, do a chore, go for a walk, whatever sorts of things you do in between nursings anyway, probably at least 5 min and preface the next nursing with your expectations "remember, be gentle with mama." and stop again if he does it again.

it's hard to have dicipline associated with nursing, because you want it to be the warm safe haven of your relationship, not something that drives you crazy and filled with conflict.:

dynamohumm6's Avatar dynamohumm6 04:18 PM 12-09-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by formerluddite View Post

it's hard to have dicipline associated with nursing, because you want it to be the warm safe haven of your relationship, not something that drives you crazy and filled with conflict.:
so true, i can't tell you how many tears i've shed over this.

Thanks for the input, I *really* appreciate it.
I haven't ruled out allergies, and yes, I am going to look into that much further.
maymorales's Avatar maymorales 03:14 AM 12-10-2006
My DS does not seem to have any food allergies except regular milk gives him gas. So I give him Lactose-free version. We're not nursing now. But he still doesn't sleep well.
He's active, turning one and pretty big for his age. He naps a little more than an hour twice each day in his crib. But at night, he goes down at around 8:30 and then by 11:30, he's up almost every hour. When we bring him to bed, he's struggling to go back to sleep. Putting him back to the crib only conjurs hysterics.
He has never been a good sleeper since about 9 weeks old. Back then, I was going crazy with a crying baby that can't settle down and woke up every hour. Although he has gotten a little better, I still think his sleep pattern is unhealthy.
Docs don't find anything wrong with him. But he seems so uncomfortable. Plus, we are miserably sleep-deprived. Any tips / suggestions would be much appreciated.
Please, I'm tired of parents who boast about how well their children sleep. I hear one more of those smug "my kids slept through the night since birth" or "the baby sleeps so well I have to wake to feed" comment, I'm going to blow!
This post is so comforting. If any of you have discovered helpful strategies since the origin of this thread, please pass it on. Thanks!:
mom22girls's Avatar mom22girls 10:56 AM 12-10-2006
Can we get a tribal membership card that we can flash when we do something stupid due to sleep deprivation (you know, pouring coffee into Cheerios, placing a phone call to someone, and forget who we're calling while the phone is ringing...)

My 2.5 year old screams things in the night like "I want the blue one." and I have to tell her, "here's the blue one," before she'll settle back. Argh!


-H
maymorales's Avatar maymorales 11:32 PM 12-10-2006
[QUOTE=mom22girls;6727367]Can we get a tribal membership card that we can flash when we do something stupid due to sleep deprivation (you know, pouring coffee into Cheerios, placing a phone call to someone, and forget who we're calling while the phone is ringing...)

I forget where my keys are, pay for grocery and forget the bags, forget a load of laundry at the laundromat or put coins in someone else's machine! If anyone can give me advice on how to transition my ds into his own crib or solutions to help him sleep more peacefully with us (he kicks, turns and struggles to stay in bed with us but cries when he sleeps in his crib), I'd be ever so grateful!:
Ex Libris's Avatar Ex Libris 12:07 AM 12-11-2006
I'd like to join the sleep deprived mamas who do stupid things tribe! Just this week I left my purse in the bathroom at the grocery store, then left it in the car and had to walk back 3 blocks to get it, then lost part of the car seat (the little crotch pad) . . . I wonder what this next week will bring.

I haven't had a full night's sleep since ds was born. He nurses every 2 hours until about 3 am when he latches on and won't let go and wants to change side constantly. I've got permanent nerve damage in one of my arms from nursing with my arm up for 3 years.

AND I've got a groper, too. Doesn't matter that I've said thousands of times "stop digging in mama's shirt." Only difference is that now he repeats it back to me after he's done it.
dynamohumm6's Avatar dynamohumm6 11:19 AM 12-11-2006
Ooooh, a membership card would be wonderful. I've:

-stuck my parking pass in my tape deck in my car, instead of in the compartment above it. I even forced it when met with resisitance.
-found cereal in the fridge and milk in the pantry more than I care to admit.
-forgotten about two dozen english muffins in the toaster after they've popped up
-forgotten to take off my underwear before getting in the shower

all of these things I've blamed on not sleeping.

Anyway...I've decided to cut out dairy and see what happens. DH is skeptical, but I'm willing to try anything. A lot of what I was reading in the dairy allergy behaviour thread in Allergies describes DS quite well. Of course, this week is explained because the poor babe has a cold and can't really breathe and is coughing quite a bit. So he gets a free pass this week.
Sandrine's Avatar Sandrine 12:15 PM 12-11-2006
I don't want to jinx myself but dd1 seems to be on the right road of sleeping thru the night. She just turned 4, so i wonder if that's her magic number.

I'm keeping this magic dust as my other dds don't sleep thru either.

We have gone the dairy-free route before and it didn't help my dds. Hopefully it can help other family with sleep problems.
timneh_mom's Avatar timneh_mom 10:28 PM 12-29-2006
Just bumping this

Anyone else find that too much stimulation makes nights particularly bad? DS actually slept all night about 5 nights in a row, then it was Christmas and it totally messed up his sleep for the next 3 nights in a row!
Ex Libris's Avatar Ex Libris 11:35 AM 12-30-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by timneh_mom View Post
Just bumping this

Anyone else find that too much stimulation makes nights particularly bad?
Yes, for sure!! Christmas was bad for us, too.

But I'm happy to report that ds slept through the night for the first time last night. Woo Hoo! :
Feb2003's Avatar Feb2003 01:20 PM 12-30-2006
not much time...

ds1 is almost 4 and started sleeping better after 3. at 2 he started choosing the mattress on the floor in his room (choice was a fun part of bedtime and we never commented)...well, he'd go back and forth but doesn't co-sleep well since ds2 arrived (ds2 was noisy as a baby and ds1 is noisy when he does wake up).

anyway, ds1 is in own room, but needs dh in there most nights.

ds2 (almost 18 mo) has started sleeping better since I have refused to nurse every 45 min all night (he's pretty mellow and just fussed a little while I sang, patted, etc. until he went back to sleep...not as insistent as ds1 was) he takes a pacifier for sleep and the car and so he has something to suck on to keep him calm...so he's nursing every 3-4 hours instead of every 45 min right now

ds1 just had major surgery and it's completely messed up his sleep and he's high needs/spirited so once he's up...watch out!! he lets everyone know it and has very specific requests, etc. we're hoping his brain works out the problem soon b/c we're falling apart and he has huge red circles under his eyes most days

ANYWAY, I posted mainly to make some suggestions for the 3 yo's who are waking...mine really does need food and drink at night (dentist doesn't agree, but we've had no problems) we keep water in a straw-top cup right next to his bed and sometimes crackers and raisins. He would prefer milk, of course, but most nights were not up for a trip to the kitchen. On nights that he's in there by himself (right across the hall) and sleeps well, we will go in to find the snack gone and the water almost empty. His little face is often hanging off the side of the mattress (it's on the floor) like he fell asleep again eating.

He was a HORRIBLE sleeper and #2 came before he outgrew it...I haven't slept well in about 4 years...it's amazing that we're not more sick since ds1 really doesn't get (need?) much sleep about 8-9 hours...still up at the crack of dawn (usually earlier)...he just needed to outgrow the worst and now sleeps like a dream (does better with someone with him)

hope some of this makes sense!!
Tattiana's Avatar Tattiana 07:42 PM 12-31-2006
My 18 month old DD has always been a TERRIBLE sleeper. I have explored allergies since she started out colicky and we have had several other issues like CONSTANT runny noses and terrible, fitful sleeping, but so far we haven't been able to pinpoint anything. Even allergy meds didn't work so we stopped them. It has been frustrating. Her diet is more like many 6-8 month olds, not an 18 month old because she has reacted to common things like carrots and peas that are in so many things and I am afraid to give her too much of any highly allergic foods like wheat and I refuse to give her dairy (even though I eat some, I noticed that cutting that out of my diet did nothing to help her : ).

I REALLY related to this
Quote:
I'm delirious. He eats plenty during the day, he wants to nurse near constantly at night. I don't mind nursing him during the night - it's the marathon "I'll scream if you remove your nipple from my mouth at any time" crap, and THE GROPING that drives me absolutely NUTS. He can. Not. Nurse. unless he is clawing at my other breast. I can't take it - the groping has been going on for almost a year. Seriously. I've tried every single trick in the book (and I had lots) to get him to stop, and it's impossible. So, night nursing keeps me 100% awake, fighting off his clawing, mauling hands.
I have tried the "Pantley pull-off" but when she is like this, it just doesn't work. I get so frustrated some nights. My back and hips are sore a lot because of trying to stay in some position all night to have her stay latched on. I have scratches on me from the constant clawing and pinching and groping. I am at my wits end with this. This morning, I woke to a nasty pinch to my nip! OUCH! :

I'm always looking for an answer. This is my 4th child and I have never seen anything like this. DH is ADAMANT that there will be no more.
formerluddite's Avatar formerluddite 10:10 PM 12-31-2006
i've been trying a new trick with dd2 (23mos), my current clawer/groper. she's recently become enamored of dolls, so i make sure she cuddles one under her arm when we start nursing. when she starts to go at me i tell her to "tickle millicent, not mama," and she mostly complies.
hrtoe's Avatar hrtoe 10:27 PM 12-31-2006
I am also a member of this tribe. My now 13 month old has been a terrible sleeper since 3 weeks old. He wouldn't nap unless he was ON me when he was that little. Then I started to be able to nurse him to sleep on my bed and leave him, until he woke 45 mins later when I would have to run in and nurse him back to sleep. When he started getting mobile, I put a mattress on the side of our bed with a pack n play blocking the end; make-shift crib on the floor so to speak. He takes naps there and if I can get him to sleep at night before we are ready for bed, he sleeps there for a little while. Same routine though generally - nurse to sleep and go back in 45 mins later. Sometimes I am there for an hour.

He went to one nap a day at 9 months and wakes numerous times a night. I am afraid to get pregnant again and have to figure out how to sleep then...we are going to wait until this summer, so hopefully he will be a little better. I am planning on weaning him somewhere around then.

He's an incredibly active guy during the day too. He doesn't have any food allergies, but he does get gas sometimes at night. He is also worse when teething (and that seems to be a constant). Poor little guy!
Rox5266's Avatar Rox5266 11:25 PM 12-31-2006
Can it be true? My crappy sleeper has only woke me twice the past two nights - TWO DAYS IN A ROW. I won't count my chickens before they'e hatched though, I don't think I'll abdicate myself from this tribe until my ds goes a MONTH without waking my multiple times a night...... :
Tattiana's Avatar Tattiana 05:14 AM 01-01-2007
Quote:
but he does get gas sometimes at night. He is also worse when teething (and that seems to be a constant).
dd still gets gassy at night, sometimes, too. It is frustrating at her age. And I hear you about the teething! My first 3 babies didn't seem to have much issue with teething, but dd will seem to take FOREVER to teethe and then just when you think that things are getting better, it seems to start bugging her again! :
hrtoe's Avatar hrtoe 03:24 PM 01-01-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tattiana View Post
dd still gets gassy at night, sometimes, too. It is frustrating at her age. And I hear you about the teething! My first 3 babies didn't seem to have much issue with teething, but dd will seem to take FOREVER to teethe and then just when you think that things are getting better, it seems to start bugging her again! :
Yeah - he's only just getting his 5th tooth poking through now, and it's been coming (with 3 others that still haven't poked through yet) for about 3 months now (and that is just the part I know about - where it's been just below the skin). Poor guy! I really wish I could do something to help with that.
formerluddite's Avatar formerluddite 06:33 AM 01-22-2007


any new members out there?

are the rest of us too tired to type?

my crappy sleeper#1 (5yo) is sleeping well lately, hardly any nightmares, and even manages to get up and go to the bathroom with verbal coaching "mama's right here, i'll tuck you in when you get back," instead of physical presence lately. i'm very grateful because it's been too cold to get up!

and pseudo crappy sleeper#2 has popped a molar (before her 2nd b'day, not exactly "2 yr molars" for this early teether), and gone back to giving me 4-6 hours uninterrupted, so long as i go to sleep with her at 8ish.

how's everybody doing?
neveryoumindthere's Avatar neveryoumindthere 12:28 PM 01-22-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by formerluddite View Post
are the rest of us too tired to type?
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timneh_mom's Avatar timneh_mom 12:47 PM 01-22-2007
My son (the original crappy sleeper as I started this tribe!) slept for crap the past 3 nights, but last night he gave us 9 hours. The only problem is that I'm going on 38 weeks pregnant and all I want to do is go to bed and sleep. I feel like I could sleep all day and all night and still not feel rested. And DS is just SO active and energetic all day, it makes me tired thinking about it... just not sure what we're going to do once the baby is born. I'm still holding out hope that baby will sleep better than he does...
BrittBBT's Avatar BrittBBT 12:52 PM 01-22-2007
OMG I totally understand. I just posted about getting my 8mo into a crib cuz we're TTC and he's NOT a good sleeper. He's slept thru the night once. I still nurse him about 5 times a night. Plus he tosses and turns and fusses in his sleep....
Enudely's Avatar Enudely 02:36 PM 01-22-2007
my dd gave us a couple good nights last week and it was amazing! The past two nights in a row though, she's been waking up at 3 am wanting to play! : DH and I have just been ignoring her but god I hope this passes soon!
hrtoe's Avatar hrtoe 03:37 PM 01-22-2007
My son is still having issues. He was doing better, but then teething started again in a MAJOR way. He is 14 months old, and 5 new teeth are now poking through (including a molar) and 3 more molars are just under the swollen surface. And his eye teeth are now moving, poor guy! He gets more congested and then doesn't want to nurse (or wants to but it hurts ) so he has a really hard time. I feel so bad for him. Hopefully it will pass soon though and things will get better for a bit.
Dimples_2005's Avatar Dimples_2005 03:58 PM 01-22-2007
My boy still isn't sleeping well. (I first posted nearly 5 months ago!) I have all the books, I've tried all the tricks . . . . I've resigned myself to the fact that he'll sleep when he's ready whether I help him or not. We can't even consider having another child until then. :

I'm tired.
Al Dente's Avatar Al Dente 04:02 PM 01-22-2007
Count me in. Ds has been a terrible sleeper since the beginning. We moved him to his own bed around Christmastime, and he did well initially but now has started waking up 4-6x a night again. When I first nightweaned him (27 mos) he did great until we moved to another state-then he was okay as long as he was sleeping next to me-then I went to WOH and he started waking up more, then the toddler bed has done the trick and I am back to my terrible sleeper.
I really thought it would be better by now!
hrtoe's Avatar hrtoe 04:42 PM 01-22-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimples_2005 View Post
My boy still isn't sleeping well. (I first posted nearly 5 months ago!) I have all the books, I've tried all the tricks . . . . I've resigned myself to the fact that he'll sleep when he's ready whether I help him or not. We can't even consider having another child until then. :

I'm tired.
This is EXACTLY us, except my son is 2 months younger. I can't even handle the thought of the next one yet because of the way he doesn't sleep. I am sorry you are in the same boat as I am.
timneh_mom's Avatar timneh_mom 08:24 PM 01-22-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enudely View Post
my dd gave us a couple good nights last week and it was amazing! The past two nights in a row though, she's been waking up at 3 am wanting to play! : DH and I have just been ignoring her but god I hope this passes soon!
DS used to do that... it went on every night for months and months and months!!! NOTHING helped us except the passage of time. He still wakes up but fortunately he will go back to "sleep" (if you can count kicking the bed, kicking us, yelling and flailing sleep...). I have a friend whose daughter would be awake from 1-5 EVERY SINGLE NIGHT... then she would sleep in LATE, then would take a REALLY long nap late in the afternoon and wash, rinse and repeat.
Enudely's Avatar Enudely 10:32 PM 01-22-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by timneh_mom View Post
DS used to do that... it went on every night for months and months and months!!! NOTHING helped us except the passage of time.
OMG don't tell me that! Months! I don't think I could handle it!
Stinkerbell's Avatar Stinkerbell 02:48 AM 01-24-2007
Checking in! I wil spare you the details but he's 2.5 and we are still putting him down in our bed and staying there until he falls alseep. Then we sneak away and pray for an hour or two before his 1st wake up.

Luckily he;s become easier to get down but sleeping with this child is a nightmare and I was SO totally FOR cosleeping My husband is still in love with the whole thing but I am sleeping on the futon in the playroom most nghts while DH and the babe get my $2500 Select Comfort bed I begged for. Pfffft.

We dragged his toddler bed in ourr room tonight. he screamed about it but maybe he'll start getting used to it.
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