Help Define CIO - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 124 Old 09-13-2006, 01:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok there are varying opinions on what constitutes CIO across MDC.

I think, in the intrest of community and of course, to keep mommas from feeling TOO Judged, we should really come up with a semi solid, kinda jello-ish...well mabe doughy definitition of CIO:

Ok,

Can we all agree that:

Letting child Cry in room alone to train him/her to sleep = Bad

Putting Child down in safe spot *room alone even* to cry for 5 minutes while momma gets brain together and child HAPPENS to fall asleep = Good



Feel free to add...

We REALLY need to clear up the definition around here..
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#2 of 124 Old 09-13-2006, 02:04 AM
 
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IMO ignoring a child's cries on purpose in an attempt to get them to go to sleep or train them to sleep is CIO.
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#3 of 124 Old 09-13-2006, 02:07 AM
 
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Good thread.

Choosing to "let" them cry when you know that doing something would stop it is not okay. (letting the cry when they want to nurse instead of nursing)

-Angela
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#4 of 124 Old 09-13-2006, 02:08 AM
 
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I'm pretty hardcore anti-CIO, so I don't even find your second situation acceptable. I consider CIO to be intentionally failing to immediately and appropriately respond to a child's cries.
I know not everyone agrees, and this is something that, even on MDC, I don't think everyone will ever agree on a definition of.
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#5 of 124 Old 09-13-2006, 02:11 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alegna
Good thread.

Choosing to "let" them cry when you know that doing something would stop it is not okay. (letting the cry when they want to nurse instead of nursing)

-Angela
ya know I agree with this too in many cases as well. (i say many cases cause I know its not always possible to prevent this, especially with more than one child, lol).
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#6 of 124 Old 09-13-2006, 02:16 AM
 
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Letting your baby cry without doing everything you could to help them.
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#7 of 124 Old 09-13-2006, 02:23 AM
 
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I see crying it out as not responding immediately to your child's cries, despite being capable, leaving a child alone in a room to train them to sleep, or any situation where you could soothe the child but are trying to force them self-soothe by letting them cry until they are too tired to make anymore noise. The term 'crying it out' to me means just that.

Letting a child cry for five minutes while you rinse the shampoo out of your hair or wipe your bum is not CIO. Letting a child cry because you want to finish a movie is or are hoping the child will stop before you feel like coming is CIO.

Putting a child down for ten minutes at night, when you're exhausted, sleep-deprived, and going out of your mind so much that you're afraid of losing your patience or temper and because you need a break to recuperate is not CIO. Putting a child down to cry so you can go to sleep or in hopes the child will cry himself to sleep is.

Sometimes, you can't come immediately. Sometimes it's better if you don't come immediately. I can't come if I'm going potty. It's not good for my son to nurse while shampoo drips into his eyes. If your child is cholicy or has been up all night, you're protecting them by taking a break to relax, regain your thoughts, and recharge. Stressed out parents are more likely to be abusive, and I'd rather see a child left alone to cry for five minutes than to be yelled at or even hit because mom has been instructed never to put down a crying baby even when she's going nuts. That's not refusing to respond immediately to a child's cries; that's doing everything you can for the child, then getting out of the room for some peice and quiet so you can come up with a new plan to handle the situation, have a few minutes to ponder what' could be wrong and what other methods could help soothe the child, and calm down so you don't lash out.

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#8 of 124 Old 09-13-2006, 03:14 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonfirefaery
. That's not refusing to respond immediately to a child's cries; that's doing everything you can for the child, then getting out of the room for some peice and quiet so you can come up with a new plan to handle the situation, have a few minutes to ponder what' could be wrong and what other methods could help soothe the child, and calm down so you don't lash out.
Even Dr. Sears has recommended this...and he's hardcore anti-CIO. I have had to do this....it was only for a few mins, but it was that or ds was going to get shaken or slapped if I didn't do it. As soon as I had an inkling of sanity I picked him up again and tried to figure out what was wrong. I was hormonal, sleep deprived, and in no way able to control myself at that moment. To people who say I shouldn't have done that, I ask if the alternative would have been better? That's not CIO at all.

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#9 of 124 Old 09-13-2006, 03:22 AM
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Maybe I am just extraordinarily literal, but I take CIO to mean crying it out. In other words, being left to cry the need for a parent out of you. Leaving a child for a few seconds or minutes when you WANT to return to them and understand that they need you but you need this time to think, pee, poop, eat, find the car keys, find the aloe vera gel or benadryl, or whatever little thing that is happening NOW that you must do NOW even though you really want to also be attending to your child IS NOT CIO. Because, this is not leaving your child to cry it out.

Extremists may dicker this point with me, but literally, I think it means leaving your child to cry their need for their parent out of them. They learn that mama is not coming and so they cry and cry and eventually the cry is out of them and they learn to just deal with being abandoned in their little cage.

And, if someone wants to argue with me that there is something wrong with putting your crying baby down for a few seconds so you can pee with both hands free, then I would like to know what antidepressants you are on, because seriously, I cannot imagine that a sane person can attend immediately to each and every peep their baby makes. And, trying to make others believe that it is CIO and it is wrong to leave your baby for a few moments to attend to one of your own basic needs is just mean and harshly judgemental. Being a mom, especially a new mom, is really hard and you want to hold your baby as much as you can and attend to its every needs, but sometimes you just gotta go poop or get a drink of water. Jeez, back off with the negativity.

Real moms, even die hard anti-CIO advocates like myself, know that there are a few times in your mothering life when you just gotta do something and the baby is crying and you will get to them as soon as you do this very little important thing. That is not CIO; that babe is not being left to cry the need for mom out of him or her.
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#10 of 124 Old 09-13-2006, 03:27 AM
 
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I do agree. Thank you very much for posting this...very eloquently said. Although now that ds is older I take him withme to the potty and let him play while I do business, then we both get to wash lol. Just what I do..I try to minimize oppertunities for crying as much as I can.

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#11 of 124 Old 09-13-2006, 03:30 AM
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And, we need to find more ways to be inclusive about this. Defining CIO in any other way than literally is just going to be divisive. There are bigger fish in the sea to fry than a new MDC mama who wants to put her crying child down to go pee.

Quote:
But, many sleep experts contend that babies need to fall back to sleep on their own. And most of them will eventually have to "cry it out" to do this.
http://www.cyberparent.com/parent/pa...-nighttime.htm

Instead of spending time defining it here, if you really want to do something about it, write a book about it or write a letter to all the baby "experts" who advocate it.
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#12 of 124 Old 09-13-2006, 03:44 AM
 
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I feel like I missed something? was there a post or something that said putting a child down so you can pee is CIO?
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#13 of 124 Old 09-13-2006, 04:14 AM
 
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: I've nursed while sitting on the pot..... : just so dd wouldn't have to cry all alone....
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#14 of 124 Old 09-13-2006, 04:36 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dukeswalker
: I've nursed while sitting on the pot..... : just so dd wouldn't have to cry all alone....
So have I.

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#15 of 124 Old 09-13-2006, 05:10 AM
 
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I feel like I missed something? was there a post or something that said putting a child down so you can pee is CIO?
No, but there was a poster that felt letting a child cry for 5 minutes so mom can get her brain together was unacceptable. Then I stated that I felt it was fine, just like letting baby cry for five minutes to finally go pee is fine with me. I can't understand why 5 minutes of sanity would be unacceptable to someone but that same person would be ok with a 5-minute potty break, and I think the others might be feeling the same. That's all.

I've nursed while on the john before, too...but I don't get up off the john mid-urination when my son wakes up and begins to cry. :P

I agree with the poster that said 'crying it out' is making the child cry the need for the parent right out of them, as in until they forget what it is they wanted, cry themselves to sleep, are just too exhausted to continue, or just acept that the need will be met. That, to me, is crying it out and is bad. Leaving a child for five minutes of peace and quiet so you can calm down and recharge, maybe have a drink of water, then come back and coninue rocking, crooning, and singing, is not CIO.

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#16 of 124 Old 09-13-2006, 05:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatchyMama
I feel like I missed something? was there a post or something that said putting a child down so you can pee is CIO?
Oh, was that not in this thread? It was in the other thread. I'll go find it.

this one talks about needing to put baby down in order to go pee, even if baby is crying. I got the two confused.

And, I agree with the above post. There are times when we are frazzled and tired and angry and upset and we need a moment to ourself. If baby has to cry for a few minutes so we can gather our thoughts and not go insane, that is not CIO.

And I've nursed just about everywhere, including the pot. I got to the point where I could do just about anything one handed. But, I also had a colicky baby who I needed to put down occasionally and she would cry a bit until I came right back. There is a difference.
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#17 of 124 Old 09-13-2006, 07:09 AM
 
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Originally Posted by RockStarMom
I'm pretty hardcore anti-CIO, so I don't even find your second situation acceptable. I consider CIO to be intentionally failing to immediately and appropriately respond to a child's cries.
I know not everyone agrees, and this is something that, even on MDC, I don't think everyone will ever agree on a definition of.
I agree. I know that there are times when a baby's cries get to you. If you have to put your dc down for a minute while you take a breather, then do it, but come right back and comfort them. If this is a daily occurence, there's a problem. I think I've had to put ds down crying maybe twice in his life because I was frustrated, and it's been for 1 or 2 minutes, not 5 or 10. That seems like a very long time for a baby to be crying alone. I've peed many times with ds on the floor, and in the middle of the night, latched on to my boob. I shower at night when dh is home and ds is asleep. I can't always do what I want to do, when I want to do it.

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#18 of 124 Old 09-13-2006, 09:54 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dukeswalker
: I've nursed while sitting on the pot..... : just so dd wouldn't have to cry all alone....
Throw me in here too lol...heck I still do that!

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#19 of 124 Old 09-13-2006, 10:17 AM
 
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I am very defiantly against all CIO. CIO as I see it is leaving your child to cry alone to get them to sleep or longer than just a few minutes while you actively ignore them.

Having more than one small child, inevitably someone will be left crying on an occasion. I think the needs of everyone present at the time need to be assessed and sometimes that means the baby will need to cry while you bandage a cut on another child or change a diaper on someone other than them or hold a bucket while someone gets sick. It happens sometimes, and I don't think that is CIO at all. I have nursed while on the toilet or changing another's diaper, but I physically can't do it all at once every time.

My personal assessment of the baby's crying is:
1. Is the babe in a safe place?
2. Is the babe fed?
3. Is the babe clean and dry?
4. Will I only be a few minutes?

If I can answer yes, then I am OK with him crying for while (a while being <5 minutes) I tend to another child's or my own need (a need meaning something that can not wait.)

ETA: my sanity is a *need*.
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#20 of 124 Old 09-13-2006, 10:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockStarMom
I'm pretty hardcore anti-CIO, so I don't even find your second situation acceptable. I consider CIO to be intentionally failing to immediately and appropriately respond to a child's cries.
I know not everyone agrees, and this is something that, even on MDC, I don't think everyone will ever agree on a definition of.
Sooo..are you saying that I was better off killing my child after letting her cry for 3 hours in arms...with NO Support, NO significant Other to hand her off to, NO HELP whatsoever?

Nice...
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#21 of 124 Old 09-13-2006, 11:01 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dukeswalker
: I've nursed while sitting on the pot..... : just so dd wouldn't have to cry all alone....
Sure, with a small baby that just wants to nurse, of course there's nothing wrong with peeing and nursing. But what about a 16 month old that won't just sit on your lap while you pee? she wants to crawl around the (not childproofed) bathroom and dig in the litter box for "treats". I'd much rather leave her in her room where she is safe and has toys and can hear me talking to her. If she cries, then it'll still be 5 minutes at most and I *know* she doesn't actually feel abandoned.

With our foster daughter (the aforementioned 16-month-old), we are actively teaching her to self-soothe more and fall back to sleep when she wakes up and doesn't need anything (like a bottle or a diaper change). Usually she just fusses - which is very different than a cry - so we let her go at it for 10 minutes. If she escalates or go longer, then we go in and soothe her for a few minutes and leave again. (foster parents aren't allowed to co-sleep).

If this were my forever baby, I may not choose to do this in the way, but she's going to be going to live with a family member soon and I *know* they're going to just let her CIO, so if we can teach her to sleep better through our modified CIO, then she won't have to learn through hardcore CIO.

She knows that we'll usually think to give her teething tabs when she seems to need them, we'll always change her poopy diapers, and we'll give her a bottle when she really wants one.

During the day, she's in the room with one of us almost all the time, but when we think she's up for it, we'll leave her alone to play for as long as she's willing. She needs to learn to be alone for short periods because we have no idea how often that will happen when she leaves us. We have to give her skills that, maybe, our "own" baby wouldn't need at her age.

Doing foster care and having to tread the line between what I think I'd rather do and what I know the babies will experience when they leave me has really made me think long and hard about what I truly find important.
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#22 of 124 Old 09-13-2006, 11:29 AM
 
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I agree. I know that there are times when a baby's cries get to you. If you have to put your dc down for a minute while you take a breather, then do it, but come right back and comfort them. If this is a daily occurence, there's a problem. I think I've had to put ds down crying maybe twice in his life because I was frustrated, and it's been for 1 or 2 minutes, not 5 or 10. That seems like a very long time for a baby to be crying alone. I've peed many times with ds on the floor, and in the middle of the night, latched on to my boob. I shower at night when dh is home and ds is asleep. I can't always do what I want to do, when I want to do it.

I think it is very important for moms to know that it is OK for this to happen...In my dd's 11 months, I have had to do this once. I was sleep deprived, alone for about a week (dh was on business), and hormonal. She was crying and I couldn't take it. I knew I wouldn't physically hurt her, but I wanted to scream at her to stop crying. I'd rather walk out for 2 min and clear my head, than scare her by yelling. I put her in her crib, a safe place, and walked onto the porch to take a deep breath of fresh air. I needed to clear my head. It probably took 2 min, if that, but when I returned, I was ready to care for her in the way that she deserved. I was calm and ready to help her. This happens to even the best moms. We need to realize that this is NOT letting a baby cry it out. I didn't do this to get my baby to stop crying. I knew she'd still be crying when I came back. I did it to calm me down.

As far as showering, etc. I always had dd in the bathroom with me so I could interact with her. Now that she's mobile, she sits in the tub with me. I tried a few times to leave her in the crib with some toys, but I had to jump out of the shower before I was done because she was crying. I am not ok with leaving her to cry so I can shave my legs or wash my hair.

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#23 of 124 Old 09-13-2006, 11:29 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandaora114
Can we all agree that:

Letting child Cry in room alone to train him/her to sleep = Bad

Putting Child down in safe spot *room alone even* to cry for 5 minutes while momma gets brain together and child HAPPENS to fall asleep = Good
Um. Well. I'm not entirely cool with that. It's fine to put down your child & walk away & call for help when you are at breaking pont.... Of course!!!! Let's not have any more Andrea Yates, okay?

And if you are alone & at pre-breaking point & feeling stressed, of course you can put your screaming baby down & walk away & you should not feel guilty. Five minutes is a long time tho- have you ever counted that out with a timer? That's a long time to scream with no answer, ime, unless a mama is in trouble....


................


I know.

I've been there.


.................




Talk to someone close to you. (a family-bed-friendly person, if at all possible) Pm me if you are having trouble connecting with other parents who are in the same boat..... I can be a sounding board, & I might be able to redirect you towards a temporarily more helpful org... depending on the situation of course...

hope that helps a bit anyway. Will be thinking of you...

That is my response to the OP. I'll go back & read the rest now....

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#24 of 124 Old 09-13-2006, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiemum
Um. Well. I'm not entirely cool with that. It's fine to put down your child & walk away & call for help when you are at breaking pont.... Of course!!!! Let's not have any more Andrea Yates, okay?

And if you are alone & at pre-breaking point & feeling stressed, of course you can put your screaming baby down & walk away & you should not feel guilty. Five minutes is a long time tho- have you ever counted that out with a timer? That's a long time to scream with no answer, imo, unless a mama is in serious trouble....


................


I know.

I've been there.


.................



Talk to someone close to you. (a family-bed-friendly person, if at all possible) Pm me if you are having trouble connecting with other parents who are in the same boat..... I can be a sounding board, & I might be able to redirect you towards a different org....

HTH.
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#25 of 124 Old 09-13-2006, 11:45 AM
 
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This has been brought up before in poll form Here
Personally I think that intentionally leaving a child to cry without comforting them in any way for more than 2-3 minutes is CIO. Not saying I haven't done it- but I think situations come up... (ie big brother asks for help and it turns out he's thrown up all over himself and the bathroom) and I do not think it is CIO if you are soothing them in some way- "Mommy's coming baby- I love you and I'll be right there."

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#26 of 124 Old 09-13-2006, 11:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karin95
With our foster daughter (the aforementioned 16-month-old), we are actively teaching her to self-soothe more and fall back to sleep when she wakes up and doesn't need anything (like a bottle or a diaper change). Usually she just fusses - which is very different than a cry - so we let her go at it for 10 minutes. If she escalates or go longer, then we go in and soothe her for a few minutes and leave again. (foster parents aren't allowed to co-sleep).
THIS is not okay IMO. Sorry. I respect that you're trying to do what's best for this child, but IMO "fuss" it out is not ever okay either.

-Angela
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#27 of 124 Old 09-13-2006, 11:48 AM
 
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[quote=aussiemum]And if you are alone & at pre-breaking point & feeling stressed, of course you can put your screaming baby down & walk away & you should not feel guilty. Five minutes is a long time tho- have you ever counted that out with a timer? That's a long time to scream with no answer, ime, unless a mama is in trouble....quote]

That's exactly what I'm thinking. I'm wondering if people are exaggerating saying that they leave the baby for 5 or 10 minutes, because that is a very long time. IME it only literally takes 1 or 2 minutes to leave the room, take a deep breath and walk back in to your crying baby.

CIO is leaving a crying baby hoping that they will comfort themselves. If you've left your baby because you are tired of trying to get them to stop crying... and you leave them long enough that they stop crying, you're baby has just CIO, intentionally or not.

It doesn't make you a bad parent, for sure. No one is perfect. I think the main thing is, is this a habit? Once in a while, like you say aussiemum and others agree, it's happened only a few times in their baby's life. If it's a daily occurence, then there's a problem.

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#28 of 124 Old 09-13-2006, 11:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiemum
And if you are alone & at pre-breaking point & feeling stressed, of course you can put your screaming baby down & walk away & you should not feel guilty. Five minutes is a long time tho- have you ever counted that out with a timer?
Is there actuially a time limit for a mother who feels she may physically harm her child? I'd rather the baby cry for hours than risk a mother who is capable of causing physical harm to her baby going to that child. My advice to anyone who feels they may harm baby...put the baby down somewhere safe, call your mom or a friend, whatever you need to do to calm down, and go back when you no longer feel that you are a danger to the baby.
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#29 of 124 Old 09-13-2006, 12:00 PM
 
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This may stir the pot but I've seen this mentioned around before.

I think that letting your baby cry while you stand there and pat their back/sit nearby in a chair/sing while holding their hand, etc. is CIO.

IMO, refusing to pick up your baby while trying to otherwise comfort them while they're crying in bed is also pat of CIO. Especially if the crying could be helped by holding, rocking, nursing, etc.
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#30 of 124 Old 09-13-2006, 12:01 PM
 
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I have another question to throw in. Is it CIO to let your child cry in their carseat while you are driving down the interstate or stuck in a traffic jam or otherwise cannot get off the road to a safe place to pick up the child?

I have been in that situation before. I talk and coo and sing and do anything
to try to soothe baby while I am driving, but sometimes he ended up crying until I could find a safe place to stop and remove him from his carseat to nurse, cuddle or do whatever he needed to settle down.

OR

What if you have multiple babies and they are all screaming at once? Or older child is sick and you need to attend to their needs now. Before you can get to a baby it falls asleep from screaming. Is that CIO?

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