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#1 of 51 Old 11-24-2006, 02:59 AM - Thread Starter
 
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So,

Elizabeth Pantley (The No Cry Sleep Solution) Says that kids naturally crave an earlier bedtime and longer or more naps. Well, mine are 3 and 17mo. Both have never been very good sleepers. Like 1 hour naps are long and nursing every two hours all night is good compared to the normaly every hour all night....

Know what i mean?

So, i thought - well, maybe they just need to go to bed earlier. But that meant making sure they both nap by 1:30 so they are ready to sleep again at 7:30/8. And THAT meant cutting out ds 2's a.m. nap giving him only one.

So, neither of their sleep habits changed... if anything, they are now waking up btwn 6:45 -7a.m. No longer the wonderful 7:45 i was used to ....

So here i am at the mercy of mothering gurus...

Send your wisdom, suggestions , frustrations and triumphs....



Navae
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#2 of 51 Old 11-24-2006, 03:14 AM - Thread Starter
 
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So it is getting ridiculous....

3 wakings in 3 hours.....

Who wants to wisk me away to the Carribean?:
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#3 of 51 Old 11-24-2006, 03:17 AM
 
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I think that it's absurd that ANYTHING applies to all babies

My dd has always gone to sleep when we do (around midnight) As an infant she NEVER slept as much as "they" said she *should* but she SLEPT. Mostly through the night all the time (by definition a 5 hour stretch)

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#4 of 51 Old 11-24-2006, 03:21 AM
 
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At what age did your older child drop her second nap? For a lot of kids is pretty close to the 17 month age, so depending on your child, you might not have that a lot longer anyway...

But, if a later bedtime worked better for you, then stick with it. Or you could try the Pantley bedtime for a couple of weeks to give it a fair try and give their bodies time to adjust.

Or, would your younger child be able to take a morning nap at 10ish (with the earlier wakeup) and then a second nap later? Some kids can't fall asleep early at night with a late nap, but some don't have a problem. For a while, my DS could wake up from nap at 6 and go to bed at 7:15 without a problem. Then you always have an awake child, though, so that may not be so good for you.

3 wakings in 3 hours?
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#5 of 51 Old 11-24-2006, 03:39 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I guess a lot of it has to so with his CONSTANT nursing! I wish i could just partially night wean him.... I could easily nurse 2 or 3 times at night; that's nothing compared to what i am used to!

I find myself frustrated because i feel this horrible guilt. Like, "You just need to give.... its only 5 min......." So I try to convince myself that i just need to have a better atitude about it - but it doesnt seem to stick- the next time he wakes up i am frustrated all over againl.

I guess the hardest part is the first few hours after they go to bed. I really look forward to that time as a refueling.... I don't like spending it wondering - what's that noise? Is he awake? Will he go back to sleep? Will one wake up the other?

I am pooped just thinking about it.
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#6 of 51 Old 11-24-2006, 04:03 AM
 
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It depends on the child- ds is a night owl just like me. I have tried to wake him up at 6:00 am so that he'll take earlier naps and then go to bed earlier and it never works. If I try to get him to bed before 10 or 11 o'clock he is just restless and fights it. No matter what time he goes to sleep he usually wakes up at 9:00 am. He also sleeps longer stretches if I put him to bed later. Lately he nurses to sleep around midnight and doesn't wake up to nurse until around 6:30am.

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#7 of 51 Old 11-24-2006, 10:54 AM
 
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When my son goes to bed earlier, he wakes up earlier. It's that simple. We don't magically get more hours of sleeping time by putting him to bed earlier.
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#8 of 51 Old 11-24-2006, 12:06 PM
 
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When my son goes to bed earlier, he wakes up earlier. It's that simple. We don't magically get more hours of sleeping time by putting him to bed earlier.

That's the way it is in our house. DD1 prefers a later bedtime which we really like because we can be out and about and not have to be home at a set time for bed.

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#9 of 51 Old 11-24-2006, 12:41 PM
 
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I don't like that book.
My kids go to bed when tired.

~Marie : Mom to DS(11), DS(10), DD(8), DD(4), DD(2), & Happily Married to DH 12 yrs.!
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#10 of 51 Old 11-24-2006, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
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that is really good to hear. I think we started experimenting with earlier bedtimes when ds 1 was about 18 mo. He used to go to bed around 11 but he would get really cranky at about 7 or 8. But when he when to bed that late he would wake btwn 9-10.....ahhh........

this morning ds2 woke at 7. and i was able to stall actually getting up til about 7:15.



is experimentation really the only way to read what would be best for your kids? (Hows that for a really vague statement!?)
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#11 of 51 Old 11-24-2006, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I don't like that book.
My kids go to bed when tired.
when is that? What signs do they show that they are tired?
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#12 of 51 Old 11-24-2006, 01:01 PM
 
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I decided when dd was born that I didn't want to ever fight about sleep (or food) So I don't. For awhile she did take a little nap around 7 or 8. But it was NEVER sleep for the night. Now, the "problem" with the late bedtime is that I don't get that down time at night. She goes to bed when we do. BUT she does sleep in in the morning and I can often get some time there.

Honestly, I never spent a lot of time watching to see if she was tired. I figured if she was tired, she would sleep

-Angela
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#13 of 51 Old 11-24-2006, 01:05 PM
 
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when is that? What signs do they show that they are tired?
Whenever. It could be 8PM, it could be 3AM. Signs include crawling into bed & closing eyes. I'm not being snarky, really...they just have always went ahead & gone to bed when they needed to. Because I don't make a big deal of it I think - if I did have a bedtime I am SURE they'd challenge it & fight me. They know they can stay up, and sometimes do after I go to bed...so they don't care. They also sleep in to whenever they need to.

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#14 of 51 Old 11-24-2006, 01:41 PM
 
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My now 7yo dd always hated sleep and fought bedtime regardless of the time said bedtime was at. We had to physically hold her down when she was little. For us, things got much better when we started putting her to bed real early (read 7pm), since she wasn't overtired, she wasn't fighting as much. Now, she goes to bed without fussing around 7:30pm.

My 18mo ds is easier to take to bed. When he was still having 2 naps a day, he'd wake up at 7, nap from 10 to 11:30, nap again from 1:30 to 2:30 and go down for the night around 7pm (well, you know how that is, nurse every 3 hours throughout the night anyway but in general, he was mostly asleep between 7 and 7).

Now that he's down to 1 nap a day, he has kept the earlier nap and dropped the later one. So his schedule is now: wake up at 6am, nap from 11 to 1, go to bed at 6. He'll fuss around 9pm to nurse and some nights at midnight as well, then will sleep until about 6.

So early bedtimes work really well for my family. It only works for us because we don't mind eating dinner early and not going out after that. Also, I get home from work at 3:20 and my dh is the sahp so we get to see the kids lots even with the early bedtime.

But each kid is different and each family is as well.
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#15 of 51 Old 11-24-2006, 07:49 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I wish it was just as simple as, " well he sleeps betteror later when we do this or that or worse doing this that and the other..." But It isnt! Its one way one day and another the next. Somedays i wonder if it is all in my head.... like, may be i SHOULD just let them crash and rise as needed...

....but i am not sleeping either.....zzz...........zzzzzzzzzzzzz.........
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#16 of 51 Old 11-24-2006, 11:05 PM
 
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You might want to try even earlier than 7:30 or 8...? For us, 8 is a late bedtime around here. My 11-month-old son absolutely needs a 7 p.m. or earlier bedtime. If we put him down much later than 7, he will fight going to sleep like nobody's business, and we end up rocking/soothing him for an hour or so before he finally crashes. If we put him down around 7ish (or even earlier sometimes), he will grab his little blanket, roll over and go right to sleep, happy as a clam.

I don't trust my son to know when he needs to sleep. He's a baby, and it's his nature to want to stay up and play and enjoy our company. If I waited until he actually crashed out and fell asleep on his own, I'd have a miserable, overtired baby on my hands.

Every baby is different of course, but before you give up on the early bedtime idea, try putting your kids to bed even earlier. If it doesn't work, at least you'll have tried, and you can go back to the routine you were using before.
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#17 of 51 Old 11-25-2006, 12:06 AM
 
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My son is 4yrs old, has always been a night owl, just like me and hubby, we have always allowed him to sleep when he is tired, and if he sleeps in, then we allow him to.
Usually he goes to bed around 10pm, and he'll wake up around 10AM, and some day's he is a early sleeper and sleeps at 9pm.
I let him stay up till he is tired, and he tells me when he is tired.
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#18 of 51 Old 11-25-2006, 03:30 AM - Thread Starter
 
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yeah
I wonder if i DO need to try for earlier.... we went out tonight and at about 7:15 he was losing his mind...(but i wasn't!...congratulations to me...)

I thought i would play around with their schedule today... so ds2 took a nap from 9:45 til about 10:20... then both boys napped together from about 2:30 - 3:30....... we went out, stayed out later than normal... and both kids were asleep by 9. though ds1 did take a while...

So.... I am thinking at least my baby craves earlier - i have noticed that he doesn't have that normal fussy time at night because he's sleeping instead...

that IS nice.

So we'll see how tonight pans out. It has been 1hr. and 15 min.... no cries yet.


Oh! But here is something cute! Who knew my dog would solve sleep battles with my 3 yo???? As long as she lays along side him, he falls asleep so easy; even looks forward to it!!
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#19 of 51 Old 11-25-2006, 08:57 AM
 
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For those who let their kids stay up until they are "tired"...how does that actually work if YOU want to go to sleep? I am so not a night person...by 10 pm I can't even see straight.
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#20 of 51 Old 11-25-2006, 10:44 AM
 
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For those who let their kids stay up until they are "tired"...how does that actually work if YOU want to go to sleep? I am so not a night person...by 10 pm I can't even see straight.
Why is tired in quotes? Are you implying they are really not? I go to bed when I want, why does it matter if they're still up? I went to bed last night, for example, with both DD's while the boys stayed up watching movies. So what?

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#21 of 51 Old 11-25-2006, 11:00 AM
 
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I guess I'm a chronic quote-abuser...I didn't mean to imply anything...sheesh.

I see your boys are 8 and 7, so okay, they can stay up on their own. But what if it was your 4yo and 8mo who were still awake. Do you just leave them hanging out on their own and go to sleep if you are tired?

Was this actually an unreasonable question for me to have asked? I am genuinely curious about how it works. DS is only 3 and I personally wouldn't feel comfortable going off to bed and leaving him unsupervised. I was thinking that people who are saying their kids go to sleep when tired either have older kids, or else the parents are more night-owls than I am. Or maybe they have another strategy I haven't thought of. There's no reason for you to get all on my case for asking for more information.
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#22 of 51 Old 11-25-2006, 11:10 AM
 
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I am SO - SOOOOO - NOT a night person! Not at ALL! I am tired by 8! But, to answer your question, if my 4 YO wanted to stay up, yes, that's OK. She has, many times. She just turns the TV off & comes to join me in bed when done. It really does depend on the kid, I guess. I think cuz we have always done it this way, they're used to it & have never abused it or acted in a way when up that would make me question the arrangement. If they were irresponsible out there it WOULD stop. My 8 month old? Of course she cannot stay up alone! If she's nowhere near tired I MUST stay up. Thankfully she's not a night owl either! I apologize if I came across rude, it wasn't intentional. To me, at least, it just really IS that simple. Seeing as you only have a 3 YO DS I can understand your apprehension. I was simply saying what works here...in your situation I would probably just go insane forcing myself to stay up, or sleep on the couch while he plays.

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#23 of 51 Old 11-25-2006, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Yeah, I think the initial confusion regarding bedtimes is more of a baby/toddler/preschool thing. Because it is harder to tell when they need to sleep. Sometimes they will be on mulitple winds - happy and even hyper when they were really tired a couple hours earlier. Other children will be put to bed earlier just cause they are used to it - but really they would be fine for another hour.

sometimes different kids in one home will have different needs... wich makes it so much more exciting...:

**for the record - last night i got the first 3 hours completely uninterupted!!!
but then he was up ever hour and a half.... so a little good and a little not so good...
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#24 of 51 Old 11-25-2006, 02:07 PM
 
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when is that? What signs do they show that they are tired?
My DD is almost 15 months old. Since about 8 months I've been able to identify her being tired when she is 1) cranky and/or not wanting to play anymore and 2) rubbing her eyes. Eye-rubbing is a pretty solid sign of her being tired.

Since I've been able to identify her tired-signs, and also since I shut the nightlight off at night (long story, but I needed it up until then, but it was interrupting her sleep) she's been on a consistent SELF-REGULATED schedule (I stress self-regulated since I've been bashed here in the past for suggesting that she might, like every other human being on the planet, have a schedule) and it's a pretty easy guess when at the same time every night she is cranky and rubbing her eyes - that she's tired.

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For those who let their kids stay up until they are "tired"...how does that actually work if YOU want to go to sleep? I am so not a night person...by 10 pm I can't even see straight.
Yeah, I like to go to bed by 10pm. For the first year of DD's life I just had to deal with it. That's the way it is with babies of course. I'd still have to deal with it today except I got lucky and she seems to like to go to bed at 10pm now too (when she was 6-8 months she went to bed EVERY NIGHT somewhere between 1am and 3am... wow, that was hard!).

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Why is tired in quotes? Are you implying they are really not? I go to bed when I want, why does it matter if they're still up? I went to bed last night, for example, with both DD's while the boys stayed up watching movies. So what?
I can't just plop my 15 month old in front of the TV and go to bed. That would be neglect.

Homeschooling mama to 6 year old DD.

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#25 of 51 Old 11-25-2006, 03:26 PM
 
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I can't just plop my 15 month old in front of the TV and go to bed. That would be neglect.
Hey - if you're accusing me of neglect come right out & say it...if so be prepared for a HELL of a fight!

~Marie : Mom to DS(11), DS(10), DD(8), DD(4), DD(2), & Happily Married to DH 12 yrs.!
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#26 of 51 Old 11-25-2006, 03:35 PM
 
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we have a night owl here, but we are also a family of night owls. dd goes down every night between 2 and 2 30 am and sleeps until 1 or 2. it works for us... i much prefer sleeping in and staying up late to getting up at godawfully early in the morning and daddy works late on some nights so she also gets to spend more time with him this way. whenever i tried to put her down earlier for the night it would always backfire and she would, without fail, wake up at 4 am and refuse to go back to sleep because she wanted to party and then spend the rest of the night waking up every hour to nurse. she just does not work well on an earlier schedule. she likes the one she chose herself. if she goes down at 2 she will wake up 4 times or so to nurse -after one 6 hour chunk with no nursing at all- and sleep for about 11 hours. she takes a 2 to 3 hour nap every afternoon. if i try to put her down earlier she will not nap well either, she will take 15 minute cat naps and be crabby all day.

signs of sleepiness include eyerubbing, sitting quietly and staring (while she will sit and play quietly with her toys she does NOT just sit and stare. she is very busy) she tends to come sit on somones lap when she is sleepy... its one of the only times she is really cuddly. she is always kissy and huggy, but its normally on the go affection not sitting in your lap snuggling affection. she will suddenly start throwing fits over tiny little things... if someone accidentally knocks over her teddy bear its the end of the world and shes sobbing. you really only have to look at her... she gets very sleepy eyes... half closed, a little glazed, its always been one of the easiest ways to tell if she was sleepy.

ds on the other hand was not a night owl. he was asleep every night by 9 and up at 7 or 8 in the morning. he's here on the weekends and is up by no later than 9. while i would love to stick with my normal lazy morning routine i get up at 10 on the weekends to make him breakfast and hang out before dd wakes up. usually during the week i get mommy down time in the morning... i get up an hour or two before dd and read or do something for myself.
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#27 of 51 Old 11-25-2006, 04:28 PM
 
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Hey - if you're accusing me of neglect come right out & say it...if so be prepared for a HELL of a fight!
OK, if you have a 15 month old (or younger) that you are plopping in front of the TV and going to bed, sure, I'll say it: you're being neglectful. Bring it on.

I didn't say that it would be neglectful of me to do it in order to have a fight with you, though. I was just a little surprised about your one-size-fits-all advice, especially in a thread (and board) about children far younger than yours. Most parents here have babies and toddlers.

Homeschooling mama to 6 year old DD.

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#28 of 51 Old 11-25-2006, 04:54 PM
 
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Words fail me, so I'm just gunn'a let it go...good luck to you!

~Marie : Mom to DS(11), DS(10), DD(8), DD(4), DD(2), & Happily Married to DH 12 yrs.!
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#29 of 51 Old 11-25-2006, 08:02 PM - Thread Starter
 
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OK, if you have a 15 month old (or younger) that you are plopping in front of the TV and going to bed, sure, I'll say it: you're being neglectful. Bring it on.

I didn't say that it would be neglectful of me to do it in order to have a fight with you, though. I was just a little surprised about your one-size-fits-all advice, especially in a thread (and board) about children far younger than yours. Most parents here have babies and toddlers.
To claim that another mom is being neglectful is really harsh - especially here on mothering... However it's true; this thread as mentioned earlier was intended to help us figure out bedtimes for the much younger kids....

I think it would benefit us all to stick to the topic at hand rather than use a forum to dish it out.

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#30 of 51 Old 11-25-2006, 08:11 PM
 
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My son has always had a routine in the evening... his bedtime is usually between 7.30-8.00pm. Would he stay up later if allowed (I can't think of a better word at the moment) to? Sure, he'd want to sit and watch the Cartoon Channel until goodness knows what time

But I have to get up at 6am every morning for work, so physically, I just couldn't do a stay up until 11pm-12pm every night. He's 2.5 yrs old.
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