Could you be friends with someone who CIO? - Page 4 - Mothering Forums
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Co-sleeping and the Family Bed > Could you be friends with someone who CIO?
Barb36's Avatar Barb36 04:39 AM 01-24-2007
I agree with what the pp has said here...CIO it is a very different issue than, say, cloth diapering (although I think it's really important to do!). I have three friends who did CIO and I really think that they didn't feel they could manage sleepless nights anymore. I'm an older mom (as are they) and sleep is really different in your late 30s and 40s...it's much more delicate and much more necessary to function! Of course, not for everyone but it seems to be a trend among the women I know.

Anyway, I agree totally that CIO is harmful and shouldn't be done but I also understand the kind of strain that some of these moms are under who choose it. I guess for me it depends on the reasoning behind the decision to some extent...it still makes me cringe to imagine it and I feel terribly for the babies but it gives me some compassion for the mother when I understand that she feels pressed against the wall. I do have one friend who subscribed to HSHHC and it just fit her personality to have things routine down to the minute...I think it's insane but that's her personality.

I dunno...I guess for me keeping or ending the friendship would be question based on the individual relationship and all it's complexities.

wannabe's Avatar wannabe 04:33 PM 01-24-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katielady View Post
But for me, the CIO thing is a moral issue that's fundamental to one's core values, not just one of many mundane parenting choices.
I agree. I have friends who do all sorts of things differently to me and who have all sorts of different views and practices. But I have no racist friends, no child abusers, etc. They can be Republican, but if they think of beggars as filthy dropouts who should be shot, then they're not my friend.
Symbal's Avatar Symbal 10:00 PM 01-24-2007
My Mom did that. DP's cousin did that. I hated it. CIo seemed unnatural to me from the start.

When I was younger, I was put in charge of watching a three month old while his mama snuck a quick nap. I had to have been about twelve. When the baby cried, I picked him up and carried him. I rarely put him back down, rather he slept a lot better when with me. His mother came back at me two days later, angrier than a bear, accusing me of 'spoiling' him when I picked him up when he cried. She had used the CIO approach for his first days of life, and now thought I had 'spoiled' him because I responded to his needs? I asked he why he was 'spoiled' if I merely responded to his need for human touch? She claimed he was manipulating me to get attention. : I told her (at twelve!) that babies don't understand the very concept of manipulation, and that I was sorry for her son. She also parented a little girl with musclar distrophy and mental retardation.

That entire experience had put a very sour taste in my mouth for CIO parenting.
smallmama's Avatar smallmama 11:13 AM 01-25-2007
Yes, I have friends who CIO. It's too much a sensitive subject - we don't talk about it. I also have friends who don't BF. They know I do and that it's important to me, but they make their own decisions and I try to respect that.
momuveight2B's Avatar momuveight2B 12:06 PM 01-25-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyMarie View Post
I'm a co-sleeping, baby-wearing Republican ~ and I'm even friends with lots of Democrats. ?
Me too! What's wrong with being Republican: ? No, don't answer and divert the thread.

I don't let my kids CIO and I don't let adults CIO either. I have worked in hospitals and nursing homes with people of all ages and everyone from cradle to grave has nighttime needs. If we treated people in institutions the way babies are treated in private homes it would be abuse. When there is a need the only morally responsible & compassionate thing to do is to respond.

I have known moms who use CIO, usually I have met them in playgroups or whatever but we don't pursue the friendship further. It is usually not the only significant difference in parenting styles. I am pretty obviously a hippy so they know I'm weird and if they aren't of that mindset then they are friendly but not friends KWIM. I am not against the friendship but it just never develops.
Katielady's Avatar Katielady 12:19 PM 01-25-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by momuveight2B View Post
Me too! What's wrong with being Republican: ? No, don't answer and divert the thread.

I don't let my kids CIO and I don't let adults CIO either. I have worked in hospitals and nursing homes with people of all ages and everyone from cradle to grave has nighttime needs. If we treated people in institutions the way babies are treated in private homes it would be abuse. When there is a need the only morally responsible & compassionate thing to do is to respond.
great point. I said something along these lines to DH when he was trying to get me to respond less to DS in the night. He was like, "I think you should only go in there if he's SCREAMING." First I told him how proud I am that I'd learned DS's precry cues and could tell them apart from sleep noises, so that he *never* ends up "screaming," or crying at all. And then I said, "What if you were bedridden with four broken limbs and sleeping in another room, and for half an hour you were calling out to me asking for some food, just saying "hey. hey there. could I have an apple?" And I could hear you, but waited until you were screaming at the top of your lungs to come in. Don't you think that would have a bad effect on our relationship?" He didn't have much to say after that. Heh.

I can't imagine not responding to my son's "hey. hey mom?" noises. And I love that DS knows I'll always come.
quinbearzmama's Avatar quinbearzmama 01:15 PM 01-25-2007
I do have a few friends who let their babies CIO. They aren't my closest friends, but they are friends who have known me for years and years- way before any of us thought about becoming parents. We are spread all over the country, so they aren't friends that I see much at all and perhaps that's why we are still able to stay in touch and be friends. (I find that the local friends I have are people who do share my parenting values.) We are aware that we have different approaches to parenting and haven't discussed our views beyond establishing that we respect one another's right to make our own choices. Like another pp said, it's a sensitive area. However, I do like the fact that I have people in my life- if only on the periphery- who have known me for sometime and are a part of my history. I know that my parenting friends have become a part of that story as well...So, do I agree with the choices that these friends have made? No. Do I feel as though the peaceful approach I am taking to parenting can better the world? Absolutely. But I'm not going to cut people out of my life simply because they are making different choices. (but secretly, do I wish they could experience the satisfaction of responding to their children's needs- OH YEAH!)
Heffernhyphen's Avatar Heffernhyphen 02:20 PM 01-25-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by TxMominCT View Post
. . . two of my good friends are baby wisers. They think it's so sad that I am so sleep deprived. I don't know what to tell them.
Tell them that sleep deprivation is a short term problem, unlike those that can be a result of letting a baby CIO.
moonfirefaery's Avatar moonfirefaery 02:38 PM 01-25-2007
It's not about differing views. It's about their parenting in a way that some of us feel is abusive. If you don't understand why that changes a friendship and makes it hard to feel close to and understand someone, then I really don't know what to say.
whateverdidiwants's Avatar whateverdidiwants 03:19 PM 01-25-2007
I couldn't, especially if they let their child CIO when I'm around (especially with my dd). Like some of the previous posters, I go by what I call the "Bedridden Alzheimers Grandma Rule" - that if you wouldn't do it to grandma, you shouldn't do it to your baby. I have 2 relatives who are currently living with Alzheimers, and I've seen firsthand where the toddlers in the family get chastised much more readily (and harshly) than the elderly relative for doing the exactly the same thing. It's crazy.
MAMom's Avatar MAMom 03:30 PM 01-25-2007
I have phased out some friendships over parenting styles....CIO, spanking and other undesireable behaviors.
formerluddite's Avatar formerluddite 05:14 PM 01-25-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Symbal View Post
When I was younger, I was put in charge of watching a three month old while his mama snuck a quick nap. I had to have been about twelve. When the baby cried, I picked him up and carried him. I rarely put him back down, rather he slept a lot better when with me. His mother came back at me two days later, angrier than a bear, accusing me of 'spoiling' him when I picked him up when he cried. She had used the CIO approach for his first days of life, and now thought I had 'spoiled' him because I responded to his needs? I asked he why he was 'spoiled' if I merely responded to his need for human touch? She claimed he was manipulating me to get attention. : I told her (at twelve!) that babies don't understand the very concept of manipulation, and that I was sorry for her son. She also parented a little girl with musclar distrophy and mental retardation.
wow! great for you to stand up to an adult (and employer) like that at 12!
dlwdmw's Avatar dlwdmw 05:43 PM 01-25-2007
I'm friends with lots of people who have different parenting styles. I don't want them judging me and so I try not to judge them. (Or if I do, it's only in my head... )
2mama's Avatar 2mama 12:55 AM 01-26-2007
There must be qualities in her that your adore otherwise you wouldn't be friends. In any real friendship there are going to be things that you don't like either. I would just let it go. All of your conversations don't relove around it, so unless she asks for help stick to neutral grouds.
Barb36's Avatar Barb36 01:21 AM 01-26-2007
Wise advise from the pp. One day, these issues will be a thing of the past...it would be a shame if you later regreted losing the friendship.
moonfirefaery's Avatar moonfirefaery 10:32 PM 01-26-2007
No, they won't be a thing of the past. The child will have to live with the effects forever. Children are also likely to mirror their parents' parenting, because they are such influencial role models. Therefore, their grandchildren are more likely to be raised in a similar manner, and then you have to continue to be uncomfortable and alarmed about that. I can see a conversation between my friend and I when she is a grandmother, where she tells me that her daughter's baby won't sleep at night so she recommended just letting them cry like she did. I can see her on the phone with her son, telling him to just let the baby cry; she did it, and her babies were 'fine.' That's generally what happens, unless enlightenment dawns upon them. I think our children feel the effects of our parenting forever, and unless someone decides to change their parenting style and their views on their whole parent philsophy, it doesn't become a thing of the past. Crying it out isn't just about sleep-training; most people do it to teach their baby to be independant, not to rely on them, and that basically mommy has needs, too and so on. That's a precursor to, I think, a lot of other parenting practices that are unresponsive.
moonfirefaery's Avatar moonfirefaery 12:57 AM 01-27-2007
It's a difference of experiences, because most of the people I meet say they are, primarly, doing it to teach their child to sleep but make other comments related to teaching them to be independant and not reliant on the parent, teaching them to meet their own needs, etc. I do agree there are some for whom it is just sleep training, but for others it's about more than that. I know some of them, and they do it just kind of...well, to teach the kid their place, and they make that very clear when talking about it.
Barb36's Avatar Barb36 01:37 AM 01-27-2007
And in that case one has to wonder how such a friendship ever evolved with such drastically different values.

Most of the people I know who did CIO also are extremely loving parents who felt they had to sleep train to survive...and they thought it was in the best interests of their children. In every other way, they are very attached and attentive parents. It's just that one area where there seems to be a disconnect.

The issue the pp mentions about indepence and self-reliance is totally foreign to me...I have no friends (CIO folks and not) who have this kind of orientation toward parenting. I doubt I could be friends with someone who believed this was beneficial to their children. And, I agree entirely that this kind of parenting leads to long term problems and it would probably be impossible for me to overlook that.
moonfirefaery's Avatar moonfirefaery 02:02 AM 01-27-2007
Quote:
And in that case one has to wonder how such a friendship ever evolved with such drastically different values.
Exactly. It does make me question the relationship, because I no longer feel like I know that person and am confused how we became friends with such different values...but I guess it's because you don't really talk about your parenting views before you're a parent. I sure didn't when I was 15. Developing a parenting philosophy and discussing it with my friends was the last thing on my mind...and yet CIO never crossed my mind back then. I guess I just assumed we all felt the same, since we got on so well...and now some of the things my friends say just break my heart.

I have met people who believe they -must- sleep train their child and are doing what is best, and they are still wonderful, loving parents who do believe in putting their kids first and meeting their needs and so on. But most of the people I know who do it do make comments about other things that are even more concerning; it's abundantly clear that it's not just about training their kid but getting time to themselves at night and just...lots of other issues. I am not saying that all parents who CIO are like this, only that most of the people I encounter make statements that are related to basically teaching the child their place.
gringacely's Avatar gringacely 12:13 AM 01-28-2007
I do have friends who let their infants CIO. Although I don't agree with it, I don't think that it is my place to judge them about it. Some of the things I do with my kids (extended breastfeeding, etc) they may have a hard time with. I think most of us are doing the best we can.
Nazsmum's Avatar Nazsmum 05:26 PM 01-28-2007
You should stay friends. I have very few! If I had a friend that disagreed with me so what? You sleep your way and she can sleep hers. If you are good friends you will surive anything.
Lady Lilya's Avatar Lady Lilya 05:53 PM 01-29-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyMarie
-Knowing alternatives: she knows alternatives and says that "if a baby is fed and dry there's no reason they shouldn't lay down and go to sleep. A couple of pats on his back and that's it. It worked when I was babysitting and they were fine." And while she's gung-ho to read the pro-CIO book she refuses to read any alternative books - I'm simply HOPING that she'll read the links I sent her.
Can you give me those links?

I never really thought about this topic before. I am about 3 months pregnant now. I always figured I would go with instinct. I figured that if the baby seemed to cry a lot I would have to figure out what is wrong. I couldn't imagine leaving the baby for hours crying. I also don't know how fast I should come running.

My intent was for the baby not to be sleeping in a room by himself where he couldn't see me. Wherever in the house I am doing something, that is where I would bring him. My mother did that, and we learned to sleep in any sort of noise and commotion

I would love to read the opinions of others about this. It has been almost 20 years since I have been around a baby, so I am all guesses at this point.

------

To answer the OP's question.....my beliefs are very abnormal among people I know. For the vast majority of my beliefs, I know nobody who shares them. Sometimes it is hard for me not to be disrespectful to people who are doing something I think is horrible, but in general it is just something I am used to.

I would LIKE to make friends who are sympathetic to my ways. I am so glad to have found this place.

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Parents' rights to parent as they choose is a VERY big issue to me. I wouldn't like to think of myself disrespecting another parent's choices. I think those choices are so valuable.

On the other hand, I think we have a responsibility to guide the growth of our communities by showing our approval and disapproval for different behaviors. Otherwise, we let the mainstream media and the public education system determine the future of our culture and community. If people applied more scolding and shunning, maybe the central authorities would have to apply less force (ie: prison).

If I were in that situation, I think I would make my objections clear, and make clear that there are also consequences, such as not doing certain things together. That seems the best way to guide good behavior.

------

At this point my experience with this issue has been with a cat.

We adopted Enki at the age of 7 weeks. It was our intention to co-sleep with him, as we did with out other cat, aged 11 at the time (almost 14 now). But, since a 7-week old cat has full function of his body, he wouldn't sit still. All night he was sticking his paws in our eyes and noses and stuff like that. We seriously couldn't get any sleep.

By this time, our older cat transfered herself to the couch to get away from him. We tried putting him to sleep in several places, but he was always back playing with our faces. So, we tried putting him out of the bedroom and closing the door. We figured he then still had access to food and water and kitty litter, and nice sleeping options -- just not us.

Well, he sat outside the door and cried all night. Every time I checked on him, he was in a good mood and happy to see me --not the slightest bit stressed or upset. He just wanted to come in with us.

Both of us worked full time. We weren't getting much sleep like this either, so we locked him in the bathroom with the kitty litter and his own food and water (the older cat preferred to go to the toilet outside via the cat door). We could still hear him crying, but at least we could sleep.

I felt SOOOOO guilty. I thought we were traumatizing him. But, each morning he was cheerful and happy. I thought he would hate the bathroom, but he came to love it. Every night, we first tried him in bed, then outside the bedroom door, then finally the bathroom. It took several weeks before he stopped screaming all night. He was very hoarse by that time.

After a few weeks of this, he was perfectly fine to roam the house freely at night. He mostly didn't come in the bed, but occasionally did sleep on the bottom.

The only time after that we had an issue was the times we took them both with us on vacation to my parents' country house. Then, he would cry unless he could be in the bed with us. He still disturbed us a bit, but was much better than when he was tiny.

As bad as I felt about locking him in the bathroom all night, he didn't seem any worse for the wear. He was very attached to both of us -- especially my husband. He rode on my husband's shoulders all the time. If my husband would leave the house, he would scream. Then I would speak to him and hold him and he was comforted and went back about his business.

We were very sad to lose him at the age of 2 to a heart defect.

Of course there are many differences between Enki and a baby. (For one, Enki never seemed to sleep when he was little. I hear babies sleep a lot.) Cats are able, after 6 weeks of age, to be left unattended. We left him alone all day with the other cat, so why couldn't he be without us at night? Not the same as a baby at all. I don't intend for my baby to be alone EVER, unless he is sleeping and I walk into the other room for something.
Lady Lilya's Avatar Lady Lilya 06:02 PM 01-29-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by formerluddite View Post
she sounds very defensive at this point; remember being pregnant and hormonal and freaking out at the realization that life as you know it is going to end? and everyone asking "is this your first baby?" and when you say yes they start unloading advice? she may be trying to keep a sense of control. detached parenting practices always promise parental control, which is very reassuring when you're afraid of the unknown.
This sounds to me like a very wise analysis.
Hoopin' Mama 06:33 PM 01-29-2007
I would stick around. She is speaking as a woman who does not know what it is like to hold her newborn in her arms. To have a feeling of love and protectiveness come over her that can't be described in words.

Right now, I would be more concerned about the fact that she is not trying to respect your parenting choices too much.
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