Is this really how they do it. - Page 3 - Mothering Forums
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Co-sleeping and the Family Bed > Is this really how they do it.
cheygirl's Avatar cheygirl 03:09 AM 11-21-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eben'sMama View Post


I can't take these CIO threads. They just hurt my heart.
I"m feeling the same way Eben'sMama. Don't think I can read any more of these threads. The crib bumper story just did me in. : I'm going to bed to cuddle with my baby.

Breastfeeding Insomniac's Avatar Breastfeeding Insomniac 04:52 AM 11-21-2007
It truly makes me so sad that MD's give this advice. Even sadder that moms listen to it. I believe in responding to all of their needs and this is what I encourage when working w/ new parents.
milliegirl's Avatar milliegirl 12:22 AM 11-22-2007
Ugh, CIO just makes me sick to my stomach. Literally, I get a knot in my stomach just thinking about it. I cannot understand it, and don't understand why it isn't considered child abuse (or at least neglect). I've heard so many people *brag* about it - like it is some badge of honor, like they *won* the *battle* with their LO. You would have to hold me down to keep me from responding to my DD when she is upset. It is just primal and instinctive. Funny thing is, there is so much emphasis on teaching babies (not just kids, but BABIES) to be *independent*, and my DD at 1 y/o is very outgoing and independent BECAUSE she is secure, attached and knows Mama is responsive to her needs. I wish ppl understood that CIO has the opposite effect :

OK, stepping off my soapbox now. Guess this touched a nerve
locksmama's Avatar locksmama 01:41 AM 11-22-2007
Even though we are having our issues with co-sleeping I wouldn't trade cuddling her for the world. That is the hard thing to understand if you've never done it. You truly don't know what you are missing...it's sad. I don't think folks get that parenting is a nighttime and daytime job just like the Sears say. People want to stop parenting at bedtime and I understand why, but most of the time the right thing is the harder thing--but with the greatest rewards.
I finally got my last free issue of Parents mag and there was an article in there on co-sleeping that was a couple who co-slept but couldn't get the kid out of the bed . The author mentioned Dr. Sears and made him sound like an idiot. The article ended with co-sleeping in a good light after downing it the whole time. There was,of course, a box with all the scary co-sleeping stats from the AAP warning people not to do it. It pissed me off so bad. It made me so happy that I'm done getting it. It's like a mouthpiece for the AAP and they never have anything good to say about AP practices if and when they actually cover them. It makes me mad that they are misinforming everyone so badly. Of course, if you look at their ads you can see why they advocate what they do. Its simply and infuriating mag!
::::deep breath:::
Our ped was in great light for me until he addressed some of my questions with CIO answers. I just ignore that advice. He's cool with my ECing as she has pooped in her potty right in front of him, but he's off with the sleep thing!
I wish I could find a ped that was a Dr. Sears!!
Fuamami's Avatar Fuamami 02:10 AM 11-22-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by seoul_mama View Post
Thanks for this gaialice. I've been trying to figure this out and perhaps you have a better understanding of this... that is, what is the benefit of cio? It's clear, for instance, that major corps like nestle campaign aggressively to discourage women from bf, in order for the corps to make $$$$. So who is it that's making money off of cio? Here's the thing... I step back and REALLY look at this question and one possible reason comes to mind. Simply, in a capitalistic society, every individual is responsible for his/her fate. Therefore, if you're sleep deprived bc of your baby, then you're not at the top of your game which, in turn, might lead to loss of job, loss of promotions, etc... So then cio is seen as helping parents to sleep so that they can be on top of their game. But then I think... this makes absolutely NO sense! While there might be long stretches of all-nighters, I still think I get more sleep than the average cio family... am I wrong?
I've wondered this myself. My ped always tells me that I should sleep-train, and that I'll be sorry. I wonder if it's because he's worried about children's safety? Maybe moms whose children won't sleep snap and beat them?

But also, he has children the same age as mine, and a lot of times I wonder if he just wants to justify what his family does.

As far as CIO goes, I agree it destroys children's trust. I've watched friend's kids who were CIOed, and they both were so freaked out about sleep. My kids have always napped and started the night in cribs, and I have always been able to lay them down in there. Even if they weren't sleepy, if I needed to go deal with a crisis, I could stick them in there and they'd be totally happy with it for a few minutes at least. Not so for CIO babies, because they're so afraid of being abandoned.
christy005's Avatar christy005 02:42 AM 11-22-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruthla View Post
Of course they're not crying alone in the dark- in a room with a nightlight! And how can they be "alone" in a cribful of cuddly toys? [/sacrasm]

At least the dr recomends checking them after 2 minutes, and then every 30 thereafter, to minimize the chance of the parents missing something seriously wrong with the baby.

I remember an aquaintance telling me about letting her 5mo baby cry for 2+ hours completely alone, and how he only cried an hour the 2nd and 30 minutes the 3rd before he finally gave up and turned to his crib bumper for comfort instead of his mother. And how he didn't sleep the whole week they were out of town because they didn't pack the crib bumper. At age 4 he still took the bumper w/ him everywhere, and still slept w/it every night at age 6. She did NOT see the connection between CIO and his obsession w/ this object.
that's just so so sad that poor little guy..:
macca's Avatar macca 03:39 AM 11-22-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwylde View Post
I can barely even talk to other mothers with young children (especially ones with little bitty babies) anymore as all the talk of CIO, baby training and other things foreign to me just make me feel ill. It seems to be all they talk about; makes me wonder if they really are secure in their choices..
I agree... it's really hard sometimes, especially because IRL, you can't say anything in opposition to CIO without coming across as the big bad judgmental meanie who's not respecting what "works for their families"
Magali's Avatar Magali 06:02 PM 11-23-2007
When it gets rough for me...like on certain nights when I really want my alone time...and ds is wide awake...instead of putting him in another room and letting him scream, I try to think that someday he is going to be 16 years old and won't want to cuddle with me at all. Someday I'm sure I'll look back and be happy for all the time we spent together nursing and cuddling.
lovingmykids's Avatar lovingmykids 12:01 AM 11-24-2007
I cannot imagine being able to sit and listen to my baby cry. It would be heartbreaking!
Kimono's Avatar Kimono 03:41 PM 11-24-2007
You'd think that with babies protesting so much, parents would begin to understand that babies are biologically wired to seek proximity to a parent at night. It's not all about hunger. They don't know they are safe in a house. For all they know, they are in danger from predators, as would have been true for any baby sleeping alone for most of history. Our modern babies still have stone age brains in many ways.
macca's Avatar macca 02:26 AM 11-25-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kate's Mommy View Post
You'd think that with babies protesting so much, parents would begin to understand that babies are biologically wired to seek proximity to a parent at night. It's not all about hunger. They don't know they are safe in a house. For all they know, they are in danger from predators, as would have been true for any baby sleeping alone for most of history. Our modern babies still have stone age brains in many ways.
:

But the problem is, the mainstream advice, which is repeated ad nauseum to new parents, is all about the importance of teaching baby to "self-settle" which is really nothing more than teaching baby that no one will respond to your cries, so don't bother.

Oh and every magazine and book out there has ominous warnings about allowing baby to fall asleep while breastfeeding or being cuddled. Because heaven forbid a baby associates nurturing and parental love with sleep! Best to keep it as lonely and unpleasant as possible :
chumani's Avatar chumani 02:55 AM 11-25-2007
When I was a new mama to my first babe my dad was going on and on about letting her cry it out, he talked about how he would hold my mom back from going to her babies, and that crying is good for the lungs etc., fortunately I had just read a great comeback and he hasn't said anything since (6 babies later) I told him "crying is as good for the lungs as bleeding is for the veins". I haven't heard anything about cio from them since.

I was also at a baby shower a couple years ago where the women were talking about co-sleeping and one of them had seen on some morning news program that supposedly, 25% of sids babies died co-sleeping everyone started talking about how they would never sleep with their babies because of that until I asked them where they thought the other 75% died, most likely in their cribs!

Our 11, 9, 7 and 5yo still come in occasionally with a bad dream and always know that they are welcome to wake us for something they need. Our 3 and 1yo of course are still co-sleeping. I am so grateful to see how meeting our children's needs has made them confident and independent. I am also glad to see that my 11yo hasn't followed her peers in attitude toward her uss. She still likes us unlike how some of her acquaintances feel toward their parents.

I try to be respectful of others but am always firm in conversation about my stance on co-sleeping and meeting my babies/childrens needs.

Sarah
PrennaMama's Avatar PrennaMama 07:12 PM 11-25-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by tubulidentata2 View Post
I have mainstream friends who are otherwise great parents, yet somehow are not bothered by CIO. They casually mention that it only took 45 minutes the first night, and then only 5 or so thereafter. Forty-five seems to be the magic number, perhaps how long it takes to alter the baby's brain . Unfortunately, they now have toddlers who go to sleep far more easily than mine does, so my leading by example isn't doing much good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macca View Post
It's really quite surprising that CIO isn't actually controversial at all for many people. It's not viewed as a last-resort, desperate measure (in which case I still don't agree with it, but can empathize, I suppose) - it's viewed as necessary "training" to ensure babies are able to "put themselves to sleep" and "self-settle" etc etc

:
CIO advocates are just weird seriously... wacky in the brain... to deny one's most basic instincts, and not go to the child one has birthed from her own body when that child is clearly showing need... insane... seriously nuts. "Well it really sucked, and it was hard, and I cried all night myself and my dh held me while I cried and helped keep me from running in... but we made it... It took everything I had not to run it to him as he screamed, and it took a few days... Now why is Jr. so angry and prone to total tantrums so often as he approaches toddler-hood? Why does he ignore me when I am talking to him? Huh... I just don't get it." Seriously, just a snap-shot of a real conversation with a formerly close friend.:

I have had a couple of friendships end because of the CIO myth; I cannot condone that kind of ignorance. I can't keep my mouth shut... literally, I sit with my mouth open staring in shock and horror when people tell me of their Victorious CIO Plan, and regale the agony and effectiveness of this "method" (ummm, torture?)... Ugh! :

Call me judgemental... in this case I am.: But save for the rare instance when a parent is so close to losing it that they are desperate and have no option but to put up their hands and walk away for a moment rather than making an unfortunate decision to the detriment of her child... there is no reason anyone (including my pediatritian FIL) can give me that will ever justify CIO.

Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.
PhillyMama's Avatar PhillyMama 07:20 PM 11-25-2007
I am so glad to have found this site.

In my family, I am considered a "freak" because we co-sleep and my 21-mo-old is still bf-ing.
My SIL had a baby in August and she had that poor boy on such a tight schedule (because she "has a life" - her words) that he is always crying and can be hard to soothe. Once I was holding him, trying to calm him and he started to root on my shirt. I told SIL he was hungry and she said "no he can't be he has 20 minutes until his next meal" (he's formula fed). I was sooooo tempted to pop him on and feed him but she would've been horrified.
They also CIO at night and I make sure I leave their house before he goes to bed because I can't stand to be there. It's akin to neglect, for me.
Oh, this SIL also had no idea that babies go through 'growth spurts' and thought he was just "a little pig" (her words again). I've come very very close to asking why on earth she even had a baby since she does after all "have a life" but have bitten my tongue for the sake of family harmony.

Sigh.
heidirk's Avatar heidirk 07:33 PM 11-25-2007
It's tempting to try CIO every night for this house, I haven't given in, even when DS is waking 5 times a night, and it's driving me insane. DS is 17 mos. and there's nothing wrong with him, he just doesn't sleep. Sometimes DH and I MUST take five and usually we walk into the next room to pray and hold each other. two minutes later we come back. it's just a sanity break, but it still leaves me feeling guilty. And I feel judgemental about this too, because anyone who has a sleeper andtries to offer me advice has no idea how lucky they are. I usually change the subject.
macca's Avatar macca 07:41 PM 11-25-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrennaMama View Post
CIO advocates are just weird seriously... wacky in the brain... to deny one's most basic instincts, and not go to the child one has birthed from her own body when that child is clearly showing need... insane... seriously nuts. "Well it really sucked, and it was hard, and I cried all night myself and my dh held me while I cried and helped keep me from running in... but we made it... It took everything I had not to run it to him as he screamed, and it took a few days...
The fact that it is physically difficult to ignore a crying baby should really tell them something

There are also "sleep trainers" you can hire and "sleep schools" for babies over three months (lots of people absolutely swear by them), and the idea is basically to provide parents with support to get them through the initial phase of CIO - because heaven forbid a mother should "weaken" and respond to her child's cries
octobermom's Avatar octobermom 08:14 PM 11-25-2007
Quote:
I have mainstream friends who are otherwise great parents, yet somehow are not bothered by CIO.
This is my brother and my SIL. There (at the time) 4 month old can be screaming his head off they can have a bottle all ready for him (FF) but is its not "time" they just let him scream. SIL is good about rocking him to sleep but if he wakes any time during the night (minus his one feeding) they let him cry.. He sleeps in the same room as them (in a crib) but still they just ingnore the cries I really don't get it.
I was luck to have a PEd who not only encouraged me to always respond but supported my breastfeeding for as long as I did. (4 years)

D
octobermom's Avatar octobermom 08:21 PM 11-25-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by heidirk View Post
It's tempting to try CIO every night for this house, I haven't given in, even when DS is waking 5 times a night, and it's driving me insane. DS is 17 mos. and there's nothing wrong with him, he just doesn't sleep. Sometimes DH and I MUST take five and usually we walk into the next room to pray and hold each other. two minutes later we come back. it's just a sanity break, but it still leaves me feeling guilty. And I feel judgemental about this too, because anyone who has a sleeper andtries to offer me advice has no idea how lucky they are. I usually change the subject.
Hugs... I can relate till we got a bot had a diagnoisis and help for my supply issues and latter DD sensory and apraxia issues we went through so VERY hard sleep times and yes I know VERY much that need to get a break a VERY real as in you might unintentionally but really hurt your child if you don't. When slinging didn't help nor did anything else it wasn't an I want to abbandon you it was a set her down in a safe place and take 2 mintues to lock yourself in the bathroom so you can pray and cry (cause of the guilt) I do completely underrstand.. I totally differ from a true CIO wher you are delebertly seperating your self so that they just figure out your not comming.
tammyswanson's Avatar tammyswanson 08:21 PM 11-25-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by macca View Post
The fact that it is physically difficult to ignore a crying baby should really tell them something

There are also "sleep trainers" you can hire and "sleep schools" for babies over three months (lots of people absolutely swear by them), and the idea is basically to provide parents with support to get them through the initial phase of CIO - because heaven forbid a mother should "weaken" and respond to her child's cries
What about support for the child? No one is running in to see why they are screaming their heads off.
Nora'sMama's Avatar Nora'sMama 08:28 PM 11-25-2007
I think that it is sadly ironic that parents who are doing CIO need so much "support" to get through it.

Who is supporting the baby?

I once heard someone give the advice to a newly-CIO'ing mom to "drink a glass of wine, you'll need it". What about the baby? Where's his wine?
Nora'sMama's Avatar Nora'sMama 08:28 PM 11-25-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by tammyswanson View Post
What about support for the child? No one is running in to see why they are screaming their heads off.
Wow, jinx!
trystrid's Avatar trystrid 10:43 PM 11-25-2007
I just don't understand how these parents do it, period. Hearing my daughter cry makes my whole body twist up and I feel sick if I can't get to her soon enough (like if I'm stuck in the bathroom ).

I've stopped telling the truth when asked if DD is sleeping through the night. If I say "No, she's still waking up about 4-5 times to nurse" then I get told I'm being manipulated and that I should start letting her CIO. It's lovely getting advice (especially this kind of gruesome advice) when you're not even asking for it or complaining about the lack of sleep.
PhillyMama's Avatar PhillyMama 02:07 PM 11-26-2007
I heard something recently that makes so much sense -

"A need not met in infancy becomes a hole to fill in adulthood"

One of my LLL leaders said it and I can't remember who she was quoting but I think it's so true and I've repeated it to family & friends who can't understand why we don't CIO, etc.
wasabi's Avatar wasabi 02:40 PM 11-26-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by texanatheart View Post
Needless to say at age 18 she is VERY emotionally scarred. As an older child, she used to gnaw on the backs of her hands. Sorry to tell that awful story, and it's quite extreme, but it goes to show how much damage it can do to an otherwise beautiful life
You know this is not needless to say. I'm sorry I am not at all pro-CIO. I still cosleep with my two and five year old. It's not what I would do and it breaks my heart to read about tiny babies being left to cry. But as we've all said this is a very mainstream practice. Mainstream meaning many many people (the majority in fact) do this and yet not all these little kids are running around emotionally scarred and chewing on the backs of their hands. I am one of five children and we were all CIOed and none of us chewed on the baby of our hands. I think those kinds of long lasting side effects are actually pretty unusual and rare. And I think when we say things like that we lose possible converts because it seems so inflammatory and over the top and no one the person we're talking to has ever heard of such a thing so it's easy to dismiss us. I think the point should more be how much it sucks for the baby. How it feels for the baby and how it's just not right to treat such a young one that way rather than "oh your kid is going to be forever emotionally damaged if you do that" because quite honestly that's probably not true if the parents are otherwise loving and engaged. As we've said many parents aren't doing this callously they're doing it because they think the baby "needs" it. Now there are parents that to me the CIO is a symtom of their otherwise crappy parenting. These parents are in all things detattached. Fit the kids into their life instead of adapting their own life. I can easily believe these people have emotionally disturbed kids but who can pinpoint what part was due to the CIO and what part to the spanking and what part to feeling like they were an accessory for mom kwim?

And again I'm not saying CIO is good but I can't accepted that needless to say all kids who are CIOed and shut in their rooms are reduced to emotionally disturbed shells either.
granola_mom's Avatar granola_mom 05:23 PM 11-26-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodheartedmama View Post
on the mainstream board I go to, someone posted recently about having to use an industrial fan to block out the noise of her child, who CIO for 3 hours. THREE HOURS!
I literally bawled imagining this baby alone in the dark whose desperate cries were being blocked out by a huge loud fan : I can't read any more. That is abuse... neglect. Period.
readytobedone's Avatar readytobedone 08:03 PM 11-26-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by wasabi View Post
And again I'm not saying CIO is good but I can't accepted that needless to say all kids who are CIOed and shut in their rooms are reduced to emotionally disturbed shells either.
of course not. but then, lots of kids are also spanked and hit and turn out NOT to be "emotionally disturbed shells." the point to me is that it's just not right to do certain things with and to your children, even if they are likely to turn out more or less okay anyhow.

and of course some kids are much more affected by these things, even in small doses, than others. and you just don't know whether your child, or any child, will be so affected. for example, maybe sleep training had no ill effects on you, but i'm convinced that being allowed to cry in my crib every night (even though my dad lay on the floor so i wouldn't "feel abandoned," but didn't pick me up--every night!) did do something to me. i hate going to bed, did when i was a kid, always have, still do, probably always will. it's always felt scary to me, and i refuse to believe this has nothing to do with CIO.

if i can keep my child from feeling that way about going to bed, i want to do that. it's a wonderful gift to give your child, good feelings about sleep--not to mention teaching them to trust their loved ones. i'm not very good at that either
macca's Avatar macca 09:33 PM 11-26-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by readytobedone View Post
of course not. but then, lots of kids are also spanked and hit and turn out NOT to be "emotionally disturbed shells." the point to me is that it's just not right to do certain things with and to your children, even if they are likely to turn out more or less okay anyhow.
Yeah, I'm not a fan of the whole "well, my parents did blah-blah and I'm perfectly fine!" argument ... by nature, human beings are resilient and many have survived unspeakable horrors and, to the outside world, appear to be 'fine'.

We could beat our children and, chances are, they'd grow up to be functioning adults who don't appear obviously "damaged". But I think we can all accept, even the most hardcore mainstreamers included, that beating kids is wrong.
smeisnotapirate's Avatar smeisnotapirate 09:37 PM 11-26-2007
Here's a sick, sad story. I was 15 and babysitting for a family who was ferberizing their approx year-old baby. I was given the rule that "under NO circumstances" was I to go in the baby's room after 8 o'clock and pick him up. (We all know what's going to happen, right?) I put him to bed precisely at 8 and he started screaming. After a half hour of screaming (and me crying outside the door), I called my mom and asked her what to do. She told me to give it another hour.

Well, after the hour and a half (I had put on a movie to try to distract myself, but couldn't and watched the clock the whole time), I called my mom again. While I was on the phone with her, the poor little guy THREW UP from crying so much. I went in to clean him up and my mother told me TO LEAVE HIM LIKE THAT. She said "that's what I used to do with you. It taught you not to cry and then throw up everywhere when you had to sleep in it."



I was dumbfounded. I hung up with my mom, cleaned him off and changed him, and let him stay up and watch the movie with me. When his mom & dad got home, I quick ran him into his room and put him in the crib.

Can you imagine?? It totally changed my view of my mom.
MelanieMC's Avatar MelanieMC 10:02 PM 11-26-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magali View Post
When it gets rough for me...like on certain nights when I really want my alone time...and ds is wide awake...instead of putting him in another room and letting him scream, I try to think that someday he is going to be 16 years old and won't want to cuddle with me at all. Someday I'm sure I'll look back and be happy for all the time we spent together nursing and cuddling.
That's exactly what I would be thinking about. They are only little for so long, why spend that time ignoring them and treating them like something they have to manage and train? Hold your babies tight, mamas!
macca's Avatar macca 10:05 PM 11-26-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by smeisnotapirate View Post
Here's a sick, sad story. I was 15 and babysitting for a family who was ferberizing their approx year-old baby. I was given the rule that "under NO circumstances" was I to go in the baby's room after 8 o'clock and pick him up. (We all know what's going to happen, right?) I put him to bed precisely at 8 and he started screaming. After a half hour of screaming (and me crying outside the door), I called my mom and asked her what to do. She told me to give it another hour.

Well, after the hour and a half (I had put on a movie to try to distract myself, but couldn't and watched the clock the whole time), I called my mom again. While I was on the phone with her, the poor little guy THREW UP from crying so much. I went in to clean him up and my mother told me TO LEAVE HIM LIKE THAT. She said "that's what I used to do with you. It taught you not to cry and then throw up everywhere when you had to sleep in it."
:

There's a highly renowned Australian "sleep expert" who has given advice almost as awful for this scenario - she explains that the vomiting is nothing more than a manipulative technique of a more "fiesty" baby and that all you should do is go in, wipe them down, clean them up as efficiently as possible without making eye contact or offering any comfort and leave the room again.
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