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#31 of 59 Old 01-10-2008, 05:07 PM
 
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First of all lots of hugs it is no fun to be tired.

Secondly I have to agree with pp's if you have a young baby you will be tired no matter what your sleeping arangement. I have 7 sibling and amongst us my parents have 40+ grandkids. One of my siblings has 6 kids 1 from a previous marriage and 5 with current dh. She has EASY babies there is no way around it her kids literally sleep 8 hrs through the night after about 8 wks. She is very proud of herself and thinks she is doing everything right. She starts out co sleeping and moves to crib no problems. I have a sis who had one baby co sleep and another refuse and once they figured it out everyone slept better. I have another sister who thought she did everything right with her first kid sleep wise and got severly humbled with her second. My own kids co sleep my 19 mo old is starting to be a thrasher we may have to figure out her own space close by. Some of my other sisters have never truly coslept. No matter what sleeping arrangement we have chosen we all get tired we all wish for more sleep.

I recently met a woman at church who has a 4 mo old. She looks like the walking dead. I cringe every time I see her she falls asleep in the mothers lounge while nursing her baby. Her sentences sometimes are incoherent. But from what I gather it's not so much her baby (she doesn't co sleep or CIO) as her inconsiderate husband that won't let her sleep in past 8am on the weekends to recover.

The point of my rambling is no matter what you choose you might still be in the same predicament. I truly think there is no wrong solution except CIO. Do what works best and gets you the most sleep without distressing the baby.

Mom to 6 with #7 on the way Sept 2014
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#32 of 59 Old 01-10-2008, 05:19 PM
 
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It sounds like you've got a plan and some things to try. Just having a plan always made me feel better even if it did not end up working 100%. As you say, everything is harder when you are sleep-deprived. You clearly are approaching this as a responsive parent and trying to meet your daughter's needs, so as long as you follow your instincts and don't feel you must do something that "feels wrong" just because some book or some person says so, you will be fine. Remember, if you try something and it is clearly not working you don't need to keep doing it just because you started it either (though some books try to make you think otherwise).

Good luck!

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#33 of 59 Old 01-10-2008, 06:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by D_McG View Post
I think if you are chronically fatigued, then something isn't working and it's time for change
Hah. That, or your baby just doesn't like to sleep the same way you do.

We're up between 4 and 8 times a night no matter what we do (or don't do). That's just how it is with our child. Not sure what I would/could change at this point, but co-sleeping has definitely made some of the night time stuff easier for us.

See? I am so sleep deprived that I responded to this thread twice without even realizing it. Dork.
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#34 of 59 Old 01-10-2008, 06:59 PM
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I think that for us, nursing to sleep was what initiated some of the frequent wakings,not so much the cosleeping.

I know a woman who is adamant about waking herself out of sleep, bf's, then pushes her baby a few feet from her so he won't equate food/sucking with sleep and she swears its what helped him to not wake so much ( I think w/her first she didn't). I felt that in the nb stage it was fine, but my intuition told me arond the 3rd month that it was getting to be a 'need' in order for ds to fall asleep. I wish I started to change things then. But we're working on it mow at 4.5months and it is improving (ncss).

Also, I second a pp's comment about needing some space sometmes. For the past few nights ds has woken once or twice fussing and he wasn't hungry, or wet. I got frustrated and moved across the bed and he instantly fell asleep!! Lately I think he likes a little distance physically, poor guy, I'm all over him at night usually
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#35 of 59 Old 01-10-2008, 07:09 PM
 
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You need to remember that this is a board where people post for help. I'm not about to go and start a thread on how great a sleeper my newborn is. So you've got essentially a slice of the population who are sleep deprived. Everyone else is off stressing about poo or food or behaviour. You wouldn't walk into an AA meeting and exclaim how no-one seems to be able to drink moderately these days.

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Hah. That, or your baby just doesn't like to sleep the same way you do.

We're up between 4 and 8 times a night no matter what we do (or don't do). That's just how it is with our child. Not sure what I would/could change at this point, but co-sleeping has definitely made some of the night time stuff easier for us.
You posted twice but you said good stuff!

My two year old has nightmares, she wakes up from them. I sleep in a bed next to hers so I don't have to get out of bed to comfort her. I agree that bed sharing can cause nightwakings (it certainly does for me), but that's not the whole story.

But actually, I have seen people on here argue that any manipulation whatsoever of your child's sleep is a bad thing, no matter how you feel. And that was in a discussion about having a consistent bedtime for older kids! So I suppose yes, some people on here do make life harder/tireder than it needs to be.
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#36 of 59 Old 01-10-2008, 08:31 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by jenrose9 View Post
I think that for us, nursing to sleep was what initiated some of the frequent wakings,not so much the cosleeping.

I know a woman who is adamant about waking herself out of sleep, bf's, then pushes her baby a few feet from her so he won't equate food/sucking with sleep and she swears its what helped him to not wake so much ( I think w/her first she didn't). I felt that in the nb stage it was fine, but my intuition told me arond the 3rd month that it was getting to be a 'need' in order for ds to fall asleep. I wish I started to change things then. But we're working on it mow at 4.5months and it is improving (ncss).

Also, I second a pp's comment about needing some space sometmes. For the past few nights ds has woken once or twice fussing and he wasn't hungry, or wet. I got frustrated and moved across the bed and he instantly fell asleep!! Lately I think he likes a little distance physically, poor guy, I'm all over him at night usually
I think you are correct. I place the blame for her nightwakings squarely on the nursing to sleep association. That why I am going to lovingly break it when we move and are settled.
I see also what folks are saying about people not posting good things. It makes sense.
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#37 of 59 Old 01-10-2008, 10:07 PM
 
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I can say, unequivocally, that Babywise is very very bad. It has been linked to failure to thrive, breastfeeding problems, dehydration, etc.
ITA, Babywise and Ferber are two VERY different beasts. Ferber may be mainstream, but he bases his information on experience and evidence. The author of Babywise really is a religious zealot (not judging, just defining) with no scientific evidence to back up his claims on ANYTHING. The information he disseminates is dangerous to mothers and babies alike. There's no good reason to read Babywise.

On the topic at hand, I agree that it's hard to feel rested when babes reach that 6-7 month age bracket. Overall, co-sleeping has been a huge blessing to us, and we've been doing it for 7 1/2 years.

HUGS to the OP!! I hope that you get some much needed rest soon!

Amanda and Dh, ds 09/00, ds 08/03, ds 10/05, and ds 05/08, and 3 :
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#38 of 59 Old 01-11-2008, 03:42 AM
 
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I posted on this thread yesterday (#17). I am someone for whom cosleeping is working. I was thinking about it later and realized this is my first time posting in this forum. And I only look at it very rarely. (The word "gorilla" caught my eye yesterday.) So I pretty much am that person for whom cosleeping is working that never posts here.

I read your post #21 describing how your dd is with sleeping and nursing. Recent changes could have to do with teething and pass. I think I remember that kind of things started around her age.

I know it is so hard dealing with sleep deprivation. It is hard to think straight. See if your intuition is telling you something. Also is there a way you can get some naps in the morning or days while someone plays with your dd?

Lots of good wishes and

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#39 of 59 Old 01-11-2008, 04:20 AM
 
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I am guessing the desperate moms would be just as desperately trying to get their babies to sleep better, whether or not they were cosleeping. They would just be even more tired if they had to get up out of bed during the night.
Yep. We didn't start cosleeping until DD was 6 months old, and I went from a couple hours of broken sleep a night to feeling like I was getting a full night's sleep. DD was a "good sleeper" until 4 months old, when she started waking up hourly, and because I refused to use CIO, I was up rocking and nursing for hours each night.

It is VERY common for babies in the 4-6 month old range to start having fitful sleep after sleeping soundly up to this point. It can be related to teething, learning to sit up or crawl, introduction of solids, becoming more aware of their surroundings, so many things. It's developmental, and not something sleep training can "fix." I used to post on a mainstream board, and not a single CIO user was "successful" during this age.

DD is 3.75 now and still sleeps with us. She also needed to nurse to sleep until about 2.5 years old. It wasn't a habit that needed broken, and she outgrew the need completely on her own.
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#40 of 59 Old 01-11-2008, 11:51 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I don't mind nursing her down if she would then stay asleep after I put her down. She just doesn't do it anymore, and she needs myboob to go back to sleep all night long. My nipples hurt and I'm exhausted--and I'm just not a good mom when I'm tired like this. Somethings gotta give here!
I'm thinking of just starting the PPO at night.
I watched her closely and what it seems to me is that she is not getting past the light sleep phase very much. I think that is a big piece of this puzzle.
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#41 of 59 Old 01-12-2008, 01:03 AM
 
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I don't mind nursing her down if she would then stay asleep after I put her down. She just doesn't do it anymore, and she needs myboob to go back to sleep all night long. My nipples hurt and I'm exhausted--and I'm just not a good mom when I'm tired like this. Somethings gotta give here!
I'm with you and it used to really annoy me when people would say, aww, what's the big deal about nursing to sleep? Well, nothing, if either (1) you can sleep through the nursing sessions or (2) your baby doesn't wake up every 20 minutes all. night. long. afterwards! When you're bleeding and sore and exhausted and crying, I think it's okay to lovingly, gently, slowly, make a change.

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I have seen people on here argue that any manipulation whatsoever of your child's sleep is a bad thing, no matter how you feel. And that was in a discussion about having a consistent bedtime for older kids! So I suppose yes, some people on here do make life harder/tireder than it needs to be.
Yep. And that's where I have to say, you know what, sorry, I need a minimum amount of sleep to function and be a good parent during the day. So I'm going to do what we need to do to get some real sleep. I'm not going to resort to leaving my baby to cry herself to sleep alone in a crib, but I'm going to do *something.*

and good luck!!
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#42 of 59 Old 01-12-2008, 04:15 PM
 
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I think that those of us who have non-sleepers, the ones who are "desparate", would still be getting too little sleep no matter what we did. I don't think that having my dd in a crib, letting her cio, or anything else would have made things much better. I think that dd's sleep "problems" are a part of who she is, and there's really nothibg to be done about it.
:

Both my kids are bad sleepers, DS was worse than DD but DD is still a bad sleeper. DS was such a bad sleeper that nobody wanted to sleep with him, and nobody STILL wants to sleep with him! DD is better to sleep with (thank goodness, because I can't take naps anymore) but I had mono for about 6 months this year because I could never get enough sleep to get better.

I agree it's a temperament thing with the kid because I've known other kids to be this way and the only thing that helped was that they grew out of it.
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#43 of 59 Old 01-12-2008, 07:15 PM
 
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I think you do get more sleep cosleeping when they're infants. But with my first 2, once they hit 12-18 months, it seemed to be diminishing returns. Once I nightweaned and they were sleeping in their own space, we all got more sleep and we were happier.

Just sharing my experience and what works for us.
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#44 of 59 Old 01-12-2008, 09:31 PM
 
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I haven't read the whole thread, just skimmed through, but my experience is that ds really seems to sleep better in the hours he's alone in bed before we come to bed - he *sometimes* will do 4 hours straight (if he went early and we go late) while once we're there he's up at least every 1 to 1.5 hours - on a good night. It has gotten progressively worse as he's gotten older (he's 19 months). I really think both our presence (moving, breathing, etc.) and specifically my presence (I really think he can smell me) contribute to the more frequent waking. That is not to say that there are not other reasons for his waking - he'll also sometimes wake 3 times before we come to bed and need to be nursed/walked back down - so I know our/my presence isn't the only issue. I have been feeling desperate lately, especially when it's 3 am and he's up for the 5th time and now he needs to be walked to sleep after nursing him for the past 45 min hasn't worked : ... but really I'm just too tired to try any major changes right now . We're working on earlier bedtimes (they slipped over Xmas), darker, quieter sleep environment, and dh sleeping in my spot between ds and I. It seems to help a bit, but it's all I have in me right now...

All of that said, I do believe that if he wasn't in with us he'd still be up a few times and I'd be losing just as much sleep just getting up out of bed with him each time as I am now waking with him more often ... I guess I'm willing to accept more wakings if it means I can stay in bed for all of them.
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#45 of 59 Old 01-12-2008, 09:55 PM
 
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They would just be even more tired if they had to get up out of bed during the night.
Only a part time cosleeper, but did not CIO, so take this with whatever grain of salt you choose to.

While it is probably true you'd be more tired if you were getting up, I found that that was not always the case.

When I had baby in a cosleeper, and afterwards, when we started putting him down at 8pm in his crib, going to bed, and then bringing him in with us around 4am-ish, I got much better sleep than when I had him with me all night.

WHat I realized is that for me to feel human, I need to get at least one complete, uninterrupted, REM cycle, which takes around 3 hours (plus/minus some amount).

Cosleeping, especially once he got to the "hard to nurse down, thinking being latched on but not sucking was a fine plan" stage, meant that while I was never all the way to awake -- I also was not getting *down* far enough in sleep to get that REM cycle. I was constantly being slightly awakened.

He was sleeping 4-hour stretches at night from the very beginning, so what worked for everyone to get the sleep we needed was for him to start the night in his own bed, for me to get 4-ish hours of uninterrupted sleep, then interrupt that sleep very briefly, get him to join us, and go back for more sleep of slightly lower quality. The interruption of getting up was, in the end, less disruptive to overall sleep than being kicked and chewed on was.

As far as being nonresponsive - maybe a beneficial side effect of living in a tiny apartment was that both babies spent months in our room, in a bassinet touching our bed, and then moved to a crib that was "next door" but was about 12 steps away. I could hear them well and found that I woke quickly

savithny, 42 year old moderate mom to DS Primo (age 12) and DD Secunda (age 9).

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#46 of 59 Old 01-14-2008, 12:39 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm with you and it used to really annoy me when people would say, aww, what's the big deal about nursing to sleep? Well, nothing, if either (1) you can sleep through the nursing sessions or (2) your baby doesn't wake up every 20 minutes all. night. long. afterwards! When you're bleeding and sore and exhausted and crying, I think it's okay to lovingly, gently, slowly, make a change.


Yep. And that's where I have to say, you know what, sorry, I need a minimum amount of sleep to function and be a good parent during the day. So I'm going to do what we need to do to get some real sleep. I'm not going to resort to leaving my baby to cry herself to sleep alone in a crib, but I'm going to do *something.*

and good luck!!
:
Well, all, I have to say that things seem to be easing for now!!!! She is sleeping a wee longer and waking less and starting to take naps (on me on the boppy or in the Ergo but what the hey!) Hopefully when we move and are settled in I can start the PPO...for now she has been asleep since 8:30 and I am psyched! I'm also paranoid.....
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#47 of 59 Old 01-14-2008, 08:34 PM
 
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I co-sleep to get sleep, so no I don't think that's necesarrily true for everyone. DS would never let me lie him in a crib and walk away.

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#48 of 59 Old 01-14-2008, 10:34 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I knew I should be paranoid. She won't sleep tonight and I've had it. She's in the crib and that's where she's staying until something gives. She was rollling around so much she fell off the bed (not a far distance at all but enough to startle her)
She's into rollling around alot and I don't think our bed is really set up for it.
I am crying again as is normal now everyday for three weeks now. I don't want another child if I have to go through this everytime. It may sound selfish but I'm just not a good mom when things are like this and its better I don't have anymore if it is going to be this way everytime.
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#49 of 59 Old 01-14-2008, 10:42 PM
 
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I'm so sorry. You need to read Moxie on sleep regressions here:

http://moxie.blogs.com/askmoxie/2006...t_are_sle.html

and if you have energy, here:

http://moxie.blogs.com/askmoxie/2005...and_dirty.html

It will get better - I know that doesn't help now. Try to find a way to get you more sleep whether it's during the day or whatever, and then you will find a way through that fits you and your family!

For the record, we side-carred until 1 year and then started cosleeping. Now my son sleeps mostly through the night (usually nurses around 4 am) and tonight decided to sleep in his own bed. I think it is highly child-dependent (but it has to work for all of you!) And I didn't get enough sleep at 6-7 months either!

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#50 of 59 Old 01-14-2008, 11:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks for the Moxie links they made me feel better. I understand now why she slept so long last nght and not as much so far tonight--she's been working on rolling over and back, over and back. She was all over the bed tonight and now it all makes sense as to why she wouldn't sleep...I feel like she's really gearing up to try and learn to crawl or something.
BTW once she started crying from tiredness I put her with me back in bed and nursed her to sleep.
It's hard for me at the witching hour (7-9:30) to handle one more issue. I simply seem to completely lose all patience between those hours. Especally when she doesn't just go right down--ya know the whole pull off boob and look at night light and roll and back to boob repeat then coo then boob then light then roll--for basically 2 1/2 HOURS. Throw into the mix a healthy topple off the bed ( I was NOT expecting her to be able to move that much!) and me putting her in the crib for a little while to work out her restless self to exhaustion. YiKes!
I feel like trying to institute a regular bedtime is failing as it seems to waiver between 6:45 some nights and 8pm others depending on her tiredness. Last night she was so tired she went down at 6:45 and slept a ton. I tried a similar thing today putting us in bed at 7 and this happens. WTH? Why bother with a set time then?..
Anyway thanks again. Moxie has a way of keeping me sane when I read her.
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#51 of 59 Old 01-15-2008, 12:04 AM
 
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I am in and out of this thread but what time does she wake from her nap? A good structure for a day (generally) is

Wake
TWO hours later ASLEEP for a nap (so maybe 1.5 hours later you're winding down for a nap)
THREE hours after waking from the nap you are asleep again.
FOUR hours after waking from the second nap she's down for the night. So back into that sleep time by starting your bedtime routine 45 minutes or so beforehand.

If she is going crazy b/w 7 and 9:30 then I think you missed the window for her sleep and she's all crazy on adrenalin. That is so easy to fix so I hope this helps.

DS (6.06), DD (10.08), DD (05.11).

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#52 of 59 Old 01-15-2008, 12:15 AM - Thread Starter
 
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You know I also wish someone would have explained to me the whole nurse to sleep association and how that too can really bite you in the butt.

Anyway, in reference to the above post, yes that sounds right. As I was reading the Moxie info and what you wrote above, and after observing her now for a couple weeks of hell, my formulation from earlier today for her new routine seems right. I am hoping the routine helps all of this:
7am wake
8:30-9 NAPTIME
1pm NAPTIME
6-6:30 begin bedtime routine
7pm BEDTIME
I just wish she could go down without needing the boob. I wouldn't mind nursing her and then laying her down but I can't yet and it drives me crazy. So in the meantime I think I will just take naps with her I guess...thanks for the advice one and all it is, once again, keeping me sane.
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#53 of 59 Old 01-15-2008, 12:24 AM
 
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OP,

I hate to tell you this, but your LO sounds totally normal. And, yes, (at least for me) months 4-9 were downright awful. Just awful. Our kid woke up as often as every 45 mins for a while.

We still have bad nights (weeks?) but slowly it's getting better.

What has helped us a little is really preparing her for bedtime. We give her about 45 mins or so to adjust to the idea of bedtime. We turn off the tv, play quietly, read, etc., and, we always do everything the same exact way. For a while we even read the same books in the same order every night.

You mentioned the night light being a distraction - can you turn it off? I had to remove all distractions and put a white noise maker in our room so dd can sleep better.

It's hard, but it gets better. Hang in there and in your more rested moments take stock of all the things your LO is processing, learning and developing.
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#54 of 59 Old 01-15-2008, 12:25 AM
 
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mama, just wanted to say i feel you. totally. it's 10:23 here and DD won't go to bed. this is usual more nights than not now. if i were a different person, i would totally be sleep training right now. but i'm not that person. so right now she is up in the bedroom crying with DH. she already cried with me, so i figured i'd let him have a turn.

hugs. it sucks.

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#55 of 59 Old 01-15-2008, 12:34 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by readytobedone View Post
mama, just wanted to say i feel you. totally. it's 10:23 here and DD won't go to bed. this is usual more nights than not now. if i were a different person, i would totally be sleep training right now. but i'm not that person. so right now she is up in the bedroom crying with DH. she already cried with me, so i figured i'd let him have a turn.

hugs. it sucks.
DH isn't even home tonight!! Many thanks for your sympathy!
I just love all you guys. We're all crazy together right? :
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#56 of 59 Old 01-15-2008, 12:45 AM
 
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Locksmama, I really feel for you. We have a DS that, given the choice would not ever sleep.

We did use NCCS and found it a good source of ideas. PPO didn't work, because if I was in smelling range DS would wake enough to latch on. We had thrush, and I also have psoriasis on my nipples (TMI sorry) and finding a way for him to fall asleep without nursing was necessary for the survival of our nursing relationship.

What worked best was to put together a pleasant hour long bedtime routine ending with DH dancing him down to music. He started sleeping much more soundly. And as Pantley says, if at any time he became very upset, I'd nurse him down. But for the most part he can't settle nursing any more, and this drove us to find a solution forall of us. The last laugh is on DH is that now DS needs his DADDY to fall asleep for nighttime! :

Co sleeping only works for us at 18 mos. if DS is very tired or sick.

: to you, lots of us have been there too.

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#57 of 59 Old 01-15-2008, 12:56 AM
 
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IME nursing to sleep made no difference. For a long time I would walk out and DS would fall asleep alone in his crib. He still work 100 times a night wanting love. (I can't remember if I posted this already in this thread. Sorry for the rp if so!)

DS (6.06), DD (10.08), DD (05.11).

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#58 of 59 Old 01-15-2008, 01:04 AM
 
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Originally Posted by locksmama View Post
She was rollling around so much she fell off the bed (not a far distance at all but enough to startle her)
When babies reach the mobile age, it's a good idea to put the mattress directly on the ground, so if they roll off, they only fall 6" or so. With my DD, we put a mattress on the floor next to our bed. I would nurse DD to sleep on the mattress, join my DH in the bed, sleep for a short while, and then when my DD woke up, I'd join her on the mattress for the rest of the night. It was a wonderful arrangement, and I'd highly recommend it.
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#59 of 59 Old 01-15-2008, 10:31 AM
 
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Originally Posted by locksmama View Post
Thanks for the Moxie links they made me feel better. I understand now why she slept so long last nght and not as much so far tonight--she's been working on rolling over and back, over and back. She was all over the bed tonight and now it all makes sense as to why she wouldn't sleep...I feel like she's really gearing up to try and learn to crawl or something.
BTW once she started crying from tiredness I put her with me back in bed and nursed her to sleep.
It's hard for me at the witching hour (7-9:30) to handle one more issue. I simply seem to completely lose all patience between those hours. Especally when she doesn't just go right down--ya know the whole pull off boob and look at night light and roll and back to boob repeat then coo then boob then light then roll--for basically 2 1/2 HOURS. Throw into the mix a healthy topple off the bed ( I was NOT expecting her to be able to move that much!) and me putting her in the crib for a little while to work out her restless self to exhaustion. YiKes!
I feel like trying to institute a regular bedtime is failing as it seems to waiver between 6:45 some nights and 8pm others depending on her tiredness. Last night she was so tired she went down at 6:45 and slept a ton. I tried a similar thing today putting us in bed at 7 and this happens. WTH? Why bother with a set time then?..
Anyway thanks again. Moxie has a way of keeping me sane when I read her.
I'm glad it helped... the 2-3-4 rule helped us a lot (with us it worked out to more of a 2-2-5 rule, but it was a good guideline to start with).

I was thinking of what else helped at that age and I realized that was around the age I started walking my son down in the Ergo rather than always nursing him down (although I did both, I just figured if he got to sleep SOMETIMES without nursing that was good enough). I'd put him on under my coat and go for a walk for at least one of the naps, and often at night. The walking helped me, and it did get an alternative way to sleep going (I had to work a little bit to get him out without waking him but the Ergo was good for that. I couldn't use a sling at that point 'cause of my back.)

I even remember going out in the middle of the night a couple of especially hard nights. My husband was on a business trip and it was a witchy night and I went out crying and then looked up and saw the moon and realized like, every mom on the planet possibly has been out there doing that. It was quite the night.

Wish I had remembered that last night to share! Anyways I hope today is better and you WILL get through this. DO NOT beat yourself up for anything you've done sleep-wise, and like Moxie says, take one tiny thing to change at a time if you are unhappy with it. You only have so much control too. And see if a friend can come over so you can get a nap!!!

~ Mum to Emily, March 12-16 2004, Noah, born Aug 2005, Liam, born January 2011, and wife to Carl since 1994. ~
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