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#31 of 46 Old 06-19-2010, 04:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Tigerchild View Post
,

I guess I'm a little sad that it sounds like YOU received the same confirmation about your son's giftedness as you friend did (the principal confirmed it, and suggested a course of action--for your child, a pull out program, for hers differentiation--which is a BIG DEAL given the attitudes of most administrators towards differentiation!)...and yet you still reject her and her child. Aren't you perpetrating the same sort of thing that you criticize teachers and others for? People didn't want to treat your kid as gifted. They pooh poohed his scores. And you turn around and are doing the same thing to this lady and her kid.

That being said, I do think that this sort of thing (subconsciously treating others like they were treated) is responsible for the worst behavior in gifted circles. Thankfully MOST people are not like that...or they have good friends that call them hard on it.
It wasn't 'people' who rejected my son's giftedness, it was really just the teachers who I would have expected to notice it. But it wasn't that they just didn't notice his giftedness, they didn't notice anything about him...They really just never had anything to say other than he was doing fine. Even before I suspected giftedness I thought their lack of personalization seemed odd.

The reason why I'm skeptical of my friend's child's giftedness is because she's been so wishy-washy all along. Now that she wants to be a part of my group she's calling her child gifted. But I guess that's her prerogative and if she's not exaggerating her child may very well be gifted. My skepticism is because of her inconsistency, but the skepticism of teachers towards their own gifted students is different because they work with those children every single day for an entire school year. They should know all sorts of things about those kids by the middle of the year. I was shocked to find out how little my son's teacher knew about my son at the end of the school year. She didn't even pronounce his name correctly and this is one of the highest rated schools around.

The principle/counselor seem to have an entirely different approach than the teachers though they are all supposed to be on the same boat. At least I didn't encounter skepticism from them, both seemed eager to know our family and child. I really don't know what holds teachers back, but like I wrote before many of them gladly call their own children gifted so it's not as if they are against the concept altogether.
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#32 of 46 Old 06-19-2010, 05:55 PM
 
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I just wanted to comment that you'll find unusually large amounts of gifted individuals in theatre at all levels. It was my own home as a child and much of my adult life. My own children love it... for my DD, it's her passion, my DS, a fun social outlet. Instructors, designers, directors and adult actors tend to treat children more as equals and hold them to high standards of performance and behavior. This is pretty addicting to the gifted child. Theatre welcomes and takes pleasure in eccentricity. In theatre, you can be a vegetarian atheist and your best friend a meat-eating Catholic and it will never, ever matter. Certainly, it's not going to be "home" to everyone. I can't say you'll never run into a jerk but in my 30 years involved (my own youth theatre experiences, educational theatre, professional theatre and now being a parent of kids in youth and professional theatre) but in a quality program, I can say that they have far less power than jerks do in school, sports, ect.

Community is incredibly important. Good luck to your little ones in finding the perfect one!

OT!

Thats funny, its so true! I remember the first time seeing an impromptu performance & being floored by the pure genius & talent of it! Serious genius stuff happening there!

And a note about *some* public school teachers - This is a total generalization... but after witnessing many teacher's lounge type of conversations at the PS where my mother teaches, I can tell you that ego & attitude & jealousy runs rampant. You're not imagining that, its crazy but many of the teachers I watched, would really get off on the fact that they got to sit a kid in the hallway for punishment, relaying how/what they yelled at the kid, how the kid was upset, etc. I actually stood in shock almost every time I went to the school where my mom teaches. Its a really weird attitude. Of course not every teacher in every school, but it was 100% there in the school that I've been. I can absolutely see how a teacher would not give a gifted kid credit for being above average or gifted. It challenges the teacher's ego. Sad but true.

"When the external begins to define the internal, instead of the internal defining the external, one begins living as a mortal rather than as a universal being." ~ unknown
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#33 of 46 Old 06-19-2010, 06:28 PM
 
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It sort of feels like you are redirecting your own frustration over the teachers attitudes onto this friend who wants to be in your group. It seems like you feel a need to prove that you are a better judge of giftedness than the teachers believe you are, so this is you opportunity.

As far as whether your friends kids are gifted or not, I have no idea. I would say though, that her evidence is about as good as your evidence. You and her really do seem to be in a similar situation, you both have kids you have reason to believe are gifted, but people around you doubt it. It sounds like you could really support each other here. If her kid really isn't at all gifted, she will soon tire of the group and leave anyway.

As to why the teachers are giving you such a hard time, one can only speculate. There are a myriad of possible reasons. I've gotten the impression from you, that you yourself didn't even notice you DS's giftedness till recently, so why do you expect the teachers to have noticed it before now. After all, you have spent many years more getting to know than they have, and some kids preform on much higher level at home than they will for others.

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#34 of 46 Old 06-20-2010, 04:29 AM
 
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Not to derail my own thread, but why does this comment not surprise me? Why do teachers (especially of public schools) seem to think that parents overestimate their child's giftedness? Everything I've read indicates that teachers are actually very poor judgers of giftedness and that parents tend to be the most accurate in their assessments. Oddly, I think that it should be teachers who should notice giftedness, but something seems to hold them back from labeling a child something more than 'bright'. My son's teachers never mentioned anything to me about a possibility of giftedness and assuming they would know, I didn't investigate further. It was only when he started telling me how he stood out as smart and different and started having social issues as a result that I began to wonder. It was the counselor and principle together who told me his scores were exceptional and that he needed to be put in the pull out program, but I'm still left wondering why his teacher still never said anything to me. She never even gave me the scores for the school tests...Oddly, she only volunteered to tell me his one lowest score, neglecting to tell me that he scored in the gifted range for all the others. Maybe I'm being paranoid, but it seemed like she wanted to find proof that he wasn't gifted and to make sure I knew it.

Also, it seems that teachers don't find their students gifted, but it does seem like a disproportionate number of teachers find their own children to be gifted. I find that also kind of strange.

I am not commenting on your child, but making more of a general response - I think teachers have the perspective of interacting and watching the learning of many more children, and therefore have a different point of comparison than a parent does when looking at their own child. I don't think it is because teachers are trying to withhold information about the child from the parents nor do I think most teachers miss when there is a child in their class how has above average intelligence, even if that child isn't performing well.



And, while my own child has consistently scored above the 100% percentile on language tests in two languages since he was a young toddler and people have made comments about him being gifted, I am a (former) teacher who doesn't find her own kid gifted.
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#35 of 46 Old 06-20-2010, 09:51 AM
 
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Her son may be gifted by the standards of the school system. If the fit is not there she will drift away. Let it be.
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#36 of 46 Old 06-20-2010, 11:08 AM
 
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And, while my own child has consistently scored above the 100% percentile on language tests in two languages since he was a young toddler and people have made comments about him being gifted, I am a (former) teacher who doesn't find her own kid gifted.
I'm digressing here, but I am feeling compelled to point out that there is no such thing as the 100th percentile. That would mean that, if you lined 100 kids up (yours being one of the 100), that he scored higher than 100 of them (himself included). Since you cannot score higher than yourself, the 99th percentile (higher than the other 99, but not yourself) is as high as you get.

Some more sensitive tests give you the 99.9th percentile (higher than 999 out of 1000 people in a line with you being the #1 person in the line), but school achievement tests don't normally go there. I am assuming that you are meaning to indicate that your dc scored higher than needed to be in the 99th percentile. For instance, my eldest's lexile score at age 10 would have been higher than needed to be in the 99th percentile were she in 12th grade. It was still just considered the 99th for 6th grade (her grade at the time), though, not the 100th.
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#37 of 46 Old 06-20-2010, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I am not commenting on your child, but making more of a general response - I think teachers have the perspective of interacting and watching the learning of many more children, and therefore have a different point of comparison than a parent does when looking at their own child. I don't think it is because teachers are trying to withhold information about the child from the parents nor do I think most teachers miss when there is a child in their class how has above average intelligence, even if that child isn't performing well.
When I was a child I actually had three teachers who thought I was gifted, but it was the principle (or whoever was involved with the GT program) who labeled me non-gifted. In my son's school there seems to be the opposite, the principle seems to recognize the gifted potential in children while the teachers do not. I don't know who's 'correct' in all these assumptions, but it really makes me wonder why there isn't more consensus and since there is not, is one being too positive, are others being too negative? How much is just opinion and how are tests flawed? The teachers at the school (same school my friend's kid goes to) do seem to call the children bright on occasion, but I feel that this is sort of a generic term these days, given to most kids to bolster their self esteem. The principle, on the other hand, seemed to have no problem giving a less democratic assessment saying that my son was one of the smartest in the school. But still, I wonder what does this really mean.

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I know a dad who recently took home his child's art folder that contained most of the art he did at school for this school year. The art is sweet, age appropriate art. The kid put a lot of effort into it, had fun doing it and is proud of it. The dad keeps talking about just how good the art is, how above average it is and what a gifted artist his child is. I think it is wonderful that the dad thinks so highly of his kid, is so proud of him and so interested in what he has done at school. Is the child a gifted artist though? No. But, it doesn't really matter - what matters is that the child enjoyed it, had fun and feels proud of his work and that the dad is so proud of his child. Similarly, it doesn't matter if the other kids in the play group are gifted or not. What matters is that the kid learns to play with other kids and has fun in the process and that the parents are encouraging and inclusive.
How do you know this? Are you an artist?


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And, while my own child has consistently scored above the 100% percentile on language tests in two languages since he was a young toddler and people have made comments about him being gifted, I am a (former) teacher who doesn't find her own kid gifted.
Then why are you in this sub-forum then?
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#38 of 46 Old 06-20-2010, 01:42 PM
 
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I'm digressing here, but I am feeling compelled to point out that there is no such thing as the 100th percentile. That would mean that, if you lined 100 kids up (yours being one of the 100), that he scored higher than 100 of them (himself included). Since you cannot score higher than yourself, the 99th percentile (higher than the other 99, but not yourself) is as high as you get.

Some more sensitive tests give you the 99.9th percentile (higher than 999 out of 1000 people in a line with you being the #1 person in the line), but school achievement tests don't normally go there. I am assuming that you are meaning to indicate that your dc scored higher than needed to be in the 99th percentile. For instance, my eldest's lexile score at age 10 would have been higher than needed to be in the 99th percentile were she in 12th grade. It was still just considered the 99th for 6th grade (her grade at the time), though, not the 100th.
My son has participated in a language study at Stanford University since he was 18 mon. He has been given scores in 102, 103 and 104th percentiles. I believe they make the scores based on number of standard deviations away from the norm. So literally there is nothing over the 100th percentile because of what you described, but the scoring they gave us labeled it that way.
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#39 of 46 Old 06-20-2010, 01:57 PM
 
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Then why are you in this sub-forum then?


This thread caught my eye from the front page and I thought the topic/conversation was interesting. I'll bow out now.
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#40 of 46 Old 06-20-2010, 03:18 PM
 
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My son has participated in a language study at Stanford University since he was 18 mon. He has been given scores in 102, 103 and 104th percentiles. I believe they make the scores based on number of standard deviations away from the norm. So literally there is nothing over the 100th percentile because of what you described, but the scoring they gave us labeled it that way.
I agree with ChristaN. It is statistically impossible to have percentile scores like this. It doesn't matter how many standard deviations from the mean, these sorts of scores don't exist. It seems really odd that you received them from Stanford and I'm wondering if you possibly misread or misunderstood the information you received.
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#41 of 46 Old 06-20-2010, 06:34 PM
 
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but I really don't want her to come to anymore because her children are far from gifted
(bolding mine)

You do realize what people think when you make a statement like that, right? "Far from gifted" implies below average or perhaps barely average.

Then we hear this:

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Originally Posted by connieculkins View Post
I talked to my friend and she now thinks that her child is gifted . Apparently, her oldest maxxed out 2/3 end of the year assessments at the school with 100s (math and analysis) and is reading a couple of years ahead too. Also, he made straight As all year with little effort according to her. The principle told her that her child is one of the smartest in the school based on the results of his tests and is going to have the teacher differentiate the curriculum in the fall. Out of curiosity what do you guys think about her kid? Gifted or bright?
Between the "far from average" exaggeration, the eyeroll, the need to ask us if we think the kid is gifted...it really sounds to me like you have some competition/insecurity issues with this friend (or perhaps in general) that you might want to look at honestly and work on before trying to lead such a group.

I expect a leader of a group to be kind, warm, welcoming, and above all not competitive! I could not imagine walking into a LLL meeting and being asked how long I plan to nurse or if I supplement and then being discouraged from joining if my answers didn't line up with their standards!
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#42 of 46 Old 06-20-2010, 07:22 PM
 
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Then why are you in this sub-forum then?
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This thread caught my eye from the front page and I thought the topic/conversation was interesting. I'll bow out now.
Sigh. This thread has been about exclusion. I think the general advice leaned toward encouraging inclusion and welcoming those who want to contribute. It would be ironic if the very same real-life situation that started this entire discussion was allowed to play out here.

mamadebug, I for one hope you won't bow out unless you have nothing further you'd like to contribute to the conversation.
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#43 of 46 Old 06-20-2010, 08:17 PM
 
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Sigh. This thread has been about exclusion. I think the general advice leaned toward encouraging inclusion and welcoming those who want to contribute. It would be ironic if the very same real-life situation that started this entire discussion was allowed to play out here.

mamadebug, I for one hope you won't bow out unless you have nothing further you'd like to contribute to the conversation.
Well said.

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#44 of 46 Old 06-20-2010, 08:45 PM
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I think any time a conversation goes to a place where people are asked to justify their participation, that's a bad thing.

I am a teacher, and a parent. I do not see many gifted children in my classroom, even though I work mainly with AP and IB students, many of whom were identified as gifted in elementary school. I have one child of school age. She is gifted, but has not been identified as gifted by the school. And I'm fine with that. I know exactly why she wasn't identified as gifted on the district's testing, and I could arrange other testing which would rectify the situation at any time. But it doesn't make a lick of difference - there is no budget for gifted services, so children ID'd as gifted aren't getting anything special. Further, her gifts are not such as will be well-appreciated in her school years. Because honestly, the ability to recognize and understand the implications of generic conventions and symbolic motifs in media, however awesome that may be in a small child, doesn't get you very far in the third grade.

Her peers know she's smart. Her teachers know she's smart. She knows she's smart. She and I know that last week's homework is probably still buried at the bottom of her school bag.

Thus, I can well see why teachers can easily identify giftedness in their own children and not necessarily do as well with other people's.
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#45 of 46 Old 06-20-2010, 09:49 PM
 
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Sigh. This thread has been about exclusion. I think the general advice leaned toward encouraging inclusion and welcoming those who want to contribute. It would be ironic if the very same real-life situation that started this entire discussion was allowed to play out here.
.

Since you expressed this welcoming sentiment, I (a mom to a delightful average little boy) will share my two cents

I have two good friends who have gifted children. For one of them, I didn't even realize until very recently, it's such a social nonissue. The other I knew for a long time b/c he is so much more outgoing.

As the friend, I would understand something along the lines of being told the purpose of the group. If I decided to attend anyway, I imagine I would stop going if the discussions were not useful to me.

OTOH if my friends were rolling their eyes at me on the internet and saying they feel sorry for my far-from-gifted child, then I would like them to stop calling me.

If you keep your playgroup open, natural relationships will blossom and you could always try to get together with just a handful of Moms over dinner to discuss things like IQ's and curriculums.
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#46 of 46 Old 06-20-2010, 11:19 PM
 
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I believe all useful points have been shared on this thread. It is now closed.

HeatherB ~ mama to 3 wonderful boys:  reading.gif 03/02; modifiedartist.gif09/04; sleepytime.gif 09/07 - and Eliana, babygirl.gif 11/13/10!  
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