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#31 of 45 Old 03-13-2011, 10:56 AM
 
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I know this isn’t what you are trying to say but I do think it would be too simplistic to take away from your post that the experience a gifted child might have in school must necessarily get progressively worse as you go East as it were - in descending order from North America to Western Europe to Eastern Europe - or that there aren’t difficulties to this experience which are universal in the education systems of industrialized countries (or even that there aren’t gifted kids who enjoyed their experience with inclusive schooling in communist countries, due to high standards across the board, an emphasis on math and science and extensive enrichment in that field).

 

 

 

 



You know when you post something and think "this is too simplistically put, and this is going to bite me in the @ss?"  help.gif  As I was writing that post, with mayhem all around me IRL, I knew I should have waited until I could be more complete and drop my broad brush.  I'll summarize what I meant by saying context can be everything, and that we're each actually all in a different context.  I would be in a different context of meeting my kids' needs in the next district, nevermind in a different country.

 

I actually spend a lot of my days lately trying to control my sour stomach and absolute ire toward our school district which has as its slogan something about meeting each child's needs, which is patently false. 

 


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#32 of 45 Old 03-13-2011, 11:15 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Galatea View Post

 

I have been actively exploring what to do with my kids since taking ds1 out of PS mid-1st grade, and it has been an eye-opener.  I do think it is possible to have a good experience in school, but unless you live in an area with a ton of resources like special schools, it can be difficult to achieve.  I think that their common asynchronous development would make accommodating them in a regular school very difficult.


Yes.

 

I also think that getting an appropriate education for many kids in school (including many gifted children) takes a fair bit of commitment and advocacy on the parents part.  Not all parents are equal in the advocacy game - and advocacy can often take a fair bit of time in which is often quite hard on the child. Moreover, advocacy is something that has to be done every year - new teachers, often new administrators...sigh.

 

I work at a library and I have a very gifted young patron (grade 2).  Last year his mom advocated for him and he finally (half way through the year) got advanced math work.  This year he has had no advanced work whatsoever - the teacher is not keen.  This is a profoundly gifted child (actually the most gifted person I have ever met) and he is doing 3X3.  Yeah.  

 

My own opinion is:

-mildly gifted are probably as likely as others to have a positive experience

-moderately, profoundly and 2E children are less likely to have a good experience without

     -a variety of school choice

     -a strong parental advocator.

 

I must admit I do not want to spend much of my advocating for my child in the school system.  I have btdt, it was emotionally draining and not overly useful. With younger children I choose to HS - it is where I choose to put my energy.  I know it is not an option for everyone, and I know HSing is not perfect - but I think it is  the best of my options.  YMMV.   

 

 

 

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#33 of 45 Old 03-13-2011, 12:59 PM
 
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Yes.

 

I also think that getting an appropriate education for many kids in school (including many gifted children) takes a fair bit of commitment and advocacy on the parents part.  Not all parents are equal in the advocacy game - and advocacy can often take a fair bit of time in which is often quite hard on the child. Moreover, advocacy is something that has to be done every year - new teachers, often new administrators...sigh.

 

I work at a library and I have a very gifted young patron (grade 2).  Last year his mom advocated for him and he finally (half way through the year) got advanced math work.  This year he has had no advanced work whatsoever - the teacher is not keen.  This is a profoundly gifted child (actually the most gifted person I have ever met) and he is doing 3X3.  Yeah.  

 

My own opinion is:

-mildly gifted are probably as likely as others to have a positive experience

-moderately, profoundly and 2E children are less likely to have a good experience without

     -a variety of school choice

     -a strong parental advocator.

 

I must admit I do not want to spend much of my advocating for my child in the school system.  I have btdt, it was emotionally draining and not overly useful. With younger children I choose to HS - it is where I choose to put my energy.  I know it is not an option for everyone, and I know HSing is not perfect - but I think it is  the best of my options.  YMMV.   

 

 

 


I agree.  With my personality (tend to be very direct and forget the social lubrication), advocating for my children in PS would be extremely difficult.  I know myself enough to know that I would not be able to do it effectively and would alienate the administration.  My dh might be able to do it as he is unbelievably talented interpersonally, to the point of seeming to have mind control abilities, but even so, I don't know if this is the particular boulder I want to be pushing uphill for the next 18 years.

 


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#34 of 45 Old 03-14-2011, 01:19 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Galatea View Post




I agree.  With my personality (tend to be very direct and forget the social lubrication), advocating for my children in PS would be extremely difficult.  I know myself enough to know that I would not be able to do it effectively and would alienate the administration.  My dh might be able to do it as he is unbelievably talented interpersonally, to the point of seeming to have mind control abilities, but even so, I don't know if this is the particular boulder I want to be pushing uphill for the next 18 years.

 



I am the same. But then, the whole system here is based on not asking questions and doing as you're told as citizens, patients, parents... anyone not in a legislative function. Not really in the communist spirit, but they you are. We have moved on from communism and are now facing its "if you bribe me, I might do what you want" successor. Advocating for kids in public school? In most places, the parent is not even allowed to ENTER the school. Once, the educational standards were high across the board as someone mentioned upthread, but this country has moved on since that time. Everything about the school system makes me cringe.

 

I, in Western Europe (and much later the US) had a better experience in school; there was a multitude of different public and private school options. None of those were perfect, but some were better than others, and while my mother was not a great advocate for me because she did not know what was "wrong" and resisted testing, when decided it was time for the school to listen to her, they at least pretended. And if that did not work, there was always another school. You know, it wasn't the lack of academic stimulation that bothered me most, but the social aspect of schooling and the active discouragement of learning anything beyond what the curriculum offered.


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#35 of 45 Old 03-14-2011, 01:20 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

I work at a library and I have a very gifted young patron (grade 2).  Last year his mom advocated for him and he finally (half way through the year) got advanced math work.  This year he has had no advanced work whatsoever - the teacher is not keen.  This is a profoundly gifted child (actually the most gifted person I have ever met) and he is doing 3X3.  Yeah.  

 

 

Dreadful, what a punishment!


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#36 of 45 Old 03-14-2011, 04:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by MittensKittens View Post


 Advocating for kids in public school? In most places, the parent is not even allowed to ENTER the school. Once, the educational standards were high across the board as someone mentioned upthread, but this country has moved on since that time. Everything about the school system makes me cringe.

 

Ugh. I am so sorry, this means having the worst of both worlds...

 

Quote:

 You know, it wasn't the lack of academic stimulation that bothered me most, but the social aspect of schooling and the active discouragement of learning anything beyond what the curriculum offered.

 


Yeah, that one sounds familiar, too.

 


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#37 of 45 Old 03-14-2011, 09:00 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galatea View Post

 

I have been actively exploring what to do with my kids since taking ds1 out of PS mid-1st grade, and it has been an eye-opener.  I do think it is possible to have a good experience in school, but unless you live in an area with a ton of resources like special schools, it can be difficult to achieve.  I think that their common asynchronous development would make accommodating them in a regular school very difficult.


Our experience with public school for my highly gifted eldest daughter has not been typical, but I think it's worth mentioning because it flies in the face of your statement above. We live in a rural area served by a single small school which receives considerably less funding than an average US public school, has minimal teacher resources and is populated by kids who aren't exactly the socio-economic cream of the crop. There's no gifted program at all and no program for identification.

 

And yet the school has served my dd's needs very well. She began attending in 9th grade, part-time, in order to motivate herself to do academic work in subject areas that aren't her natural strengths or passions. She's technically considered a full-time student now, but has a ton of latitude to work at home. She was given advanced standing in all areas, was not required to take prerequisites for challenging courses, she was allowed to self-pace her way through courses as an independent study student. She tends to work through courses sequentially: her first year she did Math 10 in 6 weeks, then Science 10 in 6 weeks, then headed into Math 11 and Writing 12. They've given her credit for her extensive music studies, a creative writing portfolio, her travel-related projects. She is given time off for part-time work, for orchestral gigs, for travel within Canada and overseas, for music tours, for violin lessons, for travel to choral rehearsals -- no questions asked. There's no question that the things she takes time off for are learning-related, and they see the sense in that. She mostly makes use of their Facilitated Learning Centre which is an open classroom for independent study, staffed by a teacher and TA who float about offering assistance as students work independently on coursework, project work and computer-based courseware. She knows all her schoolmates, hangs out a bit with a couple of them, is friends with a dozen or so, has fun on class trips and at special events; she has little in common with 95% of them, but feels valued and respected by her peers there. She enjoys being a little eccentric, and feels accepted for who she is. The teachers absolutely love her. 

 

So ... even poorly-funded rural schools with no special resources or programming for gifted children can provide a good school experience for gifted kids. (At least at the high school level. My youngest would love to attend in a similar fashion, but there's not provision for independent study prior to 9th grade.) The school just needs to be open-minded and willing to make wiggle room in the rules.

 

Miranda


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#38 of 45 Old 03-14-2011, 09:17 AM
 
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I think if kids are truly highly gifted, they won't be able to have a positive school experience. Above average kids can, but higher than that, no way.

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#39 of 45 Old 03-14-2011, 09:18 AM
 
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I will say, I have found that the smaller schools with less money seem to be the best. They actually seem less distracted by the bells and whistles and more focused on the kids and individualism. We are in a huge district that cares only about football and they do not care about academics at all.
 

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Our experience with public school for my highly gifted eldest daughter has not been typical, but I think it's worth mentioning because it flies in the face of your statement above. We live in a rural area served by a single small school which receives considerably less funding than an average US public school, has minimal teacher resources and is populated by kids who aren't exactly the socio-economic cream of the crop. There's no gifted program at all and no program for identification.

 

And yet the school has served my dd's needs very well. She began attending in 9th grade, part-time, in order to motivate herself to do academic work in subject areas that aren't her natural strengths or passions. She's technically considered a full-time student now, but has a ton of latitude to work at home. She was given advanced standing in all areas, was not required to take prerequisites for challenging courses, she was allowed to self-pace her way through courses as an independent study student. She tends to work through courses sequentially: her first year she did Math 10 in 6 weeks, then Science 10 in 6 weeks, then headed into Math 11 and Writing 12. They've given her credit for her extensive music studies, a creative writing portfolio, her travel-related projects. She is given time off for part-time work, for orchestral gigs, for travel within Canada and overseas, for music tours, for violin lessons, for travel to choral rehearsals -- no questions asked. There's no question that the things she takes time off for are learning-related, and they see the sense in that. She mostly makes use of their Facilitated Learning Centre which is an open classroom for independent study, staffed by a teacher and TA who float about offering assistance as students work independently on coursework, project work and computer-based courseware. She knows all her schoolmates, hangs out a bit with a couple of them, is friends with a dozen or so, has fun on class trips and at special events; she has little in common with 95% of them, but feels valued and respected by her peers there. She enjoys being a little eccentric, and feels accepted for who she is. The teachers absolutely love her. 

 

So ... even poorly-funded rural schools with no special resources or programming for gifted children can provide a good school experience for gifted kids. (At least at the high school level. My youngest would love to attend in a similar fashion, but there's not provision for independent study prior to 9th grade.) The school just needs to be open-minded and willing to make wiggle room in the rules.

 

Miranda



 

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#40 of 45 Old 03-14-2011, 11:32 AM
 
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I think if kids are truly highly gifted, they won't be able to have a positive school experience. Above average kids can, but higher than that, no way.


I think that's a bit of a black and white declaration.  My dds are both highly gifted (with IQ test scores as well as achievement scores in the 99th percentile - 99.9th).  One of them has had mixed experiences, but with significant acceleration is having a good experience at this point.  It's not perfect and she's not being seriously challenged in many areas, but it is fairly good.  It just takes a lot more atypical accommodations in her situation.
 

 

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#41 of 45 Old 03-14-2011, 12:33 PM
 
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I think that's a bit of a black and white declaration.  My dds are both highly gifted (with IQ test scores as well as achievement scores in the 99th percentile - 99.9th).  One of them has had mixed experiences, but with significant acceleration is having a good experience at this point.  It's not perfect and she's not being seriously challenged in many areas, but it is fairly good.  It just takes a lot more atypical accommodations in her situation.


Agreed. There is nothing that points to my eldest being NOT "truly highly gifted" (with her IQ nearing the HG/PG line, achievement scores off the scale as well, plus reams of exceptional accomplishments), and her school experiences have been overall pretty positive. She's not "seriously challenged," but she's happy and she's learning, and she gets plenty of serious challenge in other areas of her life. So it's all good.

 

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#42 of 45 Old 03-14-2011, 12:35 PM
 
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Our experience with public school for my highly gifted eldest daughter has not been typical, but I think it's worth mentioning because it flies in the face of your statement above. We live in a rural area served by a single small school which receives considerably less funding than an average US public school, has minimal teacher resources and is populated by kids who aren't exactly the socio-economic cream of the crop. There's no gifted program at all and no program for identification.

 

And yet the school has served my dd's needs very well. She began attending in 9th grade, part-time, in order to motivate herself to do academic work in subject areas that aren't her natural strengths or passions. She's technically considered a full-time student now, but has a ton of latitude to work at home. She was given advanced standing in all areas, was not required to take prerequisites for challenging courses, she was allowed to self-pace her way through courses as an independent study student. She tends to work through courses sequentially: her first year she did Math 10 in 6 weeks, then Science 10 in 6 weeks, then headed into Math 11 and Writing 12. They've given her credit for her extensive music studies, a creative writing portfolio, her travel-related projects. She is given time off for part-time work, for orchestral gigs, for travel within Canada and overseas, for music tours, for violin lessons, for travel to choral rehearsals -- no questions asked. There's no question that the things she takes time off for are learning-related, and they see the sense in that. She mostly makes use of their Facilitated Learning Centre which is an open classroom for independent study, staffed by a teacher and TA who float about offering assistance as students work independently on coursework, project work and computer-based courseware. She knows all her schoolmates, hangs out a bit with a couple of them, is friends with a dozen or so, has fun on class trips and at special events; she has little in common with 95% of them, but feels valued and respected by her peers there. She enjoys being a little eccentric, and feels accepted for who she is. The teachers absolutely love her. 

 

So ... even poorly-funded rural schools with no special resources or programming for gifted children can provide a good school experience for gifted kids. (At least at the high school level. My youngest would love to attend in a similar fashion, but there's not provision for independent study prior to 9th grade.) The school just needs to be open-minded and willing to make wiggle room in the rules.

 

Miranda


I think that is awesome!  I do think, though, that it is easier to do in high school, where kids are not in one classroom with agemates, but can choose from a variety of selections, almost like in a college.  Not much help for my 7 year old.  :-)

 


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#43 of 45 Old 03-14-2011, 04:58 PM
 
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I think that is awesome!  I do think, though, that it is easier to do in high school, where kids are not in one classroom with agemates, but can choose from a variety of selections, almost like in a college.  Not much help for my 7 year old.  :-)

 


Totally agree. The "School of One" model would be very well-suited to elementary-aged kids ... but that's not the model our school uses.

 

Miranda

 


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#44 of 45 Old 03-14-2011, 06:28 PM
 
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Interesting program.  I think the plan of many groups working in one large space could be problematic for some kids though. Of course no one model would fit everyone - that's why choices are good.  

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Totally agree. The "School of One" model would be very well-suited to elementary-aged kids ... but that's not the model our school uses.

 

Miranda

 



 

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#45 of 45 Old 03-15-2011, 03:45 PM
 
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My kids attend an open plan school (there are a couple of classrooms, such as the music room) that have doors, but it's mostly open plan. It works well for a variety of students, even those with ADD or sensory issues. However, there is a 6 to 1 student teacher ratio and the amount of square feet per child is FAR greater than at a traditional school. It's not like they just took a regular school and pulled the walls out -- that would be a mess. It's really the ratio that makes the difference, well, that and the attitude toward learning.

 

Our school is different from the one linked because technology is de-emphasized. Kids aren't working though computer based learning modules, but instead of doing things with their hands -- working in the green house, creating in the art center, studying with real live teachers who are experts in their fields. It's very dynamic.

 

It works great for gifted kids as well as kids with mild special needs. It's a dream for kids who are 2E.


but everything has pros and cons  shrug.gif

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