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#61 of 77 Old 04-04-2011, 05:57 PM
 
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Doing what works well for this year has also served us well. I've always thought of it more as: Listen to your kid right now and do what works right now, instead of doing something that feels wrong now with the hopes of a positive future outcome. I see that as very much in line with attachment/gentle parenting. There are so many forces telling AP parents that what feels right today will hurt their kids in the future. "Hold that baby so much and you'll see when he's three he's going to be a total brat", "you better take control of that preschooler now or you are going to have hell to pay with a teenager", etc. What AP taught our family was to pay attention to the kid we have today rather than allowing fears of the future to make us do something that really doesn't feel right. Doing the same for our child's education seemed like a natural extension of that philosophy and for our child that has meant radical acceleration.

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#62 of 77 Old 04-04-2011, 07:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Tjej View Post

It's funny - until now in this thread I don't think I ever realized I was "accelerated" in school! :)  A bunch of us did one year up in math in 8th grade.  It was sooooo boring and awful.  A year ahead is nothing like honors classes.  It's a different pace, different needs...  The school did this instead of having honors math for 8th graders.  

 

Yeah, that wouldn't be good.  When my dds have been subject accelerated, it has been into honors or accelerated classes.  Dd12 also continued in accelerated classes (the middle school equivalent of honors) after skipping.  I don't think that the fit would have been reasonable had she not. 

 

I guess that I've not read enough of the thread to know for sure if some of the other posters are suggesting that those of us who are speaking from the experience of being parents of accelerated kids will feel differently when those kids are no longer kids, but I'm gathering that seems to be the suggestion from some.  Sure, I can't know.  I do know adults in my family who skipped as much as two grades (and started K with fall/winter bds -- so younger), who came out the other end with that having been the right decision.  I can't be sure that it will always have been the right decision for my dd, but for a kid who was between 4-12 yrs advanced in all subjects but one, where she was about 2 yrs ahead, keeping her in her age based grade, even with GT pull outs and accelerated classes, wasn't working.  I was more worried about the long-term ramifications of that including lack of study skills and work ethic.

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#63 of 77 Old 04-05-2011, 06:57 AM
 
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Saying that acceleration isn't a panacea is true - it's really more like a bandaid...nice metaphors!

 

Saying that for full-time gifted programming to be available everywhere for all age groups and all gifted abilities would be much better - true, too. It usually isn't though...

 

Looking at acceleration as a bandaid, there are actually some definable stages during schooling where it can work better than at others precisely because it makes programming for the gifted somewhat easier even without the perfect fit: in the early elementary grades, before the shock of "what am I doing here?!?" has fully settled in for gifted children, it can be very beneficial to just move them past the "learning to read and write" stage in order to get to the "reading and writing to learn" stage, at which differentiation is just so much more feasible - skipping 1st, for instance.

The same goes for early entrance into middle school or high school or college, each of which can be considered to offer more tracking or honours or accelerated classes than the school just below, with skipping in early elementary having the added advantage of the student reaching the better fit (gifted classes from third or that gifted middle school or the IB program in highschool or the dream college) one year sooner.

 

It can really be quite a finely honed tool i think, for a very specific purpose  - not just "cut one year out of that kid's education or childhood and it will make it all better".

 

 


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#64 of 77 Old 04-05-2011, 02:19 PM
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Very well articulated, Tigerle!!!  Thank you!  That was, essentially, the basis of our argument for skipping first with our daughter.


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#65 of 77 Old 04-05-2011, 04:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Tigerle View Post

Saying that acceleration isn't a panacea is true - it's really more like a bandaid...nice metaphors!


The same goes for early entrance into middle school or high school or college, each of which can be considered to offer more tracking or honours or accelerated classes than the school just below, with skipping in early elementary having the added advantage of the student reaching the better fit (gifted classes from third or that gifted middle school or the IB program in highschool or the dream college) one year sooner.

 

It can really be quite a finely honed tool i think, for a very specific purpose  - not just "cut one year out of that kid's education or childhood and it will make it all better".

 

All good points, which is why you need to include the whole picture of your child and not just one piece.

 

I would point out, however, that the Iowa Acceleration Scale (and maybe something else I read), recommends against skipping a child so they start middle school early (and maybe for high school). Their reasoning was that if middle school starts in 6th grade, a lot of work is done in 5th grade with organizational skills, expectations for juggling multiple subjects and teachers, and even practical things like how to get a locker open. If a child skips 5th grade, they go into middle school without that and might have a harder time. So, they recommend instead either skipping 4th, or 6th, but not the preparation year. I think as children get older, those preparation years are less important. So, skipping the senior year of high school makes a lot of sense for kids who are ready to move on, and they're old enough to learn a lot of those skills on their own. It's harder with a 9 year old moving up to be with 11 year olds.

 

So, you really have to think about the structure of the schools where you are.


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#66 of 77 Old 04-05-2011, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Roar View Post

Doing what works well for this year has also served us well. I've always thought of it more as: Listen to your kid right now and do what works right now, instead of doing something that feels wrong now with the hopes of a positive future outcome. I see that as very much in line with attachment/gentle parenting. There are so many forces telling AP parents that what feels right today will hurt their kids in the future. "Hold that baby so much and you'll see when he's three he's going to be a total brat", "you better take control of that preschooler now or you are going to have hell to pay with a teenager", etc. What AP taught our family was to pay attention to the kid we have today rather than allowing fears of the future to make us do something that really doesn't feel right. Doing the same for our child's education seemed like a natural extension of that philosophy and for our child that has meant radical acceleration.



You articulated this very well.  Thank you! 


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Originally Posted by LynnS6 View Post

 

I would point out, however, that the Iowa Acceleration Scale (and maybe something else I read), recommends against skipping a child so they start middle school early (and maybe for high school). Their reasoning was that if middle school starts in 6th grade, a lot of work is done in 5th grade with organizational skills, expectations for juggling multiple subjects and teachers, and even practical things like how to get a locker open. If a child skips 5th grade, they go into middle school without that and might have a harder time. So, they recommend instead either skipping 4th, or 6th, but not the preparation year. I think as children get older, those preparation years are less important. So, skipping the senior year of high school makes a lot of sense for kids who are ready to move on, and they're old enough to learn a lot of those skills on their own. It's harder with a 9 year old moving up to be with 11 year olds.

 

So, you really have to think about the structure of the schools where you are.


True, and that part lowered dd12's points on the IAS (as did her being the youngest in her grade pre-skip).  She was still an excellent candidate and did wind up skipping that 5th grade prep year to enter middle school a year early.  She was 9 (nearly 10) in with 11-12 y/os.  For my other kiddo, that might not have worked well but my oldest still got straight As and A+s.  I actually think it worked better for her b/c it made it less obvious to the other kids that she had skipped so she didn't feel like she had the spotlight on her.
 

 

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#68 of 77 Old 04-05-2011, 10:23 PM
 
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I think you're lucky to have this option to skip 1st.  We asked our school to consider a grade acceleration for DD when she started 1st.  She reads 5-6 levels above grade and is somewhere above grade level in math. She is big, early year birthday, mature, independent, etc.  But our school is strongly against grade acceleration for reasons that I cannot quite grasp.  No students have been accelerated at our school since the current principal has been there (maybe 8 years?).  So it's an uphill battle.  They do split grades and have really good teachers who are good at differentiating.  We are lucky because her current teacher is really good at differentiating, and she has had few issues, except the social (she craves more complex games).  

 

But if acceleration was an option for us, we would have jumped at it.  First grade is a good grade to skip, especially if they focus a lot on writing motor skills and endurance in K (as they did in her K).  She is big, mature, and gets on well with older kids so I wasn't worried about the social/emotional part.  

 

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#69 of 77 Old 04-06-2011, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Just received a call from the gifted program's counselor with DD's IQ score from Saturday: WISC IV GAI 150. She spent a lot of time letting me know that I'd need to spend the rest of my daughter's educational career advocating and "demanding" resources for her. That although we've been very happy with her kindy teacher she probably doesn't have expereince with or understand the needs of a child with that IQ. She thought that acceleration was a possibility but that alone wouldn't be enough. We'll be meeting with them to discuss options.

 

She did mention the EPGY program at Stanford, is anyone familiar with it? She recommended it for the math.

 

I have to say the biggest feeling I have is of relief - at least now I have a better idea of what I'm dealing with. Now if I could just find the "right" answer somewhere...

 

 

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#70 of 77 Old 04-06-2011, 10:25 AM
 
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#71 of 77 Old 04-06-2011, 10:34 AM
 
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That's similar to my eldest's score, though she wasn't tested until age 14. I would just caution you about feeling that there's a "right" answer. I know you put it in quotes, but it's very tempting to feel like there's some optimal, perfect solution that is the only thing that will serve your child properly. The reality is that there are many possible paths, even (perhaps especially) for unusual children like ours. Our family has found things that work pretty well some of which I would never have dreamed would be options but they fell into our laps and worked well, and then my kids would grow and change and some other option would occur to us and appeal, so we'd try that, and maybe it offered something better suited to their current needs or maybe not, so we'd adjust based on what we discovered. And so on, and so on. Everything is a work in progress with kids, and this is no different. We muddle along quite well on the whole.

 

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#72 of 77 Old 04-06-2011, 11:01 AM
 
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Marzine - Did they do any acheivement testing?

 

If you are in the U.S. I would strongly encourage you to have her apply to the Davidson Young Scholar program. It is free program and is great source of information and support. http://www.davidsongifted.org/youngscholars/

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#73 of 77 Old 04-06-2011, 12:34 PM
 
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That's also quite close to my youngest's score.  For her the GAI was nearly 20 pts higher than the FSIQ b/c she has average scores in working memory and processing speed.  Her older sister, whose GAI isn't as high, has actually had an easier time with school and is a higher achiever.  Do you know what your dd's WMI and PSI scores looked like?  It's been a bit of bottleneck for my youngest b/c she has deep, creative, high level thoughts, but she is prone to simple errors and just doesn't have the kind of convergent high speed output that makes it clear how able she is.  Plus she's 2e, so her achievement scores have never quite crossed that DYS mark so we're advocating on our own here.

 

eta: We aren't accelerating beyond subject acceleration for our youngest due to the 2e issues and other social factors that impact her more than they do her sister (she doesn't like that she is significantly younger and smaller than the other kids in her grade already -- we kind of snuck her around a K cut-off by starting her out of district where the cut-off was later).

 

Also, re EPGY, we've used it for math as well.  It is a fairly good program and does allow the child to move along faster than what she'd be taught in a typical classroom especially if the teacher would let her use it in replacement of some of the std curricula.  It doesn't have the goofy cartoon characters that some other online math programs use and does have a "gifted" setting where you get less repetition.  Try to sign up through their open enrollment program if you want to give it a try b/c it is significantly less expensive.  That would give you a chance to try it out with less risk.

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#74 of 77 Old 04-06-2011, 01:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Hmmm...I'm not sure what WMI and PSI are. Can you tell I'm pretty new at this? The scores I got were GAI 150, Verbal 148, Perceptual 133. The full scoring should be sent in a week or two. I did look at Davidson, I was hoping she'd score high enough to apply. They have other tests that she'd need to take as well - is anyone familiar with these?

Test Name Minimum Score Guidelines
Kaufman Test of Educational Achievement-II (KTEA-II) Standard score 145+ (99.9th percentile) on at least one of the following sections: Reading, Math or Total Battery
Wechsler Individual Achievement Test - II or Wechsler Individual Achievement Test-III (WIAT – II or WIAT - III) Standard score 145+ (99.9th percentile) on at least one of the following sections: Total Reading, Total Mathematics, Total Written Language, or Total Composite
Woodcock-Johnson Test of Achievement-III (WJ-III Ach) Standard score 145+ (99.9th percentile) on at least one of the following sections: Broad Reading, Broad Math, Broad Written Language, or Total Achievement

 

I'd really like to take advantage of their resources if possible.

 

She's not had an achievement test. I know I sound like a broken record - but - suggestions?

 

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#75 of 77 Old 04-06-2011, 01:36 PM
 
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My son did the KTEA. It was a fairly quick test. I think the one he took was considered a brief assessment, and it only took 30-40 minutes to do. It was one of the factors that let to the grade skip and enrollment in the full time gifted program as he scored 99.9 percentile in both reading and math. I don't have any full ability scoring for my son so Davidson isn't something we are looking at. If the KTEA was something I had to pay for (ours was school district administered) I probably would have chosen a bit more comprehensive test. But he seemed to like doing it. A quick look at their website shows that Kaufman has both a brief and a comprehensive version of the KTEA.

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Originally Posted by Marzine View Post

Hmmm...I'm not sure what WMI and PSI are. Can you tell I'm pretty new at this? The scores I got were GAI 150, Verbal 148, Perceptual 133. The full scoring should be sent in a week or two. I did look at Davidson, I was hoping she'd score high enough to apply. They have other tests that she'd need to take as well - is anyone familiar with these?

Test Name Minimum Score Guidelines
Kaufman Test of Educational Achievement-II (KTEA-II) Standard score 145+ (99.9th percentile) on at least one of the following sections: Reading, Math or Total Battery
Wechsler Individual Achievement Test - II or Wechsler Individual Achievement Test-III (WIAT – II or WIAT - III) Standard score 145+ (99.9th percentile) on at least one of the following sections: Total Reading, Total Mathematics, Total Written Language, or Total Composite
Woodcock-Johnson Test of Achievement-III (WJ-III Ach) Standard score 145+ (99.9th percentile) on at least one of the following sections: Broad Reading, Broad Math, Broad Written Language, or Total Achievement

 

I'd really like to take advantage of their resources if possible.

 

She's not had an achievement test. I know I sound like a broken record - but - suggestions?

 



 


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marzine View Post

Hmmm...I'm not sure what WMI and PSI are. Can you tell I'm pretty new at this? The scores I got were GAI 150, Verbal 148, Perceptual 133. The full scoring should be sent in a week or two. I did look at Davidson, I was hoping she'd score high enough to apply. They have other tests that she'd need to take as well - is anyone familiar with these?

Test Name Minimum Score Guidelines
Kaufman Test of Educational Achievement-II (KTEA-II) Standard score 145+ (99.9th percentile) on at least one of the following sections: Reading, Math or Total Battery
Wechsler Individual Achievement Test - II or Wechsler Individual Achievement Test-III (WIAT – II or WIAT - III) Standard score 145+ (99.9th percentile) on at least one of the following sections: Total Reading, Total Mathematics, Total Written Language, or Total Composite
Woodcock-Johnson Test of Achievement-III (WJ-III Ach) Standard score 145+ (99.9th percentile) on at least one of the following sections: Broad Reading, Broad Math, Broad Written Language, or Total Achievement

 

Sorry, I've been around the block a time or two, so I tend to abbreviate.  The WISC consists of four subtests: Verbal (VCI), Perceptual Reasoning (PRI), Working Memory (WMI), and Processing Speed (PSI).  If there is not a big discrepency btwn the four indices, the tester will figure a FSIQ (full scale IQ).  If you have a big difference btwn VCI or PRI and one of the other two indices, they totally drop the WMI and PSI scores and figure a GAI (general ability index). 

 

WMI and PSI aren't so much about deep thinking and "g" as are the other two.  They are the supporting skills, so to speak.  If you are brilliant but process slowly or have an avg memory, it may be harder to show that ability.  That's the spot my youngest is in.  Both her WMI and PSI were avg where her VCI and PRI scores were similar to your dds (VCI a little lower and PRI a little higher).  My oldest, on the other hand, had a very high WMI but an avg PSI.  She, too, got a GAI as a result but being low on only one of the supporting skills seems to be less of a handicap for her.  She's grade accelerated and still performs very highly in school.

 

In terms of the achievement tests you list, one of my kids has taken the WJ and the other the WIAT.  We have no experience with the KTEA.  Both the WJ and the WISC are brief assessments and shouldn't take much more time than the IQ test did.  At her age, it isn't that hard to get pretty high scores especially in the verbal parts of those tests b/c so many kids aren't reading fluently at that age.  If she reads fairly well, I'd suspect that she'd hit the DYS cut on either the WIAT or WJ in the broad/total reading area.  Even my dd12, who isn't PG, had scores with grade equivalents of 18+ at age 7 (2nd grade) on the WJ.

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#77 of 77 Old 04-06-2011, 08:39 PM
 
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 At her age, it isn't that hard to get pretty high scores especially in the verbal parts of those tests b/c so many kids aren't reading fluently at that age.  If she reads fairly well, I'd suspect that she'd hit the DYS cut on either the WIAT or WJ in the broad/total reading area.  Even my dd12, who isn't PG, had scores with grade equivalents of 18+ at age 7 (2nd grade) on the WJ.


I'd say this is true for the brief KTEA my son took as well. I was rather suprised to find his scores so high. He was reading well with good comprehension. In math he could do addition, subtraction, and really really simple multiplication. So pretty basic skills placed him above the 99th percentile in both reading and math just because at a young age 6 many of the kids are still learning these basic skills.

 


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