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#31 of 46 Old 08-22-2011, 03:09 PM
 
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My dd5 is gifted and not 2E.

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#32 of 46 Old 08-23-2011, 08:15 AM
 
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Originally Posted by whatsnextmom View Post




Like I said, I wasn't accusing anyone nor do I feel any of us should go down that road. I've just been posting on gifted message boards since my 14-year-old was 2. There is no doubt that the term PG is used more liberally now and it's no coincidence that this started shortly after the updated IQ tests came out. In fact, we used to use several levels. There was your moderately gifted, highly gifted, exceptionally gifted then profoundly gifted. Highly gifted was the point where most normal school accomodations weren't adequate. Now, we seem to jump from moderate to profound but there really is so much inbetween! 

 

I do admit to finding it frustrating at times. People have used the term with my eldest but really I don't see it. Yes, she's unusual even in the gifted community and every teacher has felt they've never had a child like her. Yes, she took her school GATE test in 20 minutes (supposed to take an hour) and got 100 percent (which has never happened.) However, if you call HER profoundly gifted at 14 when she's done well with a single full grade skip, additional subject accelerations and a flexible curriculum, what do you call a kid who at 14 is graduating college? Is that making sense?  If we give that label to kids who are comfortably working (not testing) just 2 or 3 years ahead, what do we give those who are working 10 years ahead? Then what do you call my DS who tested in the 99.9th percentile just like his big sister and he's doing just fine with a specialty language school and a year or two bump in certain subjects. I will not call either of my kids profoundly gifted but it's too bad that because I don't, there are parents who disreguard our experiences even though I know my kids were at higher working levels than the child they are describing and I might actually have some ideas that can help.  

 


 

 



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Re PG:  I think it's a confluence of factors. 

-DYS having "lowered" stated levels for PG,

-being identified as PG in verbal OR quantitative instead of FSIQ broadens the numbers,

-increased use of the GAI where kids would have been previously been exempted from PG identification due to lower processing speeds and working memory, 

-parental inflation,

-a lack of understanding or specificity in terms by users of those terms,

-increased understanding that the tail of the bell curve is bumpier than previously understood (in other words, there are more high-IQ individuals that statistical distribution would predict),

-increased media representation of gifted, and often quirky, individuals which makes it seem more common,

-increased attention in populist books on the issue (thinking Outliers and NurtureShock here, along with various newer books on achievement strategies,

the ongoing tension between anti-intellectualism and the consumerist, achievement-oriented culture wherein a gifted label confers status, and if all the kids are gifted, ones own child must be really gifted,

-the apparent declining ability of schools to offer gifted programming and differentiation, causing parents to be more dissatisfied with the educational options availalble and advocating for their gifted kids (my mom never blinked over the issue as my needs were met, while I feel like I have a part-time job advocating for my kids or homeschooling because we don't have access to other reasonable solutions).

-

 


 

I also think it depends on what assessment instrument is being used, how it's administered and by whom. There are a lot of different IQ tests in use these days. Some are more reliable and valid than others. Sometimes the assessment isn't done by an experienced psychologist/psychometrist. I suspect that unreliable testing is responsible for some of these "profoundly" gifted identifications, and also for missing the identification of many gifted children. 

 

I've also been on message boards for a long time. I can't be entirely certain, but I'm pretty sure that like whatsnextmom, I've also never used terms like "highly gifted" or "profoundly gifted" to describe my dc. I just don't find them all that useful. There can be such a blurring between the categories and in any event, I find gifted issues in education tend to have less to do with actual IQ scores and more to do with personality, attitude and environment. It reminds me a little of the outdated terms used to describe the other end of the spectrum, when "moron", "imbecile" and "idiot" all related to specific ranges on the intelligence scale (I believe 50 to 69, 30 to 49 and below 29 on the SB, respectively, if anyone is interested).  

 

To answer the OP, I have 2 dc who are identified as gifted. Neither has been formally identified as 2E. One struggled with written expression issues. The other is gifted on the Verbal Comprehension scale but scores significantly lower on most of the Perceptual Reasoning subtests, but not all. As a result, we have a fair amount of insight, or at least some familiarity, and a lot of sympathy with 2E issues.  

 

 

 

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#33 of 46 Old 08-23-2011, 08:18 AM
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My gifted child is not 2E. 

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#34 of 46 Old 08-24-2011, 05:38 PM
 
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I have one DD (who I don't post about much because she's just so happy and easy going) who is just plain gifted and a DS who is 2E (ASD, not globally gifted but gifted in math/verbal logic).  I've met plenty of both.  I do think that gifted kids learn differently, so 2E or not, and will behave and learn differently in ways both easier and sometimes harder to deal with in the context of education.


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#35 of 46 Old 08-31-2011, 07:01 PM
 
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DS tested as gifted, and he is definitely not 2E- at least nothing that has shown up yet (some LDs can show up later, I believe? He is almost 7). To be honest I was surprised at how high his tests were, he doesn't seem so obviously gifted as some other kids we know, and isn't at all that "little professor" or nerdy/quirky type. I mean, I guess he is nerdy in a way, but he's also just such a regular boys boy and gets along with other kids really well, very athletic, artistic, into fantasy play, etc. He's not an easy going kid particularly, but he's also not having any problems. My sister and I were both also IDed as gifted, my sister developed LDs later which were very poorly served by the gifted magnet school she went to. My husband was also IDed as both gifted and LD (and repeated 1st grade). So, I am around people who dealt with that I wouldn't wish it on my kids.

 

I agree that it makes sense that parents of 2E kids are posting more b/c its more of a struggle to find the right educational setting and theraputic services for them. I posted a bunch when we were doing the testing and looking at schools, and then not so much b/c DS fortunately found a place in a great school and is thriving.


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#36 of 46 Old 09-02-2011, 05:24 AM
 
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2E more common than 'just' gifted? Wow! winky.gif That's never how it seemed to work with me...My DD2 is twice-exceptional, but in the gifted class at her school (which she's in) all the other students are 'just' gifted, in a class of 15 students overall, and all but one other are 'normally' gifted, as opposed to profoundly gifted.

 

I agree with ADHD being a generally inaccurate diagnosis for gifted kids. They just can't focus on things, because they already know most of it!


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#37 of 46 Old 09-02-2011, 05:52 AM
 
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I wish there was an in-between nowadays! My DD2 is a 5 year old who's intellectually 17-if you call a 14 year old who's intellectually 16 'profoundly gifted', then what do you call DD2? If you call said 14/16yo profoundly gifted, then what's DD2's intellectually-7yo 2yo classmate and friend? And if you call your DD profoundly gifted, then what are my DD2's moderately-gifted classmates who generally work a year or two above their chronological age?

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Originally Posted by whatsnextmom View Post
Like I said, I wasn't accusing anyone nor do I feel any of us should go down that road. I've just been posting on gifted message boards since my 14-year-old was 2. There is no doubt that the term PG is used more liberally now and it's no coincidence that this started shortly after the updated IQ tests came out. In fact, we used to use several levels. There was your moderately gifted, highly gifted, exceptionally gifted then profoundly gifted. Highly gifted was the point where most normal school accomodations weren't adequate. Now, we seem to jump from moderate to profound but there really is so much inbetween! 

 

I do admit to finding it frustrating at times. People have used the term with my eldest but really I don't see it. Yes, she's unusual even in the gifted community and every teacher has felt they've never had a child like her. Yes, she took her school GATE test in 20 minutes (supposed to take an hour) and got 100 percent (which has never happened.) However, if you call HER profoundly gifted at 14 when she's done well with a single full grade skip, additional subject accelerations and a flexible curriculum, what do you call a kid who at 14 is graduating college? Is that making sense?  If we give that label to kids who are comfortably working (not testing) just 2 or 3 years ahead, what do we give those who are working 10 years ahead? Then what do you call my DS who tested in the 99.9th percentile just like his big sister and he's doing just fine with a specialty language school and a year or two bump in certain subjects. I will not call either of my kids profoundly gifted but it's too bad that because I don't, there are parents who disreguard our experiences even though I know my kids were at higher working levels than the child they are describing and I might actually have some ideas that can help.  



 


treehugger.gifgoorganic.jpg mother to micro-preemie DD1 and 2E PG DD2. Stepmother to trans DSD. Owned by acat.gif! Pregnant and due 6th June '12. cd.gifnocirc.gifbfinfant.gif

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#38 of 46 Old 09-02-2011, 07:48 AM
 
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Here's a question I've been pondering wrt 2e:

 

Where do you draw the line as a parent between "quirk" and "disorder?"

 

In our case, we've got some test scores on DS, and people who make armchair diagnoses on another board are jumping to dyselxia/ADHD/Asperger's straight off the bat because they are all over the map (they span 5 sigma on subtest scores).  Honestly, at this point, I'm looking at the scores and DS, and while a neuropsych might diagnose dyslexia with regards to his phonological abilities relative to the rest of his cognitive abilities, I suspect these will just play out as "spelling doesn't come easy."  

 

His skills are in the normal range, so the school won't label him as SLD under how they apply IDEA (and I see there's debate over that, and it doesn't appear to be applied evenly between states).  The fact that he'll have to work hard at something might be a good thing, honestly.  Based on the rest of the scores, everything else will be coming very easily for a good long time.

 

Is there something I'm missing here?

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#39 of 46 Old 09-02-2011, 09:42 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geofizz View Post

Here's a question I've been pondering wrt 2e:

 

Where do you draw the line as a parent between "quirk" and "disorder?"

 


For me, a "disorder" is something that really interferes with where your child wants to be. A "quirk" is a curiousity that might add some challenge but all in all, doesn't really interfere with the goals of the child. My youngest is "quirky." He had tons of sensitivities at the younger ages which haven't totally dissapeared but he's really good at working around them these days. He is mildly dyslexic/dysgraphic which were a trial prior to age 7. At 10, he still has to be more mindful of what he sees and writes. He does have to think harder in terms of left and right. His writing is still terrible but it's better and he can type most his work. He needs a lot of help organizationally but I have faith that age will help.

 

Basically, his quirks may drag down his overall achievement but he's still considered very advanced. It's not a road block to him, it's just that crack in the sidewalk you have to consistantly watch for so you don't trip.

 

That's just my line as a parent.

 

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#40 of 46 Old 09-02-2011, 10:26 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geofizz View Post

Here's a question I've been pondering wrt 2e:

 

Where do you draw the line as a parent between "quirk" and "disorder?"

 

In our case, we've got some test scores on DS, and people who make armchair diagnoses on another board are jumping to dyselxia/ADHD/Asperger's straight off the bat because they are all over the map (they span 5 sigma on subtest scores).  Honestly, at this point, I'm looking at the scores and DS, and while a neuropsych might diagnose dyslexia with regards to his phonological abilities relative to the rest of his cognitive abilities, I suspect these will just play out as "spelling doesn't come easy."  

 

His skills are in the normal range, so the school won't label him as SLD under how they apply IDEA (and I see there's debate over that, and it doesn't appear to be applied evenly between states).  The fact that he'll have to work hard at something might be a good thing, honestly.  Based on the rest of the scores, everything else will be coming very easily for a good long time.

 

Is there something I'm missing here?



Went and read that other thread... :)

 

You need the IQ testing done, because you're right about the limitations of what an achievement test can tell you given his environments/exposures to date.  I would also highly recommend getting his vision checked by a developmental optometrist (ie specialized).  It's relatively cheap and at least will rule out vision as an issue.  I'm suggesting this a kid can see just fine at the macro level but struggle with certain aspects of reading/close work.  The print in even picture books is going to be smaller much of the time than it is in math stuff.

 

I think quirk to disorder is a continuum, and we all would identify the dividing line slightly differently, and it might also be different depending on context (it may be a quirk at home, but a disorder in a busy classroom environment.

 

DD is just mildly quirky, but was "disordered" for a time when she was in a horrible environment for her.  Now that she's in a good environment, I don't even think she's particularly quirky. Dabrowski's OEs are sufficient to describe her, and while she's strongest verbally, she's got a pretty balanced profile.

 

DS is in the disordered end, and is at best pretty quirky in comfortable environments.  He has SPD, vision issues, dysgraphia and is on the extreme end of gifted.  I think it all interplays in his case. He does not have dyslexia/asd/adhd.  We've been trying to figure him out since he was 3 and he's in the midst of more neuropsych evals because we still don't have a full fix on what's going on and it's negatively affecting him.  It is very frustrating not having a definitive sense, but I've found it's helpful when dealing with the school to focus on what you do know.  We are a lot closer at almost 9 than we were in kindie.  I will say that the schools (he's been in 3) find it very, very difficult dealing with such a mixed profile.

 

 

 

 

 

 


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#41 of 46 Old 09-02-2011, 11:21 AM
 
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  I would also highly recommend getting his vision checked by a developmental optometrist (ie specialized).  


Done. Genetics suggests we keep doing this testing yearly.  Both kids go in to the pediatric optometrist regularly, DS was in in May and tested at age targets.  Not a smidge above, though.  And a complete hearing workup because of his history.  

 

For reasons I'm trying to understand about myself at the moment, I'm finding myself quite resistant to more testing - IQ in particular.  Some self reflection needs to be there, but in the last 2 months of waffling over his issues, I've gone from "woah, there's something wrong here" to "the poor kid needs a chance to learn in school."  There are still some other weird things about his speech patterns that have me on high alert, but they're not things that appear to be treatable in a clinical setting.  

 

That's part of the internal mommy struggle which prompted my question.

 

I'm clearly starting to question the "differential abilities" part of diagnosis criteria.  

 

Interesting perspectives, joensally and WNM.  Thanks. 

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Done. Genetics suggests we keep doing this testing yearly.  Both kids go in to the pediatric optometrist regularly, DS was in in May and tested at age targets.  Not a smidge above, though.  And a complete hearing workup because of his history.  

 

For reasons I'm trying to understand about myself at the moment, I'm finding myself quite resistant to more testing - IQ in particular.  Some self reflection needs to be there, but in the last 2 months of waffling over his issues, I've gone from "woah, there's something wrong here" to "the poor kid needs a chance to learn in school."  There are still some other weird things about his speech patterns that have me on high alert, but they're not things that appear to be treatable in a clinical setting.  

 

That's part of the internal mommy struggle which prompted my question.

 

I'm clearly starting to question the "differential abilities" part of diagnosis criteria.  

 

Interesting perspectives, joensally and WNM.  Thanks. 


Oh, I know all about the resistance and ambivalence.  I very much experienced this, but after the epically horrible kindergarten year, my thoughts shifted.  When there's a subtle interplay of things going on, with wild asynchrony and complexity, it's easier to get the testing and have things named by their right names rather than really unproductive approaches being employed.  IME.

 

And not to hyperfocus (mwa ha, vision joke), I wanted to clarify the vision thing.  When DS went to the regular optometrist, the result was simply that he was far sighted.  When he went to the developmental optometrist, we were given a further diagnosis (strabismus), which was later confirmed by an opthamologist (ie at children's hospital/surgeon level expertise).  We have not done vision therapy as I'm not convinced that the investment would be worth it, but the diagnosis has helped immensely in understanding.

 


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#43 of 46 Old 09-04-2011, 07:49 AM
 
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I'm reading this thread with a lot of interest. I've been in some kind of denial about my kid's situation, both his giftedness and the problems he's having with language, and this summer I'm gradually coming to realize that I might need to have him tested. First, there was the issue of how his second grade teacher refused to give us his standardized test results. (She also lost (!) the journal with most of his in-class written work, so I couldn't see if his writing had improved over the year.) All along I was thinking of him as a normal kid who just likes math and science a lot, and now--well, I still think that, but I'm also starting to see that I have to be a lot more proactive about school because that mathiness is maybe a little more unusual than I realized. 

 

After I finally went over enough people's heads to get the standardized test results (it took more than six months to get them!) I realized that the gap between my son's math achievement and writing achievement scores is pretty wide--but I haven't tried to figure out how many standard deviations wide, and I'm not sure whether I should, because I don't know what I should do differently with what I would learn. Like Geofizz, I'm wondering whether to think of his asynchronous development as a quirk. I guess it depends on how well he does with school in the coming quarter--whether they make any effort at all to accommodate his math gifts or whether that continues to fall on my alarmingly ill-equipped head, and whether they figure out a way to help him with writing and language arts so that he can learn without having anxious freak-outs. 

 

The only thing I know I should do is phone the speech therapist at school to ask for him to be evaluated. He has this huge, impressive vocabulary but has a lot of trouble pronouncing words, and as a result can't spell at all. Or maybe not as a result, what do I know. 


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#44 of 46 Old 09-04-2011, 04:49 PM
 
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captain optimism, I think that's a good idea to have the testing, if only because gaps in ability are really annoying to gifted kids.  My son (11 years) also has a sizable gap between language arts and math.  He was just diagnosed with ASD (being specific as to type is no longer the norm, here, but he'd definitely fall more into the Asperger's end of things).  Even without any other challenges, even if he was very "neurotypical", I think the gap would still have been frustrating.  Problems explaining your work behind your answers in math, spelling out word problems correctly and reading word problems properly can make the "fun" class (in this case math) less fun.  Also, low marks in language arts will feel even lower to a child capable of much higher grades in math and science.  The more help my son got for his reading, the less anxious freaking out we got, and a way better attitude about school. 

 

I also suggest finding and ally amongst the teachers who enjoys "mathiness" (I love that word you made!), it doesn't have to be the classroom teacher.  DS1 was very lucky to have a teacher (actually the reading recovery teacher!) who had a love for and background in math.  She was rewarding the tough reading work with doing some new things in math (at the time it was algebra, he was in grade two)once it was done, and it worked spectacularly.  I'm always encountering this weird attitude that enjoying math is almost pathological (and now that we do have a diagnoses I realize this might confirm it for some people) and it drives me crazy!  I was  one of the few girls in the national math competitions in my school, loved calculus, my uncle is a physical engineer (thermal dynamics), we have lots of scientists in the family circle, etc, so I've seen how great loving math can be.  I also know that even when not 2E, mathematical thinkers aren't the norm in our society, so finding a role model who thinks somewhat the way your son does could really help!


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#45 of 46 Old 09-04-2011, 06:23 PM
 
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Thank you so much for this! 

 

Of course I coin words for my child's math-oriented gifts, because I'm his total mirror image--a word person, an early reader, a compulsive writer. I was never confident in math. In fact I mainly empathize with his feelings about writing because they are so much like how I felt about arithmetic--the terrible anxiety about getting it wrong. He just finds math fascinating and beautiful, and being around him when he's learning new stuff is an unalloyed pleasure. He can show me the beauty, and if I didn't already appreciate everything about being a mom that would have put me over the moon all by itself. 

 

We've found a lot of adults who support his math love, but so far his teachers haven't had a clue what to do with him, except sometimes give him puzzles. His 1st and 2nd grade teacher highlighted his difficulties communicating in part because he was impatient with her for not knowing what Pascal's Triangle was. (!) We have three math professors (all female math PhDs, how's that for role models for a mathy boy, boo-yah! joy.gif) several computer programmers who delight in talking with him about infinity and the fourth dimension, and some talented math teachers--who don't teach at his school. 

 

My plan for this year is just to be vigilant and present and proactive about math enrichment/remedial writing help.

 

 

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I also suggest finding and ally amongst the teachers who enjoys "mathiness" (I love that word you made!), it doesn't have to be the classroom teacher.  DS1 was very lucky to have a teacher (actually the reading recovery teacher!) who had a love for and background in math.  She was rewarding the tough reading work with doing some new things in math (at the time it was algebra, he was in grade two)once it was done, and it worked spectacularly.  I'm always encountering this weird attitude that enjoying math is almost pathological (and now that we do have a diagnoses I realize this might confirm it for some people) and it drives me crazy!  I was  one of the few girls in the national math competitions in my school, loved calculus, my uncle is a physical engineer (thermal dynamics), we have lots of scientists in the family circle, etc, so I've seen how great loving math can be.  I also know that even when not 2E, mathematical thinkers aren't the norm in our society, so finding a role model who thinks somewhat the way your son does could really help!


 


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#46 of 46 Old 09-05-2011, 11:04 AM
 
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Sounds like he's got really great support and modelling at home.  Proactive's the way to go.  Once the school's more on board, I'm sure they'd see pretty immediate benefits.


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