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#1 of 46 Old 08-18-2011, 08:41 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Just wondering, because it seems 2E is almost more common than "just" gifted. My DD seems to be gifted with dyspraxia, and I am gifted with dyscalculia myself. 


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#2 of 46 Old 08-18-2011, 08:48 AM
 
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there are 2 (often) misdiagnosis in the gifted world, that seem to affect a lot of families.

 

1.  ADHD.  Gifted kids are often busy and often bored.  It looks like ADHD, but it is not. 

 

2.  Many gifted kids have a gap in their writing ability to everything else.  There are reasons for this  (hand dexterity develops at a normal rate compared to cognitive ability, bright young brains work quickly and hands move slowly so gifted kids are often frustrated with writing which eventually impacts output, perfectionism) 

 

 

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#3 of 46 Old 08-18-2011, 08:49 AM
 
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My son is not 2E.

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#4 of 46 Old 08-18-2011, 09:08 AM
 
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My two are not 2E.  I have wondered about my older, but I truly believe it's a case of looks-like ADHD-but-isn't. He has handled school (behavior) expectations so far without incident. He's just overflowing with energy, mental and physical.

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#5 of 46 Old 08-18-2011, 09:08 AM
 
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Lots of "just gifteds" here. There are no officially identified 2E's in our family. I suspect my brother and BIL would have owned owned a second label had they grown-up in different times. Until 4th grade, my youngest was picked out by every teacher and staff member as dyslexic and dysgraphic but outside the writing, he has since compensated so well you wouldn't know. However, that's 3 "most likely" out of 20 non-2E gifties in the identified family I can name off the top of my head.

 

I have suspicions as to why you see what you see. For starters, large quantities of gifted children have gone through some sort of testing process. You test for one thing, and often multiple labels appear. You also have to remember that most people search for boards when they are having issues. 2E kids are complicated and so the need to connect with others of similar circumstances is higher. Every variance is higher online than in person. Online, majority of kids are reported as profoundly gifted but it's rare to actually meet one in person. Online, there are tons of 2E kids but in person, they aren't nearly as common. It's still not the norm in the gifted community to be 2E but it can seem so on support boards.

 

 


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#6 of 46 Old 08-18-2011, 09:30 AM
 
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2 that are not 2E!


 

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#7 of 46 Old 08-18-2011, 10:50 AM
 
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Three that are just gifted and one that is gifted with dysgraphia. Still struggles to write his name at age almost 15, though he's immensely literate with a keyboard.

 

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#8 of 46 Old 08-18-2011, 11:53 AM
 
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One plain gifted, one 2E (but very mildly so -- but enough so that it masks his giftedness at times).


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#9 of 46 Old 08-18-2011, 12:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MittensKittens View Post

Just wondering, because it seems 2E is almost more common than "just" gifted. My DD seems to be gifted with dyspraxia, and I am gifted with dyscalculia myself. 


The more complicated and unusual the profile of  child in the population, the more likely the parents are reaching out for help and brain storming (or venting!)

 

DD is not 2E.  She's quirky, with asynchronous development, uneven skills and PG in math.  5 year old DS is undergoing testing right now for dyslexia-like issues, but it looks like he'll be coming out with "just" very high IQ with and unusual pattern of asynchronous development. 

 

The parents of the more stereotypically gifted kids in DD's gifted class know very little about the issues surrounding raising gifted kids, local laws regarding acceleration and differentiation, or the jargon that comes with all of this.  This is because they've never been so stymied by the educational limitations or difficulties in raising their kids.  The school system works for them.

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#10 of 46 Old 08-18-2011, 04:28 PM
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My middle DD seems to not be 2E, just globally gifted. 

 

My oldest is not designated gifted, but I believe she is 2E (3E  maybe more!).  Anyway, she has ADHD (not just a busy mind), and she definitely has some serious learning disabilities in math and sequencing (I strongly suspect discalculia, but have no formal diagnosis).  I am hoping that getting the ADHD under control will help her numerous strengths really shine through.


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#11 of 46 Old 08-18-2011, 07:41 PM
 
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DS2 is not 2e, just gifted.  

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#12 of 46 Old 08-18-2011, 08:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Geofizz View Post

The parents of the more stereotypically gifted kids in DD's gifted class know very little about the issues surrounding raising gifted kids, local laws regarding acceleration and differentiation, or the jargon that comes with all of this.  This is because they've never been so stymied by the educational limitations or difficulties in raising their kids.  The school system works for them.

We have found the exact same thing. My son goes to a full time gifted program with around 45 kids per class 2nd - 5th. Most of those parents have not done any of the research I have done. They haven't had to. The system, for the most part, works for them and the resources they need are available through the school. However, the parents of every single one of the 4 grade skipped kids I know have done all the research and more.

Once kids get out of the norm, even for the local gifted community, parents are often forces to seek out other resources. The two main groups being 2E and profoundly/highly gifted.

 

My son is not 2E. However, he is highly asynchronous. His writing is horrible, but I don't think he has a disability just some areas that are more age normal that show up in contrast to his areas of strength. He is in fourth and grade skipped (skipped 1st) in a high red shirting area. So he is two full years younger than the other kids and honestly has the writing ability similar to the 2nd graders who are his age.


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#13 of 46 Old 08-18-2011, 09:12 PM
 
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Quote:

Originally Posted by whatsnextmom View Post

 

You also have to remember that most people search for boards when they are having issues. 2E kids are complicated and so the need to connect with others of similar circumstances is higher.

 

 


yep.

 

One of my kids is 2E, the other is *just* gifted. I hardly ever post about the *just* gifted one. I don't have any questions, and she's a piece of cake. Anything I said about her would only sound like bragging. She's a peach. love.gif

 

My other DD is gifted and on the autism spectrum, and is unusual. One of the reasons that I stick around mothering is that I'm the mom on the special needs board with the oldest child. I sign on to mothering to be supportive of moms of little kids who are dealing with special needs, and also I check on the personal growth forum and say nice things there.

 

 


but everything has pros and cons  shrug.gif

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#14 of 46 Old 08-19-2011, 10:41 AM
 
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Originally Posted by whatsnextmom View Post

I have suspicions as to why you see what you see. For starters, large quantities of gifted children have gone through some sort of testing process. You test for one thing, and often multiple labels appear. You also have to remember that most people search for boards when they are having issues. 2E kids are complicated and so the need to connect with others of similar circumstances is higher. Every variance is higher online than in person. Online, majority of kids are reported as profoundly gifted but it's rare to actually meet one in person. Online, there are tons of 2E kids but in person, they aren't nearly as common. It's still not the norm in the gifted community to be 2E but it can seem so on support boards.

 


There is probably a lot of truth in this. I have two who are only 4 and 6, probably "just" gifted, not PG, and not 2e. However, I live in a society where grade skipping is impossible and there is no GT or accelerated program AT ALL, at any age. When you live in a society where everyone is equal, then it can make some disasters when a few are outside of the field. It is socially unacceptable to be better than anyone else in any area. So I feel the NEED to read these boards.

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#15 of 46 Old 08-19-2011, 10:45 AM
 
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Hm... sometimes these boards talk about asynchronous development like that's a special feature of Gifted kids, and personally I think variable development is a feature of many, maybe most of us (gifted or not, so not that remarkable).  Anyway, one of my kids might be gifted and have slight ADHD (yes, they are separate things for him!), and my other 2 quite bright DC don't have any SN at all.


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#16 of 46 Old 08-19-2011, 11:00 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Cavy View Post

Hm... sometimes these boards talk about asynchronous development like that's a special feature of Gifted kids, and personally I think variable development is a feature of many, maybe most of us (gifted or not, so not that remarkable).  Anyway, one of my kids might be gifted and have slight ADHD (yes, they are separate things for him!), and my other 2 quite bright DC don't have any SN at all.

I don't think there is a single child out there who develops exactly evenly or exactly at the time "the books" say they should. 


I think the distinction here is the magnitude of the asynchronicity.  For example, DS's tests out with a 4 standard deviation variation in skills.  No, most kids' math, language, and other skills do not develop at the same rate, but most 4th grade math books assume that the student can read at a 3-4 grade level.  Testing 4 sigma above the mean on a test puts that skill at ~1:10,000 rate in the population.  Having it not be matched by verbal skills makes his profile of thinking and interacting with the world even more unusual.  It's also limiting if he's unable to read words in math books written at his math level, because his reading level is, oh, 5 grade levels below that.

 

With age, I expect that these differences will diminish, with the verbal scores coming upwards, and hopefully some of the population catching up in math.  We've certainly seen this with DD.   She wasn't tested until the end of second grade, at which point the math scores were "only" 2 sigma above the verbal.  At that time, I spent a long time here, reading books, and elsewhere in the real world trying to figure out how to advocate for her and help her interact with the world.   She's grown up a lot, with her social skills coming along nicely, and she's finally got good placements in school to meet her variable needs.  I find that I'm now reading these boards with my DS in mind.  I suspect I'll fade into the background after he's been in school for a few years and we've got things figured out with some evening of the skills profile. 

 

I should note, though, that the parents IRL that have helped me the most in navigating this all are the parents of SN kids.  They are also very much aware of the complexities of raising a child with variable skills developing out of sync.  For all those awesome SN parents out there open about their experiences, I'm eternally thankful.

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#17 of 46 Old 08-19-2011, 12:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Cavy View Post

Hm... sometimes these boards talk about asynchronous development like that's a special feature of Gifted kids, and personally I think variable development is a feature of many, maybe most of us (gifted or not, so not that remarkable).  Anyway, one of my kids might be gifted and have slight ADHD (yes, they are separate things for him!), and my other 2 quite bright DC don't have any SN at all.


I agree that asychronous development is something typical of all children but they can be more pronounced in gifted children and lead to more frustration and complication.

 


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#18 of 46 Old 08-19-2011, 12:34 PM
 
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My older child may be slightly 2e, but if so, the exceptionality is mild ASD or ADHD, not an LD.

My younger child is only 3, but probably gifted, too, and I'll eat my hat if he's 2E. He's socially very adept, emotionally seems very on-track, and everything seems to just be developing together. He doesn't have nearly the same asynchronous feel as DD, though he is probably a year-2 years ahead on academic milestones.

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#19 of 46 Old 08-19-2011, 01:57 PM
 
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My kids do not have any LDs and there are none on either side of the extended family.  Most ID'd at least moderately gifted.  I don't think it has anything to do with giftedness but parents who are gifted are more likely to throw gifties and more likely to want to get to the bottom of any school issues, and also as said earlier, more likely to be looking on a board.

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#20 of 46 Old 08-20-2011, 05:28 AM
 
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DS is just plain gifted.  He tests on the lower end of the gifted range.


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#21 of 46 Old 08-20-2011, 06:28 AM
 
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My oldest is HG, my 2nd is hg/2E, my 3rd hasn't been tested yet, but she definitely isn't 2e.  She's likely HG or G-- she reached the ceiling in the reading assessment in K and the teacher is going to order a special reading curriculum for her. :)

 

So, 1/3 of mine or 2E.

 

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#22 of 46 Old 08-20-2011, 06:34 AM
 
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My kids haven't been tested, but I think the younger would test as just plain gifted and the older is probably 2E-ish (possible learning disability.)

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#23 of 46 Old 08-20-2011, 11:43 AM
 
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Originally Posted by whatsnextmom View Post
 Every variance is higher online than in person. Online, majority of kids are reported as profoundly gifted but it's rare to actually meet one in person.


I realize this will sound ungenerous, but don't you think there is a little bit of mama-pride working on that one? 

 

The statistical definition of PG is an IQ of 180+, which corresponds to fewer than 1/10^6 individuals.  So there should only be about 300 of them in the entire US (whence most posters seem to be coming), and presumably fewer than a third of those are children living at home.

 

As a seat-of-the-pants calculation, I see there are currently 200 active users on MDC.  If we assume that this represents 1% of the total users (total guess - anyone know how many registered users there are?) then there would be 20,000 registered users on MDC.  Assuming a random selection from the population and an average of 2.5 children per user (so 50,000 children), MDC would have to be ten times bigger than that to have half a chance at even one PG child among the registered users.

 

And yet I frequently see people stating that their kids - multiple kids even - are PG (or even 'not tested but likely PG,' which seems like a bizarre claim - without testing how would you possibly be able to tell whether your kid is one in a million or just one in 500,000?).

 

I definitely buy the idea that people with PG children are much more likely to be seeking out advice and assistance for their unique challenges, so it's totally believable that there are *some* PG kids among the users (and some posters do say their kids have tested as such).  Just not nearly as many as are claimed.

 

 


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#24 of 46 Old 08-20-2011, 12:29 PM
 
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I realize this will sound ungenerous, but don't you think there is a little bit of mama-pride working on that one? 

 

The statistical definition of PG is an IQ of 180+, which corresponds to fewer than 1/10^6 individuals.  So there should only be about 300 of them in the entire US (whence most posters seem to be coming), and presumably fewer than a third of those are children living at home.

 

As a seat-of-the-pants calculation, I see there are currently 200 active users on MDC.  If we assume that this represents 1% of the total users (total guess - anyone know how many registered users there are?) then there would be 20,000 registered users on MDC.  Assuming a random selection from the population and an average of 2.5 children per user (so 50,000 children), MDC would have to be ten times bigger than that to have half a chance at even one PG child among the registered users.

 

And yet I frequently see people stating that their kids - multiple kids even - are PG (or even 'not tested but likely PG,' which seems like a bizarre claim - without testing how would you possibly be able to tell whether your kid is one in a million or just one in 500,000?).

 

I definitely buy the idea that people with PG children are much more likely to be seeking out advice and assistance for their unique challenges, so it's totally believable that there are *some* PG kids among the users (and some posters do say their kids have tested as such).  Just not nearly as many as are claimed.

 

 


Well yes. I find that the definition of profoundly gifted seems to have changed. The term used to be reserved for those rare children attending the university at 10 and such. Now kids who are reading 2 or 3 years advanced in elementary are being called profoundly gifted. I do suspect there is some parental inflation here and there but I also feel the definition has changed. When the latest version of the WISC and Standford Binet came out they stopped giving IQ numbers higher than 160. 160 is now considered profoundly gifted. It used to be 160 was highly gifted. Add to it that other tests just give percentiles but normed differently from the new tests... there is a lot of room for misinformation.

 

It doesn't do anyone any good to call our people you feel who are exaggerating online. You can't prove it and really, they are only hurting themselves by asking for advice from a peer group they don't exactly belong with. I wasn't trying to accuse anyone. I was just observing that online communities always have more of the extremes than you'd see in real life.


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#25 of 46 Old 08-20-2011, 12:51 PM
 
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The school tested my older child for giftedness and placed her in a gifted program. She seems to have some mild sensory issues, but I would not call her 2E. I do not know if my younger daughter is gifted, but if she is she would not be 2E either.
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#26 of 46 Old 08-21-2011, 04:18 AM
 
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Well yes. I find that the definition of profoundly gifted seems to have changed. The term used to be reserved for those rare children attending the university at 10 and such. Now kids who are reading 2 or 3 years advanced in elementary are being called profoundly gifted. I do suspect there is some parental inflation here and there but I also feel the definition has changed. When the latest version of the WISC and Standford Binet came out they stopped giving IQ numbers higher than 160. 160 is now considered profoundly gifted. It used to be 160 was highly gifted. Add to it that other tests just give percentiles but normed differently from the new tests... there is a lot of room for misinformation.

 


I am one who has claimed "PG in math." I'm using the DYS criteria, as I'm currently contemplating if an application to DYS will help us in working with the schools with regards to DS' uneven skills. He made it to the end of the math segment in testing a few weeks ago when I had him in to test for something that looks a bit like dyslexia. That gives him a score of ">160" and a laughable grade level equivalent of 11.5. DYS labels >145 in a subject plus >145 in IQ as PG. Both my kids meet those criteria. That puts them in a population of ~1:10,000, or something unusual enough that it is possible for a teacher to never see a kid like that in his or her career.

Either way, when someone is claiming this, the message is that typical gifted services tend not to appropriately serve these kids. The statistics on the outer tail are scarce, and at some point slicing and dicing more is not useful as the variations between individuals is greater than is then reflected in these numbers.
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#27 of 46 Old 08-21-2011, 07:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by whatsnextmom View Post

 

 

I have suspicions as to why you see what you see. For starters, large quantities of gifted children have gone through some sort of testing process. You test for one thing, and often multiple labels appear. You also have to remember that most people search for boards when they are having issues. 2E kids are complicated and so the need to connect with others of similar circumstances is higher. 

 

It's still not the norm in the gifted community to be 2E but it can seem so on support boards.

 

 

 

 

This is EXACTLY why I am on here. My DDs are 2E and suspected GT. They have such a different pattern of growth/development that I have/had no resources in person of people that have faced similar situations. They also have been tested a lot over the years (not IQ, but developmentally) and gone through a few different labels to get services.

 

I know friends/families that are dealing with one or the other....but no one personally that had dealt with anything like we have. I know there are people/families/kids out there and I find it wonderful to bounce ideas/thoughts off anyone else that may or may not have been in some of the unique situations we have (like a 3.5 yr old reading fluently, but unable to ride a trike, hop, or use the potty  or a 5 yr old that can explain the different dinosaur time periods but then fall into a fit of sensory overload & tics).
 

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The more complicated and unusual the profile of  child in the population, the more likely the parents are reaching out for help and brain storming (or venting!)

 

 This is because they've never been so stymied by the educational limitations or difficulties in raising their kids.  The school system works for them.


Yes, yes.  It is frustrating to try and get an IEP for obvious areas of concern when the school is insisting it is not impacting their educational success (ok twirling around the classroom during freeplay, licking the paintbrushes, and hiding under tables doesnt impact?? WHAT?!)

 

Teachers (myself included) dont often see a kiddo with special needs that also needs both physical/social accommodations and also upwards accommodations for academics.  They tend to look at one area (advanced) or the other (areas of struggle) rather than the whole picture. They figure a bright kiddo will develop coping skills.

 



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I don't think there is a single child out there who develops exactly evenly or exactly at the time "the books" say they should. 


I think the distinction here is the magnitude of the asynchronicity. 

 

I should note, though, that the parents IRL that have helped me the most in navigating this all are the parents of SN kids.  They are also very much aware of the complexities of raising a child with variable skills developing out of sync.  For all those awesome SN parents out there open about their experiences, I'm eternally thankful.

 

 

I think my background in SN has been fabulous in navigating the GT/SN combo.  We have found great SN resources in our area and not many GT.
 

 


Really, I think kiddos that may have atypical ANYTHING may have parents that are seeking more information. So as PP suggested, you are likely to see more of them online actively.

 

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#28 of 46 Old 08-21-2011, 09:20 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Geofizz View Post



I am one who has claimed "PG in math." I'm using the DYS criteria, as I'm currently contemplating if an application to DYS will help us in working with the schools with regards to DS' uneven skills. He made it to the end of the math segment in testing a few weeks ago when I had him in to test for something that looks a bit like dyslexia. That gives him a score of ">160" and a laughable grade level equivalent of 11.5. DYS labels >145 in a subject plus >145 in IQ as PG. Both my kids meet those criteria. That puts them in a population of ~1:10,000, or something unusual enough that it is possible for a teacher to never see a kid like that in his or her career.

Either way, when someone is claiming this, the message is that typical gifted services tend not to appropriately serve these kids. The statistics on the outer tail are scarce, and at some point slicing and dicing more is not useful as the variations between individuals is greater than is then reflected in these numbers.


Like I said, I wasn't accusing anyone nor do I feel any of us should go down that road. I've just been posting on gifted message boards since my 14-year-old was 2. There is no doubt that the term PG is used more liberally now and it's no coincidence that this started shortly after the updated IQ tests came out. In fact, we used to use several levels. There was your moderately gifted, highly gifted, exceptionally gifted then profoundly gifted. Highly gifted was the point where most normal school accomodations weren't adequate. Now, we seem to jump from moderate to profound but there really is so much inbetween! 

 

I do admit to finding it frustrating at times. People have used the term with my eldest but really I don't see it. Yes, she's unusual even in the gifted community and every teacher has felt they've never had a child like her. Yes, she took her school GATE test in 20 minutes (supposed to take an hour) and got 100 percent (which has never happened.) However, if you call HER profoundly gifted at 14 when she's done well with a single full grade skip, additional subject accelerations and a flexible curriculum, what do you call a kid who at 14 is graduating college? Is that making sense?  If we give that label to kids who are comfortably working (not testing) just 2 or 3 years ahead, what do we give those who are working 10 years ahead? Then what do you call my DS who tested in the 99.9th percentile just like his big sister and he's doing just fine with a specialty language school and a year or two bump in certain subjects. I will not call either of my kids profoundly gifted but it's too bad that because I don't, there are parents who disreguard our experiences even though I know my kids were at higher working levels than the child they are describing and I might actually have some ideas that can help.  

 


Married mom of two, DD 17 and DS 13.
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#29 of 46 Old 08-21-2011, 10:11 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whatsnextmom View Post

Like I said, I wasn't accusing anyone nor do I feel any of us should go down that road. I've just been posting on gifted message boards since my 14-year-old was 2.

 

... If we give that label to kids who are comfortably working (not testing) just 2 or 3 years ahead, what do we give those who are working 10 years ahead? 

 


My experience is similar. I started posting on message boards like this since my eldest (now 17.5) was 3 or 4. She has been, on average, 2 to 5 years ahead in academic areas and has done well with part-time school, very flexible teachers, the ability to work a couple of years ahead in her weak subjects and unschooling herself in her strong areas. She too has been casually described as PG and her IQ tested at over 145. But she is nowhere near the level of a kid I knew growing up who earned a bachelors degree in both music and mathematics at age 15, and masters and doctorates in both by 19. What term do we use to describe the one-in-a-million kids if PG is now used for one-in-a-thousand kids?

 

If the general understanding of PG is that we need a term for "kids who are not generally adequately served by typical gifted services," I think that's a very loose, overly inclusive definition. It seems that many districts, particularly in the US, have gifted programming aimed at the top 3-5% of students, which is a very liberal definition of gifted in my book. It's no wonder the kids with IQs of 145 are not adequately served in pull-out programs made up largely of kids with IQs around 130 - 135. 

 

Miranda


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#30 of 46 Old 08-21-2011, 11:22 AM
 
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Re the OP:  I have one 2E (DS), and one gifted (DD). 

 

Re PG:  I think it's a confluence of factors. 

-DYS having "lowered" stated levels for PG,

-being identified as PG in verbal OR quantitative instead of FSIQ broadens the numbers,

-increased use of the GAI where kids would have been previously been exempted from PG identification due to lower processing speeds and working memory, 

-parental inflation,

-a lack of understanding or specificity in terms by users of those terms,

-increased understanding that the tail of the bell curve is bumpier than previously understood (in other words, there are more high-IQ individuals that statistical distribution would predict),

-increased media representation of gifted, and often quirky, individuals which makes it seem more common,

-increased attention in populist books on the issue (thinking Outliers and NurtureShock here, along with various newer books on achievement strategies,

the ongoing tension between anti-intellectualism and the consumerist, achievement-oriented culture wherein a gifted label confers status, and if all the kids are gifted, ones own child must be really gifted,

-the apparent declining ability of schools to offer gifted programming and differentiation, causing parents to be more dissatisfied with the educational options availalble and advocating for their gifted kids (my mom never blinked over the issue as my needs were met, while I feel like I have a part-time job advocating for my kids or homeschooling because we don't have access to other reasonable solutions).

-

 


Mom to a teenager and a middle schooler.

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