Giftedness, ADHD or both? - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 76 Old 08-09-2012, 11:28 AM
 
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To me, a "globally gifted" child would not get bored and act out.  They would be able to process what was going on around them and do just fine.  But most super high IQ kids are not in that boat.  Emotionally and socially, they are just not as advanced.  I don't think it is really boredom.  More like the inability to process.

 

A globally gifted child is a human being who might very well get bored and act out in an environment that was unsuitable, particularly when young.  Temperament is a huge variable.


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#32 of 76 Old 08-09-2012, 11:36 AM
 
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I mean no disrespect, but gifted is a term that is being seriously overused. I skipped kindergarten and 12th grade, went to college at 16, graduated when I was 19 with a science degree and two minors and I now have 3 Ph.Ds (all in hard sciences) and I'm 33 years old. I dont consider myself gifted. I was way smarter or maybe dedicated than other kids my age but gifted? I'm just saying that the term (and the things used to measure it) are suspect to me. So when someone labels your child as "gifted" it throws a kink into the realism about the situation. We all think our children are smart or gifted or advanced but the truth is that a very very small percent of the population is truly "gifted" above and beyond the rest of us. It's like winning the lottery, what are the chances? And you know, my school years were filled with boring stuff too, but I still enjoyed the process of it all and the events and such. The learning part of school is sometimes very small, so "not being able to pay attention because it's boring" also doesn't make sense to me. I remember  thinking about things in ways so it -wouldn't- be boring, making something about each lesson be a challenge to me personally. It was only in 11th grade that I decided school was wasting my time and I went to college instead, when I was way older. At 4 and 6 things were still magical.

 

Just wanted to give you the POV of someone who was labeled "gifted" but who is more realistic in understanding that doesn't really mean much at all.

 

 

It's also a small percentage who are going to skip two grades and finish that many advanced degrees.  :)

 

I wonder if, in addition to high intelligence, you also possess a great work ethic along with balanced working memory and processing speed.  IME, people with solid WM and PS think lots of things aren't a big deal because they really aren't for them.  Being out of balance with this (high quantitative reasoning/verbal ability and low WM/PS) makes for a kid that's like a ferrari with no wheels  - school is tough for these kids.  The school system has also changed a lot in the last couple of decades.  My children's experience is very different from mine -  I had a fine time, they're having a horrible time.  Some of that is that the environment is just different, and also that I have a more balanced profile and I'm just not as sensitive as they are (and believe me, for all of our sakes, I wish my kids could be less sensitive).


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#33 of 76 Old 08-09-2012, 11:53 AM
 
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OP, the way this thread has gone is an example of the rabbit hole you now find yourself in :).

 

A lot of the diagnostic process is subjective and fluid, and there's a whole lot of ideas about how to re-mediate, many of which are costly and/or onerous.  

 

With kids as young as yours, I'd re-frame the whole thing to avoid pathologizing.  Labels in school are a double-edged sword - sometimes they yield greater understanding, and sometimes it means the child is always the problem.  My re-frame would be "my daughter is very bright and has some executive functioning challenges that we're working on." 

 

OT is great.  Ask the OT for a sensory diet that meets your child's needs so that you can be working on building her self-regulation skills and where possible make her environment work better for her.  The Out of Sync Child Has Fun has great activities you can do at home for free.

 

Ask your eye person if they've studied developmental optometry, as it's a specialization in North America and a burgeoning industry, but many eye doctors have the training and can give you exercises at home if that helps with your daughters's particular condition.  This is an interesting study that points out that ADHD-type behaviours can have other causes: http://www.visionhelp.com/vh_add_05.html.  We did not do vision therapy despite having a diagnosis that would suggest it.  It was too costly, we did some home exercises, and DS outgrew it (yay!).

 

Meds are also a double-edged sword, because you end up trading one set of issues for another set of issues.  I would work on developing executive functioning skills (ADHD is just a catch-all diagnosis of various EF deficits), work on making the environment work better for her, and provide direct, explicit coaching.  Kids with attentional, sensory and processing difficulties are often overwhelmed when out in the world and miss subtleties - be really explicit about what is expected (and expected is good language - it's expected that you leave a foot between yourself and another, and unexpected that you'd be that close to someone's face while talking with them).  So, coach before going into a situation ("when the teacher asks x, remember that she's expecting y"), and de-brief afterwards ("I noticed that Bobby looked down and away when you were telling him about steam engines, I think maybe he was interested in talking about something else.").


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#34 of 76 Old 08-09-2012, 01:02 PM
 
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OP, the way this thread has gone is an example of the rabbit hole you now find yourself in :).

 

A lot of the diagnostic process is subjective and fluid, and there's a whole lot of ideas about how to re-mediate, many of which are costly and/or onerous.  

 

With kids as young as yours, I'd re-frame the whole thing to avoid pathologizing.  Labels in school are a double-edged sword - sometimes they yield greater understanding, and sometimes it means the child is always the problem.  My re-frame would be "my daughter is very bright and has some executive functioning challenges that we're working on." 

 

OT is great.  Ask the OT for a sensory diet that meets your child's needs so that you can be working on building her self-regulation skills and where possible make her environment work better for her.  The Out of Sync Child Has Fun has great activities you can do at home for free.

 

Ask your eye person if they've studied developmental optometry, as it's a specialization in North America and a burgeoning industry, but many eye doctors have the training and can give you exercises at home if that helps with your daughters's particular condition.  This is an interesting study that points out that ADHD-type behaviours can have other causes: http://www.visionhelp.com/vh_add_05.html.  We did not do vision therapy despite having a diagnosis that would suggest it.  It was too costly, we did some home exercises, and DS outgrew it (yay!).

 

Meds are also a double-edged sword, because you end up trading one set of issues for another set of issues.  I would work on developing executive functioning skills (ADHD is just a catch-all diagnosis of various EF deficits), work on making the environment work better for her, and provide direct, explicit coaching.  Kids with attentional, sensory and processing difficulties are often overwhelmed when out in the world and miss subtleties - be really explicit about what is expected (and expected is good language - it's expected that you leave a foot between yourself and another, and unexpected that you'd be that close to someone's face while talking with them).  So, coach before going into a situation ("when the teacher asks x, remember that she's expecting y"), and de-brief afterwards ("I noticed that Bobby looked down and away when you were telling him about steam engines, I think maybe he was interested in talking about something else.").

 

I think this is very well said.

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#35 of 76 Old 08-09-2012, 05:20 PM
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I mean no disrespect, but gifted is a term that is being seriously overused. I skipped kindergarten and 12th grade, went to college at 16, graduated when I was 19 with a science degree and two minors and I now have 3 Ph.Ds (all in hard sciences) and I'm 33 years old. I dont consider myself gifted. I was way smarter or maybe dedicated than other kids my age but gifted? I'm just saying that the term (and the things used to measure it) are suspect to me. So when someone labels your child as "gifted" it throws a kink into the realism about the situation. We all think our children are smart or gifted or advanced but the truth is that a very very small percent of the population is truly "gifted" above and beyond the rest of us. It's like winning the lottery, what are the chances? And you know, my school years were filled with boring stuff too, but I still enjoyed the process of it all and the events and such. The learning part of school is sometimes very small, so "not being able to pay attention because it's boring" also doesn't make sense to me. I remember  thinking about things in ways so it -wouldn't- be boring, making something about each lesson be a challenge to me personally. It was only in 11th grade that I decided school was wasting my time and I went to college instead, when I was way older. At 4 and 6 things were still magical.

 

Just wanted to give you the POV of someone who was labeled "gifted" but who is more realistic in understanding that doesn't really mean much at all.

 

  Call it what you want.  But some of our children just don't fit in the current one-size-fits-all educational system.   


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#36 of 76 Old 08-09-2012, 08:03 PM
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  Call it what you want.  But some of our children just don't fit in the current one-size-fits-all educational system.   

 

Government "schools" are most often government propaganda camps.  If you can manage it all please select another option.

 

Reading, writing and arithmetic and ESPECIALLY critical thinking, are often deliberately left  under taught and in their place we get political correctness and one world government pap.

 

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#37 of 76 Old 08-10-2012, 12:34 PM
 
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I went to public school my entire life, moved around a lot and was in some pretty "low quality" systems, too. I turned out just fine. If your kid is truly gifted or smart or whatever, they will make school what it needs to be and then fill in the rest.
 

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#38 of 76 Old 08-10-2012, 04:08 PM
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I went to public school my entire life, moved around a lot and was in some pretty "low quality" systems, too. I turned out just fine. If your kid is truly gifted or smart or whatever, they will make school what it needs to be and then fill in the rest.
 

 

You skipped grades.  That, in and of itself, is an educational intervention.  (You didn't just make yourself sit through each school year as it came to you.)   So it's ironic you took advantage of a certain intervention but are seeming to state that others shouldn't find interventions/ different solutions for their children.  


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#39 of 76 Old 08-10-2012, 04:10 PM
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Government "schools" are most often government propaganda camps.  If you can manage it all please select another option.

 

Reading, writing and arithmetic and ESPECIALLY critical thinking, are often deliberately left  under taught and in their place we get political correctness and one world government pap.

 

"Give me four years to teach the children and the seed I have sown will never be uprooted."
Vladimir Lenin

 

 

There are amazing public schools, teachers, and programs, and there are other not-so-amazing ones.  (Even in the same geographical area.)  My kids have encountered both.  


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#40 of 76 Old 08-11-2012, 12:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I turned out just fine.

That is truly good for you! I didn't though. I nearly died because of severe depression, eating disorders and self harming behaviour. it was neither nice nor beautiful. and took years of intense therapy to turn out relatively fine. as i said, i don't want my kids to suffer that much. i was always too much for everybody to handle. teachers told me that i ruined the grades for everybody around me, since i managed to do a couple of things beside lessons, including talking to my neighbours.


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#41 of 76 Old 08-12-2012, 12:09 AM
 
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I've got ADHD, and am what is considered gifted (99th percentile in IQ tests). It's actually not that uncommon to find folks who are 'twice exceptional,' but it's extra challenging. I heard a lot of "but you're so smart, why can't you do X?" where X equaled timed flashcard tests, term papers, homework, biology labs, and all sorts of other things.

 

I could not have made it through school without drugs. I cannot function in a classroom environment unmedicated. Ritalin did some fairly awful things to my body and my mental health, I have been off it for 20 years now (and yes, my family tried a number of different dietary approaches, as well as several non-drug therapies). I manage pretty well most of the time, though there are jobs I am just utterly unsuited for, and I experience challenges in my interpersonal relationships that are directly caused by the ADHD.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twice_exceptional

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#42 of 76 Old 08-13-2012, 12:37 PM
 
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Just chiming in that we recently had DS aged 7 evaluated and he is ADHD and gifted (98th percentile) so yes, it's possible to be both. While there is some overlap in the symptoms, his trouble starting tasks, constant movement, and lack of self-regulation or executive functions in pretty much all areas and environments kind of screams ADHD. Fortunately his IQ has allowed him to keep up academically, and the social skills group we've been doing privately no doubt has contributed to his having some friends (though he struggles mightily at times). I kind of feel the 2e is a double whammy--so he has all the difficulties of ADHD in dealing with the world, coupled by the boredom and detachment that the school environment can cultivate in a gifted mind. Not sure where we will go from here.


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#43 of 76 Old 08-16-2012, 02:18 PM
 
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HOWEVER, processing speed and working memory significantly below verbal and perceptual skills (assuming WISC/WISPII here) are generally taken to be an indicator of ADHD.  However, many gifted kids are verbally gifted and gifted in perceptual/spatial skills without the Ferrari engine (high WM/PSI) driving all of it.  So it can lead to some confusion in the diagnosis if the diagnostician isn't experienced with gifted kids. This becomes a bigger problem with the more gifted the child is. You can calculate the general abilities index (GAI) from the WISC subtests and compare it to the FSIQ to get a sense of how big of an issue it is. In my DD's case, the difference was "just" 15 points, and this was considered a factor of how gifted she is, not that the WM/PSI were deficient.

 

 Just wanted to comment that the local equivalent alphabet soup for the WISC/WPPSI) are HAWIK/HAWIVA. Did they give you  full report with subtests? Ask for it, if they didn't!


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#44 of 76 Old 08-18-2012, 04:04 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Sorry, english is not my mothertongue, I don't really understand your comment redface.gif

 

Do you mean that HAWIK/HAWIVA is what they use here instead of WISC/WPPSI?


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#45 of 76 Old 08-18-2012, 07:57 AM
 
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i've PM'd you! :)


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#46 of 76 Old 08-22-2012, 04:47 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Update - I just had a discussion with a special psychologist for gifted kids, and he told me that we cannot count the IQ test, because of DD visual problems. she has no 3 D vision and this visual integration problem. He said, that there are so many pictures and symbols in this test, that it's basically worthless for someone with visual problems.

 

I'll have a longer discussion when I'll have my proper appointment with him, and we have another appointment with a child's psychologist in a couple of weeks, one who I respect and regard very highly. 

I am a bit afraid that I go overboard here, don't wanna be a mom who is pushing the kids until someone calls them gifted. I suffered tremendously as a gifted child who was diagnosed but still not helped in any way, and it made my life sooo hard, and it threw me in a depression that nearly killed me. I don't want that to happen to DD.

She is in her first week of school and is already complaining that she is bored and does not want to sit that long! What can I do?!

 

@Questia: I so know what you mean! How is it going with your son now?


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#47 of 76 Old 08-22-2012, 05:56 AM
 
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I should try to get to the bottom of the vision issues before you pursue the ADHD angle any further. Vision issues can mimic ADHD. There is a whole chapter on this in  "The mislabeled Child" by the Eides (available on amazon).

 

And ignore those posters who insist that your child being "gifted" must mean she never has any educational problems, or that gifted is a useless label anyway. I always find this kind of comment a bit rich from people turning up in a forum that is called "Parenting the Gifted Child" and that explicitly states in the UA that debating the concept of giftedness is not allowed.


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#48 of 76 Old 08-22-2012, 09:46 PM
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She is in her first week of school and is already complaining that she is bored and does not want to sit that long! What can I do?!

 

 If it is possible please get her in a home school situation; your home or a shared home. Kids are not designed to sit for hours and hours; this is much of the problem with school.

 

We home schooled our kids and most days they were finished with their school tasks by noon. If they wanted an hour to run and play they were done at one. Their choice.

 

Government schools are often tedious at best. State propaganda seems to be much of what kids are supposed to "learn". No wonder the kids are bored out of their skulls.

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#49 of 76 Old 08-22-2012, 11:55 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Unfortunately we live in germany and here it's illegal to homeschool. Plus, since there are next to none homeschool families, there is not much in terms of homeschool curriculums. And - I don't feel that I am a good teacher at all. I am just like my Dad was with me, I get really impatient and tense if they don't get what I try to teach that instant. I mean I know that it's not there fault, and if it's anybodys fault than mine, but I am not very good at it.

 

Our OT already offered to work with the teachers to get a little extra program for DD including more possibilities to get physically active plus stuff to do if schoollife gets boring.

 

There is a outsourced program for gifted kids as well, the "exploration day", which is a day out of school once a week. I'll see if DD is a candidate for that.

 

@tigerle: Thank you for your encouragement! I am trying to understand the visual problems, but it's so difficult to imagine someone not really seeing, I just can't do that very well. Especially since I don't really recognize it in our day-to-day life.

 

@catnip: What did Ritalin do to your body?


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#50 of 76 Old 08-23-2012, 12:54 PM
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@tigerle: Thank you for your encouragement! I am trying to understand the visual problems, but it's so difficult to imagine someone not really seeing, I just can't do that very well. Especially since I don't really recognize it in our day-to-day life.

 

“Autistic children try to make sense of the world around them by lining up toys, sorting by color. They have to "see" objects by adding boxes together, thus "thinking in pictures. Their avoidance of eye contact is an attempt to get light to land off center in the retina where they have some rod function. Suddenly mother’s touch feels like sand-paper on their skin. Common sounds become like nails scraped on a blackboard. We think they cannot abstract, but we are sinking these children into an abstract painting at 18 months of age and they are left trying to figure out if the language they are hearing is connected to what they are looking at.”  Mary Megson, MD.

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#51 of 76 Old 08-23-2012, 02:52 PM
 
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Louisw, I really don't understand what accusing government schools of instilling state propaganda and quotes about autistic children have to do with triniity's child, which was diagnosed with vision problems and possible ADHD, not autism, and which is complaining about boredom, not propaganda.


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#52 of 76 Old 08-23-2012, 07:18 PM
 
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Louisw, I really don't understand what accusing government schools of instilling state propaganda and quotes about autistic children have to do with triniity's child, which was diagnosed with vision problems and possible ADHD, not autism, and which is complaining about boredom, not propaganda.

 

 

I feel the autism quote was appropriate given -  I am trying to understand the visual problems, but it's so difficult to imagine someone not really seeing,

 

Louisw was stating (as I am interrupting it) as how others SEE- I find the quote touching and fitting

 

 

 

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and which is complaining about boredom, not propaganda.

many who HS do view the state run education as propaganda and HS because of it- I completely get it-mindless nonsense is often propaganda and indoctrination follows-getting everyone on the same page

most children have no idea what propaganda is or if they are being fed it-sadly most adults don't either


 

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#53 of 76 Old 08-23-2012, 11:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Hi all,

I appreciate your input, but could we stop the propaganda discussion? Homeschool is not possible around here anyway. ;)


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#54 of 76 Old 08-24-2012, 07:01 AM
 
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my comment was just my view- you can't stop others from thinking

 

this thread is so negative it comes off as really trying to set an agenda and picking who should and what should be posted instead of a welcoming and open discussion-very disappointing 


 

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#55 of 76 Old 08-24-2012, 12:58 PM
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Louisw, I really don't understand what accusing government schools of instilling state propaganda and quotes about autistic children have to do with triniity's child, which was diagnosed with vision problems and possible ADHD, not autism, and which is complaining about boredom, not propaganda.

 

I was only relaying what I found profound about vision problems and POSSIBLE other problems.

 

ADHD and autism often are symptoms of vaccine induced disease. "Vaccinate" a little you may get ADHD, "vaccinate" some more you may get autism.

 

ADHD can also be many other things. Mostly it is a scam designed to put toxic useless drugs into kids; just as "vaccination" is a deadly scam designed to put toxic useless drugs into kids..

 

The CHIEF function of government schools is IMO the instillation of state propaganda. Even small children can smell propaganda and MANY find it boring.

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I was only relaying what I found profound about vision problems and POSSIBLE other problems.

 

One of the defining characteristics of autism is "they cannot look you directly in the eyes"

 

This has been interpreted as an "emotional" issue. But what if it is a simple VISION issue that has NOTHING to do with emotions? The kids with autism IMO usually have NO emotional problems. They are trapped in a body that has been drugged ("vaccinated") into such a poor functional state they must cope with actions that are interpreted as emotional.

 

The good thing is we have seen the kid is still there under the autism. IMO there are usually no emotional problems. Get rid of the mercury and aluminum and other toxins and your kid can return vision, emotions and ALL.

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#57 of 76 Old 08-24-2012, 10:23 PM
 
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Most of the drugs for ADHD are powerful stimulants. They raise your heart rate and your blood pressure. They cause a constant low level nausea, and suppress the appetite to non-existence. They exacerbate anxiety, insomnia, and OCD, all of which are common in people with ADHD.
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#58 of 76 Old 08-25-2012, 12:12 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerle View Post

I should try to get to the bottom of the vision issues before you pursue the ADHD angle any further. Vision issues can mimic ADHD. 

 

yeahthat.gif  The most common vision issue that presents like ADHD is called "convergence insufficiency".  You will know they checked for it if they used that machine where they keep switching the lenses and ask you if things look better or worse.  It is thankfully able to be worked with and usually corrected.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by catnip View Post

Most of the drugs for ADHD are powerful stimulants. They raise your heart rate and your blood pressure. They cause a constant low level nausea, and suppress the appetite to non-existence. They exacerbate anxiety, insomnia, and OCD, all of which are common in people with ADHD.

 

yeahthat.gif  And to be honest, there are so many natural ways to address the issue before having to resort to drugs that many parents resort to the drugs if only to get through the list of all the natural alternatives.  Here is a list of 5 things to rule out before an ADHD diagnosis.

 

But in this case, it really does sound like boredom.   Hugs, mama.


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#59 of 76 Old 08-25-2012, 02:59 PM
 
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I felt this was a very helpful and informative thread until it started to verge off on OT topics such as the alleged link between autism and vaccinations or state propaganda in government schools and violations of the forum rules such as calling the term gifted overused and useless or stating that a "globally" or "truly" gifted child couldn't have problems in school anyway.

No one is trying to stop anyone from thinking, but it would be simple courtesy to stick to the OP's problem, which is teasing apart whether her DD's problems stem from ADHD, lack of challenge due to a poor educational fit, visual processing problems, other sensory processing problems or some or all of the above. And now I'll shut up because I am not a moderator and I don't want to derail this thread any further either, and I really don't want to pick a fight or be negative or set an agenda in somebody else's thread.

Can we all get along and just go back to the questions the OP has been asking please? And to the fact that it has been established that her daughter has a serious visual processing issue, that has as yet (as I understand) been undiagnosed and untreated and that she has been told that giftedness cannot be established until it has - which also means, as several posters have pointed out now, that ADHD cannot be established until it has, because it is a diagnosis of exclusion. At this point, I'd truly throw all my energy into getting to the bottom of the vision issues because the child has already started first grade and the OP is already suspecting that it might stop her DD from making progress in reading and writing.

 

OP, I went over the vision chapter in "The Mislabeled Child" and it looks like it might be very helpful to you, because it focuses mostly on the kind of vision issues which aren't easibly detectable or "visible" to parents or even eye doctors, and has examples and exercises for parents to help them understand how their child might be seeing the world - and, of course exercises for the child. I'd get it ASAP  - it also has a very informative chpater about giftedness and what it might masquerade as, and what ADHD really is and isn't (and is VERY sceptical about medication - which is something I think we can ALL agree on: don't let them push you into medicating your DD, the testers advocating this on the flimsy grounds they have sound really irresponsible!)

 

Edited to add that when we were at a point when we felt unable to tell whether DS's behavioral problems were due to giftedness, ADHD, sensory processing disorder or autism we sort of took a multicausal approach: we had testing done to rule out ADHD and autism, did a round of OT, instituted a sensory diet, reduced stimulation during the workweek, talked to the preschool teachers about challenge, structure and social stressors, checked out the food and sleep angle, really worked hard to make sure he had regular protein-rich meals to ward off reactive  hypoglycemia, added supplements (vitamin D, fish oil, magnesium, zinc) to be calmer during the day and fall asleep within less than two hours of tossing and turning - I can't say which had the most input in making things better (and they got a lot better very soon) but I can tell you the thing which was least helpful: the negative resp. inconclusive testing for autism (ADHD was ruled out by the psychiatrist on the spot "if this is anything it's autism!" duh. It wasn't.


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#60 of 76 Old 08-26-2012, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thank you all for your input! I never thought about the vision problems as something that has such an input on the behaviour. I just accepted it as something that was there.

 

She is farsighted, severly, with around 7 dpt (I don't know if you have the same measurement in the us) and is squinting with one eye, which caused the loss of 3-d-vision.(even though we detected the problems when she was two and she got glasses immediatly)

the test result came rather unexpected.

 

I will get another appointment and will write an email to her eye doctor as well. We'll see where this goes.

 

I had a talk with her teacher the other day, and she is quite happy with her. The teacher is really nice and bubbly, and she likes her alot ! She says there are no problems whatsoever, she is a bit impulsive, but they are working on it, and it got already a lot better.

 

@tigerle: Thank you for the suggestions - and do you know what Raum-Lage is in english? ;) I will have a deep look into the book

 

My DH says I am getting obsessed by DDs problems and I should just wait and see. What do you guys think? I don't feel comfortable with wait and see. and want to help her!


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