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goal of music lessons

968 views 15 replies 8 participants last post by  moominmamma 
#1 ·
I am just looking at perspective regarding how our family is handling music lessons. My oldest is in 4th grade and soon to turn 10 yrs old - she has been taking piano lessons since age 6. The lessons typically go year round although the teacher takes 4 to 6 weeks off a year to travel out of country. The lessons are something my oldest wanted as well as my husband who grew up playing instruments (I have no musical background at all). My DD enjoys the lessons and wishes to continue but like many kids is not keen on practicing. I'd say she practices 3 to 4 times a week - once or twice on the weekends with my DH (these being the most productive times) and maybe 1 or twice on 2 weekdays - playing each piece 2 times, maybe a time or two more if she likes it. Typically, her practice doesn't take her very long. Currently she's mid-way though level 3 in the Alfred books (4 books - lesson, recital, technic, theory). In theory, we'd like her to practice more but I'm not up for straining our relationship over this & we don't really see piano or music as a career avenue in the future.

Anyway, I recently had a discussion with a parent (whose opinion I typically respect) who questioned (nicely) our lackadaisical attitude toward practice since we don't enforce it every day & have no routine. I know I've read on this forum and elsewhere about how music can be so beneficial to discipline and the importance to establishing a routine especially for gifted kids. It has me questioning our approach and while I don't want to be the practice enforcer, I might consider it if I can be persuaded.

The money for the lessons is not an issue for us so I have so far been happy that my DD enjoys the lessons and seems to be making some progress (although I'm sure she could be making much greater progress).

Just looking for some perspectives on what course to take.
 
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#2 ·
Both my kids take/took lessons and were pretty spotty on practice. My eldest took violin lessons for 8 years and played in her middle school orchestra. Sometimes she practiced hours a day and other times not so much. She stopped taking lessons at 13 and stopped playing entirely for awhile. At 16, she plays fiddle tunes with her grandpa and ukulele with her friends (and in her room alone while brainstorming a writing project.) My DS 13 has been taking piano since age 6 and plays the trumpet in his school band. He has to turn in practice records for band and so practices 2.5 hours a week for trumpet. Piano is more miss than hit. Seriously, we can go months without hearing him outside of lessons. He's progressing slowly but he is progressing and he doesn't want to quit. In fact, his piano teacher has abandoned her traditional tract completely because really, the only songs DS will focus and learn to perfection are Beatles songs and the likes.

My kids aren't going to be professional musicians. Their passions lie elsewhere and gobble up all their time. Does it bug me? Oh sure. Sometimes. However, both my kids enjoy playing music. They understand music. Developed good ears. Pick-up new instruments easily. They are naturally talented/skilled enough to play socially. They come from a musical family. We can all sit down and play songs together. They are lovely singers and can figure out harmonies. They both do a lot of theatre and reading music is a huge plus. They enjoy listening to music. My DD's boyfriend is a gifted jazz pianist who plays professionally at 16 and she can keep up with his conversation. No question a musical education has been valuable even though it's not been their passion and they've not committed to it like others have. They practice the things that are most important to them but that doesn't mean they aren't growing and enjoying in the areas that are lower priority.
 
#3 ·
DS1 often actively resists violin practice but insists he likes playing as such, so whenever he yells he does not want to practice or stop having lessons I remind him that he loves his teacher, his lessons, and really enjoyed playing Christmas songs with us this year (and did really well I have to say).

I also casually informed him once that I considered making music not optional in our house, that I wanted to be able to play music with my family and that he would have lessons until he was 18 after which he was free to stop them, being an adult. He considered this then said he thought he might rather like to go on even as an adult.

Now I am not Tiger Mom and I know that in a few years he will find out that there are limits to what I can enforce but do not think at 7 it's really his choice what he should learn and music is one of those things you may regret so much giving up, because at some point it is too late to catch up. And since he basically takes care of his schoolwork himself, with only minimal prompting and very moderate moaning, I figure he (and I) can handle the frustration of my insisting on 10 minutes of practice a day.

We still haven't found the right way to do it - sometimes it's great and fun for both, sometimes it's like pulling teeth and ends with one or both of us exploding, but I have found that whenever we manage to create a routine for the week that stays consistent, it works much better. Not easy with two younger siblings and two working parents and sometimes I am just too knackered in the evenings to insist, but we try.

LIke WNM's kids, it is clearly not going to be a career choice for him (though what do I know? At least it does not appear his biggest talent and certainly is not his biggest passion, though that could change once I allow him to learn the drums which is his current dream) but I want him to be able to find the pleasure and the connections I found making music, or at least give him the chance to do so.

BTW, unlike others, I have not found that music can compensate for lack of academic challenge in his schoolwork in any way, did not work for me and does not appear to work for him either. So I have a less utilitarian approach and rather consider the time freed up by his not having to practice anything in the academic line as a bonus, to be filled up with hobbies.
 
#4 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatsnextmom View Post

Both my kids take/took lessons and were pretty spotty on practice. .... Their passions lie elsewhere and gobble up all their time.
I think this is the key to whether you should take a lackadaisical attitude or be more demanding in supporting a gifted child to develop a strong diligent work ethic through music. Music is a brilliant venue in which to nurture the ability to cope with challenge, work through periods of lack of motivation, problem-solve, be diligent and realize success from that combination of abilities -- not just coasting along with natural ease. However, if your child has other passions and interests which are teaching her those same lessons, there is no need to insist that their interest in music also serve that role.

I have four kids and have taken both routes at various times with different kids. For all four, music was the first interest they really committed to and I did a lot to support them in developing those work-ethic skills during their younger years. However, for three of them as time went on other things began to consume them. The middle two were focused on instrumental music until well into their teens but then computer work, choral music and STEM academics kind of took over. For the youngest, turning 11 today, we have just reached a watershed in the past month where it feels like dance is taking over that primary-passion role, so her violin has shifted from the front to the back burner.

Miranda
 
#5 ·
Thanks for the comments. She definitely doesn't have any other passions although she's tried a wide variety of activities. For the most part, she's likes them all to a degree. Piano is definitely the longest running activity for her & I think she enjoys it. I guess I just struggle with how to support more practice without alienating her from it. The fellow mother I referenced in my initial post had recently had a DD drop the violin (she had started it within the last yr after yrs of piano - the girl was not happy with piano & was drawn to the violin). The girl enjoyed her lessons but her mom was not happy with her lack of commitment to practice (I think the girl was doing 15 minutes a day) and their relationship became strained & she ended up dropping the violin. The mom is now upset that she doesn't have any music in her life now.

Of course, I'll talk with our piano teacher but I'm uncertain how to offer more support than I do (reminders, offer to sit & listen, charts, incentives). At least in online forums, it seems like kids that age are practice 30 to 45 minutes a day and we are far from that & I'm not sure how to go about getting there. The downside to my DH's work schedule is that he is really only available on the weekends to help her practice & she seems to enjoy that (more now that in the past) b/c a lot of time, she feels she needs "help" to practice & I can't provide that.

Even with our lackadaisical approach, I can see how the lessons have helped in terms of giftedness. In school, she hardly gets work that she can't do instantly & that isn't the case in piano. She can clearly see that stuff she couldn't play at all initially is finally mastered with repetition & practice.

Any practice advice or motivational ideas welcome :)

Or is there any kid friendly articles or books on piano/piano practicing that my DD could read to help motivate her? She would be more inclined to listen to an outside source and one she can take in at & reflect on at her own pace.
 
#7 ·
She currently takes a lesson on Wed. & dad is available to help Sat. & Sun. Prior to the start of this school yr,, the lesson was on a Thurs. & that actually worked better b/c there was less time between lesson & dad help. There is a chance we can switch back to Thursdays once summer arrives. And yes, we have a weighted keyboard available.
 
#8 ·
It sounds like she's kind of aimless with her independent practicing, and gets a bit more direction when working with her dad. If so, she might benefit from a bit of a template for what a practice session should involve. For my kids a typical template might go like this:

Warm-up 1 min: ________ (simple scale or well-learned easy review piece)

Technique 2 min: _______ (new scale or arpeggio)

New repertoire work 5 min: ________ (new section or new piece)

Polishing 5 min: _______ (work on refining a piece fully learned 1-4 weeks ago)

New repertoire work 5 min: _________ (another new section or new piece)

Technique 5 min: ________ (repetitions of previously learned scales or arpeggios)

Sight-reading 5 min: _________ (rhythm reading)

Review 5 min: __________ (one or more review pieces)

Quick study 5 min: _________ (a specific easy new piece assigned to be learned in one week)

New repertoire consolidation 5 min: ___________ (repetition of last week's new repertoire)

Review 2 min: __________ (an easy review piece)

I had a set of three egg timers that ran for 1, 2 and 5 minutes respectively. After a lesson, my kids would slot their teacher's assignments and their own ideas into the blanks on a template like this. For instance, they'd write "Mozart Minuet," "B-flat major scale, hands together, 2 octaves" and "first 8 bars Kuhlau 2nd half" in the first three blanks, and fill in most of the rest of the blanks similarly. In some of the blanks they might write "dice" or "spin" (more on that later).

Part of the thing about music with gifted kids is that they can think their way to a certain level of mastery, but they need to simply do the repetitive work in order to get the learning to wear more deeply internalized pathways in their brains. So repetitions are really good: not so that a piece is played accurately, but so that it can be played accurately with less and less active thought put towards the mechanics. That's how physical patterns get really learned in as "chunks" of music, and that's how pianists can begin to turn their minds towards expressiveness and other subtle points. So I always encouraged my kids, especially on their independent practicing days, to do lots of repetitions of previously-learned things. If they didn't do much work on their new pieces during their independent days, that wasn't a huge deal, because what they were able to do was still very valuable.

With an electronic keyboard you can easily spruce the repetitions up to make them seem more progressive and less boring. If the B-flat scale only takes 30 seconds to play, do it over and over using different voices on the keyboard: once using the Piano 1 voice, then play it using Piano 2, then Electric Piano, then Organ, then Vibe, then Harpsichord.

We often used spinners or dice to make randomizing assignments more fun. For example, if the child is supposed to do 5 minutes of sight-reading from a large book of several hundred sight-reading examples, she can roll two dice to decide which page to read from, and then one die to decide which example from that page she'll play. Repeat the dice-rolling to fill the five minutes.

So for Thursday and Friday she'd do her best to work from her template, and on Saturday she and her dad could go through it and touch on the things she needs help with, and refine the practicing plan for the remaining couple of days of the week's practicing. My kids liked having six check-boxes beside each line in the template so that they had a sense of accomplishing things.

This is a lot of scaffolding, but I've been amazed at how well my kids internalized the general principles and needed absolutely no help when they reached a level of academic study where planning, organizing and goal-setting became necessary.

Cheers!

Miranda
 
#10 ·
I'm going to wander in with a slightly different perspective. I'm a non-musical parent with two kids who at varying times have been learning two instruments simultaneously. Moominmamma is a musician herself and a music instructor. When I look at that outline, I'd either need to be really on top of the pieces myself, or ask the instructor to take time out of instructional time to load the schedule (while child was learning to do this).

My kids are generally working on 3 pieces simultaneously. One they're perfecting/polishing, one they're integrating all sections/working on timing/perfecting, and one is new. The rule of thumb is they practice each piece matching their school/age grade - so grade four means practice each piece four times. We aim to practice each instrument every day, and sometimes miss a day but that still means 5 full practices in addition to lesson (and they often do a brief practice prior to lesson time). DD tends to practice longer some days when she has time, and does some composing.

If I set an egg timer that buzzed repeatedly my kids would be on the ceiling :). I do get tired of reminding them, but needing reminders is normal. Have you tried to sit down and set goals with her?

I appreciate Miranda's reminder of the muscle memory/automaticity aspects.

OP, you cite the friend whose daughter dropped violin but critiqued your lackadaisical approach to music. Doesn't sound like her style of firmness was the path to success for now. Every family is different, and every kid is different and is further different at different points in their development. I hope you find a solution that engages your child.
 
#11 ·
I think the practice routine that you have is fine, and I think you should ignore the other parent who is criticizing how you are handling practicing. My dd is very much like yours in age, and she started playing the violin at age 7.

My daughter doesn't practice violin very much. (She actually practices less often than your dd.) My dd has several friends who each practice at least ten times as many minutes each week as my dd practices. But my dd is advancing rapidly, and those friends of hers who are practicing literally hundreds of hours more per month are not making very much progress.

Part of the reason for this is because I know how to play the violin, and my dd's friends' parents do not know how to play the violin. So I can guide my dd to practice more efficiently. When kids are that young, they think that practicing is playing a piece from start to finish, stumbling through the hard parts, and then going back to the beginning and doing it again. That is a waste of time, and you are really just ingraining the mistakes, instead of learning to play the piece correctly. It is more efficient to identify the problem spots, and practice just one or two problem measures over and over again until it is correct and you develop the muscle memory for the problem spot. So you have the advantage of a husband who can play the instrument. He can ensure that the practice session is short but efficient. If your husband doesn't have time to sit down with your daughter earlier in the week to identify the problem spots with her, then you can ask your teacher to identify the problem spots during the lesson. Then just have your dd practice just those few measures for those initial days of the week until your husband has time to work with her.

Here is another example of why my dd is doing quite well even though she doesn't practice a lot. If my dd plays something wrong, I can instantly tell her what is wrong so that she can fix it right away. If one of my dd's friends plays something wrong, her parents don't realize that it is wrong and her friend plays it wrong all week long until she goes to her next lesson, and then the teacher has to point out what is wrong, and then break the bad habit before the teacher can train the child to play it correctly.

I have found that it works best if I make my daughter practice as soon as possible after the lesson, preferably on the same day as the lesson, even if it is a short practice session without dad. That way, she is most likely to remember what the teacher told her, and it will carry on into the other practice sessions for the rest of the week. It is much better if my dd doesn't wait until the day after the lesson to have that first practice session because people forget a ton of stuff even just overnight.

Last year, when my dd first started taking private lessons, I would sit in on the lesson and take meticulously detailed notes of everything that the teacher said and did. I didn't take the notes for my benefit. (I already knew all of that stuff because I know how to play the violin.) I took the notes so that when I got home, I simply gave the notes to my dd and told my dd to reproduce everything in my notes that was covered in the lesson. In this way, my dd was able to practice on her own more independently with a lot less hovering from me. (She liked the less hovering part a lot.) It worked really well for a year or so. I wish I could have continued it, but I don't have time to attend my dd's lessons any more and my husband refuses to take notes. Plus, my dd has advanced quite a lot in the year since, and she is now quite good at practicing by herself. We personally have never done the egg timers, although I can see how it would work well for some kids.

Several of my dd's teachers say that if you can't practice every day, then what you should do is practice for 20 minutes, take a break for an hour to do some homework, and then practice another 20 minutes. The teachers say that splitting up a day's practice session into two sittings is like fitting in two practice sessions on two separate days. The teachers said that they were amazed by how rapidly their students progressed when they tried this strategy.

My feeling is that I would be upset if my dd didn't practice at all, because I feel that lessons are a waste of money if there is no practicing going on between lessons. (I'm speaking as someone who did exactly that as I grew up.) But I am fine with not practicing every day. I do require a minimum level of practicing, and that's all. If my dd gets good enough and comes to enjoy violin enough, then she will start practicing everyday on her own. If you force practicing everyday, backfiring on you is certainly a possibility. You want practice to be a fun thing.

So ignore what the other parent says. As long as the teacher is happy with what your dd is doing, that is all that matters. If, on the other hand, your teacher is one of those teachers who insists on practicing an hour everyday and that is not what you are going to do, then I'd be looking for another teacher. But that doesn't seem to be an issue for you.

For the record, I don't know why the parent you were talking about was dissatisfied with 15 minutes a day. I would have been perfectly happy with 15 minutes a day. My dd practiced much less than that during the first year of playing violin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rusticity View Post

I am just looking at perspective regarding how our family is handling music lessons. My oldest is in 4th grade and soon to turn 10 yrs old - she has been taking piano lessons since age 6. The lessons typically go year round although the teacher takes 4 to 6 weeks off a year to travel out of country. The lessons are something my oldest wanted as well as my husband who grew up playing instruments (I have no musical background at all). My DD enjoys the lessons and wishes to continue but like many kids is not keen on practicing. I'd say she practices 3 to 4 times a week - once or twice on the weekends with my DH (these being the most productive times) and maybe 1 or twice on 2 weekdays - playing each piece 2 times, maybe a time or two more if she likes it. Typically, her practice doesn't take her very long. Currently she's mid-way though level 3 in the Alfred books (4 books - lesson, recital, technic, theory). In theory, we'd like her to practice more but I'm not up for straining our relationship over this & we don't really see piano or music as a career avenue in the future.

Anyway, I recently had a discussion with a parent (whose opinion I typically respect) who questioned (nicely) our lackadaisical attitude toward practice since we don't enforce it every day & have no routine. I know I've read on this forum and elsewhere about how music can be so beneficial to discipline and the importance to establishing a routine especially for gifted kids. It has me questioning our approach and while I don't want to be the practice enforcer, I might consider it if I can be persuaded.

The money for the lessons is not an issue for us so I have so far been happy that my DD enjoys the lessons and seems to be making some progress (although I'm sure she could be making much greater progress).

Just looking for some perspectives on what course to take.
 
#12 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by joensally View Post

When I look at that outline, I'd either need to be really on top of the pieces myself, or ask the instructor to take time out of instructional time to load the schedule (while child was learning to do this).

If I set an egg timer that buzzed repeatedly my kids would be on the ceiling
smile.gif
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To clarify. As a teacher I love it when students ask for a bit of help organizing their practicing because the time spent on that pays massive dividends. Seriously it's probably the most valuable 5 minutes of lesson time the student will receive.

Also when I said egg timer I meant the lovely zen like sand hourglass type. Should have clarified that. Ours are on a beautiful wooden frame and have different colours of sand. My kids loved them.

Miranda
 
#13 ·
Thanks again for all the replies - very interesting to me!

I will have my DH take a look at the practice schedule & see how he can tweak it for the "homework" DD usually gets. I do think something along these lines will be helpful as a guide/checklist - otherwise I do think aimlessness is a problem! Thanks for the template!

My goal is not to become like the friend that I mentioned in my original post. I was just afraid that she and I were at opposite ends of an extreme - her pushing too hard that the kid drops the instrument & perhaps me not pushing enough & not getting as much out of it. I was hoping perhaps there was a middle ground.

Emilysmama, your post resonated with me the most. I recognized early on that having a parent who can help with lessons is an incredible advantage. My DD is one of the teacher's better students & has advanced quicker than others who don't have any help outside the lesson. And I do recognize that when I push her to practice more, she will sometimes play a piece, especially one she likes (right now it's the Disney, A Whole New World), from start to finish cementing the mistakes until DH has the time to help her repeat areas of concern.

This post makes me realize that I am aiming less at the amount of practice but at better independent skills (having an idea/checklist of what needs to be done & working your way through it on a consistent basis, recognizing smaller areas of difficulty & breaking things down & working on them in manageable chunks). My struggles the most with creating a structure for herself & tackling things a piece at a time - something that hasn't arisen at school. We'll see if we can help her get those skills.

Again, I appreciate all the feedback. Our piano teacher is back home in Japan at the moment & won't be back until the end of Feb. In the meantime, DD has a few pieces to work on & we'll all sit down & talk it out & see if we can work something out.
 
#16 ·
We got ours at a little clock store at a mall in Calgary, Alberta, Canada a bunch of years ago. A quick google search turned up this. I have to say that while the set of three in a single frame is lovely to look at, there are certain complications that spring from the fact that all three timers run every time you turn it over. We ended up having to do a fair bit of math to keep using it for longer times immediately after running the shorter timer! Three separate hourglasses would probably have been easier to use in quick succession.

Miranda
 
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