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#1 of 12 Old 06-13-2014, 05:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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2e

New to forum. Seeking advice, I have a PG DD (6) who recently tested. her VCI is in the extended norms as is her PRI. Her WM is MG and PSI is average.

Her achievement is in 110-130 range.

She is above grade level in all areas but she has a discrepancy in excess of 50 points between writing and VCI/PRI.

School thinks we are crazy to say she has LD. The output of her work is decent. She is a fluent reader with 100% comprehension on their tests (one grade above is their limit). Her writing is very neat and nice when concentration but clearly it takes a lot from her. Every day writing shows bad letter formation and slants, disorganization.

We were fine ignoring it until tester told us it is clear in her writing that her mental ability is no showing at all.

Wanted to know of anyone has advice on advocating 2e for a child performing above grade but not to her ability.

We are in Texas of that matters
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#2 of 12 Old 06-13-2014, 09:16 PM
 
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Yes; and even with test scores in hand we've had so little luck that we're moving next year. But our district is on the "very inflexible" side, and I do have hope for the new one.

Who have you talked to at the school?

Does your school have a TAG program?

Erin, mom to DD (1/06) and DS (10/09)
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#3 of 12 Old 06-13-2014, 10:47 PM
 
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but based on what you are saying, she doesn't have a learning disability, nor is she 2E.

Because there is a big difference between her very high scores and her lower scores, certain things may be very frustrating to her. However, average scores don't make one "special needs" or "learning disabled."

Most kids, no matter how bright, write like 6 year olds when they are 6. Part of it is just fine motor development.

but everything has pros and cons  shrug.gif

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#4 of 12 Old 06-14-2014, 02:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Aurorasky View Post
New to forum. Seeking advice, I have a PG DD (6) who recently tested. her VCI is in the extended norms as is her PRI. Her WM is MG and PSI is average.

Her achievement is in 110-130 range.

She is above grade level in all areas but she has a discrepancy in excess of 50 points between writing and VCI/PRI.

School thinks we are crazy to say she has LD. The output of her work is decent. She is a fluent reader with 100% comprehension on their tests (one grade above is their limit). Her writing is very neat and nice when concentration but clearly it takes a lot from her. Every day writing shows bad letter formation and slants, disorganization.
A difference between VCI & PRI like you describe indicates that GAI should have been calculated with FSIQ.

I'm not sure what you mean by the spread between "writing" & VCI/PRI. It sounds like you might be comparing the scores from achievement & IQ testing, which aren't always directly comparable in this way.

I agree that motor skills often lag at this time, and might be inclined to just keep my eye on it. Then again, it sounds like the tester noticed something he/she felt was significant.

Here are two articles that might be of interest...

http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10782.aspx

http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10447.aspx
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#5 of 12 Old 06-14-2014, 06:42 PM
 
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My 11-year-old has handwriting that's probably typical of a 4th grader. She's working at an 8th or 9th grade level on average, so she definitely gets frustrated by the relative lag in her writing ability. But that doesn't mean she's 2E: it means she's asynchronous, with more or less age-appropriate fine-motor skills but very advanced cognitive ability. Overall she tested at a high 7th grade level for language arts this year. So yes, there's a demonstrable effect on her achievement due to the relative lag in her writing skills: she would probably test a couple of grade levels higher in language arts if her handwriting were as advanced as her cognition. But that doesn't mean she has a learning disability.

Then on the other hand there's my ds who does have a learning disability related to writing. He's intellectually in the gifted range, but with some visual processing and motor planning issues. The upshot is that his hand-writing isn't just mismatched to his intellect: it's well below the 5th percentile when compared to average kids his age. In other words, it's not just a relative lag when compared to his other abilities, it's an absolute lag that would be of concern in any kid his age.

So I'm not saying that your dd doesn't have a significant asynchrony that is frustrating and keeps her from achieving at a higher level. But unless I'm misunderstanding the extent of her challenges, it doesn't sound like she has a learning disability. I would frame your dd's issues much like my own dd's: asynchrony, rather than a learning disability.

Miranda

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#6 of 12 Old 06-15-2014, 08:13 PM
 
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I agree with PP, DS is gifted, but his handwriting is awful, and it his brain works faster than his hand, which is very frustrating. I am teaching him cursive over the summer, with the hope that not having to continuously pick up the pencil will make it easier for him. Handwriting is no longer required curriculum in Texas, schools do not have to teach children cursive either, so you might want to work with your DD outside of school. Handwriting without tears was very helpful for us for printing, so I am using it for cursive as well.

Wife to M , Mommy to DS aka Captain Obvious  (06/06) and DD aka Lissalot  (03/09, anoxic brain injury)
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#7 of 12 Old 06-16-2014, 01:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by moominmamma View Post
In other words, it's not just a relative lag when compared to his other abilities, it's an absolute lag that would be of concern in any kid his age.

So I'm not saying that your dd doesn't have a significant asynchrony that is frustrating and keeps her from achieving at a higher level. But unless I'm misunderstanding the extent of her challenges, it doesn't sound like she has a learning disability. I would frame your dd's issues much like my own dd's: asynchrony, rather than a learning disability.

Miranda

This exactly.


Many GT kiddos have areas of strengths/weaknesses- asynchrony is frustrating, but not a learning disability. You can have bright kiddos that do average in some subjects and excel in others.

GT kiddos w/ LDs perform in one or more area below what would be expected of same the average child of the same age. So scores often are below 85 Standard Scores in achievement testing (with average being 85-115 range) in a specific area (Written Expression, Reading Comprehension, etc) AND (will vary depending on your area and qualifying factors for LD) with at a 20-30 point spread from ability levels (cognitive) and/or failure to respond to RTI and still below grade level.


A slower than expected processing speed can be indicative of several things: some of them include- perfectionism, written language disability(as seen on other achievement testing), attentional concerns, fine-motor concerns, auditory processing disorders, or just a meticulous personality that takes time to do things.


Flipped letters, non-standard letter formation, and other writing concerns are developmentally OK at 6 and normal until age 7ish. Fine-motor/motor planning control is still developing, as is visual differentiation.


If it seems your daughter has a below expected writing process for a 6 year old, an occupational therapist evaluation may be beneficial. Otherwise, I would keep an eye on it. If the discrepancy seems to grow and/or if her frustration is leading to a negative loop. Then you should reevaluate.. If anything changes (and sometimes it can in leaps and bounds at that age), you can remediate as needed and/or reapproach the schools.

Last edited by KCMichigan; 06-24-2014 at 06:57 AM.
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#8 of 12 Old 06-22-2014, 10:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post
but based on what you are saying, she doesn't have a learning disability, nor is she 2E.

Because there is a big difference between her very high scores and her lower scores, certain things may be very frustrating to her. However, average scores don't make one "special needs" or "learning disabled."

Most kids, no matter how bright, write like 6 year olds when they are 6. Part of it is just fine motor development.
Hi, I"m in Texas, too. Our dd was in sped and in GT (we homeschool now, though). It was a hard sell, and the school said it was the first time to do it, they were learning, etc. There were some TEA guidance on point --

http://www.tea.state.tx.us/WorkArea/...bID=2147500363

Scroll through that to find #12

I hope your experience with Texas schools is more positive than mine was. I highly recommend that you buy a copy of From Emotions to Advocacy by http://www.wrightslaw.com

http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/2e.index.htm
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#9 of 12 Old 06-23-2014, 07:14 AM
 
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I don't know why you are quoting me and pointing me to a definition of LD. I know the definition of LD. I work with special needs kids in a school and I'm currently working my on special education teaching certificate. A child who is working at or above grade level isn't going to be diagnosed as having a learning disability. They would have to be *significantly* below grade level. How far below varies from state to state and sometimes from district to district.

This is a very bright 6 year old who writes like a 6 year old and finds it to be work. Based on that, she doesn't need special ed services.

but everything has pros and cons  shrug.gif

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#10 of 12 Old 06-26-2014, 03:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post
I don't know why you are quoting me and pointing me to a definition of LD. I know the definition of LD. I work with special needs kids in a school and I'm currently working my on special education teaching certificate. A child who is working at or above grade level isn't going to be diagnosed as having a learning disability. They would have to be *significantly* below grade level. How far below varies from state to state and sometimes from district to district..
I think there's maybe some confusion here based on some information lacking from the OP, which we have all interpretted in different ways. I see some posters recommending OT for the "writing" issue, but I don't think the OP meant handwriting. I think she's talking about achievement test scores in the area of written language.

In the OP she mentions the "VCI/PRI" being in the "extended norms", which sounds to me like >160 on the WISC IQ test. She then mentions "writing" being 110-130, which sounds to me like achievement test scoring, perhaps from the WIAT. On the WIAT, the "Written Language" section tests spelling and written expression, not just writing speed (I believe there are 5 different subtests in this area). Maybe I'm guessing wrong on what OP was trying to communicate--but if I'm reading it right, she's seeing a difference of >3 SD between projected ability and actual achievement.

The law as quoted does specifically allow a learning problem to be identified by comparing cognitive function and achievement and noting a discrepancy.

The sad fact is that most schools probably may off a large discrepancy anyway because nobody wants to spend time or money on a kid who's not bringing down test scores. That doesn't mean there might not be an issue it would benefit the child to address. As a parent, I would want further evaluation, too.

Erin, mom to DD (1/06) and DS (10/09)
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#11 of 12 Old 06-26-2014, 09:47 PM
 
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The law as quoted does specifically allow a learning problem to be identified by comparing cognitive function and achievement and noting a discrepancy.
Diagnosing a learning disability is more complex than that. The child needs to have trouble learning, they need to be disabled. The OPer's child is functioning above grade level.

The reason the definition of LD is written the way it is is to differentiate between an intellectual disability and a learning disability. It assumes that the child has a disabilty, which the OPers child doesn't. I'm a huge fan of evals and very comfortable with labels, but if a child doesn't NEED one, they really shouldn't have one.

The OPer's child isn't having any trouble with school, but she does have to WORK at writing. Needing to work at something doesn't mean that one needs special services. It means one needs to work.

Its really not a bad thing to have to work at something, and teaching young child that everything should be easy for them because they are smart does more harm than good in the long run.

but everything has pros and cons  shrug.gif

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#12 of 12 Old 08-08-2014, 12:41 PM
 
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My 10.5 year old is gifted but has ADHD and three diagnosed learning disabilities, including dysgraphia. I wish that he could "write like a six year old"...it's probably more like a five year old right at this point . Just trying to help you put things into perspective.

My advice is: don't borrow trouble. If your child is generally functioning in life, learn to ~ breathe ~ , ~ enjoy ~, and be ~ grateful ~.

sharing life with | 10 yo ds | 8 yo dd | dh (since 2012)
"I am not what happened to me...I am what I choose to become." ~ Carl Jung
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