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Giving Kids Advice for College

3K views 37 replies 14 participants last post by  moominmamma 
#1 ·
DD#2 is a junior and did extremely well on her PSATs. Although she had a college major in mind, and a few schools she was interested in, the test results and deluge of college brochures arriving in the mail addressed to her are overwhelming to her. My only goal for her is to be able to make her own choice for her own reasons. I'm sure that there will be things that she likes and dislikes about any option she chooses; I think there are pros and cons to everything.


Yet, right now she is feeling really weighed down by her potential and her options. What advice do you give your children? Or what advice would have been helpful to you in the same situation?


I was never in this situation. She gets her brains from her father, and my parents were so controlling that I didn't have any real options anyway. I really don't know what to say that will help, and what to avoid saying because it will make things even more stressful for her.
 
#2 ·
Now with the internet being a viable source of information, I'd suggest she look at the school webpages as a quick way to filter out which ones she's interested in vs not.

Does she consider all the brochures our does she have criteria that lets her just immediately get rid of some?

Is she still interested in the major and schools she was into before? Is she getting like her test scores opened up new possibilities? They can, but they don't have to. If she is happy with her previous decisions she can just stick to those. Good scores can mean amazing scholarships at some schools, and not much at others.

I'd just be willing to be a sounding board for what she thinks of each place. And support her in organizing her thoughts, whether just with that or suggesting she write her impressions down as she thinks of them.

Can you visit any of these places?
 
#3 ·
She's tossing all the brochure to schools that have any religious affiliation.


She's visited the websites for a few schools, but it seems to just confuse and overwhelm her. The more brochures arrive, the less she really looks at them or their websites.


She still wants the same major. She's a girl with high math scores that wants to go into a stem field, and some of the schools are extremely clear about wanting to recruit more young women into those programs. (Nationwide, females make up only 18% of undergrad majors in the field she wants to go into).


She is feeling like there are new possibilities, and that she has a certain amount of pressure to live up to her potential. I think she was happier when she felt like she had a few options that she understood, and now she suddenly feels like their are a lot more options, and that she has some sort of obligation to go for a big one.


We can visit some schools, especially the ones that are within a days drive. We have plans to visit one of the schools she already liked next summer, and for her to attend an academic camp at one of the other schools she already like. We are also planning a trip half way across the country to one of her picks next fall for an all day, hands on scholarship contest. Her grandmother has also offered to take her on one cross country trip to visit schools.


One of the schools that she is considering she is very familiar with because it is close to us and she's spent time there in an academic camp. They have a great program in her field, and because it's a state university in our state, she will most likely get a full tuition scholarship. However, at her high school it's kind of seen as the default school for kids who don't have a real plan and are scared to leave home. I think that part of the reason that it appeals to her is because we've moved a bunch of times, and she's sick of big transitions. None the less, she is getting A LOT of social pressure that if you don't make a big transition after high school, that you aren't living up to your potential (or something like that).
 
#4 ·
Do you know anyone who is a current college student of similar academic caliber? That could be a good person to help your daughter separate the hype from the important details. I did this for my younger brother--during my winter break, we sorted his deluge of brochures into "seriously consider" and "maybe flip through again to see if you missed anything" and "no way" piles. Because I was at a university that I'd never heard of until they sent me a brochure after the PSAT, I had a clear sense of how the marketing compared to the reality and what some of the catchphrases mean--my brother said recently that the one he remembers is, "Vibrant social life means BEER." :smile:

After my brother had narrowed down to a few colleges, he subscribed to their student newspapers by mail, to get a sense of what was going on on campus. These days you can read most of them online.

One thing that was a major consideration for my brother and me, which you might not think of, was the role of Greek organizations in campus social life. We knew we didn't want to join a sorority or fraternity because of the social game-playing, gender segregation, and emphasis on alcohol-fueled partying. We wanted to be in a place where if there were Greeks, their parties weren't the only thing happening on weekends. Some colleges publish the % of students in Greek organizations, so that was informative, along with the visibility of those groups in brochures and the number of other student organizations mentioned. I chose a medium-sized university with Greeks but also other "powerful" social groups. My brother chose a small college with no Greeks.

It was helpful for me to get a list of the "best" schools for my major that had been compiled by an organization for that profession. If your daughter wants to go into a field that's not familiar to you or your husband, try to find someone in that field who can talk with her about how to choose a good school. For example, I wanted to be an architect (although it didn't turn out that way) and it was helpful to hear from some young architects that a good school will give you a studio course and studio space with your own desk in every semester; you don't want a school that cuts corners on studio.

Later, when she has narrowed down to a few choices, I think visiting colleges in person is extremely valuable if you can possibly manage it. Summer road trip?
 
#8 ·
thank you everyone for your input! This has been helpful for me in sorting out how I feel about all this.

Do you know anyone who is a current college student of similar academic caliber?

This is a good idea. No one is coming to mind, but I'm going to think it over.

One thing that was a major consideration for my brother and me, which you might not think of, was the role of Greek organizations in campus social life.

This is a GREAT point!

It was helpful for me to get a list of the "best" schools for my major that had been compiled by an organization for that profession.
She wants to go into the same general field that her father works in, so she knows the schools and gets a ridiculous amount of input from well meaning adults. In some ways, I think it is making the process more complicated rather than easier.
On the other hand, getting into a school that is not making a big push for women, she'll know that they chose her for her mind and not her gender. It might be an environment in which she works as an equal with men, without any special attention but also without male peers who know that she's getting special attention and might hold that against her.

It's a highly gender segregated some field that still has a fair amount of sexism. The notion that departments that are highly segregated and not working to change that treat all students as equal seems naïve to me. I would rather her have a classmate wonder if her SATs were as high as the boys than have a professor who fondly remembers the days when they only girls there were just there to get their MRS.


It's the same field my husband works in. There is still a ton of sexism. She has already gotten messages from peers that it's weird that she is good that the things she is and in interested in the things she because she's a girl. We've worked to counter that, and I think she's best off in an environment that is also actively trying to counter that.

Does it bother her to feel like a minority, numerically?
It doesn't bother her, which is good, because she will be both in college and afterward, no matter where she goes. It's more of a question of would she rather be were 25% of the students studying what is are female or where 10% are female.
Does she understand that most majors are declared after Sophomore year? Does she understand that the vast majority of students change majors.... it's expected.
Does she know that the average age of grad students is 33 and that she doesn't have to commit to that path now? Does she know that the average person has 5 careers in their lifetime and that most of us aren't using our degree how it was intended?

I don't know why that is relevant. I haven't gone into what she wants to major in or why, or how much she has put into researching that because I didn't see it as relevant.


There are paths than if you want to complete in four years, you have to have your sh*t together at the beginning because the course sequencing is really tight. I don't see how reinforcing any of that would be helpful to her because she feels solid in the general direction of what she wants to study, so giving her messages that she will most likely change her mind just seems sort of mean. Having a direction gives her a criteria to help her sort through schools. Not committing to a path works best in the liberal arts, not engineering and technology. Yes, I know she could change, but for her, right now feeling sure of that part of the decision feels good.

Assign certain days in the week for college talk. A year is a long time and it's easy to fall into the trap of bringing up something college related every day.. especially with all the mail that comes in. Sitting down for a planned hour twice a week to discuss what is new and what needs to be done can be less stressful to the overwhelmed student than the daily 1 minute queries that come out of nowhere (and feels to them like constant pressure.)

I like this idea.

Run those net price calculators on every school she shows interest in right away (many will include an estimate of merit based on stats.) Nothing worse that falling for a school you can't possibly attend. We had a budget so that was one really easy way to whittle down schools... particularly those schools who looked so pretty in their unsolicited brochures. Making a list of "no's" made DD feel just as good as hitting send on an application... it was a decision!

This is a really confusing part. Before all the brochures started showing up, the plan was to apply to the 4 schools she liked, see how the financial aid played out, and then make a decision.


I wrote more, but it was rambly and didn't' make sense. I think this is part of the problem right now is that we aren't sure how to rule out schools.

Have her apply to an early action or rolling admissions school. It doesn't have to be high on her list. It can just be some nice little safety school with some appealing program or aspect. Having a school in hand can make the application season much less stressful.

I think we will have her apply for the state uni down the street ASAP. She's a sure admit, and they have a solid program in her area of interest. I would really like to see her less stressed.

Sometimes giving up some points on the US News Ranking can mean more personal attention, more opportunities.

We focus more on the reputation for undergraduate teaching and ties to current industry practices rather than the big names. We are also fortunate to know what schools are considered highly in the field for initial hiring and for graduate school applications, which isn't the same as some of the bigger names, which tend to be known for their graduate research programs. Actually, on her previous list of 4 schools, most people have never heard of 2 of them, and the one of them people would just scratch their heads and wonder why. (They have a great program in what she is interested in and deep pockets).

I fully expected to get into all of them, which I did. I can't even remember being stressed.
I don't think she is stressed about getting in, I think she is stressed about making a decision she will be happy with later.



 
#5 ·
I set this thread aside in a separate tab while I was pumping, so I missed your second post until I had posted mine. I'm glad you have plans for visiting.

She's a girl with high math scores that wants to go into a stem field, and some of the schools are extremely clear about wanting to recruit more young women into those programs.
This is a really interesting issue. Sorting out her feelings about it will help her narrow her choices.

On the one hand, a school that is actively recruiting women may offer better scholarships and other helpful perks. There may be mentors, lectures, etc. that support her as a woman in her profession. That could be helpful and empowering.

On the other hand, getting into a school that is not making a big push for women, she'll know that they chose her for her mind and not her gender. It might be an environment in which she works as an equal with men, without any special attention but also without male peers who know that she's getting special attention and might hold that against her.

It really comes down to the environment at the particular campus, more than an either/or choice. The question for her is, "How do I want to be treated and viewed as a woman in this field, and which school is most like that?" Related questions: Does it bother her to feel like a minority, numerically? Does she like special supports or feel suspicious of them? Does she prefer female colleagues and friends? How does she react if she feels pushed around by guys? What are the specifics of each woman-recruiting program, and how does she feel about them?
 
#6 · (Edited)
The application process was totally overwhelming to my DD despite having spent two years in community college duel enrollment. It was the most painful process.

For starters, try to flush out the misconceptions. You might be surprised at what she knows in theory but doesn't believe actually apply to her. Does she understand that most majors are declared after Sophomore year? Does she understand that the vast majority of students change majors.... it's expected. Does she know that the average age of grad students is 33 and that she doesn't have to commit to that path now? Does she know that the average person has 5 careers in their lifetime and that most of us aren't using our degree how it was intended? This type of stuff all seems obvious but it's worth reinforcing because it's the opposite of what most of her peers will be feeding her for the next year.

Assign certain days in the week for college talk. A year is a long time and it's easy to fall into the trap of bringing up something college related every day.. especially with all the mail that comes in. Sitting down for a planned hour twice a week to discuss what is new and what needs to be done can be less stressful to the overwhelmed student than the daily 1 minute queries that come out of nowhere (and feels to them like constant pressure.)

Run those net price calculators on every school she shows interest in right away (many will include an estimate of merit based on stats.) Nothing worse that falling for a school you can't possibly attend. We had a budget so that was one really easy way to whittle down schools... particularly those schools who looked so pretty in their unsolicited brochures. Making a list of "no's" made DD feel just as good as hitting send on an application... it was a decision!

Have her apply to an early action or rolling admissions school. It doesn't have to be high on her list. It can just be some nice little safety school with some appealing program or aspect. Having a school in hand can make the application season much less stressful.

Get creative with the essays if she finds it hard to find her voice. I couldn't believe how hard this was for DD who has always been a gifted writer. Journaling, timed writing, stream of conscience writing, dictation, writing in biography style on herself, poetry... we used all these techniques to loosen her up. Her end products were still far from her best works but at one point, she just needed to be done. As a parent of an over-achieving perfectionist, you have to know when to just say "this is fantastic" and let it ride.

Fit over reputation, fit over reputation. You get high test scores and you've got Harvard and Yale sending you lovely packets begging you to apply... like they need to advertise. That doesn't mean Harvard and Yale are the best fits. Sometimes giving up some points on the US News Ranking can mean more personal attention, more opportunities.

Understand that there will be anxieties they might not be able to express until long after. Hopefully, it won't be as trying an experience for you and DD. I'm always jealous of the families for which it's "no big deal." Digging up your old applications is good for stress relief. I found one of mine and it was laughable. My stats were excellent for the time but rather low for those school now. It was hand written and mailed in. I applied to 4 schools. I fully expected to get into all of them, which I did. I can't even remember being stressed.
 
#7 ·
Suggest that your daughter read some on-line blogs.

For example, if you google "MIT Admissions blogs applications", you eventually get to this website:
http://mitadmissions.org/apply/process/selection
Then scroll down to the bottom and there are some links to some very nice blogs that the Admissions Office posts for their applicants to make the application process more transparent. And take a look at the admissions office website.
So there are some informative blogs that students write, and some blogs that the Admissions Office staff write: http://mitadmissions.org/blogs
There are some videos that give a little taste of the campus: http://mitadmissions.org/follow/feature-films

I'm told that the high school students tell the MIT admissions office that their blog posts are very helpful.

Perhaps other colleges have something similar.
 
#9 ·
Yes, Greek life or lack thereof is something to seriously consider.

I suggest applying to a range of schools. If there's one she really likes but thinks it's out of her reach financially, still apply to it. You don't know until you get an offer.

You answered something I was wondering, which is if you knew what schools were sought after by industry and grad schools. That is big too.

So I would narrow it down from
Schools with good reputation
Schools with good cultural fit
Schools she likes best

I could be wrong, but if you can already narrow it down to schools that are respected in the field, there can't be that huge of a number. I understand she can be stressed about however many even if it's not a lot. But that's a place to start.

On the other hand if she feels that there is a school that is right for her but it's not on that insider list of sought after schools, it might be a great place for her. I just wouldn't stress about seeking that place out unless she isn't feeling it with any on the list.
So much of it is going with your gut. Research well. But if she makes a decision that just feels right, I think even if she has hindsight being 20/20 later she'll feel good about her decision.
 
#10 ·
How well is "extremely well" on the PSATs? If she ends up being a National Merit Finalist, the University of Oklahoma offers a huge scholarship (almost free-ride) to all Nat'l Merit Finalists who go there.

http://www.ou.edu/go2/connect/nationalmerit.html

Hopefully her counselor has talked to her about continuing on the process to become a National Merit Finalist. I know she will also need to take the SAT as part of the process, if she hasn't already.

I would also suggest Rice University (in Houston). It's a lovely, not-too-big campus, and 35% of their engineering students are female. They also offer a few engineering scholarships.

Princeton and Harvard offer excellent financial aid---probably the best in the country for top schools. Brown and Johns Hopkins are extremely pricey.

Good luck!

PS. If she's "sick of big transitions," then reassure her going to the state school is a fine choice! I kept telling my daughter, "There isn't a wrong choice. There's just your choice," and that seemed to reassure her.
 
#11 ·
I don't know why that is relevant. I haven't gone into what she wants to major in or why, or how much she has put into researching that because I didn't see it as relevant.
Ah yes, a reminder of who I was responding to. This was not an attack. You said she was feeling overwhelmed and I just listed some very typical factors that cause kids to freak out. Many parents are surprised at the notions their children are quietly sitting on. Notions that could easily be soothed with conversations and facts. If you know everything that's flying through her head right now then that's fantastic. If you feel that mentioning that she's not locking herself down to any one future is "mean" then don't say it. If you don't think she's freaking out a little about her choices destroying her chances at grad school that's wonderful. Lots of high-performing kids worry about living up to perceived potential. Most are grateful to know that they won't be letting anyone down should they make changes to majors or choose lower tier schools. Some kids actually have to hear it said by the people who love them. If none of this will ever be relevant than by all means ignore.

It's great she's not worried about admission. Hopefully that will continue in 6 months when all her friends can talk about is whether they will get in. Hopefully that will hold out should she throw her hat into a 6 percent acceptance ring. The most nervous kids we knew were the kids who had nothing to worry about. If you are sure that will never be your daughter then forget I ever said anything.
 
#12 ·
Following this thread with interest.


DD is a sophomore (a young sophomore, as in she skipped 8th grade), and we have discussed visiting our state universities for a tour this spring/summer, and at least one other university on the east coast (near my family) this summer. She seems set on a general area of study (STEM field too), but I can't help thinking there is a missing piece to her finding her area of interest/passion for her future (career).


What has complicated her thoughts/perspective on college and what she wants/could be a good fit, was a tour of MIT last summer; we happen to be in Boston, and thought, "What the heck? Why not?". Now, however realistic or not, she talks a lot about wanting to attend school there. Don't really think that will happen.


So as I said, I will follow this thread with interest.


Of course, this isn't so helpful, but I just wanted you to know you are not alone in feeling unsure how to be most helpful to a soon-to-be college bound DD.
 
#13 ·
I can't help thinking there is a missing piece to her finding her area of interest/passion for her future (career).
My DD toured our 3 state universities with a group from her school, which was a really good experience. They sat in classes, ate in student unions, blah blah blah.

She's also attended a couple of academic camps held at universities, which has been GREAT. The one that really helped her with her sense of direction was a week long, live in the dorms, engineering camp. They learned about the 13 different kinds of engineering taught at the school, had design challenges, a lecture on how to prepare in high school to study engineering, learned how to design in 3D and print on a 3D printer, and did some VERY cool things in some VERY cool labs. This was an amazing experience for her, and really helped her become more clear on what she likes and dislikes, and how to get where she would like to be.

My other DD was interested in forensic anthropology and also attended a very cool university camp to the opposite effect -- she decided it wasn't for her. :wink

None the less, based our experience, I suggest checking into what kind of options like this exist near where you live. (I think MIT does a special camp just for girls).

She and I had a good talk this morning. She likes the idea of applying to the state uni the minute they open the process. It is very solid school and she's a shoe in. (same school where she did the camp). Then she can apply to other interesting schools in a relaxed way, without a lot of stress.

There's a certain hysteria about "getting into college" that our family doesn't buy into. It's a bogus concept. Everybody can get into community college, and most people are bright and work hard in high school can get into a state university. Most private schools are fairly reasonable to get into, if you are flexible about which one. It's really a small percentage of colleges that are highly selective, and they most certainly aren't the only way to get a solid education and prepare for one's future. I think one of the things that will really help DD#2 stay grounded in this process is her father, who is thankfully a much more influential force in her life than her peers.
 
#14 ·
It sounds like both you and your daughter would prefer a department that's actively recruiting women, which is fine. But just in case any of the colleges that aren't doing this remain on her list, I want to explain what I meant about how a school that isn't hyping its female friendliness "might be an environment in which she works as an equal with men": I attended a university that at the time was 70% male overall, 80% male in the major where I started. At the time, there were no particular efforts to recruit women into the university in general, into my major, or into any department that I'm aware of. There was a Campus Women's Center for feminist activities and a Society of Women Engineers and 4 or 5 sororities, and that was it for female-only groups. However, the university culture was all about open-mindedness and respecting diversity. I found that both faculty and students treated me just as seriously as a male student, and at times in class discussions men would ask for a female perspective on an issue. There was only one time I ever heard a sexist comment from a professor, and when I heard them from students outside of class usually another guy would say, "Hey, that's not cool." We had a lot of online discussion boards, where some people would say various stupid things, but anything that was sexist, racist, or otherwise discriminatory would get instantly pounced on and criticized by some of the people, so even when I saw awful things said I also saw that I had allies. (Also, I learned just how many unquestioned prejudices I held, myself, and was forced to work on overcoming them.) Overall, the experience really supported me in becoming a confident woman who feels able to interact productively with men.

BUT notice that I used the word "might". Another school might NOT be an egalitarian environment. My point is that it's more about the campus culture than about what affirmative action programs are in place.

It's also important to look at what those programs are. Recruiting more women by sending brochures to females and then giving them a quarterly lunch with women in their profession, is very different from adjusting the actual curriculum of the major such that students apply their skills to things women are interested in doing with those skills. For example, one of my female friends in college was a computer science major; her department was under 10% women, and the group in most of her classes was FOUR percent: her and another woman and 48 men. She loved her coursework, had lots of friends among her classmates, and didn't feel she was discriminated against--but she also said that the very mechanical and math-oriented things they were making computers do are not interesting to a lot of women, and that the curriculum was neglecting a lot of ways computers could be used to help people, which might interest more women. Sure enough, a decade later the curriculum was retooled to include more "human-computer interaction" and social-science stuff, and now the CS department there is 25-30% female.

Whatsnextmom wrote:
Does she understand that most majors are declared after Sophomore year? Does she understand that the vast majority of students change majors.... it's expected.
I agree with Linda that this is not a point worth emphasizing to this student who is very interested in her field and currently very certain about what she wants to do--it would be cruelly discouraging to undermine that by not taking her seriously.

As for "most majors are declared after Sophomore year"--yeah, if you're in a liberal arts college. Science, engineering, and fine arts majors at many universities have a specific curriculum beginning in the first year. Yes, you can still change from one of those majors to another, but you'll likely add a semester or two because of all the required courses you'll have to catch up. If one of these majors is your first choice, it's wise to start in the major rather than starting undeclared and taking random courses for two years.

That said: I did change from the major I had been so certain was my destiny (architecture) to something very different (psychology). Here's the whole story of how I fought my way along absolutely as long as I could, and why I changed, and my parents' role in it. It was crucial that they allowed me to keep going until I was ready to quit, rather than discourage me earlier. I'm glad that I chose a university that was strong in my intended major but also in many other fields. I had considered schools like Pratt Institute that are more narrowly focused on art, and the reason I didn't apply to any of them was that I wanted to be in a community of more diverse interests. I had no idea that I would change my own goals, and I was very resentful if anyone suggested that I might! But when I did, it was great to be able to stay on the same campus where I had friends, yet be able to study something different.

A&A mentioned Rice; I have several friends and relatives, both sexes, who went there and loved it. My alma mater is Carnegie Mellon, also an excellent place for sciences. I don't know what part of the country you're in, Linda, or how far your daughter is willing to travel.
 
#15 ·
It sounds like both you and your daughter would prefer a department that's actively recruiting women, which is fine. ..... I found that both faculty and students treated me just as seriously as a male student, and at times in class discussions men would ask for a female perspective on an issue. There was only one time I ever heard a sexist comment from a professor, and when I heard them from students outside of class usually another guy would say, "Hey, that's not cool.".... Overall, the experience really supported me in becoming a confident woman who feels able to interact productively with men.

.
I followed your link and read your story. here are 3 quotes that jumped out at me:
if my underlying concept wasn't what the professors were looking for, they'd give me a D. The grading was highly subjective, and they'd never come out and say what they wanted; the students who intuitively chose the "right" ideas were the ones who got the better grades, even if they ended up ignoring some details of the written assignment! Most of what I loved about architecture was "wrong," and my preferences marked me as an ignorant sentimentalist. Old-fashioned styles, human comfort, ornamentation, and practical details (the kinds of things I'd point out in critiques of other people's projects, like, "There's a direct line of sight from the lunch counter to the urinals.") were for dweebs
my architecture classmates were beginning to seem actively hostile. ...... Anyway, in my third year, my studio supplies began to vanish when I wasn't around. Somebody spilled soy sauce across my drawing and didn't even leave an apology note, and when I asked around, everyone gave me a snippy attitude like I shouldn't dare ask because it was obviously an accident and any competent person would just get on with her work. I asked people not to smoke in the studio (which was against the clearly posted university policy) and they started to make a point of blowing smoke toward me and sometimes left cigarette butts on my table. By the final week of the semester, I was putting everything possible into my locker every time I left the room . . . and one night I came into studio and discovered that someone had used my drawing board as a backdrop for spraying spray adhesive; the clean, smooth surface on which I needed to place my paper so I could run my T-square smoothly over it was now coated with tiny dots of goo that could not be removed. I don't know why. I'll never know why. They couldn't possibly have felt threatened by me.
, I made friends with a devout Objectivist, a follower of Rand's principles. (Others on campus called them Randroids.) He gave me a copy of the book and told me how great it was, so I read it. I've never felt like reading it again, and it's been a while, so I'm sure I've forgotten some details, but here's the important part, in summary: Howard Roark, the architect, is a self-centered asshole. He thinks people ought to just shut up and live in the buildings he designs because he's so fucking self-actualized that they ought to bow before his genius. That's what being an architect, nay, being a person, is all about. Oh, and women like to be raped; it fulfills them.

It's very weird to me that you don't consider sexism as one of the possible causes of your being given bad grades, having your opinions discounted, sabotaged by your peers, or told to leave. You were given the choice to leave quietly with Cs, or be flunked out. Your story isn't one of going into a male dominated career and school, being treated as an equal, and being successful. You don't have a story about how being in a male dominated school prepared you to work side by side with your male colleagues after university. Your story is one of being run out for reasons that you never really understood, but that refuse to believe could have anything to do with gender because people were *seldom* sexist to your face.

My husband is an executive at an aerospace firm. He knows exactly what gets said behind closed doors because he's one of the people behind the closed doors. Sexism has changed in the 30 years he's been in the field, but it still exist. Last year, they needed to promote someone from within to a very key position, and in the closed door meetings about all the various traits needed in this position and who would be best, he felt quite clear on who was ideal, but he waited to put the name forward and let everyone else talk for awhile just to see if anyone else would mention this person. No one else did. Every single name put forward was a man, all of whom lacked something. The right person, who he did eventual name (and was given the job and is doing really well with it) is a woman. It didn't even occur to the other heads to consider her, even though she was already the same tier as the men they were considering.

There are other fields that have been integrated for some time, and hopefully that kind of sexism is a thing of that past in many fields. But we know it still exist in the field that our daughter wants to go into.

Those subjective D and Fs you got at school might have been because you weren't cut out for the field, or they might be because your professors were sexist and thought less of your work because YOU were the one submitting it. It's impossible to say, and it's quite possible that if sexism was a part of it, they didn't even realize it. Some of this stuff is so subconscious, than unless a person or organization is working against, it just sort of happens. None of the other people in the closed doors meetings at my DH's firm consider themselves sexist or think that all boys are smarter than all girls, or dismissed his suggestion based on her gender, but it didn't even occur to them to consider promoting a woman that high up.
 
#16 ·
Hey, Linda, I don't mind at all that you quoted so extensively from my article or that you didn't edit it for language, but the MDC user agreement says not to quote >100 words of someone else's writing from another site and not to post profanity...just keep that in mind so you don't get in trouble with the moderators.

I think you may have confused that article with a comprehensive account of my college experience. It isn't. It's about what went wrong in my original major and why I left it, so it only very briefly addresses the many things that were right and good about the first half of my university experience and the even more things that went well in the second half and in my career after graduation. I referred to the article initially because I feel like I can never say I was an architecture student without explaining that I didn't become an architect, and later because I hoped it might be helpful to you as a parent of a student who's very driven and certain about a particular field--NOT because I meant it as support for what I wrote here about my university not being sexist, so I'm sorry if you misunderstood that.

It's very weird to me that you don't consider sexism as one of the possible causes of your being given bad grades, having your opinions discounted, sabotaged by your peers, or told to leave.
Of course I considered sexism as a possible cause. I was raised by a very feminist mother who pointed out sexism at every turn--sometimes she was right about it, sometimes not. She was very concerned about my going to a college with any men at all, let alone a male majority, because she was certain I would experience discrimination. The moment I started having problems in architecture, she started blaming sexism.

But here's the thing: That architecture department, like many others, got rid of about half its students by the end of the second year. Lots of people left voluntarily because they couldn't take the insane workload or the jury crits (where you present your project to a panel of professors and all the students in your year, and they say whatever they want about it, often extremely tactlessly) or because one of the courses led them to discover a love for history or physics or some other major. Other people were cut from the program directly. The only thing unusual about my story is that I managed to get just good enough grades every other semester that I squeaked through into the third year and they had to pull that "we will fail you no matter how good your work is if you don't agree to leave" thing to get rid of me--and that still wasn't unique; I had a friend two years ahead in the program who told me that two guys in his year had been cut that way.

Yet the gender balance in the department was almost the same among graduates as among entering students. More women than men left voluntarily, but nearly all of the students who were cut against their will were men. The struggling students who often got D's and got slammed in jury crits, and the golden ones who nearly always got good grades and glowing jury crits, had gender ratios indistinguishable from the department as a whole. The opinions for which I was criticized were unpopular IDEAS no matter who was promoting them--the male professor who was obsessed with Queen Anne houses, and who took us on a field trip to see a cutting-edge modern house that was just about unlivable because of its poor planning and structural flaws and encouraged us to listen to the occupant's experience actually living real life there, was scathingly criticized behind his back, with other profs telling us to ignore him.

As for being sabotaged by my peers, that didn't seem to be a thing that happened to women; it was a thing that happened to me, only me, as far as I'm aware. The other women mostly were part of the social camaraderie that included about half the men in our year. I don't think I was victimized because I was a woman. I think I was victimized because I was me. That still doesn't justify or even explain it, but I had been bullied to some extent all the way through school up to that point (and I'd say 5th-9th grades were worse than the architecture department) so it was not much of a surprise to me. :(

It was a tough program and a horrible experience in many ways. But it was just as tough and horrible for men as for women. I really saw no evidence that women were being treated badly for being women.

Just because I was treated badly and I am female, doesn't mean that the reason I was treated badly was sexism.

The last part you quoted and bolded
That's what being an architect, nay, being a person, is all about. Oh, and women like to be raped; it fulfills them.
you quoted out of context--I'm talking here about my understanding of the message of the novel The Fountainhead. Yes, the idea that Howard Roark was the kind of architect we should aspire to be was prevalent. But the female character was never discussed in any way by anyone in the architecture department that I ever heard--her thoughts and behavior, and the (female) author's attitude toward her, were among the things that infuriated me about the book, but I don't mean to say that any of that was characteristic of the architecture students or faculty. We watched the Anita Hill vs. Clarence Thomas hearings in architecture studio--had the TV on while we were working--and everyone who voiced an opinion was on her side.

Your story isn't one of going into a male dominated career and school, being treated as an equal, and being successful. You don't have a story about how being in a male dominated school prepared you to work side by side with your male colleagues after university.
I do not have a story of going into a male-dominated career because I didn't--psychology is about 50/50. But I do have a story of going to a male-dominated university, being treated as an equal, and being successful: In the architecture department, I was treated equally with the men who also had the "wrong" ideas and lacked artistic drawing talent, but in my other classes and outside the classroom and then as a psych major, I was treated well and I did succeed. I do have a story, actually multiple stories, of working side by side with male colleagues in my career. "The Path at the End of the Road" is not those stories, because it's the story of why I'm not an architect, not the story of what I am instead. I have a lot of stories you haven't heard yet.

Those subjective D and Fs you got at school might have been because you weren't cut out for the field, or they might be because your professors were sexist and thought less of your work because YOU were the one submitting it. It's impossible to say, and it's quite possible that if sexism was a part of it, they didn't even realize it. Some of this stuff is so subconscious, than unless a person or organization is working against, it just sort of happens.
I do understand what you mean, and I guess it is impossible to be absolutely certain that they were biased against me because I had opinions and skill deficits that would bias them against men as well, and/or because they disliked me as an individual, and/or because I was the only student from Oklahoma and they were all virulent anti-Okies, rather than because I'm female. But I tried to explain earlier that the university WAS working against sexism by having a culture in which it (and racism and homophobia) was very uncool and everyone was supposed to be constantly checking their attitudes. Also, I didn't mention that the adjunct professors--practicing architects who also taught a studio course--were almost half female; I don't know if that resulted from a conscious affirmative action program or if women architects are more likely than men to accept adjunct positions, which pay poorly and take time away from work but give you an opportunity to mentor.

Anyway, of course it's important to help your daughter find a school where her gender is no barrier to her success, and I hope that as she does her research it becomes clear which schools are really like that.
 
#17 ·
here's my two cents...take it FWIW.

we are just starting the journey as mine will be a rising junior next year. like yours, she has a very clear idea of what she wants to do and more than likely, will be a real competitor for the big names in her field.

that being said...i'm a grown woman, and I find the process ridiculously overwhelming. i'm forever googling where is (insert various LACs) college??? what programs does this U offer? do they have the major/minor she wants at a price I'm willing to pay?? I cant even imagine mine attempting the process alone, so yours is light years ahead

I think it sounds to me like your DD has a rock solid plan. imo, if she has 4 solid choices and she'll likely be admitted (not crazy reaches, but realistic choices)....I see absolutely no reason to even look further, unless money is the issue.

you have the benefit of a DH in the field, who likely knows where recent hires come from with which degrees, etc. I cant imagine he'd steer her wrong. I presume she has a guidance counselor who will make sure her 4 choices are appropriate too.

as the mom, it may be smart to quickly flip through any brochures just in case, but then just toss them so your DD isn't overwhelmed, as long as she agrees. its advertising, period. junk mail.
I think you should be extremely proud to have a DD with a good head on her shoulders.

honestly, i'm in the camp that as long as you have that degree, where you went doesn't matter nearly as much as the internet will have you believe. some of the most successful people I know went to PodunkU....mostly, no one ever asks, except those reliving their glory days.:wink:

if you believe everything you read online, your (and mine) look like subhuman students if they aren't early admits to HYP and the other ivies, and don't have perfect scores, perfect grades, 12342 hours of community service, mastered cello, lettered in 8 sports, built yurts in Africa on their summer vacations and raised 12 siblings single handedly all while working 40 hours a week in a research lab as a paid intern and then some. I don't know who these kids are, but I don't know when they breathe, let alone sleep. I take what I see with a grain of salt.

so be supportive and happy in her 4 choices and ignore all well meaning advice, glossy sales pitches and peer pressure...and congrats to all of you!
 
#19 ·
Thanks for the feedback. Everything is feeling calmer here now. It really is all marketing.

I think it sounds to me like your DD has a rock solid plan. imo, if she has 4 solid choices and she'll likely be admitted (not crazy reaches, but realistic choices)....I see absolutely no reason to even look further, unless money is the issue.
3 of the 4 schools she should be admitted to, and 2 of those she will most likely receive very nice merit scholarships. 1 of the 4 is reach school.

Money is the opposite of the issue. One of the schools she likes is an instate university and, if she continues with her current grades/test scores, she'll have at least a tuition scholarship and possibly a full ride. The big names schools she is hearing from, however, could cost us a great deal of money. She will not qualify for any need-based aid, so whatever isn't merit based, we write a check for. At a "very good" university, she could qualify for merit aid, but at a GREAT university, she would be a run of the mill freshmen, and I doubt she would. So we are comparing "free" to "enough money to buy a decent home."

you have the benefit of a DH in the field, who likely knows where recent hires come from with which degrees, etc. I cant imagine he'd steer her wrong. I presume she has a guidance counselor who will make sure her 4 choices are appropriate too.
He helped her come up with the 4 schools based on how solid their programs are, their ties to industry, how happy he thinks she would be there, etc. It's a good list.

as the mom, it may be smart to quickly flip through any brochures just in case, but then just toss them so your DD isn't overwhelmed, as long as she agrees. its advertising, period. junk mail.
I think you should be extremely proud to have a DD with a good head on her shoulders.
I am proud of her, and a little wowed by her.The reason I posted on this board rather than the teen board is that I feel what she is going through is a gifted issue.
honestly, i'm in the camp that as long as you have that degree, where you went doesn't matter nearly as much as the internet will have you believe. some of the most successful people I know went to PodunkU....mostly, no one ever asks, except those reliving their glory days.:wink:
yes, my husband agrees with this, to a point. He feels that what the degree is in is more important than where it is from. He's experience is that after you get your first job, people only care about what you've done in the past year. No body gets a pass based on where they went to school, and new grads who think it makes them special quickly find out no one cares. They care what you can do right now, on this project.

None the less, he's gotten a little caught up in the big names too! It's kinda hard not to. He and I had a good talk today, and said that as much as some of the schools have big names, he thinks she would be happier closer to home and nearer to friends, and mostly he wants her to be happy. (though there is a tiny part of him that wants to be able to brag)

if you believe everything you read online, your (and mine) look like subhuman students if they aren't early admits to HYP and the other ivies, and don't have perfect scores, perfect grades, 12342 hours of community service, mastered cello, lettered in 8 sports, built yurts in Africa on their summer vacations and raised 12 siblings single handedly all while working 40 hours a week in a research lab as a paid intern and then some....
yeah -- we had a talk after her freshman year about some of the things students do in highschool to be more appealing to big name schools. She made a conscious decision to not do anything (in the way of extra curricular /volunteer work) solely so she could put it on a piece of paper to impress people because she thinks it's a poor way to live life. She puts 100% into her tough classes, then she does things she enjoys, which including gaming, cos play, seeing movies with her friends.

She didn't want to just make her high school years about getting to college where she would then make her whole life about getting a job and then make her whole life about getting the promotion. She's a smart cookie, and she realizes that she is currently living her life. From watching her father, she knows that you never get to a point where it is just all done, so she figures she's better off setting boundaries now and living in the present.

It's been a long time, but the same thing happened to me. I was overwhelmed that so many places appeared to want me, and for a while I let myself be swayed by big names or intriguing locations. In the end, I was happy with my choice, but I had more than one important factor influencing my decision.

Does she have any major interests outside her major that she predicts she will want to pursue? ...
You could probably guide her through the process of asking herself questions and creating a chart, but allow her to be the one to weight the attributes.
We've been talking about making a table to help sort through the schools, and we've had some good conversations about what she wants to consider about the different schools.

In conversations with her, we really get the feeling that she wants to go to the state uni (which has a very solid program) but feels peer pressure to do something else, so we are going to work helping her clarify why it is a good choice letting go of peer pressure. Picking your closest state uni because they have a good program in what you want to do and you like their facilities and approach is really different from picking your closest state uni because you have no idea what you want or what else is out there.
 
#18 ·
It's been a long time, but the same thing happened to me. I was overwhelmed that so many places appeared to want me, and for a while I let myself be swayed by big names or intriguing locations. In the end, I was happy with my choice, but I had more than one important factor influencing my decision.

Does she have any major interests outside her major that she predicts she will want to pursue? These could be things the school offers (I played basketball), but not necessarily (rock climbing). If she's really gung ho and talented, she could probably create the opportunity to get to know the faculty in her major at a wide range of sizes of schools, but does she care about access to faculty in areas outside her major? Does she care about proximity to the cultural life of big cities? Wilderness? She should first ask herself these questions separately from considering the answers in relation to any school.

About 10 years ago, my partner and I had to pick a sperm donor from hundreds of profiles. We were completely unable to do it until we:
1) Made a list of definite disqualifiers (eg height over 6'2" - don't ask me why, that wasn't mine)
2) Made a huge chart of the donors with ratings of the attributes we had decided we valued

You could probably guide her through the process of asking herself questions and creating a chart, but allow her to be the one to weight the attributes.

Good luck. And unless it's changed, the actual National Merit Scholarships aren't that much money.
 
#20 ·
Relax

The college application CAN be really overwhelming for anyone. The College Board website can be really helpful for searching. Any student thinking about college can answer a few simple questions that can help: small, medium or large town? small, medium or large campus? What parts of the country are appealing? Do you want a more selective student body where the pressure to perform will be high? Or a more diverse one that offers different definitions of success than just GPA? These few things will help narrow down possibilities without even knowing what s/he wants to major in. If they're passionate about something they'd like to do but may not want to major in, make sure it's offered. Once narrowed down to five options, I believe there is no substitution for actually visiting the campus and seeing how it feels. If that isn't possible, then visiting the website is the next best thing. Paying attention to how you feel as you're looking at the photos or buildings and reading or talking to the people can be the best indicator of whether or not it will be a good fit.
 
#21 ·
I live in Canada where things seem to be much saner. There's nothing here similar to PSATs or ACTs, so the only reason you'd hear from a college is because you wrote to them first. Unless you apply, they don't know you from a hole in the wall. I hesitate to confess this but my two high school grads were focused on particular paths, were satisfied that they had which program was the best fit for them, and each corresponded with and applied to just one college. I could have -- I was tempted to -- encourage them to look at other options, to come up with Plan B's, keep open minds, shop around. But I didn't push it. It all worked out for them, and I'm sure happy they didn't have to endure the whirlwind of choices your American kids are confronted with.

I can't help but be reminded of Barry Schwartz's TED Talk about the paradox of choice. He talks about how the unprecedented wealth of choice we have nowadays leads to decision-making paralysis, a lower level of satisfaction with one's choice, and self-blame over the outcomes of one's choice.

Miranda
 
#22 ·
I'm sure happy they didn't have to endure the whirlwind of choices your American kids are confronted with.

I can't help but be reminded of Barry Schwartz's TED Talk about the paradox of choice.
I really enjoyed the video, and I'm going to show it to my kids later. I can see how the amazing range of choices is really difficult for both my kids.

We came up with some criteria:

  1. Very solid/cool program in the specialized branch of engineering she is interested in. (this narrowed it down a lot, it turns out that many of the schools that wrote her don't have programs in the very specific thing she wants to study)
  2. In the lower half of the US, most likely in the western half. This is a weather / culture thing. She feels that she would be happier.
  3. Accept AP credit. She'll have nearly 30 AP credits when she finishes high school, and she wants them. They won't let her graduate university any earlier (course sequencing is very tight) but they will let her select an additional minor or explore another subject in more depth than she could at a school that doesn't take AP credits.
  4. A good place for a woman to studying engineering. I hadn't really considered that before this thread, but of the original 4 schools she liked, only one doesn't have anything in place, and it has a very low rate of women both of women being admitted and finishing the program. It's weird. The other schools handle this issue different ways, but they have awareness and more respectable completion rates.
After all this, there are only 2 schools left on her list. One of the women that works for my DH studied at one of the schools, so we are going to set up lunch with her sometime (may be spring break). She's already very familiar with the other school.

It was really helpful to figure out what her criteria really was. So many of the things that are bantered around to consider aren't relevant, like the big school/small school thing. It took a while to figure out what was actually important *to her.*
 
#23 · (Edited)
As a European parent completely mystified by the US college selection and application process (hooks? Athletics? Legacies? Football teams? Stadiums?), I'd say she has her head screwed on right and you should be proud of her priorities. A school with an excellent program in her chosen field, in a part if the country she feels comfortable in, where she'll be taken seriously as a woman and that her parents can afford? What more should she look at? She's probably been made insecure by all the people around her (not you!) who insist on completely different priorities, for picking what sounds like a four year long summer camp.
I was so interested, I browsed college confidential for a while to understand this process better, and what your daughter cares about sounds completely different from what all the other kids and parents over there care about - but all eminently rational to me.
But that kind of cultural disconnect is hard to deal with at her age, I'm sure she'll grow more confident about her own choices.

Edited because I wanted to add that I am not dissing the US higher education system at all, and some of what's on offer makes me drool over my keyboard! But I find that even US parents discuss on CC that the wholistic application thing and the emphasis that stuff like names/dorm quality/social life/extracurriculars and sports has taken on over plain old academics is out of proportion. There's also a recent NYT article on How to raise a university's profile: packaging and pricing, in a similar vein. So, I do agree with Linda that feeling a cultural disconnect here may be a gifted kid Thing because your kid feels that NOW is really the time to focus on the academics first and foremost, and the world around her still does not agree.

I also wanted to add that from an international perspective (and a gifted kid may want to be swimming in a worldwide pond at some time) it is not quite true that once you have your first job, a name is nothing and it is the quality of your work that matters. However, there are only about four universities in the world that have actual instant worldwide recognition and that get EVERYONE'S attention (three of which are in places called Cambridge, I went to the fourth in the other place, which is how I found that one out). The initial reaction may be positive or negative, but you do get that moment of attention that not everyone else gets, in which you have the chance to show your stuff. Other places may have a great name in a region, or a country, or in a field, but if you want that worldwide double take, you need one of those four names. Move to Europe for postgrad or postdoc work and mention Pomona or Swarthmore and people will just shrug...
So unless one of those big names is on the list, it does make sense to check for what kind of attention a name actually gets in the area you care about: a country, or a region, or your chosen field, or among your friends, or your parents friends....
Your daughter and her dad care about her chosen field and it sounds like that is the right fit for her. If she finds she begins to care more about the bigger names, there is always postgrad work...
 
#24 ·
there are only about four universities in the world that have actual instant worldwide recognition and that get EVERYONE'S attention (three of which are in places called Cambridge, I went to the fourth in the other place, which is how I found that one out). The initial reaction may be positive or negative, but you do get that moment of attention that not everyone else gets, in which you have the chance to show your stuff. Other places may have a great name in a region, or a country, or in a field, but if you want that worldwide double take, you need one of those four names. Move to Europe for postgrad or postdoc work and mention Pomona or Swarthmore and people will just shrug...
So unless one of those big names is on the list, it does make sense to check for what kind of attention a name actually gets in the area you care about: a country, or a region, or your chosen field, or among your friends, or your parents friends....
Your daughter and her dad care about her chosen field and it sounds like that is the right fit for her. If she finds she begins to care more about the bigger names, there is always postgrad work...
This.

I went to one of those three universities in Cambridge (Massachusetts?), and I agree with Tigerle wholeheartedly.

I'll take what Tigerle said a step further. In undergraduate, if you find a school that gives your daughter a lot of fantastic opportunities to truly interact closely with the professors, then the quality of the undergraduate education is really about what the student makes of the experience, and not about the actual name of the specific school. I learned this when I went to graduate school and found all kinds of super smart people who made the most of the undergraduate research opportunities that they had at schools that I had never heard of. I have seen this idea reinforced time after time during the twenty years that I have been a STEM professor.

It is in graduate school that the name of the school really matters much more. But then, even so, not as much as you would think. I meet brilliant people with graduate degrees from no-name schools on a regular basis. Again, it is what they make of their opportunities that makes me sit up and take notice, and that is very easy for me to assess in ways other than looking at the name of their alma mater.

In a nutshell, after graduation, the people who really matter want to know WHAT you have done during college (beyond taking the standard courses for your major), not where you did it. I have personally worked with several students who went to a school that no one ever heard of, and because they made the most of the opportunities that came from close attention of their professors, got a much better education than students who did only what was required at those three schools in Cambridge.
 
#27 · (Edited)
Yes, it's a delicate balancing act raising a sibling of a special needs kid, in a situation like ours where the special needs kid is the baby and the challenges mostly physical maybe even more so, but between sisters it may also be especially strong because of your DD2's high capacity for empathy...a diffuse feeling of responsibility may be all intertwined with not wanting to leave home and her family.
I actually do not think it is possible to raise a special needs sibling without that diffuse feeling of responsibility, and I really think it's okay if she owns that feeling, but maybe it's time to spell it out now: it's okay for US if you leave home, it WILL be okay for your sister if you leave home, but if it's what YOU want that is the one thing that counts. She must own the decision - it should not be one that is made out of a place of guilt, or fear, but of HER priorities overriding everything else, for now. And one of those priorities may be being close to her family not just for her comfort but also a little bit for the sake of her parents and her siblings comfort. She is just a little bit less of an island than other men or women, but then we none of us are, and special needs siblings just find that one out a lot sooner than other kids. After all, this is the time when any sibling, even in an otherwise comfortable family, may be told that, with two or three kids to put through college, they may have to choose the full ride state flagship over the fancy private school they had set their heart on.

I think it's great for them (if not for you so much...) that you are going to support your DD1 with the transfer to a 4year school at the same time you are supporting your DD2 with her applications.

Also, I strongly believe in genetic dispositions towards ASD running in families and maybe your DD2, without showing the least little bit of ASD traits in other ways, has inherited some of that aversity to change and transition - while she CAN do it, it may take a lot more energy out of her than it takes out of others? I recognize this in my DH (who has a special needs sibling who has no ASD but similar traits, who cannot stand change in any way or form and still lives with my elderly in laws.) and my older DS, a bit.
Then again, you could be right and she's just burned out on change for now!

One name that I have seen throw around a lot for women gifted in MINT, with bothe an intellectual and a nurturing atmosphere, Is Harvey Mudd. Certainly the climate fits, if not the state. I assume it's not a good fit for her very specific engineering interest?
 
#28 · (Edited)
It so funny to me that you mention Harvey Mudd! Most people have never heard of it. It goes on and off the list. In many ways, it would be a great fit. Most small colleges are liberal arts, and it is one of the few that is math, science and engineering. No greek life. In the right corner of the country. GREAT undergrad programs. However, their engineering program is general, not specific, so for her, it would be a commitment to then go to grad school in what she wants to do, and that isn't a commitment that *right now* she wants to make. (Oddly, if she were committed to graduate work in engineering, it would most likely be the best choice.)


It will be interesting to see how things play out for her over the next year, and where she is with all this when she really has to make a decision. Yesterday, her math teacher recommended she apply to a summer math program for high schoolers at his alma mater , and she's going to go for it (competitive program to get into, free if you get in, 8 weeks long). She thinks it sounds great. I think that she would find out about more options that she has, not just for colleges, but for field of study.
 
#32 ·
Hi-
I didn't read all replies but just wanted to make a few comments based on my experiences. When I was considering colleges as a high schooler (for a STEM degree) I was really fixated on going to a 'name' school. I thought it meant I was more likely to achieve the success I was looking for in my field. I wound up attending not a top name school, but one that is more difficult to get in, excellent reputation for science, etc (under an ivy league, but still name enough for some bragging rights in some circles).

What a mistake! The pressure, the competition to achieve a B.S. in Biology! Awful. My general chemistry teacher was so scary, and stated on the first day of class that only 10% of us would be finishing in the program. I can remember walking by the library at 11pm on a Saturday and seeing it FULL of my classmates studying. I was a stressed out mess. I made it through the program, and when it came time to apply to graduate programs and I started the interviewing process, I found my co-applicants (and later, fellow grad students) to be from many of the state schools I thought I was too good for...ugh.

Also, going to these private 'name' schools came with a large price tag ($36K a year then, up to $65K now!). Not only was it a major financial drain (just paid off my last student loan last month, at age 40)..the kids came from very affluent families for the most part and I had trouble relating to them (in other words, I didn't like a lot of my fellow undergrads). I was from a solid middle class family, and my classmates were driving new range rovers. I had one suitemate who rented a U-Haul to bring her SWEATERS to the dorm. Seriously!

The name of the school matters when you are thinking about reaching for a top Law/Business program, but it certainly didn't matter for my line of training. Graduate school was so much better in every way than undergrad.

I recommend watching the recent documentary the Ivory Tower - very informative about how these big 'name' colleges have changed the goal from education to profit.


GL!
-Jen
 
#34 ·
Hi-
The pressure, the competition to achieve a B.S. in Biology! Awful. My general chemistry teacher was so scary, and stated on the first day of class that only 10% of us would be finishing in the program....the kids came from very affluent families for the most part and I had trouble relating to them (in other words, I didn't like a lot of my fellow undergrads)...
I recommend watching the recent documentary the Ivory Tower -
Thank you for your post! You articulated some of my concerns. One of the things I want to check before she decides on a school is completion rates. I'm not interested in her going into a "flunk out" program. This is a big commitment of time, effort, and money, and want her in a school that is serious about her being successful.

My DH makes a comfortable living, but he only rose to his rank recently, and DD#2 has grown up as the sibling of a kid with special needs. She sometimes has a hard time relating to the kids at her upper middle class school. It isn't so much a money issue, but a values one. She's just had an "earthier" upbringing isn't the typical sheltered and spoiled suburbanite. Plus, we live in a relaxed, mellow corner of the country so I suspect that some of this is more muted here than it would be on either coast.

I'll check out Ivory Tower!

http://poetsandquantsforundergrads.com/2014/08/12/universities-with-the-happiest-students/
....

I checked out Olin and the website does look super interesting but it's tiny, sharing facilities with Babson. Makes for a very...focused social scene, I guess. Sounds like a place on ought to visit before committing.
Very interesting link, but I wonder how valid it is. Vanderbilt makes my skin crawl, and it's the top of the list.

Olin requires a weekend stay before admission. They do special weekends for select applicants. It sounds very cool, except that you could get asked for the weekend, go, and still not get submitted. That seems stressful to me. What if you end up really falling in love with it?
 
#33 ·
http://poetsandquantsforundergrads.com/2014/08/12/universities-with-the-happiest-students/

Check Out this link with a compilation of the prince tons review of colleges with the happiest students for the last five years - Olin does show up several times. The other tech schools that show up are Virginia tech and Rice. I guess the PP was unhappy at MIT or Caltech....

Wondering why the students are so happy at Claremont McKenna and Pomona but not Harvey Mudd...

I checked out Olin and the website does look super interesting but it's tiny, sharing facilities with Babson. Makes for a very...focused social scene, I guess. Sounds like a place on ought to visit before committing.
 
#36 ·
Can the schools put her in touch with a few female majors who could talk to her about (1) the actual experience, numbers aside, of being a woman in that particular department, with the current personalities and culture, and (2) general mentoring advice on choosing a school and starting out as a minority in the field?
 
#37 ·
This thread is well over a year old. It's kind of odd to re-read it. We are past the decision point.

My DD decided on a university that she was already considering before all the brochures showed up and caused so much angst. It's a state university in a different state, with strong ties to industry (which gives her better chances for research as an undergrad and paid internships). It's one of the few programs in the country that allows students to study abroad while majoring in what she wants to major in.

We went for a visit, and they rolled out the red carpet. They are excited to have her ( because she's a girl? because of her test scores?) They've offered her a nice scholarship. The facilities are lovely, just lovely. Everything is set.

As far as the advice in the above post, we arranged for her to met with a woman who works in the field and who has been a bit of a sounding board for her this year. My DD decided on the same university that her mentor attended. :smile:
 
#38 ·
I was hoping the past-date comment would elicit an update, Linda! Thanks!

My dd17 is bound for engineering at her first choice school next fall too. When this thread started I don't think she had any idea what she wanted to do at college but biomedical robotics percolated to the top and she's now making it happen. She's so excited to get started! I imagine your dd is the same.

Miranda
 
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