Gifted starting kindergarten early..? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 93 Old 07-28-2005, 03:37 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I am so torn my ds1 is very gifted, very nice, friendly happy boy.
I love him, I love having him around. We have a 7 month old as well.
I was thinking of starting my ds into kindergarten early this Sept.
Now I can ask nicely....I can get him tested ($) or I can make them test him.
I am torn though as I am thinking maybe the older boys might be aggressive..
he's really sweet and doesn't understand when kids are only being mean.

Anyone have experience with this?
I am also so afraid that they will tell me he's just 'average'....lol I know he's not but still. My dh didn't go into the school to talk about it this spring ( I was wired shut after surgery....)

WDYT?
Testing would be too expensive, and private school as well.

8 might be enough
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#2 of 93 Old 07-28-2005, 03:43 AM
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I would find a good preK program for gifted kids instead. There is a big difference between a young K student and an older one. The older ones can handle sitting for longer periods of time and don't need so many breaks between activities. Your ds may be academically gifted but he is still going to be physically younger than the others. I've taught gifted kids for 10 years and was one myself. Unless kids are unusally gifted (like able to jump many grades ahead) I advocate to parents that they should be with their own age group. A preK program designed for gifted kids would be more able to meet his needs than a regular K class.
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#3 of 93 Old 07-28-2005, 03:45 AM
 
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What do you hope to accomplish sending him early? My concern would be a social disadvantage of emotional immaturity despite his intellectual qualifications. Then he'll always be a year behind physiologically and developmentally, which I think might set him up for some challenges socially. If you are eager for him to progress with his learning, I bet there is a lot you could do at home to augment his intellectual growth!

There's no harm in asking for the school district to test him... though it's awfully late in the summer to be testing into kindergarten for fall, no? He couldnt test until school gets going, and then he'd enter school after it was already underway. I dunno, I'm not feeling good about it. Convince me!
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#4 of 93 Old 07-28-2005, 11:19 AM
 
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If you feel emotionally he's ready for Kindergarten, then I would say to go for it. "Gifted" preschools are VERY far and few between, but if you have one in your area, that could be an option as well. Early admittance or grade skipping can actually be the best solution for some gifted children, but how easy it can be done is really dependant on your local school system. In our area the cutoff date for Kindergarten is December 1st, so some 4 year olds start each year. However, other than that, there is no early admittance, no exceptions, grade skipping is considered in certain circumstances, but only after kindergarten has been completed. As one of the other posters commented, you can do lots of great enrichment at home too! Good luck in your decision!
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#5 of 93 Old 07-28-2005, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'll answer the rest later, but I should have clarified our Kindergarten starts at 4 years old, then senior Kindergarten ( regular kindergarten) at five, so its really what you would think of as preKindergarten or junior k that I am thinking of starting him - lol not two years ahead!
Alison

8 might be enough
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#6 of 93 Old 07-28-2005, 11:57 AM
 
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Why don't you homeschool? With very few exceptions, the kindergartens will probably not be able to do much of anything for him, and the more gifted he is, the less they will be able to do. NCLB's pressures have made it imperative that teachers work on getting the lowest-performing kids to pass the tests; therefore, if a kid is gifted, they're very likely to be left to themselves or stuck in the corner reading.

If your kid is way, way gifted, I'd really not even bother. What is a kindergarten teacher going to do with a kid who can read at the fifth-grade level, spell words I see the adults on this board messin' up on, and do multiplication, for instance? Really, what? That kindergarten teacher's going to regard that kid as a pain in the butt, most likely, because he represents a whole new one-student class for her to prepare for. Whee. Moreover -- and this is the issue that gripes me most -- how is a gifted kid going to get challenged? It's one thing to stick them in a corner reading and allow them to coast where they are for a year (and in that case, what's the purpose of schooling him?), and another thing to challenge him to develop and expand on what he knows. That generally takes 1:1 interaction, or at least interaction with others who are working on understanding the same concepts.

Just my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh
I am so torn my ds1 is very gifted, very nice, friendly happy boy.
I love him, I love having him around. We have a 7 month old as well.
I was thinking of starting my ds into kindergarten early this Sept.
Now I can ask nicely....I can get him tested ($) or I can make them test him.
I am torn though as I am thinking maybe the older boys might be aggressive..
he's really sweet and doesn't understand when kids are only being mean.

Anyone have experience with this?
I am also so afraid that they will tell me he's just 'average'....lol I know he's not but still. My dh didn't go into the school to talk about it this spring ( I was wired shut after surgery....)

WDYT?
Testing would be too expensive, and private school as well.
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#7 of 93 Old 07-28-2005, 11:59 AM
 
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The research doesn't support your opinion. In fact, it quite contradicts it, suggesting that there is very little (if anything) to worry about on the score of emotional immaturity and being a year behind.

http://www.nationdeceived.org/

Quote:
Originally Posted by pamelamama
What do you hope to accomplish sending him early? My concern would be a social disadvantage of emotional immaturity despite his intellectual qualifications. Then he'll always be a year behind physiologically and developmentally, which I think might set him up for some challenges socially. If you are eager for him to progress with his learning, I bet there is a lot you could do at home to augment his intellectual growth!

There's no harm in asking for the school district to test him... though it's awfully late in the summer to be testing into kindergarten for fall, no? He couldnt test until school gets going, and then he'd enter school after it was already underway. I dunno, I'm not feeling good about it. Convince me!
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#8 of 93 Old 07-28-2005, 11:59 AM
 
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In my school district they are very firm about not having any child, regardless of ability, start K early. That's one reason I'm homeschooling Abi, so that if she wants to learn things beyond ABC she can (she is a beginning reader). I am not sure that I would have put her in early though, because I feel like she needs to mature more socially, even though she's ahead academically. My big gripe is not that they won't start them early, but that once they start, that the ones who are ahead are not put up with a higher grade just for those subjects. In my school district they will not allow children to move ahead, even for the subjects, until 3rd grade.

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#9 of 93 Old 07-28-2005, 12:42 PM
 
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I think you should really think hard about whether your dc is emotionally and socially mature enough to deal with school. My dh was a gifted child, who had a miserable experience at school as a small child. He used much bigger words than other children his age, and didn't fit in socially, so the other children picked on him a lot. The teacher thought he was a pain because he didn't fit her mold of how all the children should act (finished worked too quickly, asked too many questions etc). I would only start him early if you have met the teacher and feel that he is really going to be appreciated in her class.

Personally, I am homeschooling my dd.

Laura, Mama to Mya 7/02, Ian 6/07 and Anna 8/09
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#10 of 93 Old 07-28-2005, 12:49 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pamelamama
What do you hope to accomplish sending him early?
This is exactly the question I was going to suggest you consider. As an early elementary teacher and mom to a gifted 5 year old, I would not do it for many of the reasons suggested in other posts.
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#11 of 93 Old 07-28-2005, 01:32 PM
 
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I have some experience with this situation. While my son is incredibly talented in a lot of ways, I'm not sure that he would fit the definition of "gifted". However, he missed the cut-off to start school by 3 days. I talked to the Principals and the Student Counselors for a couple of the elementary schools in our town. Every person in the teaching field advised that I should err on the side of caution for a number of reasons. Yes, the child's current emotional development and social development are key. But they said that children, particularly boys, being the youngest in their class tend to struggle around 5th grade or so, and then again in Jr. High School... lots of emotional changes, physiological changes... and they suggested that while the child might be prepared for Kindergarten now, in 5 or 6 or 10 years, he might be at a big disadvantage. Not academically, necessarily, but socially.

The administrators that I spoke with have years and years of experience with children at various ages, so I trust their perspective (I've never had a 5th grader nor a Jr. High Schooler).

So I did err on the side of caution and didn't put my son in Kindergarten the year that he missed the date by 3 days... I waited until the following year. He is entering 3rd grade in the Fall and I couldn't be more pleased with my decision. He is smart, confident, phsycially equal to most of his peers and he is thriving. I hope that this continues through all of his school years. I trust that it will... I think I've done the right thing to give him good odds for that.

My long-winded message to the OP is that your decision perhaps shouldn't be soley based on his social skills or academic savvy now... consider the years beyond Kindergarten and how he might benefit from being a little older in his grade.

In any event, good luck... and once you've made a decision, don't second-guess yourself... know that you've done what YOU think is best for your son.
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#12 of 93 Old 07-28-2005, 01:33 PM
 
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We faced this question with DD a couple years ago. Preschool was not a great fit for her or us for a variety of reasons so we had her early entrance tested (btw, VERY easy test where we live).

So, this was two years ago when she was 4.5 in the fall (she has a January birthday). (Our district's cut off is Aug 31 and they said that "only" September b-days ever passed ). We talked w/the gifted coordinator and some other people though and looking at her (not physically, but assessing her personality) we decided to not send her to public kinder (which we weren't *really* considering) BUT they have a supplimental homeschool program that she wanted to do instead of kinder so we did that. As Charles Baudelaire has already pointed out, and they were clear about, there would just be no way to "deal" with DD in a traditional kinder setting. The teachers are ready to deal with a certain variation of skills, but beyond that there is just not a lot of options *in kindergarten.*

So, in "kinder" DD was virtually unschooled with classes in Tools (Woodworking), Art, & Creative Movement provided by the school district.

The next year she was also not ready to go to 1st grade (she really wasn't ready to go half days from me at 4.5, definately wasn't ready for full days from me at 5.5). We decided to have her tested last winter/spring, though, and she was accepted into the 2nd grade Full-Time "Highly Capable" program (about the "top" 1.5%) program for next year. We haven't seen how it will work out, but from the input I have recieved it is easier for teachers to deal with deviations from the norm (if they *want* to) once all the kids in a class are reading. They work at least one year ahead (which will, age-wise, be two years for DD) so we are going to try it out at least.

Because of our experiences, I highly recommend to many people I talk with to keep their child out of kinder. It would have been a boring, scary place for DD but now she is excited and ready to go to 2nd grade.

 

 

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#13 of 93 Old 07-28-2005, 01:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mummer
I have some experience with this situation. While my son is incredibly talented in a lot of ways, I'm not sure that he would fit the definition of "gifted". However, he missed the cut-off to start school by 3 days. I talked to the Principals and the Student Counselors for a couple of the elementary schools in our town. Every person in the teaching field advised that I should err on the side of caution for a number of reasons. Yes, the child's current emotional development and social development are key. But they said that children, particularly boys, being the youngest in their class tend to struggle around 5th grade or so, and then again in Jr. High School... lots of emotional changes, physiological changes... and they suggested that while the child might be prepared for Kindergarten now, in 5 or 6 or 10 years, he might be at a big disadvantage. Not academically, necessarily, but socially.

The administrators that I spoke with have years and years of experience with children at various ages, so I trust their perspective (I've never had a 5th grader nor a Jr. High Schooler).

So I did err on the side of caution and didn't put my son in Kindergarten the year that he missed the date by 3 days... I waited until the following year. He is entering 3rd grade in the Fall and I couldn't be more pleased with my decision. He is smart, confident, phsycially equal to most of his peers and he is thriving. I hope that this continues through all of his school years. I trust that it will... I think I've done the right thing to give him good odds for that.

My long-winded message to the OP is that your decision perhaps shouldn't be soley based on his social skills or academic savvy now... consider the years beyond Kindergarten and how he might benefit from being a little older in his grade.

In any event, good luck... and once you've made a decision, don't second-guess yourself... know that you've done what YOU think is best for your son.
I just wanted to emphasize the difference between a child who is a bit academically ahead and one who is "gifted." (BTW, at this age parents are the most accurate at assesing if their child is gifted or not). According to the info I have read, approximately 90% of gifted children who are grade skipped (sometimes more than one grade, sometimes skipping an entire "school"--- elementary, junior or senior high) have positive outcomes, especially compared to staying in place. These are children that will NEVER even out and in many cases get further and further from the norm.

If you have a teacher who is willing to produce a completely different curriculum for you child, that is one thing, but for many children grade skipping can finally place them where they truly "belong."

According to "Genius Denied" gifted children tend to have *less* social problems when they are put in the grade they academically need. There is initial constraint, due to age, but once it is obvious their emotional development lines up they find peers.

http://www.geniusdenied.com/

 

 

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#14 of 93 Old 07-28-2005, 01:56 PM
 
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TiredX2, no disagreements from me. You're absolutely right.

However, my point was merely that while finding a class or a school that meets your child's academic needs are important, it is also important to consider the child's social needs and those aspects of life that are outside of the classroom. I don't think this differs between "gifted" and "mainstream" children.

Perhaps I cannot relate because my child has not been dubbed "gifted" academically (though he's been called exceptional athletically, but I digress ), but the lesson I learned in my child's case was that academics are incredibly important, but a child's comfort level socially and otherwise today and in years to come can prove to be just as important, espeically for the child him/herself.

A couple examples: if he entered school a year early, my son would not be able to participate in youth organizations that base enrollment on birthdays. his peers in 1st grade who are 7 can play, but he would be 6 and unable to play. He would be one of the last ones in his class to get his driver's permit as he would be 16.5 a year after his classmates.

Just examples. But they spoke to me, as I want my children to experience a well-rounded childhood, teenage-hood and adult-hood... education is #1, but the "other stuff" is right up there at #2.
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#15 of 93 Old 07-28-2005, 02:26 PM
 
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if you want to skip the post below and ignore my rantings (I do go off sometimes ;->) at least please go bookmark www.hoagiesgifted.org. It's *the* online resource for gifted folk of all ages, and those who love them. It's huge. Take your time.

My two cents, as a gifted mom of two gifted kids, and a gifted-advocate, too;
(sorry so long, but it's a Big Issue with me :-)

Gifted kids don't just start out ahead and then keep pace with older peers. They keep on learning at a faster pace. A grade skip now is not much good when they're bored in the higher classes later on (a very plausible explanation for the phenomenon of grade-skipped kids "having trouble" in later years... they get bored again.)

A gifted kid is not just doing the same schoolwork as an older child, they also will tend to have advanced development in other areas, such as ethics, which can set them light years apart from older peers even more strikingly than their scholastic achievements.
I've seen gifted 3 year olds with more advanced ethics than most senior citizens. It's humbling. And it's horrifying to see them subjected to the typical ethics of average 3 year olds. The average 3 year old sees nothing wrong with that type of interatcion, and is not overly traumatized by it, a sufficiently gifted child, OTOH, may never recover.

A gifted child (or adult) does not need OLDER kids to act as peers, they need *true* peers. True peers are nothing but other gifted kids. There is no substitute.

The problem with finding true peers for gifted kids is that there are so few of them by definition.

A common view held by those trained to be educators (and I don't blame them for it, it's just what they're taught) is that all gifted kids can be served by the same gifted programs. This is very, very wrong, and does a great disservice both to the "majority" of gifted kids who may be well served by those programs, and to the "minority" of profoundly gifted kids who are not, and cannot be well served by them.

Imagine putting a kid with an average IQ in a class full of kids with IQs of 60.
That kid will be out of their mind with frustration.
That's essentially what happens to a kid with an IQ of 140 who's in a regular classroom.
(It still happens if that kid is grade-skipped, it may just take an extra year or two.)
It's also essentially what happens to a kid with an IQ of 170 in a 'standard' gifted class.

Testing not only allows parents and educators to know *exactly* what level of giftedness they're dealing with, when done properly, it also reveals areas of weakness. Even gifted kids can have learning disbilities. But due to being gifted, they may compensate enough to look "average" or even above. Looking like an average kid is not what I want for my gifted kids. I want them to be able to stretch their wings and have the full use of all of their talents. School is highly unlikely to do this for them unless I tell the school what is needed... and perhaps not even then.

A friend of mine has twin girls, one of whom was in gifted classes, based on school testing, one of whom was not,and was considered "slow". The "gifted" child was reading 8 years above grade level in 2nd grade. The "non-gifted" one was in remedial reading. They finally got an actual expert in gifted and learning disabled testing to have a look at both girls and found that they are both *profoundly* gifted (that is the term used to denote those with an IQ over 180) and the one the school thought was a bit slow had visual tracking issues.
6 weeks after beginning visual therapy, she is reading at a college graduate level, and improving. And yes, she understands those words. (A little sketchy on concepts, but not once they're explained). So this kid was looking at a lifetime of being a genius trapped by a correctable eyesight problem, and now she's looking at correspondence college courses in 3rd grade, and both girls are in several programs which gather profoundly gifted youngsters together so that they can socialize with true peers. The oen the school thought was a bit gifted is in the same league as her sister, but has other, also correctable challenges, which were holding her back too.

It's like a reprieve from a life sentence for the whole family. And I won't even bore you with the details of the oldest one who went from 3rd to 9th grade-gifted, and is *loving* it, or the "middle" child who has benefitted just as much... or the mother who suddenly understands that she's not a freak, and is beginning at age thirty-mumble to realize some of her own long-suppressed potential..

But so far I've never heard of a school district who uses the right tests to even *detect* kids like that, much less help them.

If you want to know what your kids really need, I cannot recommend strongly enough that you do some serious research, (start at hoagie's) find someone who has the tools to do what is needed, and do whatever you have to do to get the appropriate testing.

That family I mentioned before has traveled all the way across Australia 5 times to get everyone appropriately tested, and I know for a fact that they'd do it 10 times over, whatever the cost just to see what it has done for their children. And these are not "rich folks" by any stretch. They're frugal out of necessity.

For my own family, we're still saving our pennies. Things happened that set us way back. My oldest starts kindergarten next week, but her age slots in neatly with the age requirements, and the K program here is... likely to be inoffensive to her at least ;-> We should have her testing completed by next year, although we may be paying it off until they start college ;-p, and be able to figure out where she really needs to be, and what kind of help she may need to get there. Then there's the little one to consider ;->

It's kinda like car-seats... it's expensive and a PITA, and odds are, they might be fine anyway... but the consequences of not doing it can be truly unspeakable. Gifted kids sometimes even commit suicide over things that seem as "harmless" as inappropriate school placements. It can make them *that* miserable :-(

thus ends the soapbox :-)
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#16 of 93 Old 07-28-2005, 02:35 PM
 
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Silliest,
I thank you for your informative post. I just started reading this thread.
I have a very gifted 13 year old who has been underserved by the public school system since the beginning.
She was tested in Kindergarden but they seriously have been failing her from the beginning.
What I want to know is, what is the benefit of all of the testing you describe? Most public schools have a one size fits all gifted approach, often that doesnt begin until the 3rd grade. Do you expect to be able to persuade the school to handle the gifted child's needs better? Or is it to perhaps get a scholarship to a private gifted program? Or for homeschooling?
Every year my dd's teachers would tell me that "well we can skip her if you INSIST. But we generally dont recommend it. " Then they would recommend a particular teacher who really knows how to challenge gifted kids. (but never really did) It was the same almost every year.
She now has the "learned laziness" of many gifted kids. (myself and her father included).
I wish I had access to some of these links 8 years ago.

Ok so anyway,
Once you have all of this testing done. What do you do with it?
Joline
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#17 of 93 Old 07-28-2005, 02:56 PM
 
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Joline

I know you weren't addressing me, and I have no idea where you live, but you might want to consider something like this:
http://depts.washington.edu/cscy/eep/

It is an early entrance program for children under 15. The first year they do *all* of high school and from then on they are considered college students (at the University of Washington, for this one).

 

 

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#18 of 93 Old 07-28-2005, 02:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mummer
However, my point was merely that while finding a class or a school that meets your child's academic needs are important, it is also important to consider the child's social needs and those aspects of life that are outside of the classroom. I don't think this differs between "gifted" and "mainstream" children.
Thanks for the clarification. ITA, my point being that many gifted children have virtually no chance of having their social needs met in their age-based "normal" classroom.

 

 

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#19 of 93 Old 07-28-2005, 03:58 PM
 
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Hi Joline :-)

What you do with the testing will depend a lot on where you are, and sometimes how willing and able you are to relocate ;->
Some areas are just a wasteland for gifted services, and trying to change them *and* take care of your kids is a lost cause. I won't try to paint an over-rosy picture about that.

Other areas, while they won't listen to or take action based upon a parent's assessment of a child's needs, will, as soon as they see a "professional" opinion on the matter, will be more accomodating, and help the parents *find* ways to better serve the child. It's still a crapshoot, but the dice are a bit loaded in your favor with "official" testing.

Also, a really good battery of tests can open doors to LD services that are otherwise closed to any child who performs above "average". This depends on the district, and the local admin. And even if the official policy is friendly, you may have to point this out to the actual people you deal with.

In some areas, a child is considered to have "special needs" only if they perform below grade level. You may be screwed if that's the case.

In other areas, a child is considered to have "special needs" if they perform at a certain level below their *aptitude* scores. If this is the case, it is vital to have testing with a high enough ceiling to properly measure gifted kids. I'll use myself as an example.
When I entered 2nd grade, using grade-level testing, my aptitude scores were always 99%. I was performing at about 90% of grade-average, based on my report cards. If special needs was defined as "average performance for grade level, I was toast. If it was defined as being within a certain percentage of aptitude scores, I was still toast.
If I had been tested with appropriate instruments (which I eventually was) it would have been clear that my aptitude scores were still 99% of what an *8th* grader could do... and my performance was a mere 90% of 2nd grade level. A clear case of under-performance, which would in some areas, have qualified me for services.

Whether they would be *appropriate* services or not is another matter ;->

There are now a lot of distance programs like EPGY ( http://www-epgy.stanford.edu )for gifted kids, and more are becoming available every day. Even as early as pre-K. Some programs are like summer camps, some are like boarding schools, some are correspondence classes delivered by a local school or by parents, but administered by the gifted-school.

There are also a growing number of funding options for those programs. In some cases, districts are bound to provide a free and appropriate education, and they end up footing the bill. Sometimes it can cost you more to make that happen than the cost of the program, but if anyone else has gone before you to set a precedent, you may only have to present qualifying test results and ask for it.

At the bare minimum, the benefit of testing is that you and your child will know what's going on, and will be able to access appropriate informational resources to help *you* learn to deal with it. Whether you can access concrete assistance in doing so is less certain, but you definitely won't get into something like EPGY without the scores.
School testing, being designed to detect the less-able children, rather than quantifying the level of the highly gifted children, may not give you scores that are useful even for your own purposes. Especially if you are dealing with an LD/GT (AKA "twice exceptional") child.

Hoagies is also a great source of information for Gifted Adults dealing with our own issues, BTW ;-) Talk about a lack of true peers! <LOL!>
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#20 of 93 Old 07-28-2005, 04:04 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I think if he was physically even on average, but stature wise he was almost 40 inches at his 3 year check up.

I am 'homeschooling' as I believe that learning happens all the time, my parents are both teachers.

What do you hope to accomplish sending him early?
=Basically I want him to be more in with his peers academically, I don't want him getting bored in school. I want him to enjoy learning at school, he has already been in preschool and was bumped to the junior kindergarten age group.

My concern would be a social disadvantage of emotional immaturity despite his intellectual qualifications. Then he'll always be a year behind physiologically and developmentally, which I think might set him up for some challenges socially. If you are eager for him to progress with his learning, I bet there is a lot you could do at home to augment his intellectual growth!
=Actually thats the thing I am not eager for him to progress with his 'benchmark's I want him swimming with the rest of the fish, I want him to learn with his peers not be bored when he gets to school.

I am not sure about the social aspects, I was not skipped due to that 'emmotional maturity' excuse. I don't buy it, skipping me might have made me stand out a little less, socially the kid who is finished, read that book 5 years ago...bored out of their minds, removed to do extra/more challenging work. I don't want to go through all the 'gifted' programmes, as we all know there are good and there are the bad. I had a range of good to ugly in my years of school. I guess I want as normal experience for him as possible, without the meetings, the labels, the testing, the negative comments from teachers, etc.

There's no harm in asking for the school district to test him... though it's awfully late in the summer to be testing into kindergarten for fall, no? He couldnt test until school gets going, and then he'd enter school after it was already underway. I dunno, I'm not feeling good about it. Convince me!
=No there's no harm I guess, or I could get him privately tested. Oh yeah very late for Fall I guess part of it is I am not sure, I know he is totally ready for JK in September, but I am not sure what is the best place for him, homeschooling with me or in school. And who's to say that advanced placement will even do it. Many in my family were advanced placed only to skip more, or like my dh do his college diploma before his highschool....(he did mornings at highschool, afternoons at college)

I can always keep him home and start the dialogue with the school, and if he is ready he can start SK next fall.

Posts: 61 If you feel emotionally he's ready for Kindergarten, then I would say to go for it. "Gifted" preschools are VERY far and few between, but if you have one in your area, that could be an option as well.
=LOL I usually find that those are more for parents who wish their kid was gifted -the pretentious types - not the ones who really know what a gift gifted is

NCLB's pressures have made it imperative that teachers work on getting the lowest-performing kids to pass the tests; therefore, if a kid is gifted, they're very likely to be left to themselves or stuck in the corner reading.
=lol so true that was most of my school, reading a book after finishing the busy work

If your kid is way, way gifted, I'd really not even bother. What is a kindergarten teacher going to do with a kid who can read at the fifth-grade level, spell words I see the adults on this board messin' up on, and do multiplication, for instance? Really, what?
=lol Actually my kindergarten teacher 'put me to work', I was her helper, but I started K having finished the bobbsytwins set, and nancy drew before 1.

That kindergarten teacher's going to regard that kid as a pain in the butt, most likely, because he represents a whole new one-student class for her to prepare for. Whee. Moreover -- and this is the issue that gripes me most -- how is a gifted kid going to get challenged?
=True that is my biggest issue to keep challenging him so he loves to learn.
I don't want that robbed from my kids.

Posts: 1,268 The research doesn't support your opinion. In fact, it quite contradicts it, suggesting that there is very little (if anything) to worry about on the score of emotional immaturity and being a year behind.

http://www.nationdeceived.org/
=Thanks for that! I think it could be an issue in highschool for boys, my dh was a December baby and skipped - he was a little fart for most of highschool, but made up for it by being 6-1 or was it 6-2 before rugby....

My dh was a gifted child, who had a miserable experience at school as a small child. He used much bigger words than other children his age, and didn't fit in socially, so the other children picked on him a lot.
=lol I still run into that, english has thousands of words why just use a few
I learned to adapt and cover up that wordiness for a while but its so tiring.

The teacher thought he was a pain because he didn't fit her mold of how all the children should act (finished worked too quickly, asked too many questions etc). I would only start him early if you have met the teacher and feel that he is really going to be appreciated in her class.
=True enough! And when you don't do something well, I have mild dyslexia and it affects my spelling (its atroshush my handwriting is brutal as I have poor fine motor skills. And I keep forgetting kindergarten is a bunch of colouring pages, etc.

I think even though he would be ready, why bother I mean I can provide him with social opportunities, learning opportunities, out the world, he has plenty of time to sit behind a desk and practice colouring in the lines!


Perhaps I cannot relate because my child has not been dubbed "gifted" academically (though he's been called exceptional athletically, but I digress ),
=Yes I think the other 'gifts' are far more frustrating to deal with, intelligence has bench marks, measurements etc.

My two cents, as a gifted mom of two gifted kids, and a gifted-advocate, too;
(sorry so long, but it's a Big Issue with me :-)

Gifted kids don't just start out ahead and then keep pace with older peers
=AMEN! I have three kids my eldest is a very bright girl - straight A's, but pretty much in the top 5-10% loves to learn, and I know she's very smart, but gifted is 'different'. Its a quality, that is often hard to really describe to people who really think its 'early out of the gate', or just a bit ahead....
My middle child did everything freaky early, crawled at 4 months, ran at 8 months and two days, spoke very early (5 months complete words).

I've seen gifted 3 year olds with more advanced ethics than most senior citizens. It's humbling. And it's horrifying to see them subjected to the typical ethics of average 3 year olds.
=Or scary as hell I remember being that age terrified about the newspaper I was reading (cold war, russia nukes) lol I would get so concerned I would write letters to politicians....

A gifted child (or adult) does not need OLDER kids to act as peers, they need *true* peers. True peers are nothing but other gifted kids. There is no substitute.
=Amen and still true as an adult -the big lie my mom told me, when you are an adult you will have peers - B.S.

The problem with finding true peers for gifted kids is that there are so few of them by definition.
=And also that I think gifted kids really like other kids, they don't like to judge and they want to see the gifts in other kids... Hey why not MENSA for kids?
(lol its been years since I did mensa but......)

A common view held by those trained to be educators (and I don't blame them for it, it's just what they're taught) is that all gifted kids can be served by the same gifted programs=lol often taught by the same people teaching remedial work....my mom still saved a project (the last project) the inschool special ed woman asked me to do.....I guess my sense of sarcasm and writing abilities convinced them I needed a different programme - the project was something like "I AM SPECIAL BECAUSE"...

Beats my cousin who was the brightest of all of us, The kindergarten teacher asked them to draw a picture and write words below on farm animals =
'Sex Life of A Frog' = in kindergarten at 4, 16 pages, full diagrams - the teacher thought her older sister did it - my cousin refused to go back to school for weeks she was so insulted.

And gifted classes very rarely address the needs of more generalists, not geniuses. And girls - sigh......big holes like swiss cheese.

Wheh that's a long one

8 might be enough
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#21 of 93 Old 07-28-2005, 04:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by USAmma
In my school district they are very firm about not having any child, regardless of ability, start K early.
That's one reason I'm homeschooling Abi, so that if she wants to learn things beyond ABC she can (she is a beginning reader). I am not sure that I would have put her in early though, because I feel like she needs to mature more socially, even though she's ahead academically. My big gripe is not that they won't start them early, but that once they start, that the ones who are ahead are not put up with a higher grade just for those subjects. In my school district they will not allow children to move ahead, even for the subjects, until 3rd grade.
I know. Same here. Why are they so resistant to something SOOO SIMPLE??? If they coordinated subject areas with times (e.g., math from 8:00-8:45, reading from 9:00-9:45...) then Abi's Kid could go from Mrs. Smith (her basic home room) to Mrs. Jones (the second-grade reading teacher) until 9:45 and then come back. Why would that be such a big, huge deal? Yeah, some kids would be moving through the hall. BIG WHUP. It would be about 10% of the school population, so what's the big deal?

I don't get it. Any elem. teachers on here want to enlighten me? Us?
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#22 of 93 Old 07-28-2005, 04:25 PM
 
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There are a few fallacies to this argument, Mummer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mummer
But they said that children, particularly boys, being the youngest in their class tend to struggle around 5th grade or so, and then again in Jr. High School...
This is absurd. Name ONE PERSON who didn't struggle around those grades or experience "lots of emotional changes, physiological changes... " then. This is like saying that if you eat carrots, you'll die one day. No cause-effect here.

Quote:
.

The administrators that I spoke with have years and years of experience with children at various ages, so I trust their perspective (I've never had a 5th grader nor a Jr. High Schooler).
And how many people did they advance? And their conclusions are based on exactly how many cases? Five? Three? Two? Or are they based on a wealth of research material and longitudinal studies over decades?

One swallow does not a summer make; one failed kid does not make all kids failures.

Oh, and just because you've been doing something for a long time doesn't mean you've done it well. You could just have stunk for decades.

Finally, what you're describing is a situation of a normal child (yours). I'm not convinced that three days would have hurt him, but we don't have a "control" against which we can compare him.

We ARE, though, talking about a gifted child.

Just to give you perspective here, a gifted child with an IQ of 140 is just as much out of place in a normal class as a child with an IQ of only 60 would be. We would never, never put a kid with an IQ of 60 in a regular class -- we would recognize this as a disastrous mismatch. Somehow, though, it's okay to err on the other end.

Wrong.

Here's another way of looking at it: an eight-year-old with an IQ of 150 has a mental age of a child of 12. Do you really think that a sixth grader would be happy in a third-grade class?

Me neither.
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#23 of 93 Old 07-28-2005, 05:19 PM
 
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I have to agree that being younger isnt likely going to be any harder on a gifted child than just being gifted.
My best friend and I both started kindy when we were 4. Both of us "could have" skipped based on abilities but it was assumed that we were already so young that it would be bad for us socially.
But we grew up still never feeling we belonged to our peer group anyway. As adults we have both realized we probably wouldnt have had any more difficulty in an advanced grade than we had anyway with our close to age classmates.
We already stood out like sore thumbs. We were despised for our eagerness to learn. We were rediculed for always having the right answers. We were copied and bullied. I cant see that there was any advantage to not move us ahead.
The disadvantages were having only part time accellerated learning and therefore full time boredom in the regular class. Learned laziness.
If my youngest three turn out to be gifted as I was and my oldest is, I expect to homeschool. (after a HUGE fight with dh over it!)
Joline
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#24 of 93 Old 07-28-2005, 05:44 PM
 
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Amen and still true as an adult -the big lie my mom told me, when you are an adult you will have peers - B.S.
On that thought, none of you happen to live in Colorado, do you? As much as my almost 7 y/o is lacking peers who understand her, I am beginning to find that I do too. If you're anywhere near me, feel free to PM me!

As far as the social aspect is concerned, my girls have always been the youngest by quite a bit in their classes and my older one especially still doesn't fit in socially, but not b/c she is younger than the kids. She does better with the kids who are even older than those in her current grade. Many of the incoming second graders are a year older than she is (she made the cut-off by 2 weeks and some of the kids were held out the extra year). They still don't get her nor think about things in the way that she does. Children who are gifted are often as emotionally different from their same-aged peers as they are academically different. I just wish that I could put her in a class with a bunch of young adults; she'd just love it!

But, then eventually she'll be an adult, too and back to being different from her adult peers -- the same spot I am finding myself in!
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#25 of 93 Old 07-28-2005, 06:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I am beginning to find that I do too.
If you're anywhere near me, feel free to PM me!
=I wish, so does my dh. I spend the day mostly on the kids and sometimes housework I have few really intellectually stimulating social interactions with other adults during my day with the boys.

I get to the point where I just go numb or check out. I am the ultimate mama's group drop out....sigh....I always have such high hopes....but no peers for me.

Male friends that are intelletual are easy for me to find, I work in computers so there's plenty of peers my age in that field.

But I want a woman I can go jeans shopping with, talk about politics, our kids, you name it....sigh....well atleast my dh has one

Oh and and all the other myths of the gifted.
You'll have your pick of jobs (lol no, companies hate outside the box thinkers)
that being female and gifted will turn me into Margaret Thatcher...

and the fear of not fitting in socially should not be a gifted parents worst fear, they should fear if the child becomes a ring leader - I have seen this happen twice - smart kids can be pursuasive and can sometimes get more gullable kids to do very interesting, dangerous things...

8 might be enough
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#26 of 93 Old 07-28-2005, 09:46 PM
 
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[QUOTE=Shiloh
I am the ultimate mama's group drop out....sigh....I always have such high hopes....but no peers for me.

But I want a woman I can go jeans shopping with, talk about politics, our kids, you name it....sigh....well atleast my dh has one

Oh and and all the other myths of the gifted.
You'll have your pick of jobs (lol no, companies hate outside the box thinkers)
that being female and gifted will turn me into Margaret Thatcher...
[/QUOTE]

Yep, and yep and yep... do we need a GT-mamas thread in "finding your tribe"?
Seriously.

There is a place in the world for us, though ;-> an e-mail list called GT-adults. Not the same as face to face interaction, but whole heaping loads better than nothing :-D

send an email to [email protected] with " subscribe " in the subject

Note: this is *not* a crunchy-list, an AP list, or even a parenting list, though those topics may come up from time to time. It is a list for gifted adults to discuss being "Cheetahs in a world of lions" (to steal a metaphor from Hoagies)
and to kick back and enjoy making obscure jokes, playing on each other's words, and <gasp> socializing with our true peers (see, you don't need school for that!) <LOL!>

There are a wide range of IQ levels represented there from the "I just barely squeaked into the gifted program in my school" to a few who simply can't be measured accurately, they're so high. We all usually play nicely together. (But we are human, so tempers can flare) and the moderation policy is a *total* breath of fresh air compared to <koff> some places I could mention.

Since the overall range is so wide, we tend to have a lot of offlist conversation with our near-peers.

I will note, however, that the absolute only entry requirement for this list is hard and fast and inviolable.

You only belong there if you feel like you belong there. Lots of us have a whopping dose of "impostor syndrome" which is marked by thoughts like "If I'm so bright, how come I do such stupid stuff" and "If I was really that smart, I'd be Margaret Thatcher" (or "gainfullly employed", or "able to make friends", or whatever).

There is no IQ requirement. There is no test. No one will bite. And I would desperately *love* to have more like-minded women there to balance out the predominance of the male and the childless ;->

I don't normally spam people about it, but <ahem> it seemed like it might be well received here ;->
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#27 of 93 Old 07-28-2005, 10:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Charles Baudelaire
I know. Same here. Why are they so resistant to something SOOO SIMPLE??? If they coordinated subject areas with times (e.g., math from 8:00-8:45, reading from 9:00-9:45...) then Abi's Kid could go from Mrs. Smith (her basic home room) to Mrs. Jones (the second-grade reading teacher) until 9:45 and then come back. Why would that be such a big, huge deal? Yeah, some kids would be moving through the hall. BIG WHUP. It would be about 10% of the school population, so what's the big deal?

I don't get it. Any elem. teachers on here want to enlighten me? Us?
Your answer in one word: SCHEDULING!! If, for instance, the school serves grades K-5 (as mine does) and has one music teacher, one art teacher, one PE teacher and one cafeteria, then lunch blocks go something like this-
11:00-11:30 K eats lunch
11:30-12:00 1st grade eats lunch
12:00-12:30 2nd grade eats lunch
etc.
So, while your child's kindergarten class is doing Math, 2nd grade might be a lunch, and 1st grade might be at specials (art, music and so on). It is near impossible to coordinate so that all classes of the same grade are doing the same subject simultaneously, never mind the whole school.
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#28 of 93 Old 07-28-2005, 11:02 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Yep, and yep and yep... do we need a GT-mamas thread in "finding your tribe"?
=What does GT stand for?

You only belong there if you feel like you belong there. Lots of us have a whopping dose of "impostor syndrome" which is marked by thoughts like "If I'm so bright, how come I do such stupid stuff" and "If I was really that smart, I'd be Margaret Thatcher" (or "gainfullly employed", or "able to make friends", or whatever).
=LOL so true like if I am so bright why can I screw up making macaroni and cheese, why did I date such jerks, (oh nice hot bodies Why if being smart is such an asset everyone wants to either put me down or avoid me
Or why if you hate smart people do you want your kids to be 'gifted', no happy and fits in is what I want for my kids!

My worst one was I was so ugly duckling, geeky as a young kid, I thought men would never look at me...then sigh I grew huge breasts, got contacts...
and what a different world!

Or the if I am so bright why do I have to be forced into the world of really dumb people.....picture wedding showers.....sure the most intelligent thing we can do is eat really small sandwiches and drape eachother in toilet paper....

8 might be enough
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#29 of 93 Old 07-29-2005, 12:20 AM
 
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GT=Gifted and Talented...

like if we're so bright, why can't we come up with a less ambiguous and semantically loaded label? <heh>

And I can soooo relate to the rest of your thread! OMG!

Dating losers was my forte! I figure I scared off the decent ones with being "too smart" and ended up with the hot-looking idiots who weren't bright enough to know they oughta be scared <LOL!> (I finally got a good one, but day-um it took a long time and a lot of mistakes :-( better late than never, though)

*Nobody* talked to me at all until I grew breasts, and then they didn't talk to *me* anyway, just to the breasts! <LOL!> Now that I have kids, they've disappeared back into the woodwork, but if I go out alone I get guys talking to my cleavage just like they did when I was 20.

And wedding showers... yep... what's worse, though, is kid-birthday-parties.
My 5 yo just had her b-day. She didn't want anyone to bring presents because she didn't want the other kids to feel left out when she opened them. So the invites specified (against all rules of tact, I am sure) "Low-key is the party theme! The pleasure of the comany is the only gift "b-day girl" wants. " ) but every. friggin. parent. brought. presents. anyway. ARGH!
I will give 'em half-credit because they were all "shareable" toys, so a package got opened and *everyone* got sidewalk chalk, or to play in the sprinkler, or whatever.

But still <sigh> My kid has *great* moral development, why won't even the so-called adults honor it?

Oh well.
I burned out on b-day parties by age 10, and just asked for money to spend at half-price books <grin>.
I expect she will too.

It's too humiliating (getting gifts for "babies" all the time when people buy "age appropriate" stuff), demoralizing (that grasping greed rules), and overstimulating(especially when people insist on sugar).
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#30 of 93 Old 07-29-2005, 01:00 AM - Thread Starter
 
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GT=Gifted and Talented...
=LOL I guess I failed the first test
How about IQ interesting and quirky

Dating losers was my forte! I figure I scared off the decent ones with being "too smart" and ended up with the hot-looking idiots who weren't bright enough to know they oughta be scared <LOL!> (I finally got a good one, but day-um it took a long time and a lot of mistakes :-( better late than never, though)
=Amen I have a string of bad idea men But man were most of them buffed.

And wedding showers... yep... what's worse, though, is kid-birthday-parties.
=lol no kidding I am amazed at how adults behave at kids parties....
sure bob have another beer you'll only further look like an idiot
You dressed your kid in what to have a fun time...

But still <sigh> My kid has *great* moral development, why won't even the so-called adults honor it?
=lol cause everyone wants more landfill space in their name..

It's too humiliating (getting gifts for "babies" all the time when people buy "age appropriate" stuff), demoralizing (that grasping greed rules), and overstimulating(especially when people insist on sugar).
=yeah or overly sexist, gifts that show you didn't even think about the little girl, gift cards rule at my dd age....she thinks I have bad taste - and so she should as she is developing her own style and today my dh calls me over at the park there is a guy I used to work with - lol I am in glasses, ponytail and have two perfect ketchup circles from my hamburger on my chest

Yeah if I am so bright why can't I keep track of fashion?

8 might be enough
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