The Einstein Syndrome or Late Talking But Highly Intelligent - Page 2 - Mothering Forums
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#31 of 47 Old 07-23-2008, 11:18 AM
 
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marrying someone who you meet through work as opposed to mating patterns say 50 years ago
That's the big one right there. Before, you married someone appropriate from the town you lived in or from your school. Now, you basically can marry anyone from anywhere (I've met quite a few international-Internet couples) and people tend to gravitate to people more like themselves. All of my friends are engineers, accountants, or scientists and their wives are too. Like I said, it's total inbreeding. It's funny, because my DH is German and I am black and American but we are uncannily similar in our interests (although I'm not as V/S as he is). It's seems completely natural to us that we should be so alike, but if you think about it, the chances of that should normally be negligent. After all, gifties are usually defined as the top 2% of the population. And then you have to sort them for the mathematically gifted ones. How did we ever meet?!!
And when I think about the guys I dated they are: 2 software engineers, an electrical engineer (my DH), a physician, 2 physicists. Not your normal lineup, huh ladies? So, are we basically doing this to ourselves?
And how did I end up with 2 such kids? And one of them a girl. That was rare even in Sowell's group!
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#32 of 47 Old 07-23-2008, 12:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by VanessaS View Post
Umm... English please? For the uniniated among us, what is "ST"? I'm assuming "PS" is public school, am I right?
ST = Speech therapy (or some use it for Speech Therapist - depends on the context) So, I meant to say that speech therapy with school therapy tended to focus on children that had other developmental delays as well, and were probably not gifted. That was our experience. So having an introverted, perfectionistic, late-talker, smart kid in this scenario......well, let's say it wasn't the most conducive situation to get results quickly. Private therapy for ds was a much better approach.

Laura - Mom to ds (10) and dd (7) "Time stands still best in moments that look suspiciously like ordinary life." Brian Andreas.

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#33 of 47 Old 07-23-2008, 12:14 PM
 
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I am, especially in the summer, extremely glad that we sought out treatment for his admittedly mild symptoms.
Understandable-- his quality of life has been drastically imrpoved by therapy.

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Is he still quirky? Sure. But he's a heck of a lot more comfortable with his body than my dh is. Ds can wear sandals, dh can't. Ds can do somersaults, dh can't (he says he loses all sense of where his body is in space).
I still remember absolutely freaking out as a child when my mother gently suggested (in July) that I go outside to play even though I did not have a clean undershirt to wear, and that I could just wear a t-shirt. I mean I had a *complete meltdown*, and despite the fact that I was obscenely verbal (I was about eight), I couldn't articulate all the things that were WRONG with that idea. My mother did what she could think to do (after all, she had some sensory issues of her own as a child) but with the tools that a physical or occupational therapist would have given her, she would have been better able to help me and my siblings.

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But, I think the reason for the increase in these issues has to do with the fact that the human way of life has outstripped out biology for the moment.
This is actually about as close to proven fact as things get these days. It's happened to our bodies, it's happened to our eyesight, and yes, of course it's happening to our nervous systems. People are fat because they crave sugar; Well, craving sugar way back in the day meant that you craved fruit. Eating fruit was a good thing, provided a survival advantage... and you've got a whole world full of people who get that they crave sugar but find much eaiser ways to get it than eating fruit. It goes on and on like that. In fact, it could just as easily be argued that ADHD has the same cause. I read an article once which had a quote from a guy who was terribly successful at that point, but as a child had been "diagnosed" with ADHD. "Did your father put you on ritalin?" "No, he bought a farm."

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Originally Posted by LynnS6 View Post
If his parents had been given just a bit of education (yes, intervention) on ways to foster his language, this child would be in a very different place today.
This is one of the things that EI does, and they will often do it even if a child does not qualify for services.

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Originally Posted by VanessaS View Post
I've had a lot of difficulty finding out what EI does with highly intelligent late-speakers before the age of 3. Most resources just go on and on about how wonderful it is but never get down to specific activities.
Well, you could always call them up and ask; They're really quite nice. BizzyBug was a highly intelligent late speaker, but she doesn't quite fit the profile you're looking for. When I called about BooBah, they first gave me a better idea of "average," and the milestones that they're looking for in a two year old (for me, this was very important, as I was utterly clueless . They asked me some questions about her, and why I had concerns. They told me that her speech was well above average, but that I was correct to think that she might have a hearing problem because of her congenital kidney anomaly. Appointments were schedule for an evaluation with a speech therapist and a hearing test. I was told that even if her expressive language and receptive language were not deficient enough to qualify her for services that she *would* automatically qualify for services if she had a hearing deficit. In other words, they would assume that she had lost something even if she hadn't lost enough to be considered significantly delayed. (This is a problem that many parents of gifted/highly gifted children have, when it comes to getting services for a child who is twice exceptional.)

At the end of the evaluations, I was told that BooBah did not qualify for services, and I was given some information on things that I could/should do to encourage proper pronunciation. I was also given a list of things to look for, should I become concerned again later: i.e. loss of previously mastered skills.

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I could imagine that EI could be useful if it was directly mostly at the parents rather than the children.
In the case of highly gifted late talkers, once the evaluation was complete that'd be at least as much of a focus as anything given to the child. Some children, however, need more intervention than that.

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Perhaps everybody should get a rental, live-in grandma for 2 weeks every few months.
It's been suggested before.

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It's hard for me to imagine what they do with an 18-mo that I can't do at home. Although being at home, AP, relatively wealthy, and gifted myself, I admit that I do have certain advantages that other children's parents don't. Perhaps for some of them (whose children are stuck in low-quality day care, or their cribs and baby seats, or some such all day) would profit from this.
You're absolutely correct that in your case, there's very little that you couldn't do at home. I think it's very cruel of you to imply, though, that the children of less elite parents are either in low-quality daycare (though many are) or their cribs or baby seats all day. Some of them are just poor, or young, or have other children to be considered. That's just mean, to suggest that every parent can/should think of and implement these therapies on their own.

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Although I feel it would be a better use of taxpayer money to fund better-quality day care, maternity-leave, and parenting classes for EVERYONE than EI for those few children.
Again, that's assuming that such things would have had an effect. I'm not at all against high quality daycares or better materinty leaves, but I'm not convinced that they would rule out the need for EI in the majority of referred cases.

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What I, personally, really could have used would have been a parenting class to help me deal with having a visual/spatial child.
I think that what would help the most people would be parenting groups, similar to La Leche League, where parents can get together and discuss various kinds of children. Mandatory (or otherwise) classes would help some people, just as reading books helps some poeple, but I think that if there was a La Mamma League or something, people would be able to find other parents who had dealt with the things they're dealing with. THat said, the child of two highly gifted parents is still going to be a bit odd.

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I'm not sure what this means. The children aren't necessarily silent until 3. They just have a strongly limited vocabulary. Both of my children are actually very vocal (and loud!) they just don't converse.
Different subsets of late talkers, again.

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Originally Posted by That Is Nice View Post
I think this is a very good point. Also, I'm working on a theory that there are far more things now than there used to be that make many more children sensitive about things in the environment. I haven't fully developmed my theory on that yet, but I've seen so many articles and other information that points to correlations.
Again, this is damn near "proven fact."

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Originally Posted by LauraLoo View Post
Anyway, my theory is that there are going to be more and more kids like mine for the simple fact that analytical types are meeting at work and marrying each other. It's sort of like inbreeding.
True; This is considered the most likely root cause of the increase in autism diagnoses as well. I'll have to find that article abotu Silicon Valley (highest concentration of autistic children in the country, possibly the world).

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Umm... English please? For the uniniated among us, what is "ST"? I'm assuming "PS" is public school, am I right?
ST would be speech therapy in this context.

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#34 of 47 Old 07-23-2008, 12:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by VanessaS View Post
Just wanted to mention that my DS sight-read his first words yesterday. He recognized his sister's and his own names. It was a cool moment. I think he's just memorizing what the words look like, despite my attempts at phonics (why do I waste his time with the sequential stuff? ). Ah, well. To each his own...
It was a very, very small step but he was so happy I just had to share...
Very, very cool! DS was sight reading before he learned phonics -- and he was very into learning phonics. In a short time he exploded into reading fluently AND spelling. Even though he knows phonics, I can tell that it isn't his preference and he will only sound out words now when he has exhausted any other way of decoding it. And really, isn't reading mostly to get you to sight recognize words quickly? I mean, I only use my phonics abilities when I come across a word that I haven't seen before. I think the English language is a phonics nightmare anyway. Way too many exceptions to the rule.

Laura - Mom to ds (10) and dd (7) "Time stands still best in moments that look suspiciously like ordinary life." Brian Andreas.

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#35 of 47 Old 07-23-2008, 12:20 PM
 
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We're pretty sure BizzyBug learned to read before she learned to talk. By the time she was talking, she was reading... it was really quite disconcerting. She didn't understand it at all (hyperlexia), but she was definately reading.

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#36 of 47 Old 07-23-2008, 02:47 PM
 
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FWIW, I was told by EVERYONE in the US that I should wait until my DD was 3 to seek services...this was her preschool teachers and her pediatrician....even though I knew almost a year before that something was amiss - she could count to 20, do all her ABCs, colors etc by age 2 but there were no sentences coming.

I just think it's very hard before the age of 3 or 4 (well really longer - we still don't have a "definitive" diagnosis of any kind") to even tell what is causing particular symptoms in a child...it could be natural asynchronous development, it could be APD or ASD, it could be "einstein", it could be a bunch of things - only time really tells you what it ends up being....so why not just go ahead and do the services? Anyway, we ended up being put off by everyone until she was 3 and then it was like "all lights green - go get her evaluated RIGHT NOW"....and things went smoothly for us after that. I wonder if it is a smoother path to wait until a child is 3 to get them evaluated because of all the resistance you get from professionals who were taught to "wait and see"?

I digress....
LOL
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#37 of 47 Old 07-23-2008, 04:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by eilonwy View Post
True; This is considered the most likely root cause of the increase in autism diagnoses as well. I'll have to find that article abotu Silicon Valley (highest concentration of autistic children in the country, possibly the world).

ST would be speech therapy in this context.
Here you go:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9...ergers_pr.html

Now, what is EI?
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#38 of 47 Old 07-23-2008, 04:56 PM
 
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That's it, thanks.

EI is Early Intervention.

Rynna, Mama to Bean (8), Boobah (6), Bella (4) and Bear (2)
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#39 of 47 Old 07-23-2008, 05:29 PM
 
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Private therapy for ds was a much better approach.
I can imagine. I find it's generally difficult to locate resources that suit my children. Although that may be more of a general gifted-thing than having to do with late-talking.

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Very, very cool! DS was sight reading before he learned phonics -- and he was very into learning phonics. ... I mean, I only use my phonics abilities when I come across a word that I haven't seen before.
DS just spent the time before naptime playing a guessing game with me. What letter does the word start with? And he GOT THEM ALL RIGHT. We play this game all of the time (and I always use different words, so it's not just memorization) and he's never gotten any correct. You could have knocked me over with a feather. Every day he makes another step towards reading! Very exciting times here.
And, yes, I believe that most people sight-read words that they've already learned. But the phonetics are very useful when you come upon a new one.

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We're pretty sure BizzyBug learned to read before she learned to talk.
According to Sowell, that is actually common with late-talkers, especially those children who speak VERY late. He tells a funny story about a child whose mother discovered he could read well before he could speak. They were both walking to an entrance that had a sign saying "Please use door on the left." (or some such, I can't remember exactly) with no arrow and he promptly turned to the left door and walked through. His mother said she just stood there in shock when she realized what had just happened.

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I think it's very cruel of you to imply, though, that the children of less elite parents are either in low-quality daycare (though many are) or their cribs or baby seats all day. Some of them are just poor, or young, or have other children to be considered. That's just mean, to suggest that every parent can/should think of and implement these therapies on their own.
Oh, my. Argumentum ad hominem AND Argumentum ad misericordiam. That was a double-wammy and Rynna, you should know better.
Besides, I can't follow the logic of that comment since I used the phrase "Perhaps for some of them".
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#40 of 47 Old 07-23-2008, 07:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by VanessaS View Post
I've had a lot of difficulty finding out what EI does with highly intelligent late-speakers before the age of 3. Most resources just go on and on about how wonderful it is but never get down to specific activities.
It depends on the child's plan. And much of what they do in EI is directed toward FAMILIES not just the child. Just like if you've ever been in physical therapy to recover from an injury as an adult, the therapy is to demonstrate/monitor what you should do, and the home exercises are what build strength.

Much of it might not seem 'different' from average play, except that the therapist is breaking down the steps and directing the play with purpose.

So, for example for a child who has trouble articulating sounds, they might do exercises to work on building mouth muscles, blowing bubbles, blowing ping pong balls with straws, chewing on gummy foods, etc. Even educated parents don't necessary know to blow bubbles with a child to strengthen mouth muscles. Or to ditch the sippy cups in favor of open cups. (Maybe that's my next crusade -- all kids should drink from a regular cup at the table, and from water bottles with straws when it absolutely has to be covered.) So, what the speech therapist does is to demonstrate to the child how fun it is to try to blow bubbles, works with the child to position the wand and to blow so they can achieve some success, and then teach the parents about what to do because most parents don't understand the connection between mouth muscle strength and ability to form words.

If a child had trouble linking word with concept, they'd find ways to work on that.

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Originally Posted by VanessaS View Post
Okay... but are we talking about the exact same group of children here? Gifted late-talkers usually begin reading EARLY rather than late, especially if they're taught using the sight method (instead of pure phonics). Remember that most gifted late-talkers are late to speak (so the theory, at least) because their visual-spatial abilities are so large that they crowd out the speech abilities in their brains.
But there's a chicken and egg issue here - how can you tell whether or not you've got a bright late talker who will catch up on their own given time, or a child who won't? Comprehension and non-verbal communication skills can be good in a child who will still have great difficulty with expressive language, and later reading and writing. Actually children who have 'just' expressive language issues often have great trouble with writing later in the school years, it just doesn't show up until the middle/later grades because that's when you are expected to be able to write fluently.

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Originally Posted by VanessaS View Post
I'm not sure what this means. The children aren't necessarily silent until 3. They just have a strongly limited vocabulary. Both of my children are actually very vocal (and loud!) they just don't converse. <snip>. My DS didn't really speak for 23 months and then he woke up one morning with a 200-word vocabulary. Then he spoke single words for about another year and then he woke up with sentences.
My suspicion is that your kids wouldn't have been referred for EI in the US either -- they had good non-verbal communication skills, they had SOME words and they were making sounds. Most of those kids are referred for 'wait and see' and checked every 6 months. When your son was checked at 2, his 200 word vocab would have come out, and they would have smiled at you and said "come back in 6 months to a year."

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Originally Posted by VanessaS View Post
In other words, most children have to say "Mommy" and "ball" and the like for months before they move on to the next step. These children tend to stay non-verbal and then have a true language-explosion all at once.
Well, this is really variable according to individual learning style. So, I would just say that the "einstein sydrome" children are at one end of the scale in terms of they're learning style. There are more kids than you might think who DON'T go through the labeling stage much at all. It's also culturally quite variable. Kids in cultures where there's a lot of labeling of objects/people are more likely to do the "mommy" "ball" "go" stuff. Kids in cultures where they don't do this, tend to start with sentence fragments.

And then there are also kids who leap straight into sentences at 14-18 months and just by-pass the one word stage altogether. My sister was like that - it's just that her Charles Wallace Murray sentences came out at 1 1/2 and not 4. Our dd leapt straight into sentences at 18 months too - it's just that her sentences weren't quite as sophisticated as my sister's.

I still stand by my: I don't see any harm in an evaluation. Even for children who you suspect of being really bright. Do you know for a fact that intervention wouldn't help them? (And I'm not talking about kids who have words at age 2, I'm talking about the more stereotypical nonverbal child.)

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#41 of 47 Old 07-23-2008, 08:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by LynnS6 View Post
I still stand by my: I don't see any harm in an evaluation. Even for children who you suspect of being really bright. Do you know for a fact that intervention wouldn't help them? (And I'm not talking about kids who have words at age 2, I'm talking about the more stereotypical nonverbal child.)
I agree. Even evals for issues other than speech. A big issue with 2E is that these kids are so great at compensating that years can go by without help. Even if they are performing above level across the board, 2E kids can be performing well under their potential ability.

Laura - Mom to ds (10) and dd (7) "Time stands still best in moments that look suspiciously like ordinary life." Brian Andreas.

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#42 of 47 Old 07-23-2008, 08:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I agree. Even evals for issues other than speech.
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#43 of 47 Old 07-24-2008, 08:25 AM
 
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Even for children who you suspect of being really bright... And I'm not talking about kids who have words at age 2, I'm talking about the more stereotypical nonverbal child.)
Most children with Einstein syndrome (the topic of the thread) fit much closer to the description of my DS than to real "silent" children. Their parents aren't concerned that they aren't making sounds or usually even a few words but rather that they aren't speaking (using words consistently to communicate).
For instance, another child that age would say, "Mommy, banana." when he wanted one. My kids just point and grunt. And their concern actually usually begins AFTER the children have been evaluated and found to have nothing obviously wrong with them. After all, we want to know WHY our children aren't speaking and nobody will give us an answer. That's the scary thing about it.
Although I must say that my DD looks like she might not be such a late-talker as her brother as she went up to me yesterday with a Baby Bell cheese (you know, the red, waxed-covered ones), held it out to me, and said, "Help me, please." I just . She had to repeat herself three times before I reacted. And later, at dinner, she stood up in her booster sit (she likes to climb onto the table and I said, "Becky, sit down!" and she looked me straight in the eye and repeated my words exactly and then sat down. : It's very disconcerting to have a 16 mo not speak except to say full sentences or count.
Oh, yes, and I announced that Daddy's car was pulling up and she ran to the window to see and shouted, "Daddy's home!" and then ran to the front door to meet him.
Up until now she was pretty unresponsive to things we said (to the point where we were concerned that her hearing was impaired) and then overnight she starts speaking in sentences and reacting to spoken word. My kids are wierd even when they're NOT late-talkers. :

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A big issue with 2E is that these kids are so great at compensating that years can go by without help. Even if they are performing above level across the board, 2E kids can be performing well under their potential ability.
Okay, yes. I can see EI being useful for 2E kids. I actually worry about that a bit with my DS because he is so überintelligent that he could easily work around a disability and still be way ahead of his peers.

I'm reading the Upside-Down Brilliance book and it fits my DH, DD, and DS to a tee. Fascinating material.
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#44 of 47 Old 07-09-2013, 09:38 AM
 
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I and most of my family is twice exceptional. low short term and execution, high on all other intelligence scores. My Nephew recently tested 160's on all IQ's of the main 5 cognitive IQ's etc short term and execution IQ. those were 103 and 107 respectively, though I think compensated for by the rest of the intelligence! I only bring this up because I was a late talker and my daughter is too. I didn't speak a word until I was 3. Her's was 2 1/2. She's trying hard to learn it now. 

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#45 of 47 Old 07-09-2013, 03:31 PM
 
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My brother (Aspergers and probably gifted) didn't speak until he was past two and only when he needed a glass,of water- my family still talks about how he said "I want a glass of water"when he previously hadn't said anything at all! My son (highly gifted, no autism) made it his life's mission at 18 months to string a sentence together- by 22 months his language skills were rather astonishing.
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#46 of 47 Old 09-21-2013, 03:17 AM
 
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Hi - have you considered an auditory / auditory processing issue?  For instance, your DD may have a dichotomous hearing problem (inability to distinguish conversations and meaning in noisy situations).  It would only be picked up by an audiologist.  Sometimes kids are quiet when they find their situation confusing.

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#47 of 47 Old 09-21-2013, 08:40 AM
 
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FYI, this thread is five years old. I would imagine things have declared themselves for the original poster, though your comment is worth considering for any observers revisiting this thread.

 

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