Pertussis - does the vax really work? - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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Old 02-15-2009, 06:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Sileree View Post
There are between 800,000 to 3 million cases of pertussis a year according to serological testing studies. A pubmed article has been posted here often, I think by mamakay. By Cherry et al. I can try to post it later.
Yet the graphs, like this one (Fig 39)

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwr...m#00000461.gif

(this is from way back n 1993, but it's the link I already had, sorry it's not more recent, but you get the picture)

show that pertussis has dramatically gone down since the vax was introduced.

SO. Does that mean that pertussis still is around as it was pre-vax, but just it's not been labeled as pertussis (and the graphs are not staying on a horizontal line) because the symptoms are less severe post vax?

Sorry bad wording, baby crying!
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Old 02-15-2009, 07:51 PM
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there are a few issues to consider. people have started taking better care of themselves for one. and also, when a vaccinated child catches something its less likely to be diagnosed correctly as they will ASSume that it "can't" be that because the child is vaccinated against it. which effects the numbers in several ways (effeciacy as well as reported cases) and also results in these things not being properly treated.
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Old 02-15-2009, 07:53 PM
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here is another chart for you as well - (whooping cough is pertusis)... instead of showing from 1993 on, it shows from 1880-1970.

http://www.vaccinationdebate.com/web1.html
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Old 02-15-2009, 09:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Spectrolite View Post
So it sounds like I got it right?
The whole Pertussis deal in a nutshell?

And now I have to decide:

Do I want
a)my child to have less severe symptoms if she contracts Pertussis while she still has immunity from the shot + the forever mystery of what the vaccination and it's additives (Dtap-IpV-Hib in my country) are doing in her body + the "need" to get boosters as an adolescent and adult if she wants less severe symptoms should she get it again.

OR

Do I want
b)my child to have more severe symptoms if she contracts Pertussis, and more severe symptoms should she get the disease again (and again...and again), without ever having any possible side effects of the vaccination.

Is that right? Is that basically the choice I have to make? From the different papers I've read re highly vaxed communities getting outbreaks, to how transmission is possible regardless of being vaxed, this is how I'm breaking it down.
Yep. That's it.
In theory, when you're talking about small infants, "less severe symptoms" might be the difference between life and death, though (not likely, but still). Or between a hospitalization or not.
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Old 02-15-2009, 09:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by crazy_eights View Post
It sounds to me like this is similar to what is happening with Chicken Pox - we still have a lot of people getting it, sometimes it is less severe if they have been vaccinated and it seems to push the disease into a higher age bracket. But in the case of pertusis, that is probably a good thing?
No, the pertussis vax hasn't pushed pertussis into an older age group. It would have to be more effective to do that. (whereas, the chickenpox vaccine does work better, and really is doing that).

The whole "emergence of pertussis in teens and adults" is a diagnostic phenomenon. They used to think pertussis was only a disease of childhood, but once they figured out that a lot of those bad, lingering coughs adults get is actually pertussis, it started being diagnosed more in that age group.
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Old 02-15-2009, 09:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Spectrolite View Post
Yet the graphs, like this one (Fig 39)

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwr...m#00000461.gif

(this is from way back n 1993, but it's the link I already had, sorry it's not more recent, but you get the picture)

show that pertussis has dramatically gone down since the vax was introduced.

SO. Does that mean that pertussis still is around as it was pre-vax, but just it's not been labeled as pertussis (and the graphs are not staying on a horizontal line) because the symptoms are less severe post vax?

Sorry bad wording, baby crying!
In 1993, they thought pertussis was on the way to eradication, and that the vax was really effective, and that vaxed kids don't get pertussis. They weren't even testing coughing vaxed kids for it. They were diagnosed as other things. So, yeah...there weren't a lot of cases being reported then.
But, the vax sometimes/often does "mute" the symptoms below the WHO's case definition of "clinical pertussis" which requires a minimum of 6 weeks of coughing, etc. So in that sense, the chart isn't completely fictional.
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Old 02-15-2009, 09:31 PM
 
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Here's an example of how pertussis has always been misdiagnosed:

http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/128/1/64

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Similar studies [12-17] done in adults in the United States, Australia, and Germany have had generally similar findings. Twelve percent to 32% of persons with prolonged cough have been found to have pertussis. In our study, important clinical findings in persons with pertussis were that the median duration of cough illness before seeking care was 21 days, productive cough was rare, the most common clinical diagnosis was bronchitis, and in no case was the diagnosis of pertussis entertained [10].
It's probably the same (to some extent, to this day) with vaccinated children.
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Old 02-15-2009, 09:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Spectrolite View Post
Yet the graphs, like this one (Fig 39)

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwr...m#00000461.gif

(this is from way back n 1993, but it's the link I already had, sorry it's not more recent, but you get the picture)

show that pertussis has dramatically gone down since the vax was introduced.

SO. Does that mean that pertussis still is around as it was pre-vax, but just it's not been labeled as pertussis (and the graphs are not staying on a horizontal line) because the symptoms are less severe post vax?

Sorry bad wording, baby crying!
You need to go back further than these graphs show. Only showing the diseases just before a vaccine is introduced is not going to give you the full history of the disease.
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Old 02-15-2009, 11:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mamakay View Post
No, the pertussis vax hasn't pushed pertussis into an older age group. It would have to be more effective to do that. (whereas, the chickenpox vaccine does work better, and really is doing that).

The whole "emergence of pertussis in teens and adults" is a diagnostic phenomenon. They used to think pertussis was only a disease of childhood, but once they figured out that a lot of those bad, lingering coughs adults get is actually pertussis, it started being diagnosed more in that age group.
But we really don't seem to have many babies getting pertusis.
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Old 02-16-2009, 12:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mamakay View Post
Yep. That's it.
In theory, when you're talking about small infants, "less severe symptoms" might be the difference between life and death, though (not likely, but still). Or between a hospitalization or not.
to add to this then...

quoted from the post by LilacMama titled "Help me decide about DTaP"

"My daughter is 7 weeks old and I'm considering the DTaP vaccine for her. I've read through Dr. Sears' book and the CDC's Pink Book.

Help me out here -- The Pink Book says that 85% of the deaths related to pertussis were in infants under 3 months of age. Well, they don't start vaccinating until 2 months of age! Furthermore, it says that the vaccine is 70%+ effective AFTER 3 doses. Ummmm? By the time she's 6 months old and has gotten a full 3 doses, the chances of her having a long-term complication from the disease are VERY low -- right? "

i.e. nobody can really "save" the infants from pertussis, regardless of whether or not they are in vaccinated communities?
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Old 02-16-2009, 12:18 PM
 
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But we really don't seem to have many babies getting pertusis.
data please
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Old 02-16-2009, 12:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mamakay View Post
No, the pertussis vax hasn't pushed pertussis into an older age group. It would have to be more effective to do that. (whereas, the chickenpox vaccine does work better, and really is doing that).

The whole "emergence of pertussis in teens and adults" is a diagnostic phenomenon. They used to think pertussis was only a disease of childhood, but once they figured out that a lot of those bad, lingering coughs adults get is actually pertussis, it started being diagnosed more in that age group.

so are you saying that the adults(who were vaxed as kids) who get that 'lingering cough', and are finally diagnosed with pertussis have lost their immunity from vaxes taken way back then?

is immunity eventually lost 100%?


(i feel like i'm going around in circles....)
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Old 02-16-2009, 04:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Spectrolite View Post
to add to this then...

quoted from the post by LilacMama titled "Help me decide about DTaP"

"My daughter is 7 weeks old and I'm considering the DTaP vaccine for her. I've read through Dr. Sears' book and the CDC's Pink Book.

Help me out here -- The Pink Book says that 85% of the deaths related to pertussis were in infants under 3 months of age. Well, they don't start vaccinating until 2 months of age! Furthermore, it says that the vaccine is 70%+ effective AFTER 3 doses. Ummmm? By the time she's 6 months old and has gotten a full 3 doses, the chances of her having a long-term complication from the disease are VERY low -- right? "

i.e. nobody can really "save" the infants from pertussis, regardless of whether or not they are in vaccinated communities?
Well, according to the little evidence out there, even one dose probably does have some protective effect, however small, so the vaxes between 2 and 4 or 6 months probably does reduce pertussis mortality in infants by some degree. We're not talking about huge numbers...maybe 10-50 babies a year out of our 4 million birth cohort. But I bet it happens.

No way to really know for sure, though.
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Old 02-16-2009, 04:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Spectrolite View Post
so are you saying that the adults(who were vaxed as kids) who get that 'lingering cough', and are finally diagnosed with pertussis have lost their immunity from vaxes taken way back then?

is immunity eventually lost 100%?


(i feel like i'm going around in circles....)
Not just that, but they probably lost their "natural immunity", too. We're all exposed (or mildly infected with) pertussis every 3-5 years or so. It's when you go "too long" without running into pertussis, and THEN catch it again, that you'll get a bad case.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...ull/115/5/1422

Quote:
Household-contact studies have indicated that infection without illness is common.40,41 These data suggest that frequent exposures maintain antibody levels in many persons at protective levels. Illness only occurs when antibody values have fallen below critical values, and then exposure occurs.
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Old 02-16-2009, 04:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Spectrolite View Post
data please
Relevant to that discussion, is this:

http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/...-unvaccinated/
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Old 02-16-2009, 06:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Super Glue Mommy View Post
there are a few issues to consider. people have started taking better care of themselves for one. and also, when a vaccinated child catches something its less likely to be diagnosed correctly as they will ASSume that it "can't" be that because the child is vaccinated against it. which effects the numbers in several ways (effeciacy as well as reported cases) and also results in these things not being properly treated.
I totally agree! When I took e to the doc the other day I asked if it COULD be pertusis ( since J is a year this week) and he told me " oh no, it couldn't be, there is a vax for that ( we don't vax) and that he is to old ( he will be 4 in Apr)
WOW I am glad that they go to school for so long :eyeroll:

Living DAIRY AND GLUTEN FREE for my SPD and Aspergers Little Man.
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