Pertussis - does the vax really work? - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 46 Old 02-08-2009, 07:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Guess the title says it all...

wondering if the dpt really does prevent pertussis...or are there breakthrough cases.

Links would be greatly appreciated!
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#2 of 46 Old 02-08-2009, 08:03 PM
 
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The is vaccine failure in the case of the P portion, but I, IMO, it's pretty effective and studies demonstrate that, when you DO get pertussis and have had the vaccine, the disease is shorter and less severe. That is why I feel it is a good vaccine to get (along with the reasons for D, but speaking specifically of the P portion here). (I also am assuming you mean DTaP?)

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#3 of 46 Old 02-08-2009, 08:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by carriebft View Post
The is vaccine failure in the case of the P portion, but I, IMO, it's pretty effective and studies demonstrate that, when you DO get pertussis and have had the vaccine, the disease is shorter and less severe. That is why I feel it is a good vaccine to get (along with the reasons for D, but speaking specifically of the P portion here). (I also am assuming you mean DTaP?)

Yes, DTaP....both my boys have gotten some of it as I felt the P part was important to me, and low and behold, they've both had a failure significant exposure. And now my oldest is experiencing symptoms, but I'm not sure if its fall out post flu/pneumonia that he might have just been unlucky enough to catch another virus, or...could it be pertussis.

Over the 2 weeks (once he got past the flu/pneumonia) he's just had general cold symptoms, and a lingering cough. The past few days have been a bit different, more of a hard cough, persistent fever of about 100 or so, and he's been close to vomiting after an episode of coughing.

But, now that I found out that an adult just tested pos, I'm starting to wonder if he just might - the direct contact was about 2 weeks ago.

Could totally be overreading his symptoms and the time frame, but, sigh...
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#4 of 46 Old 02-08-2009, 08:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by monocyte View Post
Guess the title says it all...
wondering if the dpt really does prevent pertussis...or are there breakthrough cases.
Links would be greatly appreciated!
Yes ... although having fully immunized older family members is also important. If the parents and older siblings are immune, the baby is safer. Bordetella is a @#$%@#$ of a bacteria to immunize against for technical reasons.

http://www.wpro.who.int/NR/rdonlyres...s_DTP3_big.jpg

Compares cases versus vaccine coverage.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwr...s/r704a1f2.gif
Pertussis cases from 1920s on ... notice the decrease after the vaccine, although with the baby boom of the late 1940s and 1950s, you would have expected a huge increase.
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#5 of 46 Old 02-08-2009, 08:51 PM
 
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Yes ... although having fully immunized older family members is also important. If the parents and older siblings are immune, the baby is safer. Bordetella is a @#$%@#$ of a bacteria to immunize against for technical reasons.

http://www.wpro.who.int/NR/rdonlyres...s_DTP3_big.jpg

Compares cases versus vaccine coverage.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwr...s/r704a1f2.gif
Pertussis cases from 1920s on ... notice the decrease after the vaccine, although with the baby boom of the late 1940s and 1950s, you would have expected a huge increase.
The vaccine does not prevent transmission, so your first statement of vaccinating older siblings and parents for the baby's safety is erroneous.

Here is some helpful info about pertussis.
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#6 of 46 Old 02-08-2009, 09:11 PM
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me, my ds1, and dd all got whooping cough when ds2 was a few months old. (DS1 vaxxed FULLY for this, dd I believe was fully vaxxed for this at the time she got it.... DS2, the baby, was never vaccinated against it) well, we all got SUPER sick... but DS2 just got a little cold and an ear infection. he got sick after all of us and better before we all did too... just my experience.

ds2 who was up to date on vaccines at the time got it the worst, but I think that is because he was the one who "brought it home" dd had a mild case, but I suspect her immune system is a little stronger because it hasnt been bombarded with vaccines (she was vaxxed on schedule until 1 year, then had the measles vax at 18 months) and DS2 was being breastfed so, its not really fair to compare in that sense, but if I wasn't factoring the "differences" the way the CDC doesnt factor them in, then in my family, it would seem this vaccine makes you more likely to get P and the more doses you have the worse the case lol...
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#7 of 46 Old 02-08-2009, 09:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Lazy Gardens View Post
Pertussis cases from 1920s on ... notice the decrease after the vaccine, although with the baby boom of the late 1940s and 1950s, you would have expected a huge increase.
There are between 800,000 to 3 million cases of pertussis a year according to serological testing studies. A pubmed article has been posted here often, I think by mamakay. By Cherry et al. I can try to post it later.

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#8 of 46 Old 02-08-2009, 09:48 PM
 
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When looking for pertussis information, I look to this article a lot because it has tons of studies linked at the bottom. So It has helped me find a lot of information on the subject. The thread about pertussis transmission in the archive is also useful.

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi...91?cookieSet=1

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=998940

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#9 of 46 Old 02-09-2009, 12:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monocyte View Post
Guess the title says it all...

wondering if the dpt really does prevent pertussis...or are there breakthrough cases.

Links would be greatly appreciated!
With pertussis, it depends on how you're defining "works". As a general rule, the vaccinated apparently do still catch pertussis, but the cough isn't as bad and doesn't last as long.

It's like..."pertussis: the bacteria"....the vax doesn't prevent infection with that.

But, "pertussis: the clinical disease" is defined by a set of symptoms that go along with the bacteria, like coughing for at least 6 weeks, etc. The vax DOES prevent that most of the time.

So hopefully if you guys do have pertussis, maybe they'll only cough for a couple of weeks and not a couple of months.
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#10 of 46 Old 02-09-2009, 01:21 AM
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guess the vaccine didnt work for my kids then. we were sick for MONTHS. very nasty thing to catch. coughing till we threw up sometimes. (it was kind of wavering though, but mostly horrible) I guess my 2 kids who were upt to date on DTaP at the time fell into the "less of the time" population...
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#11 of 46 Old 02-09-2009, 01:48 AM
 
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Yeah, it completely fails sometimes, too.
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#12 of 46 Old 02-09-2009, 09:17 AM
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yea, its not about the individuals its about the herd. I understand that. I just feel my first 2 would have been more protected by it if I was still breastfeeding and they hadnt gotten the vaccine. I am thankful the baby didnt catch it, but it seems my family is immune to vaccines lol (except when they want to cause nuerological life long damage ). they got rotavirus right after my daughter was vaccinated for it. (wasnt a big deal, not sure why I vaccinated for it, probably because I hadnt read anything at the time)
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#13 of 46 Old 02-12-2009, 04:51 PM
 
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would anyone get the single vax for it?
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#14 of 46 Old 02-12-2009, 05:01 PM
 
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There is no single vax for it.
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#15 of 46 Old 02-12-2009, 05:59 PM
 
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I'm a non-vaxer so that this for what it's worth but I recently has pertussis and I have a non-vaxed baby in the house (she was about 7 months when I realized what I had).

I was fully vfaxed as a child and even had the DTAP booster a few years ago before finding MDC. I still have the cought 2 months later. The cough, the whoop, and a little bit of a runny nose are all my symptoms. I have a decently strong immunie system being the only one in my office not to get any of the flu/colds each year.

I am past the contagious period and we should be past the incubation period and the baby still has not gotten it.

I personally do not believe it really does much. I wouldn't get it for the herd immunity argument either since it does not prevent transmission. I don't understand how something can help with herd immunity while not preventing sickness or transmission.
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#16 of 46 Old 02-14-2009, 07:08 PM
 
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Carriebft,

Can you re-post that link
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi...91?cookieSet=1
?
I tried going there but it gave me an error page.
Thanks

And hello all, this is my 1st post.... My head is spinning with late night sessions (and on and off daytime sessions too) on MDC trying to get info on vaxing. Still on the fence... Dd is 5 months and is still pure on in the inside --and I love it. But I'm still iffy. This is SO HARD. We are taking a trip between the US and Europe in a few months and the fact that we'll be around so many different unhealthy people (at airports, in the planes, in cities, etc) really really bugs me. : But maybe i'll write a separate post on all that later
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#17 of 46 Old 02-14-2009, 07:39 PM
 
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http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi...0.1086/421091?

thart should work!

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#18 of 46 Old 02-15-2009, 12:58 AM
 
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Originally Posted by carriebft View Post
I haven't had time to read the whole thing but it seems that the study is recommending using Dtap in older adolescents and adults. At the bottom of the page it lists Acknowledgements which lists "Barbara Howe (GlaxoSmithKline Vaccines)". It also lists "Financial disclosure. GlaxoSmithKline Vaccines (unrestricted educational grant)." And "Conflict of interest. All authors: No conflict." I don't know what the technical definition of conflict of interest is but it looks like a vaccine company at least partially funded the study and in my book that's a conflict of interest.

But you are right in that there's TONS on links at the bottom. Some much info...so little time...
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#19 of 46 Old 02-15-2009, 01:04 AM
 
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I don't keep that one bookmarked for the study itself (the actual study on teen and adult use of pertussis vax); I keep it, like I said, because it is a good collection of pertussis studies. don't read my posting of the link as an advertisment of the actual study in the body of the link; I just use it for all the stuff in the citation section. there are a lot of great ones there for both sides of the argument.

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#20 of 46 Old 02-15-2009, 05:14 AM
 
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Yes ... although having fully immunized older family members is also important. If the parents and older siblings are immune, the baby is safer.
I'd be really interested to see if anyone has any evidence that immunizing parents with the tdap protects infants.
I've looked through the CDC's ACIP MMWR recommendation for the Tdap (wow, that was a lot of abbreviations!) and the idea appears to be completely evidence-free.
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#21 of 46 Old 02-15-2009, 07:47 AM
 
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Maybe this has been posted before, but I found this site also to be useful. It's an Italian study titled: Diagnosis and management of pertussis.
It contains a ton of references.

http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/172/4/509#R20-33
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#22 of 46 Old 02-15-2009, 02:20 PM
 
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monocyte--
how is your family? did you get a pertussis diagnoses? i hope not.... but can you give us an update?

hope you're doing ok!!
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#23 of 46 Old 02-15-2009, 02:24 PM
 
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It seems like the vaxed can get sick anyway.
And the unvaxed can get sick too.
The disease is still so common.

So if the unvaxed and vaxed can still get sick (more severely and less severely, respectively), and both groups can still transmit the disease while sick,

what's the point of having the vax at all? (other than having less severe symptoms)

(btw, I am just starting my research... I would love answers from all sides, as well as any links to professional papers
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#24 of 46 Old 02-15-2009, 02:58 PM
 
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what's the point of having the vax at all? (other than having less severe symptoms)
Having less severe symptoms is what you're left with.
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#25 of 46 Old 02-15-2009, 03:36 PM
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you forgot and both groups can still transmit the disease even when they arent sick.
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#26 of 46 Old 02-15-2009, 04:33 PM
 
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So it sounds like I got it right?
The whole Pertussis deal in a nutshell?

And now I have to decide:

Do I want
a)my child to have less severe symptoms if she contracts Pertussis while she still has immunity from the shot + the forever mystery of what the vaccination and it's additives (Dtap-IpV-Hib in my country) are doing in her body + the "need" to get boosters as an adolescent and adult if she wants less severe symptoms should she get it again.

OR

Do I want
b)my child to have more severe symptoms if she contracts Pertussis, and more severe symptoms should she get the disease again (and again...and again), without ever having any possible side effects of the vaccination.

Is that right? Is that basically the choice I have to make? From the different papers I've read re highly vaxed communities getting outbreaks, to how transmission is possible regardless of being vaxed, this is how I'm breaking it down.
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#27 of 46 Old 02-15-2009, 05:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Spectrolite View Post
It seems like the vaxed can get sick anyway.
And the unvaxed can get sick too.
The disease is still so common.

So if the unvaxed and vaxed can still get sick (more severely and less severely, respectively), and both groups can still transmit the disease while sick,

what's the point of having the vax at all? (other than having less severe symptoms)

(btw, I am just starting my research... I would love answers from all sides, as well as any links to professional papers
This is why I will never vax again. These things don't scare me, the vax's do. Most things are most dangerous the first two years and the vaxes are often not as effective as they are going to be until after then anyway.

I would rather my childrens have pure immune systems that are build to handle fighting of bugs that altering them and making them weaker, and still susibtible to things. ( IMO will be more dangerous since they have been altered.)
Plus I am not cool with aborted fetus's in my vaxes and metals and other animals proteins, that is just me though.

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#28 of 46 Old 02-15-2009, 05:07 PM
 
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that was basically what it came down to for me. and then i was looking at an italian study, i have a hard copy of it if you want the reference and looking at the numbers it showed _statistically_ less severe symptoms, with some of the vaxed kiddos having a cough for quite a bit longer than the unvaxed kiddos.

of course, most of them had symptoms of less duration but what if my kid is one that gets the shot and still has a cough for 40 days? what exactly did i accomplish with that vaccine?

i'm still holding off on that one for dd and ds is not getting his booster yet either.

eh. who needs a signature?
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#29 of 46 Old 02-15-2009, 05:15 PM
 
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It sounds to me like this is similar to what is happening with Chicken Pox - we still have a lot of people getting it, sometimes it is less severe if they have been vaccinated and it seems to push the disease into a higher age bracket. But in the case of pertusis, that is probably a good thing?
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#30 of 46 Old 02-15-2009, 05:32 PM
 
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Playamama, yes, ref please! (on the italian study)
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