Please give me your opinions, pro and con, on the chickenpox vax. - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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Old 07-12-2010, 10:21 AM
 
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The same reason you need booster shots.
I see this as the real issue. They know about how long the CP vac will last (given as a child till adulthood) given the current state of health care, I highly doubt many adults will re-booster and keep doing so every few years, many do not do DPT, why would the pay to do CP as well. $$$$$$$$ reason so many seniors will not get the vaccine for shingles (they have done several stories about this --very easy to find) -


http://www.cleveland.com/healthfit/i..._shingles.html

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15003094/

and given the fact that as some people age, they are not ideal (immune issues) and can not even get the shingles vaccine


as with most, you don't know really in the US if your immunity has vaned unless you have a reason to test (EX. preggers and tested for German Measles)---will CP be added for being pregnant in the future? and who is willing to pay for adult males to be tested and re-boostered?

 

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Old 07-12-2010, 10:23 AM
 
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Originally Posted by serenbat View Post
NO- you are NOT to get it if your immune system is weakened - per the CDC (this is also stated by the manufacture on the product insert)



www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/should-not-vacc.htm

has a weakened immune system because of
HIV/AIDS or another disease that affects the immune system,
treatment with drugs that affect the immune system, such as steroids,
cancer treatment such as radiation or chemotherapy,
a history of cancer affecting the bone marrow or lymphatic system, such as leukemia or lymphoma.

I feel you are overreading what you are seeing in these package inserts. I feel that many of the things on there are "covering their butts" in the way that they say measles vaccine can spread measles but we have yet to see it, kwim?

1- the vaccine does prevent shingles 50% of the time, we have ample evidence of this. does it prevent in all people? no. could it prevent for a period and then latent pox return-ie shingles? possibly, I suppose we will see in the follow up to the study I posted. But for now it seems preventative for a good many years in 50%-67% of those who get it.

2- people 80+ years many times have a number of issues that lead to a suppressed immune system- when compared to a younger adult especially. We see in the study I posted that the vaccine was given to people who had such issues seen naturally with age and it was tolerated well.

3- I fail to see in your "several" links of evidence where they state that someone who has the chicken pox vaccine in contagious ___ days before the vaccine caused rash breaks out. The first link is broken. The second link is the package insert that transmission to susceptable groups can happen post vaccination in those who develop a rash and that cases of nonrash transmission "have been reported" (but they have never been documented,) you can see this all over google scholar.

It's the same with the measles vaccine insert. It says theoretically you can pass measles after getting it, but it has not actually happened or ever been documented. So I would love to see actual evidence for the words you are using rather than a vague kind general statement.

also, many of your links in this thread are broken.

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Old 07-12-2010, 10:27 AM
 
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My kids were exposed to a little girl who had caught CP from her freshly vaccinated cousin. So it does happen. Of course my kiddos didn't get it, though I wish they would have. I too have also heard that it is the lack of re-exposure (meaning our kids aren't getting it therefore we aren't getting a natural "booster") that is the cause for more cases of shingles. So in essence, the CP vaccine is contributing to more cases of shingles, which Merck conveniently has a vaccine for...hmmm.

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Old 07-12-2010, 10:57 AM
 
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Originally Posted by shelbean91 View Post
My 9 month old, fully bf son was the one who had CP first and he caught it from a child who had just been vax's. There was only one place he had been with me and not the other 2 kids and we were near a child who had just been vax'd. Not a question that's where he caught it.

However, once exposed to varicella - whether wild or from the vax, it lies dormant in your system and there is always a chance it will reoccur as shingles at some later date. It's suspected there are more cases of shingles now b/c there are fewer cases of CP, which had been acting as a natural booster 'shot'.

I'll take my chance with the virus and the virus alone instead of the virus in whatever soup of chemicals they use to make it. I'm not anti-vax, but the CP vax was created as a money maker, nothing else, IMO.
It takes 15-20 days post chicken pox vaccine to shed enough virus to even possibly infect others (+ presence of the rash).

Did they test your children to see if it was OKA?

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Old 07-12-2010, 11:01 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Amila View Post
My kids were exposed to a little girl who had caught CP from her freshly vaccinated cousin. So it does happen. Of course my kiddos didn't get it, though I wish they would have. I too have also heard that it is the lack of re-exposure (meaning our kids aren't getting it therefore we aren't getting a natural "booster") that is the cause for more cases of shingles. So in essence, the CP vaccine is contributing to more cases of shingles, which Merck conveniently has a vaccine for...hmmm.
Again, is takes more than 2 weeks for a child to build the kind of viral load necessary to even "theoretically" infect others. So its really not "freshly" vaccinated kids you should be watching out for. It's kids who got their vaccine 2.5-3 weeks ago.

But again, I don't think it is a very large risk at all.

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Old 07-12-2010, 11:17 AM
 
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I am going to be out of the country for 2 weeks with no internet, but I would love if someone could post some studies that tell us that shingles is increasing because vaccinated kids are developing shingles from their vaccine virus lying dormant in their body.

All the studies and models I have looked at conclude one of three things:

-shingles is not increasing
-shingles will increase for 3 decades post introduction of vaccine and then fall dramatically from there because of the exposure angle, NOT because people have OKA in their system (or studies that confirm this)
-shingles was increasing before the oka strain vaccine

examples of each:



http://www.springerlink.com/content/g15580j564817406/

http://journals.cambridge.org/action...ne&aid=1231812

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18419401

studies showing shingles less likely or no greater in those who have been vaccinated- yes, they all look at children with leukemia, but that population makes for a study where you will have shingles in large numbers in the child population:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3...,f1000m,isrctn

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2...,f1000m,isrctn

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...,f1000m,isrctn


So what I am looking for is actual studies/evidence that varicella vaccination in and of itself, the oka strain residing in the body, causes more shingles cases and is responsible for the shingles increase.


Also evidence for this statement:

Quote:
They know about how long the CP vac will last (given as a child till adulthood)
I have yet to find anything definitive on this. where did you get this information? we know its good for at least 13 years and at least 30 years based on two studies that I know of, but they made no predictions into the future as to how much longer after that it could last.

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Old 07-12-2010, 11:22 AM
 
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the vaccine does prevent shingles 50% of the time
can you provide a link that says this?

It help lessen the effects in only 50%- there is nothing that will prevents you from breaking out, it is not designed to do so. The shingles vaccine lessens in about 50% and there is no prevention. If you are unsure you can contact Merck and they will tell you just what they state.

If you feel they are only saying so to cover themselves that is one thing but no studies, not the CDC, etc have come out with a different result.





With WILD or the CP vaccine --- all that break out are contagious 2 days prior to the rash. You may want to speak to your dr about this so that they can tell you. The vaccine is not a "different" type of chickenpox that is acting differently than what it is to prevent.

http://www.kidshealth.org/parent/inf...icken_pox.html

Quote:
Some kids have a fever, abdominal pain, sore throat, headache, or a vague sick feeling a day or 2 before the rash appears.
regarding the vaccine for CP or shingles, your dr can also state what it does and does not do

 

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Old 07-12-2010, 11:31 AM
 
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The vaccine type pox is a different strain, attenuated, and causes distinctly different symptoms. It is clinically different and is identifiable as such (and when it isn't, it can be tested obviously). I still see no evidence that what you say on this is true. ALl the evidence I see, incvluding the CDC page on pox, says that, if you get a rash at the injection site or elsewhere, contact with that rash can spread chicken pox, usually to immunecompromised individuals.

Dr sears says this:

Quote:
f my child is vaccinated against chickenpox, can he pass the disease on to other people?
Possibly, but it is very rare. Studies show that after fourteen million doses of VV, only three cases have been reported in which the vaccinated person transmitted chickenpox to another person, and those occurred only if the immunized person developed a rash.

Here is my shingles study again:

http://www.annals.org/content/152/9/545.long#T1
Quote:
Results: After inoculation, 255 (1.4%) vaccine recipients and 254 (1.4%) placebo recipients reported serious adverse events. Local inoculation-site side effects were reported by 1604 (48%) vaccine recipients and 539 (16%) placebo recipients in the substudy. A total of 977 (56.6%) of the vaccine recipients reporting local side effects were aged 60 to 69 years, and 627 (39.2%) were older than 70 years. After inoculation, herpes zoster occurred in 7 vaccine recipients versus 24 placebo recipients. Long-term follow-up (mean, 3.39 years) showed that rates of hospitalization or death did not differ between vaccine and placebo recipients.

more studies on singles vaccine effectiveness- some repeat but give more info:

http://www.annals.org/content/145/5/386.extract

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...978c1776888797

http://74.125.155.132/scholar?q=cach...t=800000000000


OK got to pack. I look forward to reading when I get back.

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Old 07-12-2010, 08:47 PM
 
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"Chickenpox in the United Kingdom, where vaccination is not undertaken, has had a stable epidemiology for decades and is a routine childhood illness. Because of vaccination, chickenpox is now a rarity in the USA. In the UK vaccination is not done because introduction of a routine childhood vaccination might drive up the age at which those who are non-immune get the illness (chickenpox tends to be more severe the older you are), and the incidence of shingles may increase. The United Kingdom is waiting to see what happens in countries where vaccination is routine."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16679476
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Old 07-12-2010, 10:27 PM
 
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Im not sure whether or not to give my son the chicken pox vax either.
I had a bad case of the chicken pox when I was 6 yrs old. I ended up in the hospital.

My son is 18 months and I stopped vaxing because of a bad reaction he had with one of the vaccines. I am considering getting him the chicken pox vax before he starts school though. I am just so back and forth with the decision, I don't know what to do.
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Old 07-12-2010, 10:42 PM
 
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I also had a bad chicken pox case that landed me in the hospital. I have done some research and talk to a few experts and they all agreed that that severe chicken pox reactions of the kind I had would not be "passed down" to my kids, as they were not attributable to a genetically passed down condition of my own. does that make sense?

Knowing that helped me feel OK with waiting until school age to do the pox vaccine. On one hand, I know my own experience makes the idea of severe chicken pox real to me but it doesn't increase the chance that my kids will suffer the same. but I am still aware of it, kwim?

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Old 07-12-2010, 11:30 PM
 
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of course I know it is live.

I do not think vaccine shedding is comparable to exposing a child to the disease and then taking them out into public places. The chances of spreading the disease in the two situations are not even comparably close. Is the pregnant woman in their home or no? there would only be a remote chance if she has contact with the children and they get a rash from the vaccine.

IMO, the chance of vaccine shedding has been overstated by many. Not saying it can't happen, but it has been widely overstated (even more so when it comes to MMR and all the myths surrounding that)
Agreed. I'm not a big vax fan by any means (dtap is the only vax we are doing completely with ds...he had two hib and a prevnar but we stopped prevnar after a reaction). But i do not believe in shedding, at all really. I'm sure it is possible but i can only imagine it is even rarer than any other possibliy (i.e. getting a preventable disease and dying and/or getting a reaction from a vax). I work in a center where 50% of the kids are vax'd on schedule, the rest either do not vax at all or are selective like we are with ds. Every week the vax'ed kids are showing up with their 5 bandaides on their arm, playing with all the unvax'd kids. There has never been a case of ANY of the vaccine preventable stuff at our center from vax'd or unvax'd kids. NONE. I mean i know several families who WANT chicken pox and have been unsuccessful at finding them "wildly" or by catching them from a shedding vax'd kid.

me, dh and 2 boys = our family (oh and a cat...who is also a male...lol)
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Old 07-12-2010, 11:58 PM
 
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secondary transmission

www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/pdf/10.1086/522125

www.cdc.gov/EID/content/15/10/1702.htm

http://www.pediatrics.aappublication...full/106/2/e28


others do as well -

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/06/he...=2&ref=science

There is a recap of his polio on the Purdue site www.engineering.purdue.edu
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I personally would not want to put another person at risk.

 

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Old 07-13-2010, 01:33 AM
 
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Two of your links refer to the same, single case: hence the fact that there are only 3 documented cases of this- although I have read that there are 5, but that was only on one site. it seems even dr sears gives the 3 stat. Your PDF link again gives the three stat, but mentions two possible others (I suppose that is where the 5 stat comes from).

I believe not vaccinating leaves more possibility for infecting others. I have also demonstrated, with three studies, that shingles is equal or less (1 study) and less likely (2 studies) in those who are vaccinated for varicella.

Of course, that does not mean I do not stand for parental decision and family choice. (i say this because, again, I am going out of town and don't want anyone to think I am saying GO OUT AND GET THIS VACCINE! I just put out there the science I am seeing.)

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Old 07-13-2010, 04:07 AM
 
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An individual can't have shingles unless he had chicken pox. There will be an epidemic of shingles in the future because many are inoculated (vaccinated) and intentionally being infected (pox party) with VZV.
Right. THey need to be exposed through varicella - either through the shot or the wild virus. But if the vaccination isn't as 'complete' as natural immunity, it's suspected there is a backlash so to speak of shingles, as shingles is the reactivation of the varicella virus.

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Old 07-13-2010, 04:11 AM
 
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It takes 15-20 days post chicken pox vaccine to shed enough virus to even possibly infect others (+ presence of the rash).

Did they test your children to see if it was OKA?
Link to that fact? THey didn't test anything - when you have CP, they don't wnat you anywhere near the dr office.

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Old 07-13-2010, 04:12 AM
 
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Again, is takes more than 2 weeks for a child to build the kind of viral load necessary to even "theoretically" infect others. So its really not "freshly" vaccinated kids you should be watching out for. It's kids who got their vaccine 2.5-3 weeks ago.

But again, I don't think it is a very large risk at all.
I'm glad you don't think it's a risk, others obviously do. My youngest son had it first. He was only one place alone without the other kids for weeks before and after.

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Old 07-13-2010, 04:18 AM
 
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T ALl the evidence I see, incvluding the CDC page on pox, says that, if you get a rash at the injection site or elsewhere, contact with that rash can spread chicken pox, usually to immunecompromised individuals.
And a rash at the injection site or elsewhere can show up how quickly after the injection? I thought it was relatively soon after. So to say it takes 15-20 days for the viral load to be high enough is conflicting with what you posted here. I'm not sure I'm understanding correctly.

To be fair - I honestly don't care what others choose to do with their kids and vax's. To me, personally, this is one of the most useless vax's....but that's me. To each their own.

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Old 07-13-2010, 04:19 AM
 
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Final thought on the subject - I teach and at my school, every case of CP reported for the past 3 years has been in vax'd students. Antecdotal, but enough for me.

Michelle -mom to Katlyn 4/00 , Jake 3/02, and Seth 5/04
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Old 07-13-2010, 09:33 AM
 
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Originally Posted by shelbean91 View Post
And a rash at the injection site or elsewhere can show up how quickly after the injection? I thought it was relatively soon after. So to say it takes 15-20 days for the viral load to be high enough is conflicting with what you posted here. I'm not sure I'm understanding correctly.

To be fair - I honestly don't care what others choose to do with their kids and vax's. To me, personally, this is one of the most useless vax's....but that's me. To each their own.
Many of the links posted in this thread confirm this fact. rashes 2 weeks post vaccination have been tested positive for wild pox. rashes 15-40 days post shot are OKA. Rashes after are breakthrough disease.

Quote:
With respect to vesicular rashes within 42 days after vaccination,
PCR analysis is more likely to identify wild-type VZV
in those rashes occurring within the first 2 weeks after vaccination,
whereas rashes occurring 15–42 days after vaccination
are more likely to be identified as Oka VZV. This trend is similar
to what has been previously reported [1].
that is from the PDF in serenbat's last post. You can read it again on the CDC site, the AAP site, and in Dr Sear's book amongst other sources.

Also, in the 3-5 (depending on source) of the healthy vaccine transmission cases, only the person who got the vaccine got pox in the first 2 weeks, all transmission to others occurred day 15+.

You are assuming the rash appears quickly, but study has shown again and again that wild VZV appears in the first 2 weeks, Oka later (mean day 21). And those few Oka rashes appearing earlier than 2 weeks have not spread to others.

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Old 07-13-2010, 10:09 AM
 
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shelbean91- I would also point out that the average incubation period for chicken pox is 14-16 days with a range of 7-21, so knowing that, the facts on vaccine transmission should make more sense, being a much weaker virus.

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Old 07-13-2010, 11:51 AM
 
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So what about a rash within a couple of days of the vax? My daughter got about a dozen and half small blisters within a few days of her CP vax at 12 months. The doctor wasn't sure if by some bizarre coincidence she might have been exposed to CP shortly before the vax or if it was a reaction. He had feeling it was wild CP because of the amount of blisters but couldn't say for sure. I had a feeling that it was a reaction given the timing. Thoughts? Is there a way to tell now years later?
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Old 07-13-2010, 12:08 PM
 
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the rash was probably wild. It may sound coincidental, but in those 2 weeks after vaccination the rashes in all these studies tested wild except like 5 which were in the 8 day range but did not transmit-- and that's after tens of thousands of doses.

Also note that there were many rashes in the first days after vaccination that were NOT varicella at all. that could have been the case for you as well.

Considering that most rashes that close to vaccination weren't varicella at all...perhaps that is even more likely that the wild VZV.

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Old 07-13-2010, 01:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by carriebft View Post
Also note that there were many rashes in the first days after vaccination that were NOT varicella at all. that could have been the case for you as well.

Considering that most rashes that close to vaccination weren't varicella at all...perhaps that is even more likely that the wild VZV.
It definitely looked exactly like CP blisters to me and the doctor. He didn't seem to have any doubt about that. He even quarantined the exam room. In my defense, they asked me to come in when I called about the rash.
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Old 07-13-2010, 03:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shelbean91 View Post
Right. THey need to be exposed through varicella - either through the shot or the wild virus. But if the vaccination isn't as 'complete' as natural immunity, it's suspected there is a backlash so to speak of shingles, as shingles is the reactivation of the varicella virus.
Are you referring to the innate immunity or exposure via natural infection? Which is it?
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Old 07-14-2010, 12:18 AM
 
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I have removed several posts from this thread which were either not consistent with our guidelines or were responses to such posts. Feel free to PM any questions.
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Old 07-14-2010, 03:25 PM
 
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Here is a link that you might want to read over and talk with your dr for more information regarding the long-term need for boostering.

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Biologi.../UCM142824.pdf
from 2005

Boosting of VZV
vaccine responses could potentially reduce concerns about duration of vaccine efficacy.
These concerns are important because, if immunity were insufficient in adults, they might
be susceptible to more severe disease, and if immunity were insufficient in women who
subsequently become pregnant, their children might be more susceptible to congenital
varicella syndrome.


more updated -

www.cvi.asm.org/cgi/reprint/3/3/365.pdf

regarding if you did have shingles, did you discuss with your dr doing a titers to see what your levels are? does your dr feel you are at risk for a repeat of shingles?

 

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Old 07-20-2010, 05:59 PM
 
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The CP vax does not last from childhood to adulthood! My ds doc said it was only about 5-10 years.

My ds was vax at age 5 and he got the CP at age 14. It wasn't until he got CP that I was told he needed to have the booster. He did have a mild case, but missing 2 weeks of high school hurts. I wish he could have gotten them as a child instead.
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