Want to give Dtap to 9 month old - Mothering Forums
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Selective & Delayed Vaccination > Want to give Dtap to 9 month old
temaki's Avatar temaki 05:56 PM 05-03-2012

My almost 9 mo DD has not had any vaxes, due to my husband's objections. He thinks vaccines cause autism and the risk of side effects are not worth it. We have had many arguments over immunizations since our daughter was born. I agreed to wait out of respect for him, but I am definitely not comfortable not giving her any immunizations. She is our only child, partially breastfed and not in daycare, but I work with sick children. I had the Tdap a couple years ago.

 

I would really like her to at least start the Dtap at her 9 month well child check up coming up. We live in WA state where there is a pertussis epidemic that is expected to peak this summer. I guess I am torn as to what to do. I do not want to have to go behind my husband's back.



Rrrrrachel's Avatar Rrrrrachel 06:03 PM 05-03-2012
Has he watched any videos of children with pertussis?
Slmommy's Avatar Slmommy 09:34 PM 05-03-2012
Taximom5's Avatar Taximom5 09:45 PM 05-03-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

Has he watched any videos of children with pertussis?

Have you watched any videos of children with severe reactions to DTaP?


Slmommy's Avatar Slmommy 09:53 PM 05-03-2012

OP is your DH totally anti-vax or do you think he would be open to del/sel?

Have you guys read many of the same materials about vax?


Rrrrrachel's Avatar Rrrrrachel 04:28 AM 05-04-2012
I am just trying to help the original poster, not get into a back and forth with you, taxi.
Rrrrrachel's Avatar Rrrrrachel 04:40 AM 05-04-2012
Pertussis is a bacterial infection. It can cause children to cough so hard and so much they literally cant catch their breath and they suffocate. They literally cough themselves to death. Another concern is they cough so hard they throw up and then when they try to inhale they aspirate it. Or their little body gets so exhausted from coughing they can't fight the infection anymore.

Do these things always happen? Of course not, but even without serious complications it's pitiful enough. Have you ever had a really bad cough that just goes on and on? It's terrible.

If you think it would make an impression there are also some first hand stories of people who've suffered from whooping cough at vaccinetimes.com
Taximom5's Avatar Taximom5 05:23 AM 05-04-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

I am just trying to help the original poster, not get into a back and forth with you, taxi.

If you're trying to help the original poster, then give ALL the facts, not just those that support the vaccine industry.

Yes, pertussis can be terribly dangerous, especially in young infants and those with underlying conditions. That's why a vaccine was developed for it.

But the original live-virus vaccine caused terribly dangerous reactions in a small subset. That's why they changed the vaccine to an acellular version..

Unfortunately, the acellular version has proven to be less effective, and there are reports that it's still causing terribly dangerous reactions.

Since many in the medical community believe and/or repeat the vaccine manufacturer's mantra that the vaccine is safe and effective, while ignoring the facts that show otherwise, the terribly dangerous reactions have gone unstudied, so subgroups who will have such reactions.
Have not been definitively identified.

We can, however, make educated guesses as to which groups may be at-risk, such as those with personal and/or family history of autoimmune disorders, vitamin deficiencies, seizure disorders, autism, food allergies, etc. also at risk are premature and low-birthweight babies,and those with underlying health issues, including those who may be already battling a mild virus, with fever, or diarrhea.

Unfortunately, many doctors ignore the contraindications provided by the manufacturers, and the parents never even see these contraindications.
Youngfrankenstein's Avatar Youngfrankenstein 05:35 AM 05-04-2012

I started my last child's selective immunization at 6 months.  I gave her the dTap and would do it again.  You do need to figure out a way to talk to your husband.  Does he respect the Dr?  Would he read the CDC's information?  What is a credible source of information to him?  I like this website: http://skepticfamily.com/vaccines/


Rrrrrachel's Avatar Rrrrrachel 05:45 AM 05-04-2012
Vaccines re studied for reactions, through vaers (which we all know is not as good of a resource as we would like it to be) and the vaccine safety data link. The vaccine safety data link includes millions of children's medical records, vaccinated and unvaccinated, and is a great resource for monitoring for any kind of reaction.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Activities/VSD.html

You may also want to have him read about the loooong process vaccines go through on their way to market.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/resdev/test-approve.htm

I assume that you've already researched the matter and weighed the risks and made up your mind that this is what's best for your family, especially given the epidemic in your area.
Rrrrrachel's Avatar Rrrrrachel 05:49 AM 05-04-2012
I hadn't seem the skeptic parent site, thank you for sharing it!
Rrrrrachel's Avatar Rrrrrachel 08:43 AM 05-04-2012
I just came across these stats that might be worth sharing.

"Pertussis is most severe for babies; more than half of infants younger than 1 year of age who get the disease must be hospitalized. About 1 in 5 infants with pertussis get pneumonia (lung infection), and about 1 in 100 will have convulsions. In rare cases (1 in 100), pertussis can be deadly, especially in infants."
http://www.cdc.gov/features/pertussis/


Jugs's Avatar Jugs 08:50 AM 05-04-2012

Has he researched what a clinical case of pertussis is like? Even a mild bout with whopping cough can last for several weeks; that's a long time to be sick, especially for a baby.


Blessed_Mom's Avatar Blessed_Mom 08:55 AM 05-04-2012

We are sel/del vaxers and treat it as a necessary evil most all the time.

 

OP - given that you live in WA and the pertussis numbers have reached epidemic/epic proportions and is expected to peak in summer - I would suggest you look into giving her Daptacel. You should be able to get 2 shots in by peak summer - right?

 

In case you don't get to - make sure you wash hands (or take bath and discard the old pile of clothes in the washer) before you come in contact with her (since you deal with sick children). When you go to common kiddie places - wash hands religiously.


Blessed_Mom's Avatar Blessed_Mom 09:26 AM 05-04-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Youngfrankenstein View Post

I started my last child's selective immunization at 6 months.  I gave her the dTap and would do it again.  You do need to figure out a way to talk to your husband.  Does he respect the Dr?  Would he read the CDC's information?  What is a credible source of information to him?  I like this website: http://skepticfamily.com/vaccines/

Youngfrankenstein - I will preface my statement with my own stand about vaccines (before you completely label me an anti-vaxer). We are sel/del. In theory we like the idea of vaccines (who wouldn't) and wish that there really were all these vaccines for protecting my DD and never having to put her through the misery of all these illnesses. I am a coward when it comes to my DD and if I had the choice between giving her a safe/effective vax for a disease or have her battle through one bout to acquire lifetime immunity - I would choose a vax (Even if I had to vax her a couple of times in her lifetime..again provided the vax were safe and effective (even if less effective than naturally acquired immunity based on illness)). 

 

Anyway - so I just now went to the above skepticfamily link and one of the first sentences that caught my eye incensed me:

 

 

You and I may not completely trust the profit motivations of pharmaceutical corporations, but that doesn’t mean they are a cabal of evil overlords plotting to purposefully give children autism; the idea is ridiculous and without merit.

 

 

This idea the author presents with a very superior, condescending and swaying pen and is frankly very insulting to the non-vaxers. None of the non-vaxers (except a few delusional ones) think that the Pharma companies are a cabal of evil overloads "plotting" to "purposefully" give children Autism. The author is being ridiculous and pompous.

 

What the non-vaxers are saying is "The Pharma companies are putting out vaccines which have not been tested thoroughly and are ignoring the lesser percentage of people who are getting afflicted with vax-related injuries , trying to sweep them under the rug - keeping profit in mind"

 

No one thinks they want to purposefully give children Autism! BUT yes - they don't seem to care enough to explore if certain vaccinated children are ending up with Autism/autistic_behaviors due to certain harmful metals they mix in with the vaccines and are using clout to suppress the naysayers because it cuts into their pockets.


nukuspot's Avatar nukuspot 01:16 PM 05-04-2012

I am in the same boat as you kind of.  I live in WA too.  We have not vaxxed so far.  My DH actually is very easy, he leaves the choice up to me.  SO far we have not vaxxed our 3 y/o at all.  If she was my only child (and yes, even if she was 9 months old like yours) I would leave her unvaxxed.  But we are due to have #2 in September right when the pertussis cases are going to peak (due to natural seasonal peaks in the disease).  So for that reason we are going to vax DD with DTaP next week, giving 3 doses 2 months apart, last dose in Mid September.  Ideal?  Not at all.  But I am mainly worried about the new baby as it is most terrible as far as outcomes for infants under 6 months.  Hope this helps.


Rrrrrachel's Avatar Rrrrrachel 01:27 PM 05-04-2012
But vaccines HAVE been tested for safety and people who are injured AREN'T being ignored, there's vaers, and the vaccine compensation program, and datalink. Those are all ways to either allow people who think they've been vaccine injured to be heard and compensated or keep a close eye on possible adverse events that happen in larger than expected numbers.

Pharma companies don't make their money from vaccines. A vaccine is something your kid gets a few times in their life. They make their money from things that people take everyday like heartburn medication. Vaccines are such a small part of their profit margin it doesn't make sense that they are putting themselves at risk of a huge lawsuit by sweeping things under the rug. Keep in mind that means the CDC and FDA are also involved, since they do a ton of research to license and approve the vaccine.
Blessed_Mom's Avatar Blessed_Mom 02:47 PM 05-04-2012

Rrrachel,

 

I am not denying that vaccines are tested for safety. Where you and I differ is  on the extent of the tests and research. Giving them the benefit of doubt - let's say in all their 100s of clinical trials they never encountered any cases of Autism or immediate neurological harm. Then they release the vaccine and a few in 10000 cases are showing Autistic behaviors. Instead of researching these further - they seem to be in stout denial mode.

 

And other effects like Diabetes, Lupus, MS, Alzheimers cannot be immediately seen in any clinical trials because they happen over time. But if enough evidence suggests that thimerosal and Al can cause these then instead of trying to find alternatives - they are not even acknowledging that this could happen.

 

IF they had tested vaccines thoroughly for safety - then explain why withdraw some vaccines from the market? Also explain - why withdraw thimerosal from vaccines? They went blue in the face denying any harmful effects from Thimerosal right? Then they should have stuck to their guns and kept it right in.Because their research was rock-solid right?

Same with Squalene - they denied it firmly and maintained there were no ill-effects. And then they have banned it from vaccines now...IF their research and tests were so fault-proof why these concessions?

 

Now they are going blue in the face denying any harmful effects from Al.... 

 

And I just beg to differ with the statement that they make no money from vaccines!


Rrrrrachel's Avatar Rrrrrachel 02:59 PM 05-04-2012
I didn't say they make no money, I said tit was a very small percentage of their profit margin.

The removed thimerosol because it wasn't worth fighting about. Because its more important to get as many people to vaccinate as possible than to be "right.". There is still no evidence t causes harm.

The vaccine autism link has been studied extensively. No causal link has ever been found.
Rrrrrachel's Avatar Rrrrrachel 03:00 PM 05-04-2012
And there are recalls because you're right, sometimes things DO come up that didn't come up in clinical trials, even though can go on for a decade and involve thousands. But look how it's handled when things do come up, they don't stage some massive cover up, they issue a recall!
Rrrrrachel's Avatar Rrrrrachel 03:01 PM 05-04-2012
The science does not support long term harm of the kind youre describing from aluminum or thimerosol in the amounts that are in vaccines.
Slmommy's Avatar Slmommy 03:27 PM 05-04-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

But vaccines HAVE been tested for safety and people who are injured AREN'T being ignored, there's vaers, and the vaccine compensation program, and datalink. Those are all ways to either allow people who think they've been vaccine injured to be heard and compensated or keep a close eye on possible adverse events that happen in larger than expected numbers.
 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

The removed thimerosol because it wasn't worth fighting about. Because its more important to get as many people to vaccinate as possible than to be "right.". There is still no evidence t causes harm.
 

 

Funny, no one likes to talk about some of the original outcomes of study of thimerosal and vax by Datalink... *it's consiracy* involving 50+ pedis, drs, acip members, pharma reps, specialists in various feilds, and it wasn't removed from vax just to shut up a buncha crazy parents... there were congressional measures to remove mercury from otc drugs in the late 90s and then the EPA expressed concerns over ethyl mercury exposure in vax as compared to methyl guidelines, and yeah, they used methyl guidelines because very little is known about ethyl. 

 

Full transcript from Simpsonwood (based on datalink study) http://www.safeminds.org/government-affairs/foia/Simpsonwood_Transcript.pdf

The Key points from Simpsonwood http://www.aapsonline.org/vaccines/cdcfdaexperts.htm

and copy of draft of original findings (with graphs of thimerosal exposure and neuro issues)

http://www.autismhelpforyou.com/EXPERT%20PAPER%20-%20Thimerosal%20VSD%20study001%20-%20Internet%20File.pdf


Blessed_Mom's Avatar Blessed_Mom 03:30 PM 05-04-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

And there are recalls because you're right, sometimes things DO come up that didn't come up in clinical trials, even though can go on for a decade and involve thousands. But look how it's handled when things do come up, they don't stage some massive cover up, they issue a recall!

 

 

The way I have seen 'recall' scenes played out is - first there is a massive effort made to either ignore or outright dispute growing rumblings of discord. I don't remember - anytime - them saying "Hmm.. even though right now a very minor percentage of people are showing damage maybe we should research this further".

 

When the numbers become overwhelming and impossible to ignore and their collars are tightened - they recall the vaccine. At that time they have no choice!

 

This is the behavior that has shaken the confidence of some of us folks. Because damage and deaths are just a statistic to them but take on a very monumental meaning to the ones actually afflicted.

 

Also  - take the 'flu vaccine. Miscarriages in pregnant women who have been administered the 'flu shot have jumped to alarming percentages and this is a new rumbling that is threatening to become real uncomfortable for all involved but in these stages do you see CDC issuing "Maybe there is some truth to these allegations" kind of statements?

Nope. Just denials and going right on administering the vaccine to pregnant women.

 

It WILL soon reach the stage when it can no longer be ignored and then there will be abrupt recalls and/or cease orders to inject pregnant women.Just a question of when...

...but how are they behaving now? Any credence to the amounting numbers? Any acknowledgement? 

 

When Squalene was present in the vaccines given to war vets and evidence was mounting that it was harmful were there equally reassuring messages from CDC that yes - numbers were increasingly getting uncomfortable and maybe they could acknowledge some truth to it?

 

Nope.. denial denial and more denial until the noose was tightened and suddenly.. yup stop using Squalene!

 

This wasn't llike the Thimerosal where you state "they took it out because they wanted to do the right thing rather than be right"

 

Does NOT apply!


Rrrrrachel's Avatar Rrrrrachel 03:31 PM 05-04-2012
Study after study after study has shown there's no link between thimerosol and autism.
Rrrrrachel's Avatar Rrrrrachel 03:32 PM 05-04-2012
None of this is helpful to the original poster so I'm walking away.
Rrrrrachel's Avatar Rrrrrachel 03:40 PM 05-04-2012
I can't help myself, you realize those graphs in the simpsonwood thing you posted show no significant difference in the relative risk as exposure increases? Basically they show no correlation?
Slmommy's Avatar Slmommy 03:49 PM 05-04-2012
Quote:
Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 40: “…we have found statistically significant relationships between the exposure and outcomes for these different exposures and outcomes. First, for two months of age, an unspecified developmental delay, which has its own specific ICD9 code. Exposure at three months of age, Tics. Exposure at six months of age, an attention deficit disorder. Exposure at one, three and six months of age, language and speech delays which are two separate ICD9 codes. Exposures at one, three and six months of age, the entire category of neurodevelopmental delays, which includes all of these plus a number of other disorders.”
Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 44: “Now for speech delays, which is the largest single disorder in this category of neurologic delays. The results are a suggestion of a trend with a small dip. The overall test for trend is highly statistically significantabove one.”
Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 76: “What I have done here, I am putting into the model instead of mercury, a number of antigens that the children received, and what do we get? Not surprisingly, we get very similar estimates as what we got for Thimerosal because every vaccine put in the equation has Thimerosal. So for speech and the other ones maybe it’s not so significant, but for the overall group it is also significant….Here we have the same thing, but instead of number of antigens, number of shots. Just the number of vaccinations given to a child, which is also for nearly all of them significantly related.”

Dr. Guess, pg. 77: "So this essentially is a 7% risk per antigen, an antigen is like in DPT you've got three antigens."

Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 77: "Correct."

Dr. Egan, pg. 77: "Could you do this calculation for aluminum?"

Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 77: "I did it for aluminum…Actually the results were almost identical to ethylmercury because the amount of aluminum goes along almost exactly with the mercury one."

 

Also, here is the CDC price list for vaccines licensed in US

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/programs/vfc/cdc-vac-price-list.htm

 

Notice the price diff between cdc price and private sector. And they are still making a profit off of cdc prices. Millions and millions and millions of doses. It's not nothing. 


Rrrrrachel's Avatar Rrrrrachel 03:52 PM 05-04-2012
Again, never said its nothing, but it's a very small percentage of their overall sales.
temaki's Avatar temaki 05:12 PM 05-04-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by nukuspot View Post

I am in the same boat as you kind of.  I live in WA too.  We have not vaxxed so far.  My DH actually is very easy, he leaves the choice up to me.  SO far we have not vaxxed our 3 y/o at all.  If she was my only child (and yes, even if she was 9 months old like yours) I would leave her unvaxxed.  But we are due to have #2 in September right when the pertussis cases are going to peak (due to natural seasonal peaks in the disease).  So for that reason we are going to vax DD with DTaP next week, giving 3 doses 2 months apart, last dose in Mid September.  Ideal?  Not at all.  But I am mainly worried about the new baby as it is most terrible as far as outcomes for infants under 6 months.  Hope this helps.

 

Thank you everyone for the responses. DH and I have looked at countless websites, including the CDC and FDA websites. I have read Dr. Sears' book and Dr. Stephanie Cave's book. I am also a nurse and have taken care of infants with pertussis so I have seen it first hand.

 

DH says he will not consider starting vaxes for DD until she is at least 2 years old and that I should accept this as a compromise. I have asked him for some scientific evidence to back up this reason. I am not saying she should get caught up on all the vaxes according to the CDC schedule. I just think Dtap is one of the most important ones that should not be delayed for much longer, given our individual situation.

 

Nukuspot, I was telling DH that when the time comes for our second child, I would definitely want the older one to have Dtap by then, especially if she's in preschool. So I think you are doing the right thing.


Blessed_Mom's Avatar Blessed_Mom 05:31 PM 05-04-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

Again, never said its nothing, but it's a very small percentage of their overall sales.

 

 

US population = 311 million.

 

If each of the individuals receive atleast 6 vaccines in their lifetimes (DTaP, Polio, Hep B, Hep A, HiB, MMR) - bare minimum - not counting other vaxes and boosters and countless 'flu shots etc (this more than makes up for those individuals who don't vax)and each vaccine has 3 parts to it (minimum - right?) - then each individual receives 18 vaxes in their lifetime.

 

So total vaxes = 5.598 Billion. (311 million *18)

 

So - if they make even $1 for each vaccine in profit they make approx 5.6 billion dollars. Is that something to sneeze at???

 

AND that was the most conservative amounts I could use.

 

Firstly - they sell these vaxes to more than the USA population. So the first figure is way more than 311 million.

Secondly - each individual receives more than 6 vaccines in their lifetime... and some vaccines have more than 3 parts...

 

AND they surely make more than $1 as profit on each vaccine???

 

 

Whether the 5.6 billion dollars is a small percentage of their overall sales or not - it is a lot of money.....

 

Now if they make $5 as profit on each vax ? That makes their total profit = $25 billion dollars.

 

AND you can see I am not even going anywhere close to the disparate price differences slmommy posted.

 

Because if I calculate that in then the profits go into 100s of billions of dollars!


Tags: Selective Vaccination
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