Mothering Mamas Who Thoughtfully Vaccinate - Page 6 - Mothering Forums

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Old 10-12-2012, 06:51 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Found another interesting article on the theme of making informed decisions to vaccinate and being confident in those decisions in the face of lots of scare stories about vaccine reactions online. This one from a mother who is also a researcher in the field of epidemiology: 

 

http://momswhovax.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/moms-who-vax-why-am-i-so-certain.html


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Old 10-12-2012, 07:25 AM
 
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Found another interesting article on the theme of making informed decisions to vaccinate and being confident in those decisions in the face of lots of scare stories about vaccine reactions online. This one from a mother who is also a researcher in the field of epidemiology: 

 

http://momswhovax.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/moms-who-vax-why-am-i-so-certain.html

 

I'm always interested to read what others are thinking & feeling which is why I clicked on the blog.  The second line in the page that opens is, "If I knew any personally, and was on good enough terms to have a frank discussion, I would be so tempted to put them under a microscope and try to understand where the wires had gotten crossed."  Inflammatory much?

 

Sus


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Old 10-12-2012, 08:32 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm always interested to read what others are thinking & feeling which is why I clicked on the blog.  The second line in the page that opens is, "If I knew any personally, and was on good enough terms to have a frank discussion, I would be so tempted to put them under a microscope and try to understand where the wires had gotten crossed."  Inflammatory much?

 

Sus

 

Yeah perhaps I should have included a health warning to skip the first paragraph. I read a lot of frustration and lack of understanding in that paragraph. I think we find that on both sides of the debate. I personally try hard (and clearly fail given the responses some of my posts get which continue to astonish me) to debate respectfully and with the best science/evidence I can find.  

 

 A bad start doesn't mean the rest of what she wrote should be immediately dismissed. :)  


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Old 10-12-2012, 04:40 PM
 
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Yeah perhaps I should have included a health warning to skip the first paragraph. I read a lot of frustration and lack of understanding in that paragraph. I think we find that on both sides of the debate. I personally try hard (and clearly fail given the responses some of my posts get which continue to astonish me) to debate respectfully and with the best science/evidence I can find.  

 

 A bad start doesn't mean the rest of what she wrote should be immediately dismissed. :)  

I can appreciate someone who is frustrated.  How can someone who is frustrated do anything but continue to be when they expressly say they don't want to hear from those they claim to be frustrated with?  

 

I am interested in having conversations w/ those who are so vehement regarding any issue.  How is it a conversation when only one side can have their say?  

 

And, how can she/they be sure that every vaccine available is right for every child/person?  How can anyone be sure that every person should get the same treatment?

 

I won't be reading that blog.  They do not accept comments & expressly say they would like to hear from mothers who vax.  Not something I'm willing to spend my time on.

 

Best wishes,

Sus


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Old 10-14-2012, 03:19 PM
 
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We want to be careful to avoid using too much tone argument here. I would listen to this woman's opinion if only she had a better tone is a pretty dangerous ground to walk on. For more on tone arguments, this is a good primer: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Tone_argument.

 

Sometimes people have something to say even if they say it in a way that you find unpleasant. Let's all keep that in mind.

 

On the other hand, Mama24-7, you absolutely don't have to hang around on a blog you don't like. I think the link was posted here for mamas who might be interested.

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Old 10-14-2012, 03:41 PM
 
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We want to be careful to avoid using too much tone argument here. I would listen to this woman's opinion if only she had a better tone is a pretty dangerous ground to walk on. For more on tone arguments, this is a good primer: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Tone_argument.

 

Sometimes people have something to say even if they say it in a way that you find unpleasant. Let's all keep that in mind.

 

On the other hand, Mama24-7, you absolutely don't have to hang around on a blog you don't like. I think the link was posted here for mamas who might be interested.

 



Exactly.

 

Thanks PSMum for sharing this, and the other recent links.


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Old 10-14-2012, 05:47 PM
 
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We want to be careful to avoid using too much tone argument here. I would listen to this woman's opinion if only she had a better tone is a pretty dangerous ground to walk on. For more on tone arguments, this is a good primer: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Tone_argument.

 

 

I don't think it was just tone.  The blog site in question does not accept comments.  It seems more echo-chamberish than the non-vax forum (not that I particularly think the non-vax forum is always an echo chamber - but it is certainly a criticism that is launched at it regularly)


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Old 10-14-2012, 06:21 PM
 
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Joining in here. I do vax on schedule. Of course I only kinda fit the Mothering prototype. I take what works for us and leave the rest. One part I leave is the anti-vax argument. I am a medical researcher so the science of vaccines isn't anything I have a real problem with.

 

We only get flu shots some years. We balance what vaccines are in the shot that year, what we've had in the past, what our exposures are, etc. and then make a decision. We'll look at the 12 year old vaccines once they get a touch closer.

 

In related news I just recently got pertussis. I'm 35 years old. On the one hand the fact that my childhood vaccine obviously didn't work does make me question. Of course I haven't had a booster since childhood. I got my last tetanus shot in Feb. of 2005. It turns out they started changing to the Tdap which contains the pertussis booster in October of 2005, so I didn't get it. From my reading it doesn't appear that even had I actually had pertussis as a child that I would necessarily be immune at 35. It looks like immunity lasts about 20 years. My husband had the Tdap this spring and my kids were both current on their vaccinations so neither of them got ill.

 

Mine are all past the childhood vaccines and some of my questions will never again be relevant to them, but I thought I'd ask anyway.

 

Did you find that getting two shots at once by two different nurses seemed to help? That is how my doctors office always did it. They believed that the kid only got to experience one moment of pain, just in both arms/legs at once. Then just this past year one of my friends had to get two shots and they did the two at once thing. He found it rather startling and said he would have preferred to get them one at time. Another friends doctors office always did them one at a time and thought it was bit strange that my doctors office always did two at a time. 

 

I also found it interesting how many people nursed through shots. My oldest is nine and the study that came out showing that nursing during shots helped with pain perception came out. My nurses knew I'd be game and asked to try it. It took us so much maneuvering to get both the nurses where they could do shots and me nursing comfortably (remember my doctors office liked to do two at once). The minute they placed those shots he unlatched, looked at me so betrayed, and screamed louder than he had for any other shots before or since. They looked at us and decided that that hadn't work as well as they hoped. I haven't tried since. It just seemed like the betrayal of being happy and comfortable then getting shots was harder on him then the whole hold him down quickly, give the shots, then nurse routine. So did you nurse during the actual shots, or just after?


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Old 10-14-2012, 06:48 PM
 
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i have nursed thru al my twins shots, and our rule is two a visit and yeah i let them do two at a time.  i did them one after another once and the second one clearly caused a way bigger response, so we went back to two at a time and non after that in the visit.

 

when nursing i sit them on my lap straddling one or two legs depending on their age and size and latch them on nice and good, the usually unlatched when they got the shot, but went back fairly quick and because they were already nursing my milk was flowing well and then instantly got a big mouthful of yummy.  i do think it helps a lot , because once ,my girl hadn't really gotten a good let down yet and the nurse didnt understand what i was asking her to wait for. so she broke latch and was fussy and not focused enough to latch on long enough to get my letdown and instead just got worked up by frustration on top of it all.   that was the only time my kids cried for more than a few seconds. all other times the boob fixed everything.


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Old 10-14-2012, 07:13 PM
 
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I was very delayed with my older daughter until the first time I wanted to take her out of the country. Then my tune changed. We have not vaccinated for everything yet because we have so far traveled to large first world nations with fully developed medical centers. Like, we don't get flu shots and they haven't had chicken pox yet. But my second daughter had MMR early because we were going to the UK during a time when they had a lot of cases. Mostly this is because we do one shot a visit. We will all be vaccinating with every vaccination known to mankind over the next few years because we plan to spend a year WWOOFing when our kids are a bit older. I suppose I am playing fast and loose with herd immunity. I feel a little guilty but not guilty enough to do more than one shot a visit.

 

If I do one shot a visit my daughter can handle it stoically and cheerfully and we have a good rest of the day. The one time we did a second shot she looked at me like I shot her puppy and we spent the day on the couch with her sobbing and feverish. We do one shot a visit! I feel really happy that we had a pediatrician who said, "The schedule was designed to catch the most vulnerable populations and frankly you don't fall into those groups." So I am not quite a "proud" vaccinator I guess. But I thoughtfully vaccinate. :)


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Old 10-14-2012, 08:10 PM
 
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We want to be careful to avoid using too much tone argument here. I would listen to this woman's opinion if only she had a better tone is a pretty dangerous ground to walk on. For more on tone arguments, this is a good primer: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Tone_argument.

 

Not sure what your link is to, but for me, my reason for reading no further on that blog is not just tone, but the tone was the first red flag for me.  The second was taking no comments.  The third was their (I believe it's two moms, but maybe more? - doesn't matter) statement that they want to hear from moms who vax.  So, they think anyone who doesn't vax "has their wires crossed," they are not willing to field comments & they want to hear not from everyone but from moms who are like them only.  Nope, not worth my time.  That's not a discussion; it's a soapbox.

 

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Originally Posted by MichelleZB View Post
On the other hand, Mama24-7, you absolutely don't have to hang around on a blog you don't like. I think the link was posted here for mamas who might be interested.

 

Thanks & I do know that! winky.gif  I am interested, which is why I'm subbed to this thread & I clicked the link.  As I said when I replied after that link was posted: "I'm always interested to read what others are thinking & feeling which is why I clicked on the blog. "  

 

I'm guessing no one is interested in answering my questions.  Maybe the author of that blog post would come here to answer.  I'm thinking no; clearly she's not interested in a discussion. :-/

 

Best wishes,

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Old 10-14-2012, 11:26 PM
 
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I thought two shots at once seemed to work pretty well and will probably do the same at the next visit (I'm thinking of going back in a month to get the Hib booster; don't want to wait 3 months at this time of year). I never nursed through shots, but have nursed after. I hold her on my lap and keep her from moving--they always want to put her on the table, but it seems easier to me to keep her still against my body, and surely it's cozier for her. 

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Old 10-15-2012, 02:45 AM - Thread Starter
 
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We want to be careful to avoid using too much tone argument here. I would listen to this woman's opinion if only she had a better tone is a pretty dangerous ground to walk on. For more on tone arguments, this is a good primer: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Tone_argument.

 

Thanks for posting that link. That's really interesting. 

 

Sus (Mama 24/7) - why don't you start another thread with those questions. I think we'd rather just keep this thread debate free as I believe we have agreed with the moderators. :) I actually thought they were rhetorical questions (ie. you didn't really want an answer) - back to tone, sometimes it's really hard to tell just from text! 

 

I haven't nursed through shots, but I almost always nursed immediately following the shot, either in the room where they get them, or later in the waiting room (you're supposed to wait for a while anyway in case of immediate reactions). I am sure there's been research that sweet tastes (including breast milk) help reduce pain in infants - certainly it's comforting and my babies seemed to be content and forget about the shot almost instantly. 


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Old 10-15-2012, 07:18 AM
 
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Our doctors office won't do two at once (you work with one tech at a time) and they require that the children be laying on a table by themselves. My kids just doesn't have the fortitude for two in a row like that.


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Old 10-15-2012, 08:16 AM
 
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there was actually a good study that looked at body position, feeding sweets, nursing, parent attitude, comforting, lap sitting and how all of those things did or didn't factor in the to the pain upset that the child seem to be having.

 

some big conclusions that came from the study:

 

  • sitting up was much better than laying down, i think they mentioned something specifically about having your legs bent at the hip, so as to be a in more protective feeling position with regards to your stomach and torso, that makes a lot of sense to me, i feel very exposed when i lay totally flat and that feeling would probably make we experience pain differently

 

  • sweet things helped, breast milk even in a bottle (as different from formula) helped even more, while breastfeeding directly helped the most because of the other cuddle factors they assumed.  All these type of things help considerably more the younger the child was, i think the study went from newborn to well into toddler years

 

  • sitting on someone lap was considerably better than siting alone on a table

 

  • and an apologetic parent that coddled the kids was not as good as a parent that simply did the normal level of snuggling that kids was used to and made little or no fuss about the shot.

 

 

 

i find most of this to be very true and common sense. i was a piercer for over a decade and i learned many tricks to calm those on my table, one of the first things was to ditch the table in favor of a reclining chair that lay nearly but not totally flat. the moment someone was totally flat, their squirminess was higher and pain threshold was lower.

 

and when i changed my attitude and mannerism from "helping them cope with the pain" to "giving them something to do" and "assuming they would be fine with the pain" i saw huge change in the average person and their reaction.

 

 

my doctors office had a policy of nothing in the mouth during the shot, so that they didn't choke, i talked to my ped the very first appointment and she wrote right on my shot form that i was allowed to nurse, i only once had a lady that said she "couldn't work like that" and i said "fine, go switch with someone that can".  and with regards to them wanting them to sit or lay on a table, it was usually about being able to control their limbs, i found if i was sympathetic to their goal and said that this was the way i could best keep them calm and not moving, they were more open to it, i never had an issue, i got good at nursing while also holding down their arms for the tech, their arms were usually the big concern, since they have hold of the leg already.

 

 

now at the last shots around 18m, my kids were very blasé about the whole thing and were more into looking around and seeing stuff and they decided not to nurse when i offered, and only kinda yelped for a sec and then just turned to the boob and happily nursed after. 

I feel super relieved that i have apparently made the whole experience one that does not get their hackles up, frankly i think getting their length measured is more annoying to them in the moment (agafinallyin that is i think about being laid and held totally flat!)


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Old 10-15-2012, 08:30 AM
 
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Well gosh. I wish this thread existed four years ago. gloomy.gif Do you happen to remember who did the study? If I could print it out and bring it in to my doctors office maybe they might consider changing their policy. It's too late for my kids. I did what I did and I'm comfortable with that. :)


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Old 10-15-2012, 08:48 AM
 
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Well gosh. I wish this thread existed four years ago. gloomy.gif Do you happen to remember who did the study? If I could print it out and bring it in to my doctors office maybe they might consider changing their policy. It's too late for my kids. I did what I did and I'm comfortable with that. :)

This is the one from 2003 when my son was little that led to our experiment in office with breastfeeding during shots - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC139493/

However, my search also found one from 2007 that looks like a literature review of several of these types of studies (perhaps the one adorkable mentioned. I just read the abstract not the whole thing) - http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/119/5/e1184.short


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Old 10-15-2012, 09:19 AM
 
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the study i read went into a bit more detail, though it looks like one of hte ones that are sumed up here, i will keep an eye out for it, i think i saved a link somewhere, but it was over 2 years ago, ugh


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Old 10-30-2012, 05:52 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Love that this thread brought up useful resources to help ease the stress and pain of vaccination. :) 


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Old 10-30-2012, 05:53 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I found another article which might be of interest here - a discussion about trust in the scientific process and the expertise of scientists to recommend the best choices for vaccination: 

 

http://scienceofmom.com/2012/01/11/on-parenting-science-and-trust-and-choosing-to-vaccinate/

 

An exerpt: 

 

 

 

Quote:
What would be naïve is for me to think that I could become an expert on vaccinations.  It would be naïve for me to think that I could understand the vaccine field better than the committees of scientists and doctors who have made this their life’s work. I know how much work it took me to become an expert on one or two corners of nutrition and fetal physiology. It took thousands of hours of reading textbooks and journal articles, sitting in lectures, attending conferences, and struggling at the lab bench before I started to feel even a little bit comfortable calling myself an expert in any field. So I think it is naïve for a parent to think that she can become an expert on vaccines by spending some time on the Internet reading questionable sources, almost all of which have some agenda. I accept that I can’t know everything, and I have enough faith in humanity that I trust others who know more than me.

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Old 10-31-2012, 08:47 AM
 
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Ah, glad to have found this thread, I am mostly what people consider "crunchy" lol... but we do vax. We vax'd my daughter on schedule completely, but then again we did everything routine and cookie cutter with her in the beginning. Since becoming pregnant with my son and informing myself on vaxing we are still going to vaccinate him but I want it on a delayed schedule this time. He is a month old and has not received the hep b, or any other type of vaccine or shot.

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Old 10-31-2012, 09:15 AM
 
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Welcome! We didn't do hep b at birth, either. It wasn't offered at our birth center, but I also don't like it because it can cause lethargy which can interfere with breastfeeding. got it at two months, though.
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Old 10-31-2012, 07:55 PM
 
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I've fallen behind on this thread! I just have a few things:

 

Rightkindofme, your doctor's office's policy sucks. My doctor pretty much assumed I would be nursing when we did the shot. She was like, okay, I'm all ready as soon as you want to latch him on! I did, and then she administered the shot. For the record, we did two shots per appointment, one at a time. We nursed during the shots at 2 and 4 months, then at 6 months he wasn't hungry so wouldn't nurse. So she just gave him the shot while he was sitting on my husband's lap. He watched it go in his thigh kind of interestedly, and then laughed at our doctor because she was smiling at him. Clearly he didn't have a problem with the pain. When I nursed him at 2 and 4 months, he did pop off and cry right after the shot, and then latch back on, and I'm glad we were nursing because it was comforting for both of us.

 

I tried to act nonchalant and not overly sympathetic each time, like I do if he bumps his head or something and needs a quick cuddle. I think it helps if you're not panicking.

 

I've mentioned before on this thread that we didn't do Hep B at birth because we don't do that in Canada. A vaccine at birth seems a bit much to me.

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Old 10-31-2012, 08:03 PM
 
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My daughter isn't really phased by shots. She cried more watching me get a flu shot than she did when she got her own flu shot.
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Old 10-31-2012, 08:39 PM
 
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I have more decisions to make over shots coming up soon

Autoimmune stuff runs in our family and so do allergies.  We will be doing travel internationally, but not until baby is older.  

 

I am not interested in the roto or flu shot.  

I do want Dtap and MMR. 

Two others I am making decisions about: PC and HIB

I do want to do the chickenpox vaccine but not until a certain age, unsure of that age as of yet. Chickenpox was really bad for me.

I do want to give Hep B but not for awhile, I haven't decided when.  

I would like to do the least amount of shots possible but also still given DC immunity and protection from the shots, without getting so many of the same ones every couple of months.

Any suggestions?  


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Old 10-31-2012, 08:55 PM
 
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I curious why you never want to do a flu shot.
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Old 10-31-2012, 09:39 PM
 
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I don't think I can give suggestions to you because I don't know about your reasoning for why you like some vaccines and not others, or what your thought process has been. Like, is there a reason why you want to protect from chickenpox (but only after a certain age) but not meningitis? Is it a risk/benefit thing or something else?

 

I will say that they do give Hep B to adolescents instead of newborns in Canada, if you want to know an alternate schedule for that.

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Old 11-01-2012, 03:07 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Since HepB at brith has come up several times, I just wanted to comment that in the UK this is only offered at birth to babies of mothers who have tested positive for Hep B. It is available later at any age for children considered at high risk of exposure. 

 

My daughter was born in the US, but I'm pretty sure she didn't get it at birth either. I don't remember it ever coming up. 


Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

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Old 11-01-2012, 04:45 AM
 
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most babies are routinely vaxed for hepb in the nursery before they go home in the USA..it's common practice...some hospitals, a mom can refuse and get it later at the pedi's

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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

Since HepB at brith has come up several times, I just wanted to comment that in the UK this is only offered at birth to babies of mothers who have tested positive for Hep B. It is available later at any age for children considered at high risk of exposure. 

 

My daughter was born in the US, but I'm pretty sure she didn't get it at birth either. I don't remember it ever coming up. 

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Old 11-01-2012, 06:53 AM
 
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All hospitals mom can refuse and get it later.

I think the policy is different in the US because hep b is so much more prevalent here. The thing about the birth dose is that if mochas hep b (and very frequently if mom ha it she doesn't know) that birth dose is your one best chance to protect baby.

I did want my child to be protected earlier than adolescence because there is a fair amount of child to child transmission.
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