Yes/no vaccinations for new baby on Canada - France travel? - Mothering Forums
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 25 Old 07-16-2012, 05:35 AM - Thread Starter
 
lulu27's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 27
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Hi! we're expecting our first baby (first for me, 3rd for my partner) in early January/late December and are hoping to travel to the south of France within the next month of two for an extended stay. We're trying to figure out if we need/should wait to get the 2-month vaccinations before we go, or if we're able to safely go sooner, provided the baby is well and healthy and everything else is good for travel.

 

Any feedback/thoughts/suggestions/advice? :)

lulu27 is offline  
#2 of 25 Old 07-16-2012, 10:00 AM
 
ma2two's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,465
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)

This is July, you are hoping to go to France in August or September for an extended stay, and the baby will be born in December or January. It sounds like the baby will be born in France.

 

So I'm wondering how you could wait until the 2 month vaccines to travel.

 

Babies are born in France all the time, and they are fine.

ma2two is offline  
#3 of 25 Old 07-16-2012, 10:03 AM - Thread Starter
 
lulu27's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 27
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Woops! I just reread my own post - this is what happens upon writing too early in the morning after a sleepless night!

 

Baby will be born in January, and we are hoping to travel to France shortly after the baby is born (not a month or two from now, a month or two after the baby is born :) So we are thinking February or March, and wondering about waiting until the baby receives its 2-month vaccinations, or travelling to France prior to its 2-month vacs?

lulu27 is offline  
#4 of 25 Old 07-16-2012, 10:24 AM
 
bri276's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 6,050
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Personally, I wouldn't delay DTaP for any reason, and we're pretty darn selective/delayed.  So yes, I'd definitely wait until about 2 wks after at least the first DTaP, which I would get on schedule.


DD1 7/13/05 DD2 9/20/10
bri276 is offline  
#5 of 25 Old 07-16-2012, 01:50 PM
 
ma2two's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,465
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)

lol, now I see. Sorry. It was possible to read it that way, but I didn't.

 

We don't vaccinate at all, so of course I would have no problem traveling to France without vaccines for my baby. People who vaccinate exactly on schedule will feel differently, of course.

 

I always have sodium ascorbate at home, and I would bring it on any extended trip as well. It proved to be a very effective treatment for pertussis when my family had it. It can be given to infants mixed with formula or breast milk.

purslaine likes this.
ma2two is offline  
#6 of 25 Old 07-16-2012, 01:59 PM
 
purslaine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 6,937
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Check out the likelihood of pertussis in the south of France and then decide.

 

I have heard the first DTaP shot is sort of a primer - and offers little in the way of protection.  You might need to wait to 4 months if you want baby to have any sort of coverage.

 

Can you get the DTaP in France?

 

The diptheria and tetanus would not worry me at all.

 

I am non-vax.  There are places I would not bring an unvaxxed newborn - France is not among them.

purslaine is offline  
#7 of 25 Old 07-16-2012, 02:24 PM
 
bri276's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 6,050
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

The airports and airplanes would also be concerns for exposure to pertussis.  And pertussis is endemic in France, as it is worldwide. 

 

The highest fatality risk is in infants less than 2 months because even one vaccine is helpful in ameliorating the progression of the disease.  Of course, waiting until at least 3 vaccines have been given would be the safest choice, but for many reasons, we all have to make less than ideal choices and do the best we can.


DD1 7/13/05 DD2 9/20/10
bri276 is offline  
#8 of 25 Old 07-16-2012, 02:32 PM
 
purslaine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 6,937
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bri276 View Post

The airports and airplanes would also be concerns for exposure to pertussis.  And pertussis is endemic in France, as it is worldwide. 

 

The highest fatality risk is in infants less than 2 months because even one vaccine is helpful in ameliorating the progression of the disease.  Of course, waiting until at least 3 vaccines have been given would be the safest choice, but for many reasons, we all have to make less than ideal choices and do the best we can.

"Endemic" is nice - but I would want hard stats.  I am sure they are available online. Is the pertussis rate higher than Canada's - where it seems the OP is from?

 

Op, please read post 16 on this thread, where a poster explains and cites where she got the information that the first DTaP shot was a primer of sorts and offers little protection from pertussis:

 

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1355060/1-in-100-who-get-pertussis-will-diehttp://www.mothering.com/community/t/1355060/1-in-100-who-get-pertussis-will-die

purslaine is offline  
#9 of 25 Old 07-16-2012, 04:45 PM
 
ma2two's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,465
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bri276 View Post

The highest fatality risk is in infants less than 2 months because even one vaccine is helpful in ameliorating the progression of the disease.  

That is not the reason. The reason is that newborns are smaller and more vulnerable to a lot of things. 

purslaine likes this.
ma2two is offline  
#10 of 25 Old 07-16-2012, 05:26 PM
 
bri276's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 6,050
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

It is one reason.  Otherwise, the same fatalities would be seen in all babies after age 2 months whether they were vaccinated or not, and that's not the case.

 

There are more reported cases of pertussis in Canada than France.  This is hardly a ringing endorsement of a decision to not vaccinate a Canadian child.  Also, the airplanes and airports won't contain only French nationals.

 

Post #16, btw, is wrong.  Most infants do show increased antibody levels after one dose of aP vaccine.  

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10849113


DD1 7/13/05 DD2 9/20/10
bri276 is offline  
#11 of 25 Old 07-16-2012, 06:00 PM
 
ma2two's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,465
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bri276 View Post

It is one reason.  Otherwise, the same fatalities would be seen in all babies after age 2 months whether they were vaccinated or not, and that's not the case.

Can you show us something to back up that assertion?

ma2two is offline  
#12 of 25 Old 07-16-2012, 07:11 PM
 
purslaine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 6,937
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bri276 View Post

It is one reason.  Otherwise, the same fatalities would be seen in all babies after age 2 months whether they were vaccinated or not, and that's not the case.

 

 

 

There are more reported cases of pertussis in Canada than France.  This is hardly a ringing endorsement of a decision to not vaccinate a Canadian child.  Also, the airplanes and airports won't contain only French nationals.

 

If you are delayed or non-vax, it makes sense to look at the country you are trying to visit and see what their rate of a particular disease is.  If it is much higher than your country of origin, or if the medical care there is poor, you might consider vaxxing or skipping the visit.  The medical care in France is adequate (probably more than adequate) and the pertussis rate seems reasonably low - or in keeping with other countries. 

 

Yes, an airport is a hotbed of germs and the like…but so are malls, buses, etc.  I think there is some value in keeping newborns home (or not in enclosed places) - but that is a personal risk issue thing. I can see a person wanting to skip an enclosed space, but it is hardly just over pertussis.   

 

Post #16, btw, is wrong.  Most infants do show increased antibody levels after one dose of aP vaccine.  

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10849113

 

I guess the Op will have to read and decide for herself. shrug.gif

 

purslaine is offline  
#13 of 25 Old 07-16-2012, 07:21 PM
 
Bokonon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: San Diego
Posts: 2,975
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bri276 View Post

It is one reason.  Otherwise, the same fatalities would be seen in all babies after age 2 months whether they were vaccinated or not, and that's not the case.

 

 

It is my understanding that as a baby ages, their lungs are better equipped to handle the illness.  I'd have to re-read the information about it, but I think it has something to do with the cilia in the lungs not being able to expel the mucus when they are newborn.


A, jammin.gif mama to a boy (2005) and a girl (2009)
Bokonon is offline  
#14 of 25 Old 07-16-2012, 07:53 PM
 
purslaine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 6,937
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I would encourage you to read on the effectiveness of DTaP, period, before making any decisions.  At least you have some time to do it!

purslaine is offline  
#15 of 25 Old 07-16-2012, 08:02 PM
 
ma2two's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,465
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

I would encourage you to read on the effectiveness of DaPT, period, before making any decisions.  

I'm sure you mean DTaP. I just wanted to make that correction to make her research easier.

purslaine likes this.
ma2two is offline  
#16 of 25 Old 07-16-2012, 08:29 PM
 
MichelleZB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 989
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)

You could also investigate getting some vaccines in France, I suppose, if you happen to be in the country around the time of your child's first vaccine round. Though that could be expensive.

MichelleZB is offline  
#17 of 25 Old 07-17-2012, 05:03 AM
 
purslaine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 6,937
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Lastly, and totally unrelated to VPD…..

 

I do question your timing on planning a major vacation or trip.

 

I have 3 children - with 2 of them I would not have wanted to travel with them as newborns.

 

baby #1 - did not nurse well until at least 6 weeks, nursed all the time and I was completely sleep deprived.  A vacation would have been do-able, but I doubt I would have enjoyed myself as much as if I had waited

 

baby#2  - really easy baby.  I could have travelled with her anywhere.

 

Baby#3 - Needed to be in the NICU at birth.  She was fine after 2 weeks or so, but I would not have wanted to take a baby that may or may not have medical needs out of the country and away from her health care providers.

 

I urge you to ask around on whether or not people think it is a good idea to travel with a newborn or if they would wait.  Newborns can be hard.  By 4 months or so all my kids were golden and I could enjoy life (and any potential trips) a lot more.  

purslaine is offline  
#18 of 25 Old 07-17-2012, 06:11 AM
 
Asiago's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,743
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)

Are you going to breastfeed? This is your baby's primary protection against respiratory disease (and gastrointestinal). Feeding directly from the breast and sharing the same environment with your baby will expose your body to the germs (pathogens) that she is exposed to, therefore allowing your body to produce the antibodies that she will need. Separation from baby, where baby is in an environment apart from mother's, risks this natural process. Although there are also antibodies previously transferred via placenta, the daily milk from mother's breast will be tailored to the germs baby is exposed to on a daily basis. Being in close contact with baby, and it's skin, saliva, urine and feces is part of this ongoing process. The lactoferrin, oligosaccharides and lysozyme in mother's milk provide steady ongoing protection also.

 

Whatever you decide about vaccination, I would still learn the technique for removing mucous from lungs of an infant with pertussis.

 

Lastly....if possible postpone the trip for a few months. The first two months are a period of vulnerability, plus being a new mother it may take a bit of time to figure out breastfeeding. Then there is the establishment of milk supply. Stress, missed feeds, and other factors can effect milk production.

 

Good luck whatever you decide and well wishes for the birth of your new baby.

Asiago is online now  
#19 of 25 Old 07-17-2012, 06:55 AM
 
MamaMunchkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 355
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)

During the journey itself, not sure what to tell you - it's generally recommended to travel when the baby gets older.  If I were you, I'd look for stats and data on how flying affects the risks of a newborn getting sick, and by how much the risks change.

 

But, once you get there ... CDC has health advisory updates on different countries.  Have you checked this - http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/destinations/france.htm


Pro rights (vaxes).
MamaMunchkin is offline  
#20 of 25 Old 07-17-2012, 08:01 PM
Banned
 
stik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,942
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I traveled cross-country with both my daughters when they were under 8 weeks old.  Tiny babies are so portable, and comparatively easy to fly with because they sleep so much.  I don't think it would have made a difference to them if we were going to Southern France instead of Central Massachusetts.  Also, IMO, the time you can go to the South of France for a couple months is the time to go to the South of France.  Obviously, if something goes terribly wrong and the baby is in the NICU, your plans will change, but that would be true regardless of whether or not your plans included European travel. 

 

I don't know how extended your stay will be, but if you're going to be there for under a month, you probably can shift doctor visits and vaccines around it, and if you're going to be there for more than 6 weeks or so you will want to have a doc in country.  If you have friends or family in France, they might be able to help you arrange this.  If you're staying at a hotel or resort, give them a call - I bet they can help you find someone.  My (limited) understanding is that medical care in France isn't horribly expensive, even for tourists who aren't part of France's health care system and therefore have to pay out-of-pocket. 

stik is offline  
#21 of 25 Old 07-17-2012, 11:13 PM
 
MeepyCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 3,669
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
On pure, uninformed speculation, I am imagining this trip as a plan to spend part of your baby's early infancy with a loving extended family in a beautiful location. Or a piece of extended gastro-tourism best undertaken while your child is not in one of the phases when s/he can ruin your lunch by throwing a tantrum over stinky cheese. A way to pass the time while your house is remodeled. Rootstock shopping for a vineyard. Fact finding for a novel. Or a long-cherished plan of some kind, which will only be more delightful in the company of your new baby.

I'd like a few months in the South of France myself - I envy you. I hope nothing happens to upset the plan, and you all have a lovely time.

I think you should find a ped there. Do the standard wcv with a ped in Canada before you leave, making whatever vax decisions you like. Get copies of the medical records to bring with you, and pass them to a pediatrician there, continuing wcv on whatever schedule that ped recommends. When you return to Canada, get copies of the medical records again.
lulu27 likes this.
MeepyCat is online now  
#22 of 25 Old 07-18-2012, 06:41 AM - Thread Starter
 
lulu27's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 27
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Oh my, thank-you so much everyone for the input!!!!!

 

I want to clarify that we are not automatically planning a trip to France until we know that everything is fine with the baby, and myself, and see how things go. We have talked with both my family doctor and our prenatal doctor and they both agree that pending the birth, that there are no complications baby-wise with health, and that I'm doing fine post-partum, that we're actually very likely candidates to do some early travelling. We're not hoping for the type of travel where we're doing constant day-trips and exhausting ourselves. Rather, we live now in a place where February/March are full of blizzards, snow storms, and city-wide shutdowns for snowdays, and spring is non-existant, and depression rates skyrocket during these months due to the terrible weather. My partner has two older children who will stay home with their mother, should we travel - and we hope to go rent a place for a few weeks and just sleep, breastfeed, be quiet, somewhere where the climate is a bit better and we have some peace and relax with our new baby outside of snowstorms and older children who require lots of driving to various lessons/events etc.

 

Neither of us are walking into this blindly - my partner having two children already, and I was a full-time private childcare provider for over 15 years of multiples, newborns, toddlers, and up to 5-7 children sometimes at a time, plus overnights. All of this will help, as well as my being a doula, and having many supports around us including friends who are lactations consultants and doctors who will do housecalls, friends who are midwives and doulas, to help us in the early days should there be breastfeeding issues or health problems. Of course, we're not booking anything until the baby is born and we see how things go, as there is no predicting despite all our hopes and preparation :) :) :)

 

That being said, we'd rather do lots of research in advance so that if it does work out, it will make it much easier!! I hadn't thought of doing vacs in France - we thought France as I've spent lots of time previously there, and thought it a bit less risky than perhaps somewhere in the Caribbean. I did indeed look up the travel warnings and disease info on Canada's Health Agency etc, and everything looks fine, except in the pyrenees which we can certainly plan to avoid.

 

But baby vacs are something, in all my experience, I know very little about, so any links, info, etc on these first vacs, how they help/don't help, people's concerns, etc, are all enormously helpful as we try to prepare!!! So yes, please keep it coming, and thankyou all so much!!!
 

purslaine likes this.
lulu27 is offline  
#23 of 25 Old 07-18-2012, 07:50 AM
 
MeepyCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 3,669
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)

No need to thank me, at least.  DH and I had a fab time inventing complicated and awesome reasons for going to the south of France on our ride to work this morning.  :)

MeepyCat is online now  
#24 of 25 Old 07-18-2012, 08:05 AM
 
ahdancesing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 10
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

When DD was born, pertussis was being passed from child to child in our neighborhood...and our house (the town where we live is one of the places in the US with the highest number of reported cases).  Two of the four children who live in our home had pertussis from the time DD was 2 weeks until she was 6 weeks old (btw the children who got pertussis were vax'd).  DD was fine...and still is fine.  She is breastfed and extremely healthy.  DD is now 6 months old and we have already traveled by air, been in airports, taken the city bus, walked through multiple malls, and spent time in a local elementary school (the exact school that has all the cases of pertussis).  I, personally, wouldn't allow a vaccination to keep me from traveling...BUT I am a non-vax mom.

ahdancesing is offline  
#25 of 25 Old 07-23-2012, 10:54 PM
 
LauMa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I second a recommendation for breastfeeding, in my opinion it is a stronger, better defence than vaccinations. And a good, natural, non-synthetic vit D supplement, as vit D is a highly under-rated in immune booster in adults I would imagine it would also prove effective in babies.

LauMa is offline  
Reply

Tags
Delayed Vaccination , Selective Vaccination

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off