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#1 of 57 Old 08-22-2012, 12:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I am really interested in hearing from people who believe in vaccination, but make "mindful" and considered choices about which and when.  I will post this sentiment in several areas, but it seems that much of the discussion even in this section is dominated by people trying to convince others to avoid vaccinating.  My story- I rejected the hospital newborn vaccines and other substances for both daughters: Heb B because they seem to be only a convenience population for that vaccine, eye drops because I do not have any STDs and was tested to prove this and Vitamin K because there was no indication of any birth trauma, not even any molding with my second daughter.  I would have gladly accepted the clotting factor of Vitamin K if it was needed, but did not want them injected needlessly.  I delayed DD1's vaccines a couple months because she was very tiny (5'13 at birth).  When she was one I switched to a naturopathic physician who is out of my network, but worth every penny.  She has helped me consider each vaccine individually and always provides the cleanest (free of metals) vaccines possible.  She treats everything with homeopathic remedies before trying drugs, so I very much trust her integrity and opinion on the vaccines. We have done only one vaccine at a time she does them herself, rather than passes them off to the nurse.  My DD1 has only ever had mild, immune response reactions to combo vaccines (slight fever, fussiness).  Doing them one at a time has allowed me to connect any reaction to a specific shot.  She is 6 and pretty much through.  I now have a new baby to consider (almost 2 months) and I am hoping she responds like DD1.  She has yet to get any vaccines.  My pediatric practice believes in waiting until after 2 months to let their immune systems build some ability to properly respond to the vaccine.  The pediatrician and I have decided that the first one to get is the DTap because I teach at a University in a county that had a pertussis outbreak 2  years ago and my babies have on site child care with student nannies.  My older DD did not get her first until 3.5 months, but she did not go to school with me until 6 months.  DD2 needs to go at 2 months.  Anyone know if pertussis is a winter thing like other respiratory illnesses?  Can I wait a couple months?  I will be talking to her (the doc) about it too, but thought I would ask.


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#2 of 57 Old 08-22-2012, 06:36 PM
 
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Whooping cough is typically a winter illness, but outbreaks can happen anytime.  In Vermont, whooping cough outbreaks have happened this past winter and this summer.

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#3 of 57 Old 08-26-2012, 01:59 AM
 
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As far as I have read, the peak season is July/August?

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#4 of 57 Old 08-26-2012, 05:32 AM
 
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This year in New Jersey it was Jan-Apr.

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#5 of 57 Old 09-01-2012, 12:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Update- my LO went through her first shot with flying colors.  Besides guaranteeing the additive free vaccines, my Pediatrician uses this shot blocker thing- a piece of plastic with lots of little points (kind of like a doll's hairbrush, if that makes sense); it distributes the pressure over a wider area on the leg, so they don't feel the needle so much.  She did not even wake up!  She just grimaced a bit and kept sleeping.  No fever last night, no fussiness.  She seems to be totally unaffected. I have heard some people say the 2nd one can be worse, but I glad this one went by so easily.


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#6 of 57 Old 09-01-2012, 12:22 PM
 
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I'm glad the shot went well!

 

What do you mean by "additive free vaccines?" Are you referring to any specific ingredients?

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#7 of 57 Old 09-01-2012, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I mean my Pediatric practice are naturopaths and they get all vaccines thimerosal and aluminum free (or a close to free as available- since I know there may be an argument on this).  I also trust my Pediatric office to get the "safest" available, as I selected them because their principles are aligned with mine.  They encourage delayed vaccines and doing one at a time.  She also gave me Thuja pellets (a Homeopathic to reduce on site swelling and other reactions) that worked great for my older DD.  The baby just takes one disolved in a bit water and given in a dropper a couple times a day.  I much prefer this to tylenol, since she has not had any fever.  DD1 always likes the homeopathic pellets; she has never taken antibiotics (she is 6.5) for her very few, mild illnesses.  We have used homeopathic treatments for her occasional cold sores (she caught the virus when she has a toddler) and that and vitamin C seem to work wonders.  A bit of a tangent there, but meant to demonstrate the style of our great Pediatrician!


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#8 of 57 Old 09-01-2012, 01:17 PM
 
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What are your doctor's favorite brands for the various vaccines?

 

Unfortunately, there is no aluminum-free or even "low" aluminum DTaP. There are brands lower in aluminum than others, but none of them could be considered low.

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#9 of 57 Old 09-02-2012, 08:32 AM - Thread Starter
 
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ma2two- are you a selective vaccinator yourself with advice on which brands are safest?  Or are you anti-vax, trying to prove I won't find safe vaccines?  As I said, I selected my pediatrician because I trust her. We had another practice with DD1 for most of her first year and I was uncomfortable with the assembly line, by the book approach they had to everything.  We conducted extensive research before we chose our current Pediatrician and pay out of network (though it is difficult financially) to work with the practice we were most comfortable with and that, coincidentally, comes most highly recommended by the natural parenting and home birth type organizations in the area.  I trust her judgement on vaccine selection over whatever internet data I could find on the brands, so I do not ask her to confirm the brand from the single vial vaccines she uses. I chose her because I wanted a medical practitioner I could trust to know more than I do about some things.  I have my expertise and she has hers (I know there are some who do not believe in the value of a medical education, but I do).  I agonize over every vaccine decision; I do them one at a time and I watch my children for negative reactions, but my fear of VPD's and my belief in herd immunity usually wins out. I have one bright, healthy, vibrant child with this parenting choice and I am trusting that my 2nd child will be the same.  My OP showed that I struggled over getting this DTaP for my barely 2 month old, but decided I wanted to start getting her protected from pertussis because we have some real risk of exposure.  She still has some risk because she is just starting the series and some kids still get it even though they are vaccinated, but between my immunity from a booster before I became pregnant and her one vaccine, she is more protected.  I am happy with my decision and how well baby came through this one- this was the point of my post- not to get into a debate.


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#10 of 57 Old 09-02-2012, 09:35 AM
 
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I mean my Pediatric practice are naturopaths and they get all vaccines thimerosal and aluminum free (or a close to free as available- since I know there may be an argument on this).  

Can you find out which aluminum-free and/or low-aluminum vaccines your pediatrician uses and let us know which ones they are? 

That would be very helpful. Thanks!

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#11 of 57 Old 09-02-2012, 10:25 AM
 
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Can you find out which aluminum-free and/or low-aluminum vaccines your pediatrician uses and let us know which ones they are? 


That would be very helpful. Thanks!

Very helpful so you can try and convince her that the doctor she trusts is wrong? Taximom I doubt there is anyone here who doesn't know that you are an anti-vax member of MDC. I have seen you on several occasions in the I'm not vaxing forum ask that others take their selective/delayed opinions elsewhere, considering the OP has already told ma2two her feelings maybe you should respect her wishes as well.
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#12 of 57 Old 09-02-2012, 12:44 PM
 
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ma2two- are you a selective vaccinator yourself with advice on which brands are safest?  Or are you anti-vax, trying to prove I won't find safe vaccines?  

 

I'm wondering how the answer to that question would make any difference as to the specific ingredients of each vaccine. I'm not sure how your posts in this thread could be helpful to anyone, talking about a wonderful anonymous doctor who uses unnamed safe vaccines, which you are unable to name because you trust her so much. Furthermore, when you wrote that your doctor guarantees "additive free vaccines," I think that is misleading and potentially harmful to someone who is new to vaccine research, who might believe that is a possibility. According to the vaccine package inserts and this handy table provided by the CDC, there are no "additive free" vaccines. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/b/excipient-table-2.pdf

 

Out of the 3 DTaP vaccines (the ones that only contain diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis), I think it's generally thought that Daptacel is the best, because unlike Tripedia, it contains no mercury, and it has less aluminum and formaldehyde than Infanrix. However, I don't know which brand actually has the lowest rate of adverse reactions, which is something your doctor might have experience with.

 

Here are the package inserts for all 3 DTaP vaccines.

 

Daptacel http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM103037.pdf

Infanrix http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM124514.pdf

Tripedia http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM101580.pdf

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#13 of 57 Old 09-02-2012, 04:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm glad to give a recommendation to the pediatrician to anyone in the SF peninsula. Just PM me. As for "not being helpful" or "harming people researching the vaccine question", if I were to respond or make equivalent remarks about anti-vaxers, I would probably be accused of all sorts of things, so I will refrain from sharing the responses that come to mind. I did not say that I had no knowledge of what vaccines she generally uses, but that I was not interested in getting unsolicited Internet assessments of the vaccines' make-up. I apologize if my "additive free" remark is not quite accurate and raised hackles as "dangerous" additives are one of the primary justifications for not vaccinating. I guess I mean free of some and low in others. From that you can guess her brands or assume she's lying; I don't care. Although we can all read the fda's website, no one should be getting medical advice from online forums- from me or anyone else. I really wish that the Selective Vaccination Forum had more comments from "mindful vaccinators" (as mothering suggested we be called) and less from anti-vaxers pushing their perspective or jumping on any chance to criticize. It seems to be the point of this forum. I would be nice if I could share my relief in a successful vaccine appointment without the certainty that someone would try to poke holes in it to promote their own agenda. I guess I should write the moderators if they don't notice on their own.

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#14 of 57 Old 09-03-2012, 05:31 PM
 
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I guess I'm a little confused, but it doesn't really matter. winky.gif It's just that you brought up the "additive free" vaccine thing yourself, as something you really liked about your doctor, and now you are turning that around as something only the "anti-vax" crowd cares about. QUOTE: "I apologize if my "additive free" remark is not quite accurate and raised hackles as "dangerous" additives are one of the primary justifications for not vaccinating."

(And actually, I don't think that is a primary "justification." I mean, if people didn't think vaccines harmed anyone, it wouldn't matter what was in them). But that's a whole nother thread, lol.

 

My main point is, facts about ingredients and amounts of ingredients are just that--facts. Nothing to get defensive about, no matter who gives you that information.

 

That said, I'm really happy you're relieved about her successful vaccine appointment!

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#15 of 57 Old 09-03-2012, 08:06 PM
 
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I guess I'm a little confused, but it doesn't really matter. winky.gif It's just that you brought up the "additive free" vaccine thing yourself, as something you really liked about your doctor, and now you are turning that around as something only the "anti-vax" crowd cares about. QUOTE: "I apologize if my "additive free" remark is not quite accurate and raised hackles as "dangerous" additives are one of the primary justifications for not vaccinating."

(And actually, I don't think that is a primary "justification." I mean, if people didn't think vaccines harmed anyone, it wouldn't matter what was in them). But that's a whole nother thread, lol.

 

My main point is, facts about ingredients and amounts of ingredients are just that--facts. Nothing to get defensive about, no matter who gives you that information.

 

That said, I'm really happy you're relieved about her successful vaccine appointment!

I'm a bit confused, myself.

 

What was the point of the original post and updates?  Your question about whether pertussis is a winter thing was answered by more than one poster, but others had questions. Why so defensive about answering those questions?

 

If you want to recommend your pediatrician as "vax friendly," there's a specific thread for that.

 

If you want to let people know that there are pediatric vaccines that are thimerosal/aluminum free, why not answer our questions as to which vaccines those are?  Since none of us have been able to find an aluminum-free or even a low-aluminum DTaP, why would you advertise that your pediatrician uses only low-aluminum vaccines, and then lash out at the posters asking more questions about that?

 

There are 3 possibilities, all easy to deal with:

 

Either we are wrong, and there ARE low-aluminum DTaPs (so you could tell us which ones)

or

Your pediatrician is wrong (and you could let her know that she is mistaken)

or 

You misunderstood your pediatrician, and she already knows that the DTaP is not low-aluminum.

 

What's the big deal?

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#16 of 57 Old 09-03-2012, 08:07 PM
 
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Double post, sorry!
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#17 of 57 Old 09-03-2012, 09:46 PM
 
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I guess I'm a little confused, but it doesn't really matter. winky.gif It's just that you brought up the "additive free" vaccine thing yourself, as something you really liked about your doctor, and now you are turning that around as something only the "anti-vax" crowd cares about. QUOTE: "I apologize if my "additive free" remark is not quite accurate and raised hackles as "dangerous" additives are one of the primary justifications for not vaccinating."

(And actually, I don't think that is a primary "justification." I mean, if people didn't think vaccines harmed anyone, it wouldn't matter what was in them). But that's a whole nother thread, lol.

 

My main point is, facts about ingredients and amounts of ingredients are just that--facts. Nothing to get defensive about, no matter who gives you that information.

 

That said, I'm really happy you're relieved about her successful vaccine appointment!

I'm a bit confused, myself.

 

What was the point of the original post and updates?  Your question about whether pertussis is a winter thing was answered by more than one poster, but others had questions. Why so defensive about answering those questions?

 

If you want to recommend your pediatrician as "vax friendly," there's a specific thread for that.

 

If you want to let people know that there are pediatric vaccines that are thimerosal/aluminum free, why not answer our questions as to which vaccines those are?  Since none of us have been able to find an aluminum-free or even a low-aluminum DTaP, why would you advertise that your pediatrician uses only low-aluminum vaccines, and then lash out at the posters asking more questions about that?

 

There are 3 possibilities, all easy to deal with:

 

Either we are wrong, and there ARE low-aluminum DTaPs (so you could tell us which ones)

or

Your pediatrician is wrong (and you could let her know that she is mistaken)

or 

You misunderstood your pediatrician, and she already knows that the DTaP is not low-aluminum.

 

What's the big deal?


I'm guessing that the OP didn't want to answer your and ma2two's questions because she knows that you are both firmly set in the "I'm Nox Vaxing" camp and she didn't want her thread, which is appropriately placed in selective & delayed vaxing, to be turned into a battle over how vaxing is wrong.
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#18 of 57 Old 09-03-2012, 10:16 PM
 
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I'm guessing that the OP didn't want to answer your and ma2two's questions because she knows that you are both firmly set in the "I'm Nox Vaxing" camp and she didn't want her thread, which is appropriately placed in selective & delayed vaxing, to be turned into a battle over how vaxing is wrong.

 

LOL, this has all been very strange. Is vaccinating wrong because there is aluminum in all DTaP vaccines, and not in low amounts? I suppose that's something for each parent to decide for him or herself. But the decision cannot be made without that information.

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#19 of 57 Old 09-04-2012, 12:22 AM
 
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I'd be interested in what vaccines are aluminum free too...we're currently re-evaluating our options as our kids have gotten older and have been researching Aussie equivalent products, but if there are American versions that do not use aluminum, I'd like to talk to our GP about that and are the various companies here doing something similar. 


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#20 of 57 Old 09-04-2012, 12:26 PM
 
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 dizzy.gif  I felt as if I'd stepped into the twilight zone reading this thread! So much defensiveness for no reason that I can see. Its sad when a person cannot ask a question without being accused of having an agenda. I get that this can be a heated toic but why do people need to get so testy?

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#21 of 57 Old 09-04-2012, 12:42 PM
 
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I'd be interested in what vaccines are aluminum free too...we're currently re-evaluating our options as our kids have gotten older and have been researching Aussie equivalent products, but if there are American versions that do not use aluminum, I'd like to talk to our GP about that and are the various companies here doing something similar. 

 

The package inserts for all U.S. vaccines are on the FDA's website.

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/ucm093833.htm

Each vaccine package insert lists the ingredients and their amounts, in the section titled, "Description."

 

Here is an ingredient summary from the CDC's website.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf

 

Live virus vaccines (MMR, rotavirus, chickenpox, shingles) cannot contain aluminum. Other than that, it appears that the only vaccines that don't contain aluminum are flu, meningococcal, the Hiberix brand of Hib, and the polio-only vaccine (monkey kidney cell IPOL).

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#22 of 57 Old 09-04-2012, 03:35 PM
 
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Thanks. thumb.gif I'm specifically in discussions with the GP here about the Td vaccine, but I'll start a separate thread. It would have been nice to say to him though, "Hey, the Americans have stopped using aluminum in certain vaccines, so why can't Australian manufacturers do the same?" 


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#23 of 57 Old 09-04-2012, 04:57 PM
 
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Thanks. thumb.gif I'm specifically in discussions with the GP here about the Td vaccine, but I'll start a separate thread. It would have been nice to say to him though, "Hey, the Americans have stopped using aluminum in certain vaccines, so why can't Australian manufacturers do the same?" 

Yes, that would be nice to be able to say, but I don't think that aluminum has been reduced or eliminated from any vaccines. The only ingredient that I know has been eliminated or reduced is thimerosal, by putting vaccines in single dose vials rather than multi-dose vials.

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#24 of 57 Old 09-05-2012, 01:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I yield, even though I said I did not want to debate specifics.  There is not a secret miracle DTaP with no additives.  I misspoke (as I have already conceded).  My Pediatrician gets all AVAILABLE additive free vaccines and trace or low in others.  She uses Daptacel.  So if we are saying .33 mgs of aluminum is not low, I do not know how to respond except for unless you have tested your breast milk for aluminum content, none of us are sure they are not getting as much just from your environment.  I do not think all questions are just questions, though; some are clear set ups for debate.  As for defensiveness, I am still hoping this forum can be a source for selective vaccinators to discuss their choices, not just defend them.  My happy (and clearly not specific enough) post about my vaccine appointment led to debate instead.  I will make sure to choose my words more carefully next time I post on the vaccine forum.

 

By the way, if there are others who are genuinely curious, I found out that late summer and early fall are the high time for pertussis, which is why I got this vax first.


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#26 of 57 Old 09-05-2012, 03:53 PM
 
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I yield, even though I said I did not want to debate specifics.  There is not a secret miracle DTaP with no additives.  I misspoke (as I have already conceded).  My Pediatrician gets all AVAILABLE additive free vaccines and trace or low in others.  She uses Daptacel.  So if we are saying .33 mgs of aluminum is not low, I do not know how to respond except for unless you have tested your breast milk for aluminum content, none of us are sure they are not getting as much just from your environment.  I do not think all questions are just questions, though; some are clear set ups for debate.  As for defensiveness, I am still hoping this forum can be a source for selective vaccinators to discuss their choices, not just defend them.  My happy (and clearly not specific enough) post about my vaccine appointment led to debate instead.  I will make sure to choose my words more carefully next time I post on the vaccine forum.

 

By the way, if there are others who are genuinely curious, I found out that late summer and early fall are the high time for pertussis, which is why I got this vax first.

 

Thank you. I was genuinely curious. From my other thread, you can see there is s substantial difference in aluminum content between American and Australian vaccines.

 

The season for pertussis varies, I believe, based on location. I know in our area, looking at the the reported cases for the year and all the gov't epidemiological data, spring is the peak season for us. It was November last year (spring in the southern hemisphere) that the notices went up at DD's school about reported cases.


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#27 of 57 Old 09-05-2012, 03:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by CA Country Girl View Post

My Pediatrician gets all AVAILABLE additive free vaccines and trace or low in others.  She uses Daptacel.  So if we are saying .33 mgs of aluminum is not low, I do not know how to respond except for unless you have tested your breast milk for aluminum content, none of us are sure they are not getting as much just from your environment. 

I thought we already established that additive free vaccines don't exist?

 

Ingested aluminum (from breastmilk, food, TUMS, etc.) pretty much goes straight through the body and is excreted. If you think that injected aluminum is comparable to ingested aluminum, I'm confused as to why you care at all how much is in vaccines? It should be a non-issue to you.

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#28 of 57 Old 09-05-2012, 03:55 PM
 
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From my other thread, you can see there is s substantial difference in aluminum content between American and Australian vaccines.

And also between different brands of U.S. vaccines.

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#29 of 57 Old 09-05-2012, 07:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I thought we already established that additive free vaccines don't exist?

 

Ingested aluminum (from breastmilk, food, TUMS, etc.) pretty much goes straight through the body and is excreted. If you think that injected aluminum is comparable to ingested aluminum, I'm confused as to why you care at all how much is in vaccines? It should be a non-issue to you.

 

 

What additives are you referring to?  There are preservative free vaccines.  Your post (your 3rd above) tells us their are some that do not use aluminum.  We know that there are some that are thimerosal free vaccines.  Are you saying none are free of both or are there other additives you are referring to?  I think the jury is still out on the difference between ingested and injected aluminum (except on some blogs) and people are definitely worried about ingested aluminum too.  I am "worried" about both.  I just believe in selective, one at a time, vaccination despite my worries.  I am concerned about all sorts of things my children and I might be exposed to in the environment- none of this is a "non-issue" to me.  I have just made different decisions then you.  And the pretense of "confusion" in order to criticize is not cute.  What exactly is your objective with the continuing questioning and challenging?  You are part of the majority on these boards.  Do you want to chase off other opinions?  Just make sure no misstatements (like mine in the first post you commented) go unchallenged?  Personally, I just rubbed you the wrong way?  Which is it?  

 

Still hoping there are some more actual Selective Vaccinators out there and this is just not one more site of debate on the Vaccine boards.  I thought there was a place for that.  I have seen people called out for initiating debate on the Not Vaccinating forum.  Why is it OK here and not there?


Metreehugger.gif College Literature Professor reading.gif(36) and DH (35) married 7/05, together since 1/99; Mom to two lovely and fierce little girls: DD1 2/06 and, after 18 months TTC (and a couple years NTNP), DD2 born 7/3/12!  Dedicated AP parent who is for selective (most) vaccination.

 

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#30 of 57 Old 09-05-2012, 08:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by CA Country Girl View Post

 

What additives are you referring to?  There are preservative free vaccines.  Your post (your 3rd above) tells us their are some that do not use aluminum.  We know that there are some that are thimerosal free vaccines.  Are you saying none are free of both or are there other additives you are referring to?  I think the jury is still out on the difference between ingested and injected aluminum (except on some blogs) 

 

I think to most people, anything that is not the antigen would be considered an additive. You might run into less confusion if you specify aluminum when you mean aluminum, and thimerosal when you mean thimerosal. Of course there are vaccines that are both aluminum and thimerosal free, as live virus vaccines cannot contain either ingredient. They still can contain MSG, fetal bovine serum, antibiotics, human DNA, etc.

 

Blogs aren't the greatest way to do research. Google Scholar is a good resource. With the keywords injected aluminum, there were 187,000 results.

 

Injected aluminum as an adjuvant in vaccines may be a necessary evil, but it should not be downplayed by comparing it to ingested aluminum in breastmilk.

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