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#91 of 157 Old 09-25-2012, 10:47 AM
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Just a reminder about our guidelines for this forum:

 

 

 

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This forum is not a place to argue against selective or delayed vaccination or debate vaccination in general. Such discussions are already hosted in the main Vaccinations forum and posts in that vein are most welcome and appropriate there. Our purpose for this forum is to provide information that is helpful for parents who have made the decision to vaccinate and are not seeking discussion against their decision but rather support and information to help them proceed in the best manner. Please respect this and post at all times with this in mind. Should you have any questions about the appropriateness of your post for this forum feel free to PM the forum moderator.

 

Let's keep the focus on topics related to selective and delayed vax and not totally provax at the expense of selective and delayed decisions.


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#92 of 157 Old 09-25-2012, 11:33 AM
 
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Let's keep the focus on topics related to selective and delayed vax and not totally provax at the expense of selective and delayed decisions.

 

I thought "Selective and Delayed" was meant to cover selecting all vaccines and choosing not to delay, so it would be a reasonable choice for the Doctor to discuss here.

 

 I might not have read every single post, but I think the only thing he said he wasn't willing to discuss was anything which implied standard CDC vaccines are experimental or dangerous, because he believes the system works (in general) to produce vaccines which are safety checked. 


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#93 of 157 Old 09-25-2012, 12:18 PM
 
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Dr.  do you have any information on studies that have been done comparing vaccinated people versus unvaccinated people?  I understand that the vaccine would make it less likely for the vaccinated to contract a vpd, but what about overall health?  I can't seem to find any info on that.  Which is weird because vaccines have been proven very, very safe and there must be studies like that...I just am probably not looking in the right places.  I'm  very interested in seeing studies comparing people's health over the course of a lifetime, vaccinated and unvaccinated.  


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#94 of 157 Old 09-26-2012, 12:27 PM
 
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I thought "Selective and Delayed" was meant to cover selecting all vaccines and choosing not to delay, so it would be a reasonable choice for the Doctor to discuss here.

 

 I might not have read every single post, but I think the only thing he said he wasn't willing to discuss was anything which implied standard CDC vaccines are experimental or dangerous, because he believes the system works (in general) to produce vaccines which are safety checked. 

whaaa? how is selecting all vaccines and choosing NOT to delay anything but following the schedule ie provax????


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#95 of 157 Old 09-26-2012, 12:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Magali View Post

Dr.  do you have any information on studies that have been done comparing vaccinated people versus unvaccinated people?  I understand that the vaccine would make it less likely for the vaccinated to contract a vpd, but what about overall health?  I can't seem to find any info on that.  Which is weird because vaccines have been proven very, very safe and there must be studies like that...I just am probably not looking in the right places.  I'm  very interested in seeing studies comparing people's health over the course of a lifetime, vaccinated and unvaccinated.  

 

These studies don't exsist. Thats why you or the doctor here won't find them.


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#96 of 157 Old 09-27-2012, 01:08 AM
 
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These studies don't exsist. Thats why you or the doctor here won't find them.

 

Actually we had a thread discussing one a while back: 

 

 

Thread: http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1353634/vaxxed-vs-unvaxxed-study/20

 

Study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3057555/

 

 

The sample size really needs to be larger, but it appears to show there is not be a major difference between vaxxed and unvaxxed kids in terms of the chronic things they looked at (excema, asthma etc), while there is a obviously a detectable difference in the rates of VPDs. So to my mind that one demonstrates that ignoring VPDs unvaxxed kids are not significantly healthier than vaxxed, and including VPDs they are actually less healthy overall. 

 

 

I hope this will be repeated with a larger sample size. It is very important to keep looking for these effects, at the least to reassure parents they don't exist and there is no reason to avoid vaccines (except in rare cases of allergies to ingredients or other medical reasons to avoid them). 


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#97 of 157 Old 09-27-2012, 11:55 AM
 
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Actually we had a thread discussing one a while back: 

 

 

Thread: http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1353634/vaxxed-vs-unvaxxed-study/20

 

Study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3057555/

 

 

The sample size really needs to be larger, but it appears to show there is not be a major difference between vaxxed and unvaxxed kids in terms of the chronic things they looked at (excema, asthma etc), while there is a obviously a detectable difference in the rates of VPDs. So to my mind that one demonstrates that ignoring VPDs unvaxxed kids are not significantly healthier than vaxxed, and including VPDs they are actually less healthy overall. 

 

 

I hope this will be repeated with a larger sample size. It is very important to keep looking for these effects, at the least to reassure parents they don't exist and there is no reason to avoid vaccines (except in rare cases of allergies to ingredients or other medical reasons to avoid them). 

 

That study was so seriously flawed, it's useless:

 

"Children and adolescents were defined as unvaccinated if at the time of the KiGGS survey no documentation existed for any vaccination against diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus, Haemophilus influenzae type b, hepatitis B, poliomyelitis, measles, mumps, or rubella. By contrast, children who had by then received at least one vaccination according to their vaccination card were categorized as vaccinated."

 

In other words, an eight-year-old with, say, ONE vaccination in his life, would be in the same category as a 1-year-old who had received vaccines for diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus, Hib, Hep B, polio, measles, mumps and rubella.  They would both be considered "vaccinated," and their health outcomes (prevalence of thingslike eczema, asthma, and other autoimmune disroders that can be triggered/caused by vaccines) would be lumped together in comparison with unvaccinated children.

 

That's a great way to get the perceived prevalence of such health problems down--add subjects to your group who would obviously have a lower prevalence.

 

Then compare 94 unvaccinated children with 13,359 children who have been given "at least one vaccine," with no stipulation as to the age when that (at least one" vaccine was received, nor how many others were given, how many were given at once, etc.

 

I didn't see any mention of what percentage of the 13,359 received more than one vaccine, nor did I see any mention of those who had been given hep B the day of birth, or those who had been given multiple combo vaccines on the same day. There was also no mention of which vaccines were preserved with thimerosal, or which vaccines contained alumunim.

 

I think I'd like to compare 94 children who have never been fed peanut butter sandwiches with 13,359 children who may have been fed one chicken breast cooked in peanut oil, may have been fed 1 peanut butter sandwich, may have  eaten peanut butter sandwiches every day, or may have had mothers who ate peanuts while pregnant.  We don't know how  many of the officially peanut-exposed children fit into which subgroup.  We also don't know if the 94 children came from mothers who ate peanuts while pregnant, or if they've ever eaten foods cooked in peanut oil.  We just know that they didn't eat peanut butter sandwiches.

 

Think that will give us accurate data on the relationship to peanut allergies and exposure to peanuts?

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#98 of 157 Old 09-28-2012, 08:20 AM
 
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Do I understand correctly that 2 of the researchers had previously worked with vaccine manufacturers?  And is that it for studies of that nature?  Really?  That's all we have?  Is it too much to ask for more research? And if someone isn't comfortable with the information available, is it right to try and force them to vaccinate themselves and their kids?  The research seems to clearly point to it being a fact that vaccines do prevent VPD's.  But do we know at what cost to overall health in the long term, especially with the current schedule that is very different from when I was born in the 70's.  Now we have yearly flu shots, they want us having more boosters etc... I mean, I've been having some back pain this week and I've been taking Ibuprofen.   I haven't been madly searching online for studies comparing people who have never taken painkillers versus people who have.  But no one is trying to strong arm me into to take Ibuprofen, yk?  


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#99 of 157 Old 10-02-2012, 08:22 AM
 
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Everyone here has their own perspective - mine is to accept the science done for generations that has saved countless lives and prevented countless disabilities and move forward. 

 

Even if that "science" done for generations turns out to have been pre-rigged to minimize or hide risks to subgroups who have severe reactions?  Please see www.14studies.org for a detailed explanation of how those studies were severely flawed, and in some cases, downright fraudulent.

 

If you know no one who had polio and is now crippled, great - I do.

 

If you know no one who has had severe, life-changing reactions to vaccines, I do.  Please open your eyes. There have been studies clearly linking vaccines to asthma, diabetes, lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, severe bowel disorders, Guillaine-Barre syndrome, epilepsy, narcolepsy, and other autoimmune disorders, as well as permanent brain damage (over 2000 cases so far admitted and compensated by the US government alone).

 

If you know no one who had meningitis as a child and is now deaf or epileptic, great - I do.

 

Vaccines can also cause deafness and epilepsy.  

 

edited to add: vaccines have also been shown to CAUSE meningitis:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2041668:  Aseptic Meningitis as a Complication of Mumps Vaccine, although in the US, this risk has been ludicrously downplayed.  http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/31/5/978.long

"Conclusions Vaccination with the L-Z strain of mumps vaccine as part of a mass campaign was associated with a significantly increased risk of aseptic meningitis. Decisions about type of mumps vaccine and mumps vaccination strategies must consider vaccine safety issues in addition to other criteria."

http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/165/6/704.full:  "Subsequent epidemiologic studies using laboratory- and hospital-identified cases of aseptic meningitis linked to MMR vaccination records established that the true risk of MMR-associated aseptic meningitis was substantially higher than previously thought..."

 

We can't even begin to compare how many cases of deafness, epilepsy, and meningitis are caused by vaccines because doctors have failed to recognize and report vaccine-caused deafness, epilepsy and meningitis.  But there are certainly far more kids with epilepsy today than there were 40 years ago.

 

If you would like to ignore the science and bring your unvaccinated kids to the countries that still have polio and measles and take your chances, feel free. 

 

So you are recomending that we ignore the science that shows vaccine-induced severe health problems and death?  You haven't mentioned that science, even though there are several peer-reviewed, mainstream science studies showing those outcomes.

 

Everyone here likes to ignore the fact that we live in a country where many infectious disease rates are the lowest in the world BECAUSE OF VACCINES. 

 

You seem to be ignoring the fact that we live in a country where our infant death rates and autoimmune disease rates are the highest in the developed world BECAUSE OF VACCINES.

 

Without the vaccines that you and/or your peers received as children, probably 25% of us would be dead or disabled.  Read your history or ask your parents if they are old enough to remember epidemics of polio.

 

With the vaccines that we and our children have received, a significant percentage of us ARE dead and disabled, from the vaccines.  Read the current case reports.  Ask YOUR parents if they are old enough to remember 15 out of 30 children in a classroom lining up at the nurse's office before lunch for their meds, or if they are old enough to remember 20-25% of any given classroom having severe learning/developmental disabilities.

 

Proclaiming one's kids as vax-free means climbing onto the backs of the 95-99% of people who get vaccines and prevent outbreaks AND SAVE YOU by providing herd immunity.  Until you want to tempt fate and expose your unvaccinated kid to polio or measles in an endemic country, yes, I'll talk about lives saved and disabilities prevented.  "Relative safety" as you term it is exactly what you should care about.  Every action one takes, every day of one's life, involves "relative safety".

 

Herd immunity?  Really?  From vaccines that are 59% effective at best, like the flu shot?  Or the hep B vaccine, which triples the risk of autism when given to infant boys, for a disease for which most children  are not at ANY risk during their first couple of years? (see http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/new-study-hepatitis-b-vac_b_289288.html)  Or the rotavirus vaccine, for which disease most US babies are NOT at risk (spread through contaminated feces), but the vaccine itself is contaminated with not one but 2 pig virues--one of which caused the FDA to suspend a previously similarly contaminated vaccine?  (see http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/rotavirus-vaccines-still-contamined-pig-virus-dna)  

 

None of us who are now refusing vaccines are climbing on anyone's backs for protection from disease, because we are not asking anyone else to vaccinate.  

 

mgrella, you came on this board offering to answer questions, but you have not answered any of the ones involving the "relative safety," as you put it, of vaccines.  Instead, you simply parrot the pharm-taught line, 'I rely on the science done for generations," apparently with absolutely zero awareness of the corrupt nature of what you call "science."

 

Those here who are in the field, or who have friends/relatives in the field, already know what you don't seem to admit: the pharmaceutical industry has been proven over and over and over again to be rife with corruption, lies, and an agenda that involves only money, not improved health. This corruption extends to the education of doctors (see http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/03/business/03medschool.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 and http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2009/jan/15/drug-companies-doctorsa-story-of-corruption/?pagination=false).

 

Next time you think about the way you "rely on science done for generations," ask yourself why 2 virologists for Merck have launched a whistle-blower lawsuit because they were told to lie about the efficacy of the mumps portion of the MMR, and how that is standard operating procedure at Merck.

 

Yep, that's the kind of science you've been relying on.

 

So you go ahead and vaccinate your own children with every single vaccine available, as early as possible.  Don't worry if they develop seizures, asthma, diabetes, severe bowel disorders, arthritis, and/or autism.  The science you've been relying on will be happy to sell you medications for every symptom. And you're taking one for the herd, right?

 

But don't you DARE tell those of us whose children have had severe reactions to vaccines that we should rely on flawed science that was funded by, directed by, interpreted by, and marketed by the very industry that profits from it.  We already did that, and paid a heavy price for allowing our children to be injected with chemicals that harmed them.  We know better now.  One can only hope that others will be spared from the difficulties we've experienced only because we listened to advice like yours the first time around.

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#100 of 157 Old 10-02-2012, 06:10 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Your utter lack of a sense of scale is astounding.  Nothing is 100% safe.  This includes vaccines and cars and planes and crossing the street and eating lettuce and drinking water.  But we all fly and drive and walk and drink water.  Life does not guarantee a soft and fuzzy outcome, because life is inherently risky.  What allows humanity to move forward is to minimize risk with strategies that increase everyone's odds of living longer and healthier.  This is what vaccines do: decrease everyone's risk:benefit ratio.  There is no other math for those in public health.

Your strategy is rather to take case reports and try to generalize them to an entire industry.

Your strategy is to make a few misguided people into a massive conspiracy.

Your strategy is to equate a small percentage of side effects with the risk of massive epidemics. 

 

If we all stopped using measles (or pertussis, or H. flu, or pneumococcal) vaccine today, you would lose family and friends (that is, they would be dead).  And every person who reads your nonsense and defers an important vaccine and whose child gets a preventable illness is being harmed by your influence.

Again, feel free to not not vaccinate your kids - if we all did the same we'd be back to over 2 million deaths per year from measles.

Then there's HiB meningitis. 

Then there's polio (oh, but you AREN'T moving to Pakistan or Afghanistan with your unvaxed kids, are you?).

And did you actually say that our infant death rate is the highest in the world? 

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#101 of 157 Old 10-02-2012, 06:35 PM
 
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Woah there. I believe you need to read this: http://www.mothering.com/community/a/vaccination-forum-guidelines

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mgrella, it's good to see you posting again in this thread. Since you titled this thread "a pediatrician's perspective," I have a pretty simple but important question for you, that I previously asked Sept 11 and Sept 19, but still haven't gotten an answer:

 

 

What would you do if a baby who was a patient of yours cried inconsolably for 5 hours following the standard 2 month vaccines?

 

Would you give the baby the standard vaccines at 4 months? Or would you do something different?

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#103 of 157 Old 10-02-2012, 06:58 PM
 
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From what I understand the US does have the highest infant death rate in the developed world. Id love to find out that it's not true. 


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The US has the highest infant mortality rate in the developed world. That is not anything new...


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#105 of 157 Old 10-02-2012, 07:39 PM
 
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From what I understand the US does have the highest infant death rate in the developed world. Id love to find out that it's not true. 

Taximom said
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You seem to be ignoring the fact that we live in a country where our infant death rathes and autoimmune disease rates are the highest in the world BECAUSE OF VACCINES.

She didn't specify the developed world.
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#106 of 157 Old 10-02-2012, 07:51 PM
 
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Gotcha. I didnt read that wall of text. I just saw the dr.'s comment on it. Thanks :)


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#107 of 157 Old 10-02-2012, 09:43 PM
 
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Your utter lack of a sense of scale is astounding.  Nothing is 100% safe.  This includes vaccines and cars and planes and crossing the street and eating lettuce and drinking water.  But we all fly and drive and walk and drink water.  Life does not guarantee a soft and fuzzy outcome, because life is inherently risky.  What allows humanity to move forward is to minimize risk with strategies that increase everyone's odds of living longer and healthier.  This is what vaccines do: decrease everyone's risk:benefit ratio.  There is no other math for those in public health.
Your strategy is rather to take case reports and try to generalize them to an entire industry.
Your strategy is to make a few misguided people into a massive conspiracy.
Your strategy is to equate a small percentage of side effects with the risk of massive epidemics. 

If we all stopped using measles (or pertussis, or H. flu, or pneumococcal) vaccine today, you would lose family and friends (that is, they would be dead).  And every person who reads your nonsense and defers an important vaccine and whose child gets a preventable illness is being harmed by your influence.
Again, feel free to not not vaccinate your kids - if we all did the same we'd be back to over 2 million deaths per year from measles.
Then there's HiB meningitis. 
Then there's polio (oh, but you AREN'T moving to Pakistan or Afghanistan with your unvaxed kids, are you?).
And did you actually say that our infant death rate is the highest in the world? 
7


Taximom brought up many good points with cited references. Care to comment on each of her specific concerns?

We all know life has risks doctor. No need to patronize us.
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#108 of 157 Old 10-03-2012, 03:30 AM
 
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mgrella, it's good to see you posting again in this thread. Since you titled this thread "a pediatrician's perspective," I have a pretty simple but important question for you, that I previously asked Sept 11 and Sept 19, but still haven't gotten an answer:

 

 

What would you do if a baby who was a patient of yours cried inconsolably for 5 hours following the standard 2 month vaccines?

 

Would you give the baby the standard vaccines at 4 months? Or would you do something different?

 

Since no questions have really been answered, a person can only assume the intent is to patronize those of us who dare to question the issue...

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Taximom said
She didn't specify the developed world.

Thanks--I'll correct that.

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#110 of 157 Old 10-03-2012, 05:59 AM
 
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mgrella, your post crosses the line. Calling another member's post "nonsense" is not respectful. You are free to disagree with others and to passionately express that here; but you must remain civil and respectful and address the issues and not the poster. Review both the user agreement and the forum guidelines if you're unclear about the rules.

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#111 of 157 Old 10-03-2012, 12:03 PM
 
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Your utter lack of a sense of scale is astounding.  Nothing is 100% safe.  This includes vaccines and cars and planes and crossing the street and eating lettuce and drinking water.  But we all fly and drive and walk and drink water.  Life does not guarantee a soft and fuzzy outcome, because life is inherently risky.  What allows humanity to move forward is to minimize risk with strategies that increase everyone's odds of living longer and healthier.  This is what vaccines do: decrease everyone's risk:benefit ratio.  There is no other math for those in public health.

Your strategy is rather to take case reports and try to generalize them to an entire industry.

Your strategy is to make a few misguided people into a massive conspiracy.

Your strategy is to equate a small percentage of side effects with the risk of massive epidemics. 

 

If we all stopped using measles (or pertussis, or H. flu, or pneumococcal) vaccine today, you would lose family and friends (that is, they would be dead).  And every person who reads your nonsense and defers an important vaccine and whose child gets a preventable illness is being harmed by your influence.

Again, feel free to not not vaccinate your kids - if we all did the same we'd be back to over 2 million deaths per year from measles.

Then there's HiB meningitis. 

Then there's polio (oh, but you AREN'T moving to Pakistan or Afghanistan with your unvaxed kids, are you?).

And did you actually say that our infant death rate is the highest in the world? 

 

I'm curious why you titled this thread the way you did.  What about your perspective is a fresh start? 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by emmy526 View Post

 

Since no questions have really been answered, a person can only assume the intent is to patronize those of us who dare to question the issue...

 

I initially started following this thread because I was hoping for a legitimate fresh perspective.  It's so frustrating to want to have discussions about this with healthcare workers and to just keep having the same angry response of downplaying concerns and not being willing to talk about them. 

 

Still waiting on an answer about the 5 hours of crying too...

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#112 of 157 Old 10-03-2012, 12:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by CrunchyChristianMama View Post

 

I'm curious why you titled this thread the way you did.  What about your perspective is a fresh start? 

 

 

I initially started following this thread because I was hoping for a legitimate fresh perspective.  It's so frustrating to want to have discussions about this with healthcare workers and to just keep having the same angry response of downplaying concerns and not being willing to talk about them. 

 

Still waiting on an answer about the 5 hours of crying too...

keep waiting. Please read reviews of this doctor online. It is VERY enlightening and actually makes this whole thread make more sense.

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#113 of 157 Old 10-03-2012, 12:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Marnica View Post

keep waiting. Please read reviews of this doctor online. It is VERY enlightening and actually makes this whole thread make more sense.

Yes, indeed. It was quite eye opening.

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#114 of 157 Old 10-03-2012, 02:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Marnica View Post

keep waiting. Please read reviews of this doctor online. It is VERY enlightening and actually makes this whole thread make more sense.


Interesting indeed.


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#115 of 157 Old 10-03-2012, 02:14 PM
 
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Bummer.  I'm dying to talk research with someone who is open to discussion.


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#116 of 157 Old 10-03-2012, 03:09 PM
 
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Seriously.  You guys have been so warm and welcoming to him!  I can't believe that he lost patience.  After all, it's only required that he have an open mind right?  No one else on the forum should try to return the favor.

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#117 of 157 Old 10-03-2012, 03:26 PM
 
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Seriously.  You guys have been so warm and welcoming to him!  I can't believe that he lost patience.  After all, it's only required that he have an open mind right?  No one else on the forum should try to return the favor.

An open mind to what? New information was never introduced, and a new prospective was never given. It was the same talking points one can hear walking into almost any pediatrician's office. And then, after two weeks, RAGE!!!!!

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#118 of 157 Old 10-03-2012, 03:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by WildKingdom View Post

Seriously.  You guys have been so warm and welcoming to him!  I can't believe that he lost patience.  After all, it's only required that he have an open mind right?  No one else on the forum should try to return the favor.


Well, I didn't say anything previously (just lurked), but for what it's worth I was interested in keeping an open mind.  I'm tired of feeling like a conspiracy theorist, I want to hear answers to why I'm seeing these other things without them simply being swept under the rug as it seems to typically happen...

 

Of course this is not the only area that I feel like this.  Other areas of medicine, health, blah blah blah.  Just... why??  I refuse to believe that it's all part of some big evil plot, I guess.  It just feels suspect when questions are blown off and we're just fed the party line, though.  I want to hear reasonable explanations on why the death rates for, say, polio dropped significantly before the addition of the vaccine, but the vaccine is hailed as the savior, yk? 

 

I also don't believe anything's perfect and so all the "vaccines are perfectly safe" stuff makes me irritated and leaves me feeling talked down to.  I would respect a doctor so much more who talks about risks and benefits, beyond just what the CDC says.  Sorry, I don't think the CDC's perfect, either.  We KNOW the FDA isn't exactly wonderful at screening drugs or things like vioxx never would have happened... so just saying "the system works" makes it very hard to trust the rest of what the person says.

 

**ETA** not that I would think the person was part of some evil plot, just that they're well indoctrinated in the "party line"... just like I was for many years.

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#119 of 157 Old 10-03-2012, 03:48 PM
 
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Flu is made with a dead virus. It can't give anyone flu. It just can't. Not a scientific possibility

 

Flu mist is a live virus, and it can shed, and cause flu like symptoms. 


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#120 of 157 Old 10-03-2012, 04:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MountainMamaGC View Post

 

Flu mist is a live virus, and it can shed, and cause flu like symptoms. 

 

She was responding to this, in post #63:

 

 

 

Quote:
Varicella 1/10,000 deaths in the US. This is considered rare according to US and Canada definitions. Polio is asymptomatic in 95% of cases and the flu shot has recently been found to actually give people the flu.

 

Refuting a specific mention of the flu shot, not flu vaccine.

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