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-   -   Nothing (http://www.mothering.com/forum/373-selective-delayed-vaccination/1366492-nothing.html)

Emaye 10-25-2012 02:33 AM


Nevermind.


Taximom5 10-25-2012 04:47 PM

Basically, this vaccine course is propaganda to sell vaccines. The propaganda is disguised as a "course," and is "taught" by Paul Offit--someone who profited (we're talking million$) from inventing and patenting a vaccine that has been shown to be contaminated with pig viruses. As a member of ACIP, he voted to discontinue a rival vaccine because of such contamination, but insists that his is safe, in spite of the same contamination. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't think someone with such a major conflict of interest should be teaching such a course.

This course polarizes and demeans those who question the safety of vaccines, and the real rate of severe reactions to vaccines is completely glossed over. In fact, severe reactions (like seizures, autoimmune disorders, and brain damage) to vaccines are not even discussed.

Nowhere does this course mention that parents are on their own if the vaccines cause severe harm to their children, and that vaccine manufacturers are completely shielded from liability.

Follow the profits.

Would you trust a course on the benefits of tobacco if it were funded by the tobacco industry, using studies directed by, funded by, and interpreted by that same industry, and taught by a cigarette inventor?

Edited per Mosaic's request

emma1325 10-25-2012 10:22 PM

edited to remove sarcasm.


Mosaic 10-26-2012 05:39 AM

Taximom and emma, your posts are out of line. Edit them or I will delete them for you. From the S&D Vax guidelines:
Quote:
This forum is not a place to argue against selective or delayed vaccination or debate vaccination in general. Such discussions are already hosted in the main Vaccinations forum and posts in that vein are most welcome and appropriate there. Our purpose for this forum is to provide information that is helpful for parents who have made the decision to vaccinate and are not seeking discussion against their decision but rather support and information to help them proceed in the best manner. Please respect this and post at all times with this in mind. Should you have any questions about the appropriateness of your post for this forum feel free to PM the forum moderator.

Emaye 10-26-2012 04:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

Also note the fear-mongering concerning diseases. His vaccine for rotavirus is for a disease spread by feces-contaminated water--hardly an epidemic in developed countries, but the marketing efforts for his vaccine gives statistics from places like Africa, implying that those statistics are relevant in the US, and that US babies need it.
 

 

You know, there are some African mothers on this forum who think the winnings and plights of their continent should count for something.  This bit of nugget from your post is insulting!

 

Also, I posted here to avoid people like you.  

 

I happened on the course while looking for a poetry course on-line.  I thought it would be interesting for some here.  So I posted it.  End of story.  If you are not interested in taking the course, by all means don't.  But don't barge in here and try to lecture.  We have the same research tools as you do, you know?


prosciencemum 10-27-2012 01:08 AM

Emaye - thanks for sharing the link. I've done some of the course before, and I posted summaries of it on the "Research Forum" on this thread: http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1356554/summaries-of-vaccine-course

 

I did find it interested to watch the videos, and in my opinion it was interesting, and Paul Offit came across as a very genuine person spending his time on making this free course available to concerned parents and others. It's an interesting summary of the history of vaccinations, and a chance to hear Paul Offit's views on alternate and delayed schedules. I'm considering signing up again to catch the last few videos I missed due to getting too busy! 

 

I personally think that the groups which present vaccine risks as significant are unfair in their vilification of Paul Offit. Sure he's made some money off of rotavirus vaccine, but that vaccine has also saved lots of lives. And he's dedicated his life to the study of vaccines, so dismissing his opinons on the safety and efficacy of them pro forma (ie. without challenging the science, just saying that because he says it they must be wrong) seems unreasonable to me. 


emmy526 10-27-2012 10:47 AM

here is more insight into dr offit

 

http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/paul-offit-threatens-all-vaccine-exemptions-md-responds1?utm_source=www.GreenMedInfo.com&utm_campaign=5181e635c5-Greenmedinfo&utm_medium=email

 

 

 

Quote:

Millionaire vaccine inventor and mandatory vaccine advocate Paul Offit recently released a short VIDEO for doctors on medscape. Here is a transcript of the speech.This statement that outlines Offit's personal belief system could be a prelude to the legal removal of all philosophical and religious vaccine exemptions in the United States of America. This is something that Offit has been working toward for years, and the likely end-purpose of his series of books.

Paul Offit believes that exempting your child from vaccination is morally reprehensible. He considers himself an authority on autism, all infectious diseases, morality, history, every religious system, and infant immunology. You may also recognize Dr Offit as the one who says that all vaccines are perfectly safe and infants can tolerate theoretically 10,000 of them at once:


prosciencemum 10-29-2012 02:57 AM

And more insight into Paul Offit here too: 

 

http://informedparentsofvaccinatedchildren.wordpress.com/2012/07/01/dr-paul-offit/

 

 

 

Quote:
Dr Paul Offit gets death threats, hate mail, and gets harrassed at conferences by those opposed to vaccination. They are not satisfied with writing about how they hate him. They show up at his talks and yell at him and interrupt him, to the point where he has to hire security and is so frustrated by them he yells at them. I would tell them to “f* off” if they were making my life a living hell, too.  Dr Offit has saved millions of lives with his vaccine and people still feel the need to belittle, harrass, and hate him. Why? Because they disagree with him. They think he is evil because he made some money off the vaccine. [Admin note: Edited for Profanity]

Emaye 10-29-2012 05:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

And more insight into Paul Offit here too: 

 

http://informedparentsofvaccinatedchildren.wordpress.com/2012/07/01/dr-paul-offit/

 

 

 

Prosciencemum, I take my hat off to you.  Boy, you have the energy!  I wonder how many mothering members are like me -- I feel this board is just not worth it and this was my first time ever posting.  Thank you for trying to hold down the fort :) 

 

tiphat.gif


prosciencemum 10-30-2012 05:06 AM

Emaye - thanks. It's probably not good for me, and I have my moments of giving up.


Taximom5 10-30-2012 06:07 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

And more insight into Paul Offit here too: 

http://informedparentsofvaccinatedchildren.wordpress.com/2012/07/01/dr-paul-offit/



Quote:
Dr Paul Offit gets death threats, hate mail, and gets harrassed at conferences by those opposed to vaccination. They are not satisfied with writing about how they hate him. They show up at his talks and yell at him and interrupt him, to the point where he has to hire security and is so frustrated by them he yells at them. I would tell them to “f* off” if they were making my life a living hell, too. Dr Offit has saved millions of lives with his vaccine and people still feel the need to belittle, harrass, and hate him. Why? Because they disagree with him. They think he is evil because he made some money off the vaccine.


Prosciencemum, I take my hat off to you, too.

To post a quote that offers nothing but geralized ad hominem attacks on all who criticize Paul Offit, and to call such attacks "insight on Paul Offit?"

That's truly amazing.

kathymuggle 10-30-2012 07:53 AM

It is perfectly legitimate to offer background details on someone giving a course.

 

I am not overly concern that Offitt made money off vaccines (that is how it works, and he is hardly the only one to profit from vaccines).  I do think the level of nepotism and conflict of interest in his vaccine dealings is too much.  I am concerned with his stance on exemptions - he believes only medical ones should exist. I consider this anti informed consent. Offitt is a hard core pro-vaxxer - he is not someone I would turn to for balanced information in making a decision.  


Mirzam 10-30-2012 08:22 AM

2 Attachment(s)

Kathy, you make very good points. This is the Selective and Delayed forum, so presumably the posters coming here don't just blindly accept the one-size fits all vaccination program that Paul Offit advocates not to mention his radical stance on mandatory vaccination. Paul Offit is an extremist to say the least and people should be aware of this before enrolling for his vaccine course.

 

#CaveatEmptor


Taximom5 10-30-2012 12:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post

Kathy, you make very good points. This is the Selective and Delayed forum, so presumably the posters coming here don't just blindly accept the one-size fits all vaccination program that Paul Offit advocates not to mention his radical stance on mandatory vaccination. Paul Offit is an extremist to say the least and people should be aware of this before enrolling for his vaccine course.

#CaveatEmptor

Seems to me that a thread recommending a "course" that recommends following the recommended vaccination schedule without exemption does not belong in the Selective and Delayed Forum at all.

prosciencemum 10-30-2012 02:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

Seems to me that a thread recommending a "course" that recommends following the recommended vaccination schedule without exemption does not belong in the Selective and Delayed Forum at all.

But "selective and delayed "can legitimately include selecting everything and choosing no delays.

And the course is not only about the schedule, but also about the history and science behind vaccinations, media portrayal of vaccinations and more.

Rrrrrachel 10-30-2012 02:56 PM

This goes way back, but before the rotavirus vaccine virtually every child in the us had rotavirus at some point or another. I'll have to look up the actual stat, but it was the overwhelming majority by like age five, I think. It may not e as deadly as places with less supportive care, but it absolutely was a concern in the us.

Rrrrrachel 10-30-2012 02:58 PM

I took this course last time it was offered. It doesn't demean anyone. It focuses mostly on the history and science of vaccines. It is informative and fairly neutral, actually.

A lot of the information given above about Paul offit is incorrect. I don't have time to go into detail, but hopefully anyone reading will fact check it themselves.

prosciencemum 10-31-2012 01:45 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

This goes way back, but before the rotavirus vaccine virtually every child in the us had rotavirus at some point or another. I'll have to look up the actual stat, but it was the overwhelming majority by like age five, I think. It may not e as deadly as places with less supportive care, but it absolutely was a concern in the us.

 

Actually my daughter had what was most likely rotavirus (in 2007 in the US). We ended up in ER with her needing IV fluids. Not fun - not life threatening because we got her in on time, but something I would have wished to avoid if at all possible. 


emmy526 10-31-2012 03:13 AM

Wouldn't that  be considered following the recommended schedule,  because they selected not to delay anything at all, but follow general vaccine recommendations.  

Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post


But "selective and delayed "can legitimately include selecting everything and choosing no delays.
And the course is not only about the schedule, but also about the history and science behind vaccinations, media portrayal of vaccinations and more.

Rrrrrachel 10-31-2012 04:36 AM

I think you should go back and read the forum description mosaic posted earlier.

Mosaic 10-31-2012 05:03 AM

Yes, S&D includes those who select and time vaccination according to their family's needs, which may include selecting all and not delaying. I understand that this is confusing, and that's one reason why we're in the process of changing the organization of the vax forum. If you can bear with us for a week or two, we are hoping to make some changes to eliminate confusion and clarify what goes where.

kathymuggle 10-31-2012 05:31 AM

Mosaic - I think admin will also need to sort out whether or not people can link or discuss links of things that are outside its UA.  For example, many skeptic blogs and certainly Dr. Offit are in favour of mandatory vaccines - whereas MDC does not wish to host discussions advocating mandatory vaccines.  

 

I also think some of the skeptic sites are very disrespectful of non-vaxxers.  Name calling, belittling, etc.  Is linking to that allowed?  I have no issues if the decision goes both ways - no one is allowed to link to hate-filled sites.  


Taximom5 10-31-2012 08:07 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

But "selective and delayed "can legitimately include selecting everything and choosing no delays.
.

Not in most contexts, including the context of this forum.

Rrrrrachel 10-31-2012 08:14 AM

Taxi, read what mosaic just said. Yes it does.

Mirzam 10-31-2012 08:19 AM

2 Attachment(s)

It seems to me that this forum should be renamed to include those that adhere to the CDC vaccination recommendations (or whatever their country's schedule is), to accurately reflect the posting guidelines, although I must say the reference to S&D vaxing is a little confusing, and reads like an after thought, coming right after the "discussion for parents who have make the decision to vaccinate".

 

 

 

Quote:
The Selective and Delayed Vaccination forum hosts discussion for parents who have made the decision to vaccinate their children (or are making that decision and want information about selective and delayed vaccination) and are seeking the best approach possible. While we will not restrict posting in this forum only to members who have chosen to vaccinate...

 


Mosaic 10-31-2012 08:47 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post

It seems to me that this forum should be renamed to include those that adhere to the CDC vaccination recommendations (or whatever their country's schedule is), to accurately reflect the posting guidelines, although I must say the reference to S&D vaxing is a little confusing, and reads like an after thought, coming right after the "discussion for parents who have make the decision to vaccinate".
Yup, renaming is one of the changes a'coming. smile.gif

WildKingdom 10-31-2012 04:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

Mosaic - I think admin will also need to sort out whether or not people can link or discuss links of things that are outside its UA.  For example, many skeptic blogs and certainly Dr. Offit are in favour of mandatory vaccines - whereas MDC does not wish to host discussions advocating mandatory vaccines.  

 

I also think some of the skeptic sites are very disrespectful of non-vaxxers.  Name calling, belittling, etc.  Is linking to that allowed?  I have no issues if the decision goes both ways - no one is allowed to link to hate-filled sites.  

 

 

Are you serious?  Now you think people shouldn't be able to link to skeptic sites or to anything by Dr. Offit?  Way to stack the deck in your favor.  

 

There's a helluva difference between linking to a skeptic site that is disrespectful of anti-vaxers and a true hate site like whale.to that preaches anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial.

 

Seriously, don't even try equate the two.  That's ridiculous.  

 

If you don't want anyone's feelings to be hurt, then stay off the internet.  Seriously, I read plenty of hate-filled, disrespectful stuff on gaia health and natural news.  


Rrrrrachel 10-31-2012 04:24 PM

That would mean no CDC links, no who links, a whole bunch of stuff from pubmed would be off the table . . .

Why is there suddenly all this fear of information?

kathymuggle 10-31-2012 06:04 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by WildKingdom View Post

 

 

Are you serious?

 

I put the thought out for Mosaic to consider. I am not "calling for it."  MDC can decide.

 

I do think linking (and particularly discussing) sites that are against the UA might be questionable.  There is a line around censorship and "conversations MDC does not wish to discuss" that MDC gets to skate.

 

This isn't just a vaccine issue - do we post links to pro-formula sites?  Do we discuss them?  If those sites bash breastfeeders is that Ok - or not?


Rrrrrachel 10-31-2012 06:07 PM

You realize that would mean you wouldn't be able to link to sites that called vaccines dangerous or advocate not vaccinating.


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