Trip to ER has me doubting again - Mothering Forums

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Old 09-18-2013, 05:04 PM - Thread Starter
 
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"You're putting your child at serious risk of being harmed by disease. And there are no studies that I know of that show that vaccines are harmful. And the doctors who have spread rumours about them being harmful have been discredited and had their licenses stripped." Says the ER doctor to me in a very nice way.

DS got hurt but the wound is superficial so we're all good but we had to make that trip to the ER and the doc did ask if he's all caught up on his shots at which point I told him he'd had none.

I always come here after an episode at the hospital because I'm always questioning myself when I leave. Am I making the right decision? Am I putting my child in harms way? Should I consider selective.

Ugh! No questions I guess. Just don't have many ppl IRL who would have this conversation with me. I hate not being sure about my decision.
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Old 09-18-2013, 05:58 PM
 
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I think almost all ER non-vaccinating or delayed vaccinating lectures/scoldings are like that (or worse). If you want to avoid it in the future, tell them he is "up to date." Which he is, on your schedule. The doctor just said the generic things. I don't know why you are questioning yourself after that. It's nothing you haven't heard or read before, I'm sure.

 

Anyway, :Hug 

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Old 09-18-2013, 07:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Ma2two, no it's not anything I haven't heard before. It's just difficult hearing the same things from the professionals over and over. And I'm just in an uncertain place right now (new job, solo parenting, kids in daycare and no longer home with me, in between homes) it's just a lot right now and getting the call from the daycare was scary.

I guess I know some vaccines are completely not even a possibility for me, and then there are others where I'm still not sure and I, quite frankly, don't have the time to do what I need to do to be confident in doing no vaccinations. But still unable to follow through with any shots for the same reason.
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Old 09-18-2013, 08:22 PM
 
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If you're not sure of your decision, then you've probably come to the right place! Lots of moms are looking into vaccines and deciding to do it. Maybe you might feel more comfortable vaccinating, or at least doing a few of the more serious diseases if they are worrying you.

 

I don't know where you're at. Do you have other children who have reacted badly to shots, or another reason why they are worrying you? What made you choose to abstain from vaccinations?

 

It's not a bad idea to look into things if something isn't quite feeling right to you.

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Old 09-18-2013, 08:44 PM
 
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I think many of us are vulnerable after a doctor/hospital visit.

 

No one likes to be lectured, or told they are doing the wrong thing by someone who they (on some level) probably look up to.  

 

Vaccine decisions should be made when you are not feeling vulnerable - not in the day or two after a doctors/hospital appointment.


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Old 09-18-2013, 09:39 PM
 
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I agree with what kathy said. I wouldn't make any decisions based on a lecture/rant by an ER doctor.

 

We've had nothing but threats and hostility the few times we've been to the ER. Whereas our family GP is willing to discuss different approaches to vaccination and hear us out, we've had an ER doctor storm off saying he was going to complain to our family GP about our kids' lack of vaccinations and he also told us that our kids would never be able to attend school anywhere in the state (which was a lie as we'd enrolled them in three schools over the years with no issues). 

 

Take the time you need to reflect and decide what's best for you and your family and don't let that old ER doc attitude get to you. 


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Old 09-18-2013, 09:55 PM
 
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But it doesn't seem like he had attitude. Thispathisme said he was "nice".

 

This is the sel/del forum, so we are supportive of checking out vaccines one by one here, and even supportive of those who choose to give them. Right now, I just want to be supportive of Thispathisme's state of mind. If you're getting conflicting information and it's leaving you to question things, Thispathisme, there's nothing wrong with considering your options again. Perhaps you'd end up feeling more comfortable giving a few vaccines, perhaps not.

 

This isn't a religion, where you have to resist thought-crime and temptation. This is just medicine. So... it's ok to weigh different opinions and change your mind if you need to. That's all.

 

I've heard Dr. Sears' The Vaccine Book is pretty informative? Do people recommend him? I bet just having some more information would give you some peace of mind.

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Old 09-18-2013, 09:58 PM
 
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Agree, ER is not the place to make big decisions.  I barely had time and presence to make decisions on IV, anti-nausea medication and a blood test for sepsis.  No, you should not be making decisions based on how you feel at the ER.  Felt unsure about everything, including the stuff I was sure about!

 

So, let this decision be between you and you and your dp and you and maybe your family practitioner, but not the ER doc.  Or grandma, or the neighbor, or me or anyone else.  


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Old 09-19-2013, 04:50 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks everyone. Yes, I was feeling super vulnerable and overtired and stressed. My decision to not have my DCs vaccinated comes down to not feeling well-informed enough to make the decision that can't be reversed and having a general mistrust/uncertainty with the medical community in terms of immunizations.
It is a decision I need to keep marinating on but I'm so thankful to be able to come here and chat with folks in the same boat. Trips to the ER and times when the kids are not well is when I am less comfortable with them being vaccine-free.
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Old 09-19-2013, 06:39 AM
 
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But it doesn't seem like he had attitude. Thispathisme said he was "nice".

 

"Nice"  is  irrelevent to whether or not she should vaccinate. 

 

This is the sel/del forum, so we are supportive of checking out vaccines one by one here, and even supportive of those who choose to give them. 

Yes - it is.  This is the board to discuss selecting or delaying vaccines.  No one here has said she should not vaccinate - they have said she should wait and make a decision from a place of strength and knowledge - not after a hospital visit.  

 

 

I've heard Dr. Sears' The Vaccine Book is pretty informative? Do people recommend him? I bet just having some more information would give you some peace of mind.

 

I like it.  I think it could be  a great resource for those on this subforum.  


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Old 09-19-2013, 06:56 AM
 
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I guess I know some vaccines are completely not even a possibility for me, and then there are others where I'm still not sure and I, quite frankly, don't have the time to do what I need to do to be confident in doing no vaccinations. But still unable to follow through with any shots for the same reason.

 

I get this. Not everyone has the time or inclination to research the hell out of vaccines.  I do think all parents should have a baseline knowledge of vaccines and diseases - but if you have baseline knowledge and can't figure out what to do and have no desire to explore further…where does that leave you?

 

For me, it falls back on defaults.    My default leans towards the non-invasive.  I can see some folks snickering (lol) and thinking "natural fallacy!" but it is what it is.  I tend towards the natural and non-invasive first in all things medical (not only vaccines) - and only deviate from it if a solid case can be made that it will benefit my family.  

 

Other people may have different defaults - their default may be to follow the advice of an authority figure when they are unsure.  That is okay, too, we all have different defaults, I think.


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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Old 09-19-2013, 07:59 AM
 
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As to the doctor being "nice"--I know that wasn't relevant to her medical decisions, of course! I was just responding to those who said he was lecturing, or ranting. It doesn't appear he was. Not all doctors are jerks.
 

It doesn't have to do with what Kathy calls "defaults" for me. My default is non-invasive, also. That is why I so strongly oppose circumcision, for instance. I generally take a wait-and-see approach with almost everything. I never had any of my wisdom teeth removed, for instance. When I was 20 or so, all four of them were impacted, but there was no infection or current danger, so I opted to leave them in. Now, ten years later, to my dentist's total shock, three of them found room in my mouth and actually straightened out! One is still stuck and will likely always be stuck. But again--right now it's not infected. I don't have cavities. So why don't I just leave it and see what happens?

 

I don't think doing vaccines has been a contradiction of my inclination to be non-invasive. To me, the risk of vaccines are so low, and the benefits so high, that they are worth doing. Nothing about vaccines are that invasive. A needle is small and easily healed from. Weakened germs are injected into your bloodstream, but we are in contact with germs all day, every day, and making antibodies for them is a routine for the body, so it is not too much to ask your body to add a few antibodies more. Vaccines do contain trace chemicals and other substances, also, but again, we come into contact with trace chemicals all the time, in our drinking water, in our meat, all the time--in much larger quantities than there are in vaccines.

 

So all in all, I don't view vaccines as a violent assault on the body. What is invasive are the diseases they are helping to protect you from. I think specifically of polio, because my mother had polio and it ravaged and attacked her whole body, severing nerve connections and preventing her from being able to walk. Polio is pretty damn invasive. But even other diseases, like HPV, which only cause warts (and then later maybe cancer, but you don't know) I'd just rather not get, and am happy to have some help fighting them.

 

In my tooth example, I get some warning time before anything goes wrong. If there are tooth problems that need to be dealt with, I'll get an infection, a toothache. Maybe my gums will hurt or I'll have more trouble than usual flossing. There are things to look out for, so waiting and seeing makes sense. But with viruses, they attack without warning.

 

The only reason why I'm typing all this personal stuff is just so I can show that people who are cautious medically--like me, like kathymuggle, and like many people on here--can still decide to vaccinate and it doesn't take away their rebel card.

 

Thispathisme definitely seems like she might want to get some more information about vaccines so she doesn't feel so worried whenever she goes to a hospital. Maybe she'll end up giving some of them to her kid; maybe not.

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Old 09-19-2013, 08:08 AM
 
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Michelle, I think you've stumbled into the wrong forum.

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Old 09-19-2013, 08:34 AM
 
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The problem that I see with your explanation, Michelle, is that there is a big difference between contacting diseases and/or chemicals "in the wild" and having them come up against our natural defenses, and bypassing those defenses to inject these things directly into the bloodstream.

That said, I'm not 100% anti-vax, though my oldest daughter has not (yet?) received any vaccinations. I definitely understand the doubt and vulnerability that an ER visit can elicit--we had 2 er visits for croupe with my eldest, and the lectures we received about vaccines definitely left us feeling shaken and unsure. But i fully agree that the vulnerability of an ER visit should not be the place from which we make any of our decisions.

It can seem an overwhelming, daunting task to better inform yourself about vaccines and the diseases they are meant to prevent. I agree that The Vaccine Book is an excellent place to start smile.gif

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Old 09-19-2013, 08:36 AM
 
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Really? I have tried to be supportive of how the OP was feeling (uncertain) and be supportive of her looking into things and vaccinating or not, which is of think is the point of sel/del, right? Looking into things and maybe choosing some vaccines, maybe not?

I want her to know that it is ok to choose to vaccinate (whether selectively or not), that other conscientious parents have done it, and that if she is feeling uncertain, it's good to get more info than she has. Isn't that sort of in the spirit of this forum and thread?

If this were the "I'm not Vaccinating" forum, we'd want only "Stay strong, ignore everything you hear those ER jerks say!" responses. But this mom came in saying she wasn't sure and it was ok to hear some different perspectives. Right?
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Old 09-19-2013, 08:42 AM
 
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Michelle - I have always thought people can be crunchy and naturally inclined and still choose to vax.

 

If I have ever said anything else, well, it was either the heat of a moment type statement or I have changed my mind.

 

You have probably researched vaccines very heavily.  Correct? You have come to a conclusion to vaccinate.  That is fine.

 

I have also researched vaccine very heavily.  I have decided not to vaccinate.  That is also fine.  I am not 100% convinced I am right, btw, but I am 100% convinved I do not have, nor can I get, enough info to be comfortable vaxxing.  My darn crystal ball is broken.  

 

Thispathisme  has said she does not have the time to go into deep research mode.  She is different that you (I assume) and I in this regard - but she still has a decision to make on vaccines.

 

That is where the talk of defaults come in.  If you did not have the time or inclination to research vaccines, or your research was inconclusive, what would you do?  How would you come to a decision?  What would you do before you had come to that decision?


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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Old 09-19-2013, 09:11 AM
 
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I guess if I didn't know much about vaccines, and I hadn't vaccinated yet because I didn't feel like I knew enough about them, then I'd act very similarly to Thispathisme, of course! I would be swayed or disturbed by a visit to a doctor who kindly explained some things to me that I didn't know. I might even post on an internet forum I trusted, hoping to have a conversation about it with other moms. 

 

Even if we don't have time to look things up ourselves, sometimes information has a way of finding us. Information found Thispathisme when she questioned vaccines; the vaccine skeptic movement found her, at least a little. And information came later in other ways, for instance, by doctors giving her information that they've learned through their years of medical study. Information--or at least different opinions--will come to her as she reads responses to her post.

 

It's really hard to sort through all that information, but maybe she'll be in a place sometime where she wants to start sorting it out. She wondered in her first post whether she should be considering selective vaccines. Well, yes, she should, and perhaps one day she will have time to consider them. Maybe it'll be soon, because she doesn't like feeling so undecided. Or maybe looking at everything will have to be put off until later.

 

When she does think about it, I think it will have been good if she's heard at least a little from the pro-vaccination side. We do have valid arguments in favour of vaccinating that are worth looking at if she gets to a place where she is looking at reasons to do it or not. Also, doctors are not a terrible resource, either. YMMV with doctors, but many of them have relevant training.

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Old 09-19-2013, 09:26 AM
 
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This is the sel/del forum, so we are supportive of checking out vaccines one by one here, and even supportive of those who choose to give them. Right now, I just want to be supportive of Thispathisme's state of mind. If you're getting conflicting information and it's leaving you to question things, Thispathisme, there's nothing wrong with considering your options again. Perhaps you'd end up feeling more comfortable giving a few vaccines, perhaps not.

 

I've heard Dr. Sears' The Vaccine Book is pretty informative? Do people recommend him? I bet just having some more information would give you some peace of mind.

Yes, supportive of those who choose vaccines, and those who are suspicious of them for any reason and choose to forgo some or even most (or eventually all).  Also, those of us who have changed our minds but won't throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak.

 

I think Dr. Sears' book is excellent for the sel/del perspective.  I like that he comes from a vax-supportive stance, but is totally non-judgmental about parents choosing to forgo some or all vaxxes.  The book really give you a sense of personal power to make decisions and feel comfortable about them.  It might make you feel better about vaxxing, it might remind you of the reasons you've chosen to not vax in the first place.


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Old 09-19-2013, 11:00 AM
 
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The idea here, Michelle, is that you pick your subforum and more or less stick to it. As the current ringleader of the vax on schedule forum, it's not appropriate for you up actively post persuasive arguments in sel/del.

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Old 09-19-2013, 11:35 AM
 
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When my DS was 18 months old he stepped into a fire pit that was not properly extinguished. He went to the ER. It was a terrifying experience!! Unfortunately, the doc was not "nice". He was a jerk and tried to belittle us for choosing not to vax him for tetanus right then. But... He told me the main thing we needed to watch out for was him developing an infection from his burns... So, how could I tell the difference between a fever from an infection and a fever from the DTAP shot? Because they didn't have a single shot for tetanus. And I have never read anything about someone getting tetanus from a burn. It was all very stressful but in the end I stuck to my guns. I was not going to stress DS's body any more than it already was stressed.

I like everyone's advice about not making a decision about vaccines in an emergency. I know it is so hard, though. If I were you I would get the Dr. Sears book and read through it. It is such a simple read and can put your mind at ease. At least that's what it did for me.

And I'm sure many would disagree with me on this, but when all else fails, go with your gut.

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Old 09-19-2013, 11:41 AM
 
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OP, I know how you feel. I too recommend the Doctor Sears book as overview and introduction. I was never lectured, but I got raised eyebrows and snippy comments from nurses and one resident (not counting the military doctors, they were awful, but they never succeeded in making me doubt myself, instead I knew right away those guys couldn't care less about my child's health, only about their ego and power trip). THe more I researched and learned, the better I felt. For me age was a huge factor. Apart from a serious outbreak of something I consider dangerous enough (e.g. a chickenpox outbreak wouldn't phase me), I would have considered to vaccinate below 24 months. But otherwise no. That's the big thing we concluded. The next step was which diseases do we want to vax for, at what interval and what brand and how many doses. We e.g. choose way less doses than "required". The kids had one MMR and excellent titers. A 2nd MMR would have unnecessarily burdened their systems. 

After Dr. Sears I recommend to google the package inserts of the vaccines you are considering. Read up on their efficacy and titer levels after 1/2/3eg doses. You'll be amazed how little doses it takes for most people.

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Old 09-19-2013, 11:42 AM
 
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Well then, I am kind of naughty too!  I am more non-vax than selective/delayed although I have a lot of respect for the selective delayed position.  

 

I don't know - sel/delayed is a weird forum, as it is open to hearing both POVs. I am not sure it should go so far as suggesting someone vax or not vax though.  

 

Maybe flag it (you can flag mine if you like) and see if the mods tell us to get back to our home forums?  There are not a huge number of active posters on MDC, so conversation will shrivel up and die if we have to stay away.

 

For myself, I am going to try and stay off vaccination on schedule as I have no business there, but sel/del feels a bit more open to non-inflammatory, non-bickerring info from various POV's.

 

 

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The idea here, Michelle, is that you pick your subforum and more or less stick to it. As the current ringleader of the vax on schedule forum, it's not appropriate for you up actively post persuasive arguments in sel/del.

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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Old 09-19-2013, 11:50 AM
 
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ER's are a nightmare situation all the way around.  I personally would try to brush off the ER doctors lecture and if you are still uncertain talk to your children's ped or family doctor.  I would take their suggestions about the risks the specific child they have a relationship with over an ER doctor who sounds like he/she was just going through protocol and giving a canned speech.

 

I personally would avoid telling a doctor treating your child the child was "up to date" as in your own schedule which is none.  Saying they are up to date will make the doctor thing vaccinated on schedule.  That may end the conversation but it might also mean that they miss something regarding the care for the child because they are operating on a false pretense. JMHO.

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Old 09-19-2013, 12:17 PM
 
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The idea here, Michelle, is that you pick your subforum and more or less stick to it. As the current ringleader of the vax on schedule forum, it's not appropriate for you up actively post persuasive arguments in sel/del.

 

I have been checking Sel/Del and Vaccinating on Schedule subforums both with sincere interest and without any intent to break the forum rules or make a nuisance of myself. When the forums changed, this was the guideline posted: "Posts to these forums should be out of sincere interest for the forum's support topic and not to argue or debate, nor to criticize, make fun of, or make negative generalizations about others.I think I have done this. I am reading the threads in both forums; when I do post, I am trying to do so in the spirit of support, research, and individual choice. I post mainly in "Vaccinating on Schedule" because it is in there where my perspective can be most often supportive.

 

I thought the main point was for people to have forums where they can explore ideas genuinely without feeling attacked. Up until recently, people who vaccinated on schedule and people who selected or delayed all posted together on one subforum--and we do have enough things in common to be able to support each other. There are also people on this thread who do not vaccinate at all, and who participate in the "I'm not Vaccinating" forum, like Kathymuggle, who I think has posted on this thread and in the sel/del section because she is happy to discuss--in a non-debating manner--the merits or drawbacks of particular vaccines. I never thought that Kathymuggle should absent herself because she also posts in "I'm Not Vaccinating". As far as I could read, she was also being supportive and posting helpful information from her perspective.

 

I can sincerely relate to feeling undecided because I didn't have enough research at my fingertips. People used to ask me how I felt about marijuana. I don't smoke it and don't really have an interest in it. I also hadn't looked at the issues enough to know whether I felt it should be legal or not. I felt silly saying that I didn't know, and people (on both sides of the issue) would get mad at me, like I had taken the opposite view from them, even though I was saying I didn't know. It's ok to say you're not sure yet. After reading lots of different opinions on the subject, I finally felt like I had some knowledge base to have an opinion about marijuana. It sort of sounded like the OP was also coming from this place of uncertainty, and could use some different perspectives to sort of mull over. That's why I posted.

 

In any case, the main thing is that the OP, who currently does not vaccinate at all, posted on the Sel/Del forum, saying: "Should I consider selective?" Likely most of the posters in the Sel/Del forum are going to be supportive of the whole Sel/Del thing--I thought that was the point--so my answer to her is: yes, you should consider it, and here is my perspective on why.

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Old 09-19-2013, 12:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

 

I don't know - sel/delayed is a weird forum, as it is open to hearing both POVs. I am not sure it should go so far as suggesting someone vax or not vax though.  

 

For myself, I am going to try and stay off vaccination on schedule as I have no business there, but sel/del feels a bit more open to non-inflammatory, non-bickerring info from various POV's.

 

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Originally Posted by Jennyanydots View Post

The idea here, Michelle, is that you pick your subforum and more or less stick to it. As the current ringleader of the vax on schedule forum, it's not appropriate for you up actively post persuasive arguments in sel/del.

Since sel/del encompasses those who just stretch out the full schedule and others who pick and choose and others who are practically non-vax, what I would like to see on this forum  is for posters who "belong" on other forums but might have some good information and encouragement to offer is to show your biases clearly.  That's what I did by putting my homeschooling quote on my signature.  It keeps me totally honest and transparent, even when I post ever so occasionally on the Learning at School forum and threads pertaining to learning.  If it's not in your signature, perhaps those feeling helpful (I love helpful people from every viewpoint, personally) is to say "Hey, we vax on schedule, and here's the information I find encouraging", or "Non-vaxxer here, but I hope you can use my experiences to help you make your decision with confidence."  

 

Some of us who have lurked for a while know who everyone is and where they "belong", but others don't.  Show your cards, and please, share the good information you have.  Being "in the middle" here myself, I think we sel/del folks might need and welcome that info and advice more than others.


"Let me see you stripped down to the bone. Let me hear you speaking just for me."
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Old 09-19-2013, 01:08 PM
 
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Well, I'm not a signature kind of person, but saying, "We vaccinate on schedule, but here's some stuff I like," would be fine. I sort of thought that was what I was saying, but that first explicit sentence is a good thought.

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Old 09-19-2013, 01:11 PM
 
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I personally would avoid telling a doctor treating your child the child was "up to date" as in your own schedule which is none.  Saying they are up to date will make the doctor thing vaccinated on schedule.  That may end the conversation but it might also mean that they miss something regarding the care for the child because they are operating on a false pretense. JMHO.

 

From what I've read of others' experiences, once a medical professional at the ER hears that the child is not up to date on vaccines, that's what they latch onto, sometimes obsessively, and lose sight of the immediate problem at hand. I think the doctor or nurse being distracted by that is a lot more dangerous than possibly missing a diagnosis of a vaccine available disease. Most people know vaccines aren't 100% effective. If the parent truly suspects the child's problem is related to a vaccine available disease, the parent could either tell the doctor the child hasn't gotten all doses of that specific vaccine, or the parent could remind the doctor that vaccines aren't 100% effective, and ask if the doctor has any reason to suspect that as a possible diagnosis.

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Old 09-19-2013, 01:21 PM
 
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I often do let people know I am non-vax, but sometimes I forget.  A siggy is a good idea.


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

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Old 09-19-2013, 01:35 PM
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The guidelines state:

 

Support Forums

The I'm Not Vaccinating, Selective & Delayed Vaccination and the Vaccinating on Schedule forums are for support only. Members should determine which forum best suits their needs and post to that forum to get and share information. These forums do not host discussions that denigrate, insult or otherwise negatively generalize about the vaccination advocacy or practice of others. 

 

So yes, you should choose which support forum best suits you as an individual to post to based on your personal practices and beliefs and the support forums purpose aligning with your practices and beliefs and stay with that forum. 


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Old 09-19-2013, 10:31 PM
 
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"
I have also researched vaccine very heavily.  I have decided not to vaccinate.  That is also fine.  I am not 100% convinced I am right, btw, but I am 100% convinved I do not have, nor can I get, enough info to be comfortable vaxxing.  My darn crystal ball is broken.

Brilliantly said. And I concur. smile.gif
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