I want to start selectively vaxing my 5 year old. - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 56 Old 11-26-2006, 05:48 AM
 
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The first three doses of are the primary doses and anything after that are boosters.
Let me correct that. I was just reading the Pink Book --- three doses are no longer primary. Now the first four doses are considered primary doses.
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#32 of 56 Old 11-26-2006, 07:28 AM
 
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I would like some "protection" against Pertussis. It's the only disease that there's a vaccine for that actually worries me. My kid is about to enter a large public school next year.

<snip>

I have given my daughter one vaccine, and that was Tetanus. We live in Maine. It's too possible that she'll be barefoot and get a puncture wound. And the treatment for that is --a tetanus shot. One that is worse (tocicity-wise) than the vaccine. So I got her the vaccine.


I have to find out how the chickenpox thing works. At what point does chickenpox start becoming more dangerous? That's when I'd want to get her vaccinated, if she's not naturally immune.

<snip>
Hi there,

I've yet to even introduce myself to this board, as I've been so sick since I signed-up, but looked up pertussis on here and wanted to add a site I found today: http://www.whoopingcough.net/prevent...munization.htm That page is for "Prevention/Immunization," but there are sub-links and other related information on the site. (I hope I am quoting and posting properly here?)

I am forty years old, and I think I have pertussis! I've been coughing terribly for some time now. There was a terrible virus that went around here recently. My son and husband recovered in a reasonable amount of time with only Mullein Ear Drops (garlic) and a lot of TLC. I, however, have not done so well.

My son (18 months) was due for his well baby visit on Tuesday at which time I believe he would have had his final pertussis vaccination. I was so sick I had to cancel his visit. He did react differently (excessive crying) to his first dose of the vaccine, but I did not then realize the inherent dangers with the vaccine. Our doctor is mostly holistic and does give what would be considered "safer" vaccines. But, my recent illness has made me feel pretty strongly about finishing this course of vaccination.

Here I'll just paste in a post I made on my local Mommy's Groups board to explain what is going on for me (hope it's not too much information):

Quote:
Have any of you heard anything about whooping cough (i.e. pertussis) in Savannah? I have been SO sick and can't quit coughing. It's been horrible, something I've never had before despite years of allergy and sinus problems. On my birthday I went to my doctor who did a chest X-ray and said that I did not have pneumonia, but he would treat me for asthma. He mentioned a nebulizer (I asked [one of the other mothers] and she said that's what [her son] used), but he never gave it to me. Instead he put me on tons of meds: Avelox (antibiotic), guaifenex (decongestant with expectorant), Prednisone (steroid), Hyphed (cough syrup with antihistamine, narcotic, decongestant), Albuterol ("rescue" inhaler) and Advair (preventative steroid inhaler).

He warned me that the Advair has been known to cause death in some users, and that I should not use it more than the twice a day prescribed, as it is not a "rescue" inhaler like the Albuterol. That was Tuesday. I went to the ER this morning as I woke gasping for air and coughing and just couldn't take it anymore. Like my doctor, they took an X-ray, as well. The ER doctor said is it likely that my anxiety over my "asthma" has aggravated the condition. He gave me a Xanax and sent me home. It has not worked.

I told him that at the moment (by the time we got there) I was "okay," but repeatedly have horrible coughing spells to the point of vomiting and complete loss of bladder control. (Yes, for my fortieth birthday I bought myself a nice pack of Poise pads. This is way worse than pregnancy.) And, yes, I am very stressed about it because I can't function, not to mention that I've frequently thrown-up my medication, which means it can't work, but I'm too scared to take another dose. And, I kept asking about this feeling in my throat and chest of breathing in fumes, like the newspaper, which does cause that reaction in me. (I even mentioned to the second nurse that I her perfume was really strong for me, and she said that she wasn’t wearing any; just soap and lotion.)

So, I spent the day in bed. I just came downstairs and check my E-mail and such. I saw on the CNN main page that whooping cough is now becoming an epidemic in Winnetka, Illinois, the Chicago suburb of "Risky Business" fame. I've looked a little online to see about our area, but don't see anything, although there are reports of it occurring in North Carolina. [Since this post I've seen another report of a case in South Carolina.] Most reporting I’ve seen has been from past years. In any case, I found a web site which describes EXACTLY what I've been experiencing, right down the fact that it's so hard to diagnose, because often the patient doesn't have the spasms while in the office. But, all the other parts about the attacks ending with vomiting are just like what I'm having. And, my cough sounds just like the recordings I’ve listened to online.

At this point, I would no longer be contagious, but still symptomatic. They could not do the simple swab test for me, but perhaps a blood test would show the antibodies. Actually, there isn't much to do for it, but everyone who wrote on the site about their experiences with their children or themselves (vaccine can wear off by my age) mentioned the relief they felt at knowing what they had and that it would eventually end. Also, they mentioned that bronchodilators, like I have, really do not work for whooping cough, but possibly the non-steroidal asthma medication Singulair would work. The steroids really raise my blood sugar, and my blood pressure is up again, as well. I spend my entire days coughing, vomiting and pissing myself. Gee, wonder why I might be anxious? I just can not take it, and while I do understand that anxiety can aggravate any medical condition, it just doesn’t explain all of my symptoms. Anyone heard anything about this in our area? It would be such a relief to know what’s wrong and to get the proper treatment if all that I’m doing will not work for what I have. I am just so exhausted...
So, I've now sent an inquiry to the Centers for Disease Control for information regarding reporting of this illness in our area and in the area of Arizona we visited this summer. I have also done some searching online and found that pertussis is making a "comeback" in older adults. Adults over fifty probably never had the vaccine, and adults my age are probably no longer immune. Here is a link to an article from "The New York Times" about adults and pertussis (February 2005): http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/22/he...0e48b2&ei=5070

I would feel terrible if my son had this illness! It is horrible! I've read about adults and children breaking ribs from the force of the cough, which is making my loss of bladder control seem like a minor inconvenience at this point. I had been told I should get a tetanus booster several years ago, but opted not to do so as I'd heard that I'd probably have to have a tetanus shot anyway if injured. However, I will consider a booster for pertussis for myself if it's indicated as I can not go through this again.

I am going to my doctor's clinic tomorrow. While I can no longer be diagnosed by a simple swab test at this point I do intend to ask for the blood test; although it's not entirely conclusive either. The doctor on call today said it sounds like I might have strep (which I thought at the onset of my illness, but my son did not have, so I thought I didn't either) or the flu. Oh, please?! This is not the flu! He sounded just like the doctors described in the site I listed above and others I read today. It's very easy to misdiagnose this illness as the patient does not always present with the symptoms in the office and not all patients have the characteristic "whooping."

I just wanted to pass on what I've found, for whatever it's worth. And, see if anyone had any similar experiences as an adult or with misdiagnoses in either their children or adults? I hope what I've posted can be helpful for those of you making your decision regarding immunization, and in recognizing the symptoms in case you or your families do acquire this illness.

So, regarding the quotes above about tetanus and chicken pox: As I mentioned, I opted out of the tetanus booster as I was told I'd still probably need a tetanus shot if actually injured. Don't know the validity of this statement, but definitely something to consider. And, the chicken pox? That was a typical rite-of-passage in my childhood. Until recently, I did not even know a vaccine existed for CP! I have read about women having CP parties where when one child gets it they all get together with their children so they can all get it over with at the same time. I do remember I had only one friend who'd had it (older siblings) who could visit me at the time. But, everyone had it. You just took oatmeal baths and tried not to scratch. That was it; no big deal. I do recall a friend's father having it and being told that it was dangerous in adults; I think he was hospitalized. As someone posted here, it could be that other factors are involved with adults. Otherwise, really it seemed such a minor problem in society as most everyone had it as a child. (Got some special new jammies for the "occasion" as well! )

I'd really appreciate any feedback anyone can give me on this issue. Should I have made this post in another thread? Or cross-post? I'm not yet sure of the the procedures on Mothering.com.

Thanks so much... Imvishta
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#33 of 56 Old 11-26-2006, 11:00 AM
 
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Hi, Imvishta! Welcome!

Yeah, if you want to talk about pertussis in adults, you might want to start a new thread. It's an interesting subject, and deserves it's own discussion.
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#34 of 56 Old 11-26-2006, 11:08 AM
 
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Hi, Imvishta! Welcome!

Yeah, if you want to talk about pertussis in adults, you might want to start a new thread. It's an interesting subject, and deserves it's own discussion.



Oh definitely . . . and we'll tell you all about the "comeback" that isn't really a comeback.
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#35 of 56 Old 11-26-2006, 01:59 PM
 
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Hi, Imvishta! Welcome!

Yeah, if you want to talk about pertussis in adults, you might want to start a new thread. It's an interesting subject, and deserves it's own discussion.
Thanks. Where should I post the thread?
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#36 of 56 Old 11-26-2006, 02:04 PM
 
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Probably in the main vaccination forum here:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...splay.php?f=47
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#37 of 56 Old 11-26-2006, 05:38 PM
 
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If I'm not mistaken, polio still exists right here in the US - right?
No, polio does not still exist in the US.
http://www.cdc.gov/Nip/diseases/polio/faqs.htm
http://www.emro.who.int/polio/
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#38 of 56 Old 11-26-2006, 05:42 PM
 
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from what I've read, yes, but i think its more in the newborns/toddler thing than a 5yr old. Its linked to SIDS and other things.
It'd be great if when you make a statement like "it's linked to SIDS" you could include a reference/link/information. Thanks!
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#39 of 56 Old 11-26-2006, 06:09 PM
 
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Hi, I am a litle confused- wasn't there an outbreak of polio among the Amish in pennsylvania last year?
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#40 of 56 Old 11-26-2006, 06:13 PM
 
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not according to the CDC, and if its not documented there, then there was never a diagnosed case.
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#41 of 56 Old 11-26-2006, 06:20 PM
 
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There actually was, but it caused no illnesses (they simply discovered the virus in them by accident) and it was the vaccine strain, not the wild strain.
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#42 of 56 Old 11-26-2006, 06:24 PM
 
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nevermind.
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#43 of 56 Old 11-26-2006, 06:25 PM
 
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Hi, I am a litle confused- wasn't there an outbreak of polio among the Amish in pennsylvania last year?
There was not a polio outbreak. A VACCINE-DERIVED strain of the virus was found in an infant in Minnesota who did not develop symptoms of polio, which happens in up to 95% of the population.

A vaccine-derived strain means that it came from someone who was shedding the oral polio vaccine. FTR, the CDC and the WHO have no idea how long OPV shedding occurs and therefore there could be a significant number of people walking around with vaccine-derived polio stains or wild polio in their bodies, yet present no symptoms of polio.

The only reason why they knew a few other Amish children had the VD strain was because they tested them. Otherwise, they never would have known.

The CDC doesn't go around testing people for polio when they exhibit flu-like symptoms and then of course almost everyone who has polio will never even develop any symptoms at all.

If you don't seek, you don't find.
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#44 of 56 Old 11-27-2006, 03:05 AM
 
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On my birthday I went to my doctor who did a chest X-ray and said that I did not have pneumonia, but he would treat me for asthma. He mentioned a nebulizer (I asked [one of the other mothers] and she said that's what [her son] used), but he never gave it to me. Instead he put me on tons of meds: Avelox (antibiotic), guaifenex (decongestant with expectorant), Prednisone (steroid), Hyphed (cough syrup with antihistamine, narcotic, decongestant), Albuterol ("rescue" inhaler) and Advair (preventative steroid inhaler).
Alrighty, since you haven't posted on the main forum yet, I'm going to address this right here. It's typical that a chest x-ray would show no congestion with pertussis. Pertussis doesn't cause congestion. It damages the cilia of the lungs, making it extremely difficult to get rid of the normal, everyday amount of mucous that accumulates there. This isn't visible on an x-ray and it isn't audible with a stethoscope, but it's what causes the coughing.

Now, I have no idea when your birthday was, but the medications you're taking are not going to help your condition AT ALL and some of them will make it WORSE. Antibiotics do not cure pertussis at any stage of the illness, nor do they shorten the duration. This has been proven by a thorough review of all the literature.
Quote:
Antibiotics are effective in eliminating from patients with the disease, rendering them non-infectious, but do not alter the subsequent clinical course of the illness.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/502134

So the abx won't help you get better faster. The expectorant isn't going to help, because the cilia aren't functioning well enough to expectorate, no matter how thin and liquid the drug makes the mucous, you still can't cough it up and will still experience the coughing spells. An antihistamine isn't going to help you because you aren't having a histamine response to begin with. And the steroids will make you WORSE, because they weaken the immune system, making it even harder for your body to fight off illness and repair itself. If you want to get better, you need to stop taking them. If you don't have asthma, you shouldn't be treating yourself for asthma. Not your fault, I know, but now that you're aware it isn't asthma, why are you still taking the medications? Out of all those medications, the only thing that might help even a little bit is the decongestant, because it slows the production of mucous. It won't help much, though, because you're going to produce some mucous no matter what you take and remember, it's not the mucous that's the problem - it's your body's inability to get it out.

So for however long you've been using all this medication, you've been doing things that will not help at best (abx, antihistamines) and will make you sicker at worst (steroids). I feel terrible for you that you've been so sick. My DD had pertussis at 5.5 months and she was barely even sick. We didn't require any treatment whatsoever, and in general, pertussis is much, much, much more serious in infants of that age than in adults. The fact that your case is so severe is highly unusual.

The way to avoid such a severe case of pertussis is to take tons and tons and tons of vitamin C at the first sign of pertussis. It helps the body eliminate some of the toxins that damage the cilia, resulting in less damage, which in turn means less coughing. Vitamin C is also great for the immune system. We're not talking a few hundred milligrams here, though. We're talking about several grams a day for an adult.

Again, I'm sorry your case was so severe, but it would be a horrible mistake to ignore all the evidence that says pertussis is generally a mild illness, like this study
Quote:
Most cases of whooping cough are relatively mild. Such cases are difficult to diagnose without a high index of suspicion because doctors are unlikely to hear the characteristic cough, which may be the only symptom. Parents can be reassured that a serious outcome is unlikely.
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/310/6975/299

simply because your case happened to be one of the rare incidents of more severe illness. Just as it would be illogical for me to say that pertussis in infants is mild because my daughter's case was mild, it is illogical for you to assume that pertussis is a generally serious illness just because your case was more severe. The evidence supports the conclusion that pertussis is a mild, self-limiting disease for the vast majority of people.
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#45 of 56 Old 11-30-2006, 04:27 PM
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#46 of 56 Old 11-30-2006, 08:52 PM
 
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Hey wow, that is true about the polio amongst the Amish...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...101301733.html

Kind of confusing though as they say that the strain they found amongst the (unvaxed) Amish is the same strain used in the oral polio vax... which hasn't been used since 2000?

I guess that explains why they are still vaxing for polio, anyways, if it is still floating around out there. I didn't really understand why it was still on our vax schedule given the low number of cases reported (globally) for 2006.

Paralysis in 1 in 200, I am not loving those odds for me or my family, personally.
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#47 of 56 Old 11-30-2006, 09:07 PM
 
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No, that article is inaccurate.

-Angela
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#48 of 56 Old 11-30-2006, 09:56 PM
 
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Kind of confusing though as they say that the strain they found amongst the (unvaxed) Amish is the same strain used in the oral polio vax... which hasn't been used since 2000?
this sentance explains EXACTLY the problem.......they dont vaccinate, yet people in the public who they come into contact with, got the oral polio vaccine, and it shed....but, most people are asymptomatic and 4% have flu like symptoms, and only 1% have paraylisis.

There is no research on how long the OPV will shed, so it could possibly still be infecting people with the Opv strain.

you'll notices theres no WILD polio strain being found, just the vaccine one.
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#49 of 56 Old 11-30-2006, 10:11 PM
 
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I just wanted to ask a question/touch on something, that was said a few times. The reference keeps being made to if someone were to step on a nail and go to the hospital they'd have to get a "tetanus shot". It is my understanding that at that point a shot or vaccine would do nothing for you, but the immunoglobin would. Can someone pls clarify? Thx.
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#50 of 56 Old 11-30-2006, 10:18 PM
 
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I just wanted to ask a question/touch on something, that was said a few times. The reference keeps being made to if someone were to step on a nail and go to the hospital they'd have to get a "tetanus shot". It is my understanding that at that point a shot or vaccine would do nothing for you, but the immunoglobin would. Can someone pls clarify? Thx.
you are correct.......you need the whole series of shots for protection, if they are recommending a tetanus shot, then you arnt in danger. If you are they would reccomend the immunogloblin (Tig) then follow up with the tetanus series.
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#51 of 56 Old 11-30-2006, 11:31 PM
 
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you are correct.......you need the whole series of shots for protection, if they are recommending a tetanus shot, then you arnt in danger. If you are they would reccomend the immunogloblin (Tig) then follow up with the tetanus series.
Ya I just wanted to clarify that, thanks!

My dad said when he goes to the hospital after stepping on a nail, they always give him a shot. I thought it was kinda wierd.
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#52 of 56 Old 11-30-2006, 11:38 PM
 
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Hey wow, that is true about the polio amongst the Amish...
Wow?

The article you posted in not accurate, along with many other reporters who jumped on the same bandwagon at the time.

From the MN Dept. of Health: “These cases do not represent a generalized outbreak of polio virus infection,” said Minnesota Health Commissioner Dianne Mandernach

Polio stats for Minnesota showing zero reported cases of polio for 2005:
http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/i...lio/stats.html
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#53 of 56 Old 12-01-2006, 12:13 AM
 
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Wow?

The article you posted in not accurate, along with many other reporters who jumped on the same bandwagon at the time.

From the MN Dept. of Health: “These cases do not represent a generalized outbreak of polio virus infection,” said Minnesota Health Commissioner Dianne Mandernach

Polio stats for Minnesota showing zero reported cases of polio for 2005:
http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/i...lio/stats.html
thanks for the clarification LI, I knew the real info had to be somewhere
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#54 of 56 Old 12-01-2006, 12:29 PM
 
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Alrighty, since you haven't posted on the main forum yet, I'm going to address this right here. It's typical that a chest x-ray would show no congestion with pertussis. Pertussis doesn't cause congestion. It damages the cilia of the lungs, making it extremely difficult to get rid of the normal, everyday amount of mucous that accumulates there. This isn't visible on an x-ray and it isn't audible with a stethoscope, but it's what causes the coughing.

Now, I have no idea when your birthday was, but the medications you're taking are not going to help your condition AT ALL and some of them will make it WORSE. Antibiotics do not cure pertussis at any stage of the illness, nor do they shorten the duration. This has been proven by a thorough review of all the literature. http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/502134

So the abx won't help you get better faster. The expectorant isn't going to help, because the cilia aren't functioning well enough to expectorate, no matter how thin and liquid the drug makes the mucous, you still can't cough it up and will still experience the coughing spells. An antihistamine isn't going to help you because you aren't having a histamine response to begin with. And the steroids will make you WORSE, because they weaken the immune system, making it even harder for your body to fight off illness and repair itself. If you want to get better, you need to stop taking them. If you don't have asthma, you shouldn't be treating yourself for asthma. Not your fault, I know, but now that you're aware it isn't asthma, why are you still taking the medications? Out of all those medications, the only thing that might help even a little bit is the decongestant, because it slows the production of mucous. It won't help much, though, because you're going to produce some mucous no matter what you take and remember, it's not the mucous that's the problem - it's your body's inability to get it out.

So for however long you've been using all this medication, you've been doing things that will not help at best (abx, antihistamines) and will make you sicker at worst (steroids). I feel terrible for you that you've been so sick. My DD had pertussis at 5.5 months and she was barely even sick. We didn't require any treatment whatsoever, and in general, pertussis is much, much, much more serious in infants of that age than in adults. The fact that your case is so severe is highly unusual.

The way to avoid such a severe case of pertussis is to take tons and tons and tons of vitamin C at the first sign of pertussis. It helps the body eliminate some of the toxins that damage the cilia, resulting in less damage, which in turn means less coughing. Vitamin C is also great for the immune system. We're not talking a few hundred milligrams here, though. We're talking about several grams a day for an adult.

Again, I'm sorry your case was so severe, but it would be a horrible mistake to ignore all the evidence that says pertussis is generally a mild illness, like this study http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/310/6975/299

simply because your case happened to be one of the rare incidents of more severe illness. Just as it would be illogical for me to say that pertussis in infants is mild because my daughter's case was mild, it is illogical for you to assume that pertussis is a generally serious illness just because your case was more severe. The evidence supports the conclusion that pertussis is a mild, self-limiting disease for the vast majority of people.

Thanks, Plummeting.

While I had not yet posted a reply I did take your advice into consideration along with others from elsewhere and did stop most of the medications, especially the steroid inhaler for asthma. My blood pressure, which has been relatively normal except for during my pregnancy, went to the level of Stage 2 Hypertension on the medication. (We have a home monitor from use during my pregnancy. While not always entirely accurate it was consistent with repeated tests.) I was really scared, but within about 24 hours of stopping the meds my BP returned to normal. Phew! And, since I've had pre-diabetes and/or am insulin resistant since my pregnancy I'm sure my blood sugar was high, as well. I just didn't even bother to test.

My DS's pediatrician's office was right on board with your advice, as well. I chose them specifically because they are more holistic in their treatment and do not over-prescribe antibiotics, something I feel has "ruined" my system over the years. So far (18 months) he has not taken any prescribed medications at all.

At this point I am simply desperate for some relief from this cough. You're right in that most adults do not have the severity of symptoms I've had, but those who have whose posts I've read online have all been equally as miserable and desperate. And, there's just nothing to help! I'm just exhausted. And, for my birthday two weeks ago, I received great tickets to see The Producers this Sunday night, but can not even begin to fathom sitting in the front of a crowded auditorium and coughing and gagging into a bag. I'm just so miserable and exhausted. : Whaaaa!
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#55 of 56 Old 12-09-2006, 02:46 AM
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I've edited out about 15 posts from this thread that violate either user agreement or the forum guidelines. To be clear, it is *not* okay to be insultingly sarcastic toward another poster, to personally attack another person, or to use demeaning criticism towards another poster. It is also *not* okay to post any information to any thread in this forum that is not directoly useful to someone was has decided to vaccinate her child on a selective or delayed schedule.

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#56 of 56 Old 03-16-2008, 02:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boston View Post
Thank you for this information. I hadn't heard that before...
I was up to date with all my vaccines at the beginning of college in 2003. I just had a baby 3 months ago and the doctor said I had no immunity to Rubella. So even if you do get the Rubella vaccine before puberty, you can still lose immunity and end up needing the vaccine again, as in my case. However, never get the Rubella vaccine while pregnant as it can cause fetal abnormalities, and I personally wouldn't recommend getting it while breastfeeding either, just to be on the safe side.
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