dr bob sears vs dr jay gordon - Mothering Forums
Selective & Delayed Vaccination > dr bob sears vs dr jay gordon
gretelmom's Avatar gretelmom 03:18 AM 01-31-2008
okay, so I'm trying to decide about Prevnar... i read Dr Bob Sears' vaccine book and it says the "serious" manifestations of the PC virus are quite common, possibly thousands - serious being blood infections, pneumonia, meningitis. Dr Jay Gordon, on his website, refers to the Prevnar shot being more about ineffective attempts to prevent ear infections and the extremely rare case of meningitis..

Okay, so why this discrepancy?? I know there is a lot of speculation about rates of diseases, but THIS difference? What does everyone think?

alegna's Avatar alegna 03:30 AM 01-31-2008
Prevnar is VERY effective at eliminating the strains it covers. Problem is that other bacteria fill the void very quickly.

-Angela
gretelmom's Avatar gretelmom 02:32 PM 01-31-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by alegna View Post
Prevnar is VERY effective at eliminating the strains it covers. Problem is that other bacteria fill the void very quickly.

-Angela
Yeah, but what's the incidence of the diseases it actually eliminates? KWIM? That's where I find the discrepancy...
rredhead's Avatar rredhead 04:04 AM 02-04-2008
Quote:
Yeah, but what's the incidence of the diseases it actually eliminates? KWIM? That's where I find the discrepancy...
I think that's the problem. I've read that actual statistics don't exist and I've read that there are tens of thousands of cases of meningitis. I know there was a great thread here recently about the different strains of meningitis. You might want to search for "Hib" and look in the last 2 months (Dec - Jan).
alegna's Avatar alegna 01:22 PM 02-04-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by gretelmom View Post
Yeah, but what's the incidence of the diseases it actually eliminates? KWIM? That's where I find the discrepancy...
As mentioned- that's the problem. We have no idea. It wasn't reportable before the vaccine was out...

-Angela
Jay Gordon, MD's Avatar Jay Gordon, MD 09:20 PM 04-05-2008
Bob's aluminum article in Mothering is the best I've ever read about this topic/toxin.

Jay
PassionateWriter's Avatar PassionateWriter 09:24 PM 04-05-2008
i havent read Dr. Sears book b/c i have heard of many errors in it.
alpenglow's Avatar alpenglow 01:14 AM 05-05-2008
I remember reading recently about a study out of a Dallas?? hospital that reported that 95% of serious invasive pneumococcal disease were caused by strains not covered by the vaccine. I also recall reading about a study that showed an increased carriage rate of Staph A. (possibly MRSA) in those who'd received pneumococcal vaccine. Sorry I don't have the reference off hand, but I bet you could find them with a bit of searching.

What sealed the deal for me was some research into risk factors for pneumoccal disease. (I stopped Prevnar after one shot at 9 months- no reactions other than mild fever. I got one more of Pentacel...Cdn version of DTap/polio/hib with no problems...as that's the only series I want to complete for now...especially if I have another child - don't want dd1 to pass on pertussis...as it's fairly common in our area) Anyway, I didn't have most of the risk factors, plus am still bf'ing. CURRENT bf'ing has a relative risk of .2 or .25 for invasive pneumocccal disease...which (correct me if I'm wrong...) is basically 4-5 times less likely to occur than in someone who is not currently bf'ing. Not to say bf'ing is a guarantee, but the statistics clearly show it helps. (sorry - again my references aren't handy but a google could probably find the article in Pediatrics)

The other piece of information that caused me to stop vaccinating (or at least delay some a little longer) was the Dr. Sears chapter on aluminum. I'd like to give the book to my doctor for that reason alone! I did find it somewhat curious that he would still be recommending early vax with pc when there were so many red flags raised about aluminum.
Jay Gordon, MD's Avatar Jay Gordon, MD 04:16 AM 05-05-2008
VACCINES

The best option at the present time might be to stop all vaccines if you understand and agree with the statistical risks involved with non-vaccination. This option is not acceptable for every family.

Bob Sears has written a brilliant article about the scientifically demonstrated but largely undefined risk of aluminum in shots. Brilliant! To Dr. Sears, I would argue that this could now serve as a bridge to a possible pause in vaccines until they remove residual mercury and all the aluminum. I understand that alternative schedules might be an answer for some but we’re still using the same shots with the same ingredients. Dr. Sears forcefully and very intelligently states that we don't know if there is a safe level of aluminum and preservatives! Time for a temporary pause, Dr. Bob?

https://www.mothering.com/articles/g...himerosal.html

Vaccine manufacturers, the CDC/FDA/AAP/ACIP need to prove the safety of the aluminum, formalin, residual egg and porcine cells in immunizations.

It is not our job to prove danger, it's their job to prove that attempting to create immunity against certain illnesses is safe and worth the risk to an individual child. The discussion of Public Health is important but parents also want and are completely entitled to discuss risks and benefits for one child, their child. Could the risk/benefit ratio be different? Yes, it could be. Your doctor has to discuss safety: get the aluminum and the rest of the mercury out of vaccines. Stop assuming that we’re naive enough to believe that injecting aluminum, formalin, other preservatives, porcine residue and more will create no side effects.

We have watched the progression of childhood illness to the horror of the CDC's own number: one of six children have a neuroimmune disease. Every day I see children with OCD, Autism spectrum challenges, severe oppositional-defiant syndrome, ADD/ADHD (it’s real!) learning disorders from mild to disabling severe, or bipolar disorder.

Prove vaccines--the concept and their full complement of ingredients--safe or stopping asking us to jump when you say jump.



Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP
drjaygordon.com (my vaccine articles may be out of date. I'm a little wiser and angrier now.)
runes's Avatar runes 04:27 AM 05-05-2008
Thanks so much, Dr. Gordon!

By the way, I saw your webchat on the FoxLA site last week...thanks for that, too, it was great!!
LavenderMae's Avatar LavenderMae 06:24 PM 05-05-2008
Dr. Gordon, your post is refreshing!
mamaniq's Avatar mamaniq 06:49 PM 05-05-2008
OT but this caught my eye:
dot1, regarding the transmission of pertussis...
As I have learned from this board the vaccine doesn't actually stop the transmission, just the symptoms of infection (when it actually stimulates immunity). I don't question your decision but wouldn't want you to discount a possible pertussis diagnosis because of vaccination.
TrishaG's Avatar TrishaG 12:19 AM 05-06-2008
Thanx Dr. Gordon, you make me feel better about my non-vaccinating decisions....terrible about giving him even the 2 month vaccines before I starting researching. We all appreciate your input.
alpenglow's Avatar alpenglow 02:00 AM 05-06-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamaniq View Post
OT but this caught my eye:
dot1, regarding the transmission of pertussis...
As I have learned from this board the vaccine doesn't actually stop the transmission, just the symptoms of infection (when it actually stimulates immunity). I don't question your decision but wouldn't want you to discount a possible pertussis diagnosis because of vaccination.
Thanks! (OT I know, but in case anyone else looks for same info, I found a sticky about this on the pertussis/dip/tet forum).

And thank you Dr. Gordon for taking the time to contribute your thoughts!
Wouldn't it be fabulous if Dr. Sears joined in too?
mariag's Avatar mariag 02:12 AM 05-07-2008
I have given less vaccines wth each child, and started being selective with ds1 about 6 months in...#3 is 6 weeks, none so far and I'm stuck between the sears selective schedule without rotovirus (which even my more mainstream dr agreed was crazy for a bf, stay at home mom in our country) and after reading dr gordons post, none for now...but....hard to say none....is that crazy?
Gitti's Avatar Gitti 04:52 PM 05-07-2008
Hey, Dr. Gordon, you have come a long way from your first posting on this Forum. Wow!
haleyelianasmom's Avatar haleyelianasmom 02:12 AM 05-08-2008
This is a bit off topic, but is the biggest issue with the aluminum the fact that it is injected rather than being ingested? I came upon this piece of information on kellymom.com... Is this accurate? http://www.kellymom.com/herbal/milks...fenugreek.html

Scroll down... 35 mg of aluminum per 100 gm of fenugreek?

ETA: eh, I guess we aren't feeding large amounts of fenugreek to babies, only the motehrs and who knows how much enters the beastmilk, but I was wondering if there are otherr random sources of aluminum in our diets that are unexpected.
mamakay's Avatar mamakay 03:00 AM 05-08-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by haleyelianasmom View Post
This is a bit off topic, but is the biggest issue with the aluminum the fact that it is injected rather than being ingested? I came upon this piece of information on kellymom.com... Is this accurate? http://www.kellymom.com/herbal/milks...fenugreek.html

Scroll down... 35 mg of aluminum per 100 gm of fenugreek?
The uptake of aluminum by the gut is very, very low...between .1 and 1%...the gut does a great job of keeping aluminum OUT.
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