My Pedi Told Me.. - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 22 Old 08-08-2008, 02:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I took Fiona to her 2 mo. appointment today. We see a very mainstream doctor, and I was super surprised when I asked him at her last visit whether we could split up/delay some of the vaccines and he agreed. It took quite a lot of doing to get the logistics set of just this first visit even.. it's pretty obvious that they don't get requests like this very often.

So, anyway.. I had told him that I only wanted to do DTaP (Tripedia) at this visit, which he was okay with. But then when he looked at my proposed schedule, he was dead set against us waiting until 9 months to do Polio (I pretty much copied Dr. Sears alternative vax schedule, but skipped rotovirus since my pedi's office doesn't do that one). He said that September is the prime month for polio. When I said that nobody gets polio anymore, that there's no risk of her getting it (though I do still want her to get the vax eventually), he said, "That's only because they're vaccinated! The virus is still all over the place out there!" I was like.. what?! That doesn't seem right to me, but I'm the first to admit that I'm no expert. I agreed for now to give her DTaP and polio at her 4 month visit, thinking that I'd have plenty of time to research. So, can anyone point me to some really reputable info about this? If I try to refuse polio at 4 months, he's going to make a HUGE stink, to the point where I think he might kick us out of the practice.

And yes, I know many of you will probably say, "Just find a new doctor!" but for many reasons, I don't want to do that. I would really, really prefer to stick with this practice, so I need really good info about why the chances of her getting polio in the next 7 months are practically zil.

ETA: He doesn't much care for Dr. Sears, so I can't use him as a source. He totally rolled his eyes when I showed him the Sears Vaccination Book.

-Rachel
Mommy to Colwyn, 10/03 ~ Lachlann, 8/05 ~ Fiona, 6/08 ~ Niall, 5/10
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#2 of 22 Old 08-08-2008, 02:22 PM
 
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I wouldn't bother with info. I'd make him prove that polio is "all over the place"

How absurd...

-Angela
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#3 of 22 Old 08-08-2008, 02:33 PM
 
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September is THE month for Polio???? Here, in the US? Like you can pick it up at the "back to school sale" at Walliworld or something? :
And maybe the Doc wants to specify "out there" a bit. He's trying to scare you, nothing else. What's up with September??? Maybe he should inform the CDC about wild polio outbreaks, I am sure they would appreciate the info.

And who cares if he likes Sears or not? He can roll his eyes all his wants, he providing you a service, you're simply exercing you parental right of medical decision making, rolling his eyes is just pretty immature.

If you wanna stay with him I would ignore that and practice ignorance to this behaviour. Your not in school trying to get better grades- he can insist all he wants and not like your schedule- his problem, not yours.

You're the parent and not obligated to "do as he says".
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#4 of 22 Old 08-08-2008, 02:40 PM
 
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You can start with this link (from insidevaccines)

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5342a4.htm

The second sentence or so is particularly good for your purposes:

Progress toward achieving this goal has been reported from countries where polio is endemic, and three World Health Organization (WHO) regions (Americas, Europe, and Western Pacific) appear to be free of indigenous wild poliovirus (WPV) transmission.

There are other links as well....

But honestly, I know you don't want to switch docs but I would have a very hard time respecting or listening to a doctor who says and apparently believes such asinine untruths and who rolled his eyes at the info you attempted to provide. I think I may have thrown that book at his face.
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#5 of 22 Old 08-08-2008, 02:50 PM
 
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I think, *technically*, the polio virus exists in nature. Like, in dirt. But it doesn't follow that your kid is going to get the debilitating disease without a vaccine. From a review of a book about vaccines: "Polio had been a common childhood intestinal disease that left almost everyone with lifetime immunity until improved sanitation made the disease increasingly rare and virulent". I let my kids play in the dirt, I'm really not worried about diseases they're going to get from it. I am more concerned with bugs they can pick up from other kids who pass things around in day cares and schools, and from hospitals/dr.'s offices. So your pediatrician is sort of right, but wrong too.

I think with an attitude like that, it's going to be very difficult to present him with "evidence" that your child doesn't need a certain vaccine. With the way the vax vs. no vax camps are set up, either side can blow off the other as fanatical. I think if you really want to follow a particular vax schedule you need to be firm with your boundaries, state that you've done your own research and that as the parent, you are making the decision you feel most comfortable with for your child. Try emphasizing that you have the final say on what happens with your kid and you appreciate his input but you are gathering your information from many sources.

Ultimately, you need to be able to work with someone who can respect your parenting decisions. If this ped won't listen and can't be convinced, there's not much you can do. It's not like there's some alternate governmental or medical "authority" that tells people how NOT to vax their kids.

Mom to DD ('06) and DS ('08)
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#6 of 22 Old 08-08-2008, 03:33 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks for the link! It was very helpful.. I'll print it out and bring it along with me. I also found a few other things: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00032760.htm This looks promising, but I haven't read through it all yet.

So, if polio lives in the dirt, but there are groups of people not vaccinating their kids against it, wouldn't there at least be one or two cases of polio? I'm just thinking here and if this doesn't make sense, let me know. So, with smallpox, everyone was vaccinated. After a while, there were no documented cases of smallpox and they declared it eradicated. Then they stopped vaccinating people against it. So, if viruses still 'lived out there' - wouldn't there be cases of smallpox now that people aren't vaccinated for it? When there aren't any cases of a disease, like with smallpox, does the virus just disappear? If that's the case, then if the US is declared polio-free, is the virus still around here or not? Hmm.

-Rachel
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#7 of 22 Old 08-08-2008, 03:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ColwynsMommy View Post
So, if polio lives in the dirt, but there are groups of people not vaccinating their kids against it, wouldn't there at least be one or two cases of polio?
Not all cases of polio lead to paralysis. Some cases you'd never know you had anything more than a cold.

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#8 of 22 Old 08-08-2008, 04:45 PM
 
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Polio doesn't live in the dirt. Not for long, anyway. If you have a bunch of polio infected people pooping in a dirty area, you might find some polio there, but that's about it.
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#9 of 22 Old 08-08-2008, 04:55 PM
 
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Not all cases of polio lead to paralysis. Some cases you'd never know you had anything more than a cold.
I believe something like 95% of polio cases are asymptomatic.

Rachel, mom to Jake (5/04) and Alexia (7/07) a surprise UC thanks to hypnobabies!
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#10 of 22 Old 08-08-2008, 04:56 PM
 
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I know you are planning on going back... but if I were you... I would find another practice Sorry but just giving my honest opinion.
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#11 of 22 Old 08-08-2008, 05:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks for everyone's replies.

Let me rephrase the question simply. If there have been no cases of wild polio in the US since 1985 (which is what Dr. Sears says, I believe), is the poliovirus still floating around in our environment?

I'm not talking about other countries where polio is endemic. I'm talking about in the US.

-Rachel
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#12 of 22 Old 08-08-2008, 06:21 PM
 
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If there have been no cases of wild polio in the US since 1985 (which is what Dr. Sears says, I believe), is the poliovirus still floating around in our environment?
Nobody really knows. It could be floating around not causing any paralysis (or doing it so rarely nobody thinks to test for polio) or maybe not. The CDC isn't doing any surveillence for it, though. So there's no way to know.
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#13 of 22 Old 08-08-2008, 06:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ColwynsMommy View Post
Thanks for everyone's replies.

Let me rephrase the question simply. If there have been no cases of wild polio in the US since 1985 (which is what Dr. Sears says, I believe), is the poliovirus still floating around in our environment?
By and large? I doubt it. I seriously doubt it.

-Angela
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#14 of 22 Old 08-08-2008, 06:34 PM
 
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"they" say we are one plane ride/passenger away from an outbreak.....

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#15 of 22 Old 08-08-2008, 08:07 PM
 
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"they" say we are one plane ride/passenger away from an outbreak.....
"they" also say that it is so close to eradication that any year now they're going to stop vaxing for it all together....

-Angela
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#16 of 22 Old 08-13-2008, 11:49 AM
 
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I admit I don't keep up with these things as much as I would wish to, but the last I heard about polio, it was discovered purely by chance, (as in the children who had it were not sick or paralized from it). I find myself wondering how these non vaccinated children were exposed to the vaccine strain of inactivated polio in the first place..hmm, what a mystery. Reminds me of how my non vaccinated children contracted a vaccine strain of chicken pox from a recently vaccinated child, (my medical doc told me this, LOL) Anyhoo..

http://www.newswithviews.com/Tenpenny/sherri3.htm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...101301733.html

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#17 of 22 Old 08-19-2008, 08:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ColwynsMommy View Post
He said that September is the prime month for polio.
I SERIOUSLY want to know his source for that!

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#18 of 22 Old 08-20-2008, 08:30 AM
 
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I SERIOUSLY want to know his source for that!
I'm new to this forum, so hello there!

I found an answer to your question:
In Wikipedia, it is said:
"It is seasonal in temperate climates, with peak transmission occurring in summer and autumn.[11] These seasonal differences are far less pronounced in tropical areas.[12] "

The references are:
[11] Kew O, Sutter R, de Gourville E, Dowdle W, Pallansch M (2005). "Vaccine-derived polioviruses and the endgame strategy for global polio eradication". Annu Rev Microbiol 59: 587–635. doi:10.1146/annurev.micro.58.030603.123625. PMID 16153180.
[12] Parker SP (ed.) (1998). McGraw-Hill Concise Encyclopedia of Science & Technology. New York: McGraw-Hill, 67. ISBN 0-07-052659-1.

In the context of the US, where Polio does not exist any more, I consider the comment from the doctor non-sensical anyway.

Cheers,
Sabine
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#19 of 22 Old 08-20-2008, 09:49 AM
 
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Nobody really knows. It could be floating around not causing any paralysis (or doing it so rarely nobody thinks to test for polio) or maybe not. The CDC isn't doing any surveillence for it, though. So there's no way to know.
I remember reading somewhere that a vaccinated child will always excrete some of the poliovirus in feces---so even though it's against the law to put human excrement into landfills, every single disposable diaper-using parent I know does. That's a big liability with a leaky landfill and a high water table!

Perhaps that's how poliovirus could live on. Yet another reason to cloth diaper! Doesn't scare me enough to warrant vaxing for it though. . .

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#20 of 22 Old 08-20-2008, 10:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ColwynsMommy View Post
Thanks for everyone's replies.

Let me rephrase the question simply. If there have been no cases of wild polio in the US since 1985 (which is what Dr. Sears says, I believe), is the poliovirus still floating around in our environment?
Well, we know the OPV is. A few years ago an Amish girl being treated in an 'English' hospital was found to have the polio virus in her stool, as well as several others in her community.


These old threads may help.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=356355
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=252526

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...play.php?f=113



I wouldn't do anything just to make this Dr. happy.

"It should be a rule in all prophylactic work that no harm should ever be unnecessarily inflicted on a healthy person (Sir Graham Wilson, The Hazards of Immunization, 1967)."
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#21 of 22 Old 08-20-2008, 10:49 AM
 
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OK, let me revise that: looks like people excrete poliovirus when vaccinated with the live oral for about six weeks.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2991368

Sorry to drift OT there. . .

To the OP: any doctor who rolls his eyes at you about this issue will probably also not respect other decisions you make as a parent. I know you don't want to leave that practice, but it doesn't sound like you will ever have a very good relationship with this provider. My two cents.

Peace,
Jen

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#22 of 22 Old 08-22-2008, 02:28 PM
 
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OK, let me revise that: looks like people excrete poliovirus when vaccinated with the live oral for about six weeks.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2991368

Sorry to drift OT there. . .

Peace,
Jen
Fascinating.

There is SO MUCH info on this board, I love it.

Alicia, wife to an loving and faithful DH, and mama to three fantastic though nutty children (cs, then an HBAC, then a VBAC!!).
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