my angst about bra wearing and pre-adolescense - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 100 Old 08-17-2009, 08:36 PM
 
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I know a family that has their own organic farm and feeds their kids off that farm and the kids drink only goat milk from their goats. Their two daughters started puberty early. I'm very careful about the growth hormones, but I'm starting to doubt that link. The friend with the above-mentioned daughters said that she thinks it's because people in general are healthier and if we are healthier for generation after generation, our bodies can theoretically handle pregnancy earlier and nature likes that kind of thing, so we start puberty earlier. I don't know if that's the case either, but I'm not sure about the non-organic foods either.
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#62 of 100 Old 08-17-2009, 08:50 PM
 
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Oh good grief. I never advocated forcing girls to wear underwear with cartoons on it at any age. I suppose that having allowed her to have one (which she picked out and likes) with cartoons on it is a sign that I have forcibly infantilized her.
FTR, neither I nor my children drink or have drunk conventionally produced dairy products except on very rare occasions and we were all organic for years and none of us have been obese and yes, DD is a late bloomer as was I. But just because a girl is developing physically does not mean that she is ready to leave childhood emotionally, and I would think that being able to choose more age appropriate options would be a good thing. The pushup and lacy underwire styles offered in the children's sections are much creepier to me.
Did I say you said that? What I said was, that plain colored bras are NOT forcing our children into adolescents sooner. I have never seen lacy under wire bra's in the children's section, but then again, they don't carry anything above an A there. We now have to buy my daughter's bra's in the "adult" section and there are PLENTY of modest bra's for younger girls. And BTW.. since anything about an A is in the adult section of course there are going to be more mature styles there was well.

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Well being over-weight & bovine growth hormones in milk are both the factors as to why girls are developing earlier.Another factor would be genetically weak areas, also race and climate etc..I have read and heard that in the old days 150yrs ago girls at the age of 15-16 would start there period where as today the average age is 13 and younger.Same thing for boys the average age of puberty was 15-16 where as today it's 13.
I am just not getting why someone who develops earlier would be genetically weak. That makes no sense at all.

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I know a family that has their own organic farm and feeds their kids off that farm and the kids drink only goat milk from their goats. Their two daughters started puberty early. I'm very careful about the growth hormones, but I'm starting to doubt that link. The friend with the above-mentioned daughters said that she thinks it's because people in general are healthier and if we are healthier for generation after generation, our bodies can theoretically handle pregnancy earlier and nature likes that kind of thing, so we start puberty earlier. I don't know if that's the case either, but I'm not sure about the non-organic foods either.
: I have actually heard that as well.

People 150 years ago were malnourished and malnutrition is known to cause puberty to start later.

I would be interested to know at what age people in properly nourished ancient civilizations started puberty.
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#63 of 100 Old 08-17-2009, 09:01 PM
 
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They found that Paleolithic girls arrived at menarche - the first occurrence of menstruation - between seven and 13 years. This is a similar age to modern girls, which suggests that this is the evolutionarily determined age of puberty in girls.

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Disease and poor nutrition became more common as humans settled, causing puberty to be delayed. Modern hygiene, nutrition and medicine have allowed the age of menarche to fall to its original range.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1201022811.htm
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#64 of 100 Old 08-17-2009, 09:22 PM
 
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Well I believe that neanderthal beings started puberty earlier compared to homo sapians.Although I'm not sure if Paleolithic people were either neanderthal, or homo sapain or both neanderthal and homo sapians living together at the same time.
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#65 of 100 Old 08-17-2009, 09:46 PM
 
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This just comes to show that girls are starting to develop earlier and earlier each passing year.Two culprits would be A. today's food supplies including milk, dairy, and animal products have more growth hormones injected than compared to previous decades.B its this media trying to sexualize young girl make them grow up sooner.

Also in this society in both sides one getting either offened or aroused seeing breast buds/nip slips, also having to wear a bra to cover a 8-9yr old's chest under it even wearing a shirt under it in other words sexualizing younger girls.In Europe it's a different story, I remember when my family went to Europe for summer vacation back when my sister was 16 and I was 14 we wear a T-shirt/tank top without a bra under it, and I realized that it was different meaning that both my sister and I didn't get any stares, everyone was minding there own business.When I went to France in my college years a friend that I made over there we talked about this aspect girls/wearing bra, what age they start to wear and what place and situations most go braless.

My sister who has an 11/2 yr old daughter has been in this eating organic foods lifestyle for 13yrs.So therefore she has raised her 2 kids including her 11y.o daughter eating organic foods consuming little dairy products, including filtered reverse osmosis water, etc..As a result they are healthier than there peers .Anyways my 11/2y.o niece is still nearly flat chested that my sister has only bought her a few plain white bra just for formal occasions, also when going to school.She only wears it when going to school and wears clothes when going outside that don't accidently expose her nipples when kneeling/bending down.
DD has been raised on organic, hormon free food. She started developing at 9. Genetics plays a much bigger role.

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#66 of 100 Old 08-17-2009, 09:52 PM
 
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Well I believe that neanderthal beings started puberty earlier compared to homo sapians.Although I'm not sure if Paleolithic people were either neanderthal, or homo sapain or both neanderthal and homo sapians living together at the same time.
The paleolithic people were Homo Sapiens, same as you and me.

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#67 of 100 Old 08-17-2009, 10:00 PM
 
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Disease and poor nutrition became more common as humans settled, causing puberty to be delayed. Modern hygiene, nutrition and medicine have allowed the age of menarche to fall to its original range.
That is my main thought on this.

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#68 of 100 Old 08-17-2009, 10:02 PM
 
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OK, then lets come forward in time some:
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We have already seen that the average age of puberty was 12 to 13 among girls and around I4 for boys.
http://www.touregypt.net/HistoricalE...feinEgypt8.htm

running late will check out some others later.
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#69 of 100 Old 08-17-2009, 10:03 PM
 
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Here bra's tend to be all in one place with no Adult section or Kids section. That being said, it strikes me as odd that a kids section would not have anything above an A. If anything, it illustrates societies need to keep little girls, little girls. After all they aren't supposed to have breast bigger then an A (if at all).

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#70 of 100 Old 08-17-2009, 10:15 PM
 
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I ate loads of dairy on a daily basis and I was flat chested till I was 15. My younger sister ate the same diet and needed a bra by 11-12.

I don't feel the need to "blame" puberty on anything, since it is natural and comes to each of us at the time that is right for our own body.
rBGH wasn't licensed, and thus not in the food supply, until 1994, so you wouldn't have been effected by it. You would have been exposed to normal bovine growth hormones in milk, but not the GMO synthetic version.

Anecdotally, the population of girls at the summer camp I used to work at has dramatically changed in the last decade. In the '90s, there were always about 2 girls out of 1,600 who had their periods while at camp. About 12 each summer were curvy. Now, all of the 11- and 12-year- olds are curvy, and many have their periods each week. It's a dramatic change. Something has changed in the last decade - it could be birth control in the water, rBGH, the estrogen-like effects of more plastic exposure, or something else.
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#71 of 100 Old 08-17-2009, 10:39 PM
 
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How about this, girls at no longer being told they have to sit at home and do nothing while on their period.

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#72 of 100 Old 08-17-2009, 11:13 PM
 
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Here bra's tend to be all in one place with no Adult section or Kids section. That being said, it strikes me as odd that a kids section would not have anything above an A. If anything, it illustrates societies need to keep little girls, little girls. After all they aren't supposed to have breast bigger then an A (if at all).
Yea.. the underwear in that section goes up to a size 16, (which is about what a 105 girl would wear.) But bra's are only up to an A then you have to go to the adult section.
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#73 of 100 Old 08-17-2009, 11:16 PM
 
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it could also be that more form-fitting clothes are the norm now, so you notice the curves earlier???

my dd grew up in canada, where there is no bvgh, and she's developing early, right around the same age I did in the US 25 years before her... I'd say genetics is the biggest factor, though I agree that more body fat leads to earlier puberty, perhaps -- really skinny kids seem to enter puberty later than others. I wonder which comes first, though -- my dd has always been "average sized" right from birth, and in the last year she's gotten slightly puffier, shall we say, and she's also developing pubic hair and breast growth (along with the soreness, so it's not just extra fat)... I think kids tend to pack on a little extra weight right before puberty, so it might seem that "obese" kids enter puberty sooner... chicken and the egg thing...

in any case, we are currently living in new zealand, where shopping options are a little more limited, and we have a hard time finding tank tops/camisoles that DON'T have a shelf bra already inside, and this is size 8, 10... my dd is adamant that she doesn't want a shelf bra inside her shirt, though I'm guessing in the next few months her tune will change, as she's already complaining about her new bounciness, and she's barely bouncy.

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#74 of 100 Old 08-18-2009, 12:06 AM
 
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How about this, girls at no longer being told they have to sit at home and do nothing while on their period.
In my culture, that wasn't a popular idea in the '90s or today. I don't think that idea would make a difference in the camp population that I talked about.
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#75 of 100 Old 08-18-2009, 12:29 AM
 
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Many girls have gotten that from the mom/aunt/grandma/friends at school and were never corrected. It's very easy for a girl to think "I'm not suppsed to do sports/go swimming/involve my self in a wide variety of activities you do at camp during that time so I just won't go."

There has also been a change in opinions about younger girls who have started their period. People are finally accepting that yes, 10/11/12 year old are starting their period and it's not something to hide.

Finally, I doubt you talked to all 1,600 girls and if you did got an honest reponse from every single one. Or even honestly from all the girls you talked to if you didn't talk to all of them. And it goes both ways. If the first couple are saying the haven't started yet, the others are more likely to follow that lead to avoid being the weird ones and visa verca for those who say they did, a certain percentage of girls will lie and say "me too" just to not be left out.

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#76 of 100 Old 08-18-2009, 12:48 AM
 
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Many girls have gotten that from the mom/aunt/grandma/friends at school and were never corrected. It's very easy for a girl to think "I'm not suppsed to do sports/go swimming/involve my self in a wide variety of activities you do at camp during that time so I just won't go."

There has also been a change in opinions about younger girls who have started their period. People are finally accepting that yes, 10/11/12 year old are starting their period and it's not something to hide.

Finally, I doubt you talked to all 1,600 girls and if you did got an honest reponse from every single one. Or even honestly from all the girls you talked to if you didn't talk to all of them. And it goes both ways. If the first couple are saying the haven't started yet, the others are more likely to follow that lead to avoid being the weird ones and visa verca for those who say they did, a certain percentage of girls will lie and say "me too" just to not be left out.
First off.. No one ever taught me or gave me the foggiest notion that I coudln't do things while on my period. I am willing to bet I am a bit older than many of the people on this board.

Second there is no way in hell my camp councilor would have known I was on my period or that I had even started cause I wouldn't have told anyone. It's none of their business.

However.. now that I think of it.. when I filled out the paperwork for DD to go to camp it asks on there if they have started their period and if they know what to do when/if they do.
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#77 of 100 Old 08-18-2009, 01:43 AM
 
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First off, I specifically remember being taught (late 90's) in sex ed that girls start their period age 13 or later and that a girl needs to becareful not to do anything that might cause "leaks or showing that she is having her period." For a lot of kids, at school sex ed is all they get.

Second, camps haven't asked if DD had started her period yet and I honestly would not be comfortable answering that question on the camp form. IMO the camp doesn't need to know if she has all ready started her period. I can understand asking if she knows how to handle having/starting her period at camp.

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#78 of 100 Old 08-18-2009, 02:09 AM
 
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First off, I specifically remember being taught (late 90's) in sex ed that girls start their period age 13 or later and that a girl needs to becareful not to do anything that might cause "leaks or showing that she is having her period." For a lot of kids, at school sex ed is all they get.

Second, camps haven't asked if DD had started her period yet and I honestly would not be comfortable answering that question on the camp form. IMO the camp doesn't need to know if she has all ready started her period. I can understand asking if she knows how to handle having/starting her period at camp.
Well what you were taught in school was 1. incorrect. and 2. not something that the taught in the 80's in California. I mean Seriously, they need to be careful not to cause leaks or show that she is having her period???? And WHY were you in the class where this was being discussed?? Sure both boys and girls get the basics but being careful not to cause leaks is something that would be discussed AFTER the boys and girls separate.

They separated them when I was in school, they separated them when my 16 year old was in 5th grade, and they separated my 10 year old last year. They always do the "group" basics and the separate "in depth."

As for camp... it's Girl Scout camp. There are only girls there. And I never really thought about if I was comfortable answering it cause so far the answer has been no.
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#79 of 100 Old 08-18-2009, 02:15 AM
 
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Finally, I doubt you talked to all 1,600 girls and if you did got an honest reponse from every single one. Or even honestly from all the girls you talked to if you didn't talk to all of them. And it goes both ways. If the first couple are saying the haven't started yet, the others are more likely to follow that lead to avoid being the weird ones and visa verca for those who say they did, a certain percentage of girls will lie and say "me too" just to not be left out.
I didn't mean to start a huge debate. But I will explain how the system worked at this camp...

The parents do indicated on the health form shown to the cabin counselor and to the unit director indicating if the girl has started her period.

It is very possible that there were girls on their periods during camp that I was not aware of. However, there were about 2 girls out of 1,600 who had a problem during the week they were at camp (e.g., needed sheets washed, needed pads/tampons, started the period for the first time and were scared, leaked on jeans and needed some help washing clothes). Those situations were unusual, and right or wrong, were discussed at meetings with the female counselors (just as we discussed homesick kids, kids with severe allergies and epi pens, etc). We all knew to keep an eye out for those girls - to let them leave activities early, to help them with some privacy after swimming, to help each other hike the laundry out of the cabins and out to the washers discretely so as to not embarrass the camper. This summer, there were many girls every week who had those little situations needing assistance. It's a dramatic change in numbers. Maybe they are just less secretive, but the change is huge! They difference in the trash in the girl's bathhouse is enormous.

Similarly, the curvy campers were few. I still remember the names and faces of the curvy 12-year-old campers from 1996. This year, the 12-year-olds with childish figures, flat chests, and no hips were the campers who stood out.

Fashions at camp haven't changed much - 1 piece swim suits, t shirts, athletic shorts, jeans.
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#80 of 100 Old 08-18-2009, 02:18 AM
 
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First off, I specifically remember being taught (late 90's) in sex ed that girls start their period age 13 or later and that a girl needs to becareful not to do anything that might cause "leaks or showing that she is having her period." For a lot of kids, at school sex ed is all they get.
That is really shocking to me. I grew up in the rural south, and I never heard such a thing. I was told that it was a good idea to change pads and tampons to prevent leaks. I never heard anything about limiting activities. I never remember any girls sitting out of swim team, cheer leading, cross country, tumbling, or dance. And some of those uniforms would show leaks! There were rumors going around our locker rooms that women who were menstruating had a competitive edge at athletic competitions.
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#81 of 100 Old 08-18-2009, 02:26 AM
 
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1. I know it was incorrect, my parents taught me differently but not everyone has those parents. 2. Every sex ed curriculum is different and every teacher is different.

Genders here don't get seperated except for a one day lesson on respectful dating. Since everyone is learning the same lessons, girls and boys are taught in the same class.

Finally, unless you can give me a good reason why the need to know if DD has started her periond it doesn't matter if she has or not, it's none of their business.

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#82 of 100 Old 08-18-2009, 02:35 AM
 
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1. I know it was incorrect, my parents taught me differently but not everyone has those parents. 2. Every sex ed curriculum is different and every teacher is different.

Genders here don't get seperated except for a one day lesson on respectful dating. Since everyone is learning the same lessons, girls and boys are taught in the same class.

Finally, unless you can give me a good reason why the need to know if DD has started her periond it doesn't matter if she has or not, it's none of their business.
I'm glad that your parents were able to correct the bad sex-ed info your received! It's good that you had a relationship where you could talk to them about that stuff.

I never meant to imply that any parent would "need" to put down that their daughter had started menstruating. I can see why a parent wouldn't want that info down. At the camp I have worked at, the staff were very respectful and kept the info private - between the staff members working with the girls directly. None of the activity counselors knew unless the girl was actively menstruating and had asked for help at which time the info would be brought up at a morning female staff meeting. Knowing ahead of time did help me keep my eyes open. However, it is really unnecessary now b/c the staff assumes that all of the girls are menstruating. I fully support your and your daughter's right to privacy and to keep that personal info private!
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#83 of 100 Old 08-18-2009, 02:39 AM
 
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Forgot to mention that some parents have less accepting views of menstruation too. A view they pass on to their kids.

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#84 of 100 Old 08-18-2009, 02:53 AM
 
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I often go out in just a t shirt and I have to say that I haven't found anyone staring at my nipples.
Ah, but how many 10-14 year olds do you spend time with as equals?

Also, as an adult, you are a fairly private person, preteens are, in their own minds, the center of the universe under scrutiny by every single person in a 4 mile radius.

A young girl who notices her nipples are poking out of her shirt will be convinced that they are as obvious as though they had bright red lights attached. This gets reinforced by TV and movies joking about 'headlights' and such. If another classmate noticed and commented? Ouch.
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#85 of 100 Old 08-18-2009, 02:58 AM
 
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1. I know it was incorrect, my parents taught me differently but not everyone has those parents. 2. Every sex ed curriculum is different and every teacher is different.

Genders here don't get seperated except for a one day lesson on respectful dating. Since everyone is learning the same lessons, girls and boys are taught in the same class.

Finally, unless you can give me a good reason why the need to know if DD has started her periond it doesn't matter if she has or not, it's none of their business.
Yes I realize every teacher is different. But we are talking about a span of about 20 years, in three different school, in two different states where they do things the same way.

Maybe they just do things differently in Canada.

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Forgot to mention that some parents have less accepting views of menstruation too. A view they pass on to their kids.
You know. I have never run across this. Honestly. Never ever. I find it extremely odd that parents would have "less accepting views" of something that happens to every girl/woman in the world. The only exception I can think of is someone who has a less accepting view of woman in general... an to be honest.. that has nothing to do with menstruation.
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#86 of 100 Old 08-18-2009, 03:25 AM
 
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Yes I realize every teacher is different. But we are talking about a span of about 20 years, in three different school, in two different states where they do things the same way.

Maybe they just do things differently in Canada.
I know they are. I am astounded by the number of abstinance only sex ed classes there are in the US. That is the one thing I like about how sex is discussed in our schools. Even the one teacher I had who told the class he felt sex was for pro-creation only taught safer sex.

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You know. I have never run across this. Honestly. Never ever. I find it extremely odd that parents would have "less accepting views" of something that happens to every girl/woman in the world. The only exception I can think of is someone who has a less accepting view of woman in general... an to be honest.. that has nothing to do with menstruation.
Obviously you haven't met DH's parents. They are accepting of women, but talking about or giving indication that she is having her period is a big no-no for them. They had the same ideas surrounding male puberty. You just didn't talk about it. Ever. What he did learn was that a woman doing anything that poses a risk of anyone finding out she was "in that time" was not decent.

These people do exist unfortunatly. There is nothing we can do about that expect make sure we don't pass those ideas on to our children ourselves, which is one thing that DH has a hard time with. But so far he has done great in teaching DD that nothing her body does naturally is horrible or wrong.

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#87 of 100 Old 08-18-2009, 03:26 AM
 
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Also I do believe we may have gotten slightly off topic, no?

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#88 of 100 Old 08-18-2009, 03:31 AM
 
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Originally Posted by MusicianDad View Post
I know they are. I am astounded by the number of abstinance only sex ed classes there are in the US. That is the one thing I like about how sex is discussed in our schools. Even the one teacher I had who told the class he felt sex was for pro-creation only taught safer sex.
The abstinence only crap is a Bush Admin thing. I hope to see it go away as fast as it turned up. They didn't teach that garbage when Daddy Bush or even Reagan were in office, and Defiantly not Clinton.
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#89 of 100 Old 08-18-2009, 03:33 AM
 
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I am aware of that too. But it is still a markedly different sex ed then what we have, no matter how temporary. Unfortunatly there are kids out there who's only sex ed comes from those classes and many of them have been found that have factual errors under the mistaken belief that the end justifies the means. :

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#90 of 100 Old 08-18-2009, 03:36 AM
 
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Originally Posted by MusicianDad View Post
I am aware of that too. But it is still a markedly different sex ed then what we have, no matter how temporary. Unfortunatly there are kids out there who's only sex ed comes from those classes and many of them have been found that have factual errors under the mistaken belief that the end justifies the means. :
Yes I know. I demanded the super change the curriculum when I read the book and they were telling kids that they coudln't get HIV or HPV if they did not have premarital sex or do drugs.
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