Help a 17yr old high school guy is interested in my 13 year old? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 92 Old 01-04-2011, 10:46 AM
 
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Those choices are not the sort of thing that 13 year olds are mature enough to take on, sorry. Pregnancy, STDs, HIV. Not to mention the boy being arrested for statutory rape if she changes her mind after the fact or if *anyone* finds out about it. And if you, as her parent, know about it, you can be held as an accomplice. It's happened.

I completely agree with this.  There are numerous studies, showing how the teenage brain is not fully devEloped, that they canNOT make appropriate decisions at times.  And this could be the MOST important decision of her life so far; whether to go all the way with a boy that has NO business with her anyhow.  I really wouldn't let my dd (14 in 9th grade) even be in the position to have to make this type of decision.  They just aren't capable.  And yeah , here's the big white elephant in the room: STATUTORY RAPE, DATE RAPE, it happens *all* the time :(
 


Again, I feel it is a gigantic leap to go from test messages to the OP's DD being forced to make a decision about whether she wants to be sexually active. Girls do not sleep with every boy with whom they text, no mattter what the age of the boy.

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#62 of 92 Old 01-04-2011, 04:00 PM
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Those choices are not the sort of thing that 13 year olds are mature enough to take on, sorry. Pregnancy, STDs, HIV. Not to mention the boy being arrested for statutory rape if she changes her mind after the fact or if *anyone* finds out about it. And if you, as her parent, know about it, you can be held as an accomplice. It's happened.

I completely agree with this.  There are numerous studies, showing how the teenage brain is not fully devEloped, that they canNOT make appropriate decisions at times.  And this could be the MOST important decision of her life so far; whether to go all the way with a boy that has NO business with her anyhow.  I really wouldn't let my dd (14 in 9th grade) even be in the position to have to make this type of decision.  They just aren't capable.  And yeah , here's the big white elephant in the room: STATUTORY RAPE, DATE RAPE, it happens *all* the time :(
 


Again, I feel it is a gigantic leap to go from test messages to the OP's DD being forced to make a decision about whether she wants to be sexually active. Girls do not sleep with every boy with whom they text, no mattter what the age of the boy.



Exactly.  (Agreeing with Choli.) 

 

If you don't want her to have sex, then don't turn this guy into the "forbidden fruit."  Make it ok for him to come over, have dinner with the family, and play board games, or whatever innocuous family fun you want to invite him to.

 


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#63 of 92 Old 01-05-2011, 06:31 PM
 
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FWIW, when I was 14, I put my parents through the same thing when I snuck out of the house in the middle of the night to hang out with a 19yo who I had a HUGE crush on. He never tried a single thing. I reconnected with him on FB last year and we had a good laugh over how much I "loved" him back then! So, he may not be a guy after her virginity here. It may really just be a friendship with a crush on her end of things. Maybe it's an ego-boost for him. Regardless, open communication! Tell her what your hopes are for her current and future relationships. I wish my parents sat me down and did this. I ended up pregnant at 19 (with my now 11yo dd) with a boy they hated and I had to lie to date. We lasted 3 years. :( I honestly believe that if my parents cared enough to sit me down and talk with me, I probably would have made different choices for myself and now current dc. I understand fully why they hated him. I just wish they told me why at the time. They didn't. They just flipped out and forbade me from seeing him. 


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#64 of 92 Old 02-07-2011, 06:05 PM
 
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Speaking as a girl who met her future DH at 14, and who had an age-gap big enough to bother her parents... I wouldn't forbid the relationship altogether. Honestly, if she has any sort of freedom (going to school, swim team, out with friends, etc) she *is* going to see him, whether you know it or not.

 

But I think it's totally fair to set limits that you are comfortable with. It helped my parents a lot to have future-DH over to our house. They saw he was a good guy, and of course we were in a family setting. After a time, it upgraded to me being able to do things with his family, and us being able to do things in groups.

Frankly, if he is willing to come over to your place and be a part of even the boring or hard-work family days, knowing she isn't allowed to go alone with him until she is 16 or something, and is content to see her in a group, he is probably a decent guy. If he only wanted one thing, there are very sadly much easier ways than to help your DH paint a room and eat dinner with you all before you play Monopoly, yk?

 

If you aren't okay with the cell phone thing, there is so much you can do. Change her number, call the company and ask for a detailed bill that shows every call (we get that every month), take away texting, etc, etc. 

 

But just saying, as a former teenager, that forbiding completely, short of locking her in her closet, probably isn't going to be very effective.

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#65 of 92 Old 03-08-2011, 02:35 PM
 
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I agree with many others that you might be a little too harsh with her.  Just because she's 13 doesn't mean she's not a person. Try to see behind her eyes.  haven't you ever had a crush that you couldn't get rid of?  I have, and it's miserable!  Telling her she can't hang out with the guy anymore is like telling her she can't eat!  Even though you're doing it for her own good, she will not feel loved by this action.  If I were you, I'd tackle this on three fronts. 

1) your own feelings.  Is 4 years really too big a difference for you, or is it more that you think she's not old enough to date?  Are you bringing your own personal issues into this in any way?  What are you afraid of, really?  Once that's all clear in your mind and heart, the next step is

2) Her logic.  As others have said, you should have an honest heart-to-heart with your precious daughter.  Use this as an opportunity to talk about where you both stand on relationships in general, as well as this specific relationship.  See if you can work through with her whether or not it's really a good idea for them to date each other and why/why not.  Of course, if logic tells her that this isn't the guy for her (or that it's simply nt the right time to be involved in a relationship), that does nothing to help her with her feelings.  So next is

3) Her feelings.  I recently came across an article that I WISH I had had 10 years ago!  http://joegoldfarb.com/awareness/why-we-have-crushes  Basically, the psychological reason a person gets crushes is that there is an unrecognized aspect of the self that needs attention and love, seen reflected in the crush. 

An activity I have started doing (I'm one who crushes easily) is this:  If I determine that I don't really, logically, want this crush in my life, I make a list of all the things that are attracting me to him.  Then with each one, I actively recognize that this is a part of myself and express gratitude for it. 

Example:  -> He is very friendly and outgoing (whereas I tend to be an introvert)  (then I tell myself:) "I am grateful for the fact that people and social relationships are important to me.  I love that I am sensitive to the people around me."

-> He is tall with dark hair  (then I tell myself:) "Tall people with dark hair exude confidence and mystique.  I love that I am a confident person, with a mystique that I and others find alluring."

I've found that doing this exercise changes the misery and clinginess of a crush into a simply fantastic feeling, and the crush goes away in a few days!!!!

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#66 of 92 Old 03-09-2011, 04:59 AM
 
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It doesn't seem right to take her phone when she hasn't really done anything wrong. Just be aware of what your kid is doing. Then, ff you actually catch her in the act of doing something wrong, punish her.

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#67 of 92 Old 03-12-2011, 08:47 AM
 
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 The vast majority of 13 year olds are not capable of fully thinking through consequences of their actions which is why they still need rules...like no dating a 17 year old.

 

This comment is what it's all about - you need to know your teen and her maturity level and make sure she's educated in her choices and in her body.

 

I was a 13 y/o freshman when I lost my virginity. I did it knowing full well the consequences of sex. I knew I was prepared and ready for it. I had even gone down to our local family planning clinic and put myself on birth control. I insisted on condoms each and every time. I feel that it's no surprise that I was the only one of my group of friends to not end up pregnant during or right after high school. My mother didn't find out until I was 16 about all of this, but she knew early on that I could be trusted not to make stupid decisions.

 

My first boyfriend was an 18 year old senior. We were up front and honest about the age difference to both sets of parents. The school even called my mother to tell her that I was dating an 18 y/o and she said they were shocked to know that we had already told our parents In fact, I only dated older guys, because guys my age were dumb and immature. My parents knew that if they forbade me to see the guys I was dating, that they would only drive me to sneaking around and lying. But the key point was that they trusted me. They gave me limits, which I tested from time to time, but I respected that they gave me those limits.

 

I'm not sure where I'm going with all of this, but you should examine your trust and comfort level with your daughter and her choices. Is she someone who is responsible, trustworthy, etc.? Does she have the knowledge to protect herself from the consequences of any possible sexual activity? Have you gotten to know this boy at all? We all can sit here and give you all the advice in the world, but it all comes down to you and your relationship with your daughter. Good luck and I hope things turn out well for you and your family.


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#68 of 92 Old 03-12-2011, 12:32 PM
 
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This may not go over well on this board, but I'ma throw it out there anyway.

 

When I was younger I had a thing for older guys and my older brother couldn't get through to me. So, despite the short term damage to our relationship, he made sure I would be safe. He's not a big guy, nor were his friends, so he would just grab random intimidating looking guys off the street. You explain the situation to them and most guys are happy to help. He'd take this pack of guys to have a talk with my older bf. It usually went something like "Hi. I'm Incorrigible's older brother, and these are some of my friends. I just want to make sure you understand that if you so much as look at her longingly, we're going to beat you within an inch of your life...and then have you arrested. Are we clear? Good."

 

I did eventually lose my virginity. To a really sweet guy my own age that I'm still in touch with and respect as much as he does me. I didn't do anything truly stupid (despite my best efforts) until I was 17-18, and that phase was short lived because by then I had enough perspective to see how stupid I was being and move on.

 

This method TOTALLY FAILS if mom does it though. Dad, maybe, but not mom.

 

All that getting to know the boy and supervising them n stuff really does sound like good ideas. I totally plan to employ them myself. (while at the same time turning a blind eye to DS having private talks with the boys when needed. I believe in non-violent parenting, but I don't believe in holding anything back when it comes to defending my children from the outside world.)


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#69 of 92 Old 03-19-2011, 11:08 AM
 
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I would contact his parents and show them the text messages and let them know if anymore come through, you will go to the police.

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#70 of 92 Old 03-19-2011, 02:34 PM
 
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You could also always just change your dd's cell phone number too...



That doesn't make sense to me - dd could easily give the guy her new number.

 

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What is wrong with a 13 year old waiting outside (even if it's cold) for 30 minutes?  I honestly don't see anything wrong with this at all.  Kids need to learn that sometimes you have to wait, sometimes the conditions are not perfect, and that the world doesn't always revolve around them and their schedule.  This is an example of the kind of entitlement that I'm trying to steer dd away from.  She can be inconvenienced sometimes.  I will inconvenienced sometimes.  It's part of REAL life.



Yes, this!

 

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In the spirit of full disclosure , I too was a young teen dating an older guy (14-19). I am quite certain if she had only listened to me and gotten to know him, she would have realized I had it more together than anyone gave me credit for and he was in no way taking advantage of me. I still talk to him fairly regularly and am very proud of the choices I made at 14 - picking a guy who still respects me 20 years later – despite my mother’s absolute convection this guy was nothing but a predator and that our relationship was inappropriate.

 

To sum up, my advice would be to tread lightly, respect your daughter's feelings, and make an informed decision on their 'friendship' because you could be saving her, or you could not be. Either way, with this subject you are laying the groundwork for the rest of your adult relationship with her.


I dated an 18 year old when I was 14, and he was one of the most respectful/least pushy guys I ever spent time with (the other was 27 when I was 18).  I am also friends with them now, all these years later - and also like Jessnet 100% good with the choices I made then.  I made less than stellar choices in high school with a guy my own age.  I just don't think a four year age difference means much of anything at all truthfully.  It depends on the people involved.
 

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Sorry I wasn't clear.  Yes, she was stuck outside at school.  Yes, it was cold, but not dangerously so.  She was in 8th grade at the time.  The shopping trip did not take as long as expected and they arrived at school early.  There were a few other students as well, but they couldn't get into the school.  No, there's nothing inherently WRONG with being stuck waiting outside for half an hour, but it's no fun.  I do not in any way consider it "entitlement" to not want to wait around for half an hour for my ride.  When I, as an adult, am finished early with something and have to wait for my ride to come get me, (such as when I would fly for work and my plane would land early) I would absolutely call them when I landed so they could come get me early.  Entitlement, IMO, is expecting to be allowed to use someone else's phone if I needed to contact someone, since payphones are quickly disappearing.


Waiting 30 minutes is mildly annoying.  Asking to use a classmate's phone is not entitlement; it is a reasonable request, and my teen has done it many times when her phone was forgotten or out of battery.  That said, I do think kids of middle school/high school age can reasonably have cell phones.  My dd1 got one when she started 7th grade, and the school was in a neighboring town and she did a variety of after school activities that - like in your example - sometimes ended earlier or later than expected.  I don't think the 13 year old in this situation has done anything that requires her cell phone to be taken away - although to be fair, we don't know what the texts said. 
 

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I understand the OPs concern but think he might be given a chance.  Get to know the boy.  Is he honorable?  Sure they do think about sex but love is what love is.  And dating in her age group ... 13 year old males are not all pure thoughts, flowers and butterflies.  There will be predator boys and there will be good boyfriend material throughout this adolescent period.

 

Find out his intentions.  Is he willing to do chaperoned dating and respect limits? 



This is exactly what I think too.  Another 13 year old might be much riskier for your dd than the 17 year old!  I have found that to be true in my own teen years.  A 27 year old texting your 13 year old - problem.  A 17 year old texting your 10 year old - problem.  17 and 13 - no inherent problem in my book.

 

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I would contact his parents and show them the text messages and let them know if anymore come through, you will go to the police.


This seems like a huge overreaction.  And a quick way to ruin your relationship with your teen daughter. 
 

 

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#71 of 92 Old 03-26-2011, 04:40 PM
 
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OP, any update?  How are things going?

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#72 of 92 Old 03-27-2011, 12:47 AM
 
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Hi, this is a difficult and scary situation, i have 5 boys so i am on the other side of this coin.  Get to know the boys parents/family, see what their standards are.  Talk to your daughter about different relations and what each age group gets out of that relationship. Invite the boy over to your house instead of meeting at his house or out and let him know how you feel.  Good luckwink1.gif

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#73 of 92 Old 03-27-2011, 11:35 AM
 
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13 isn't so young and 17 isn't so old, in my opinion.  When I was 13, we were all acutely aware of sex and about half of the kids in my grade 7 class were sexually active (with other 13 year olds).  What makes a dangerous situation is secrecy.  When I was 13 (heck, until I was 18!) I wasn't allowed to date.  FORBIDDEN.  No phone calls, no dates, no talking to boys period.  So I did it in secret and I lied to my parents about what I was doing.  This could have been a bad situation for me had it not been for my boyfriends parents.  They trusted their sons enough and invited me to their house to spend time, even taking me to my bf's ballgames or on our dates (those were unsupervised--you have to allow some privacy and freedom imo).  Even my now DH was 24 when I first met him, when I was 16.  My dad wanted to kill him (but didn't stop us from talking-he just watched closely).

 

My DSD is 11 and not interested in boys yet, but when the time comes I want her to be able to trust me to talk to me.  I want her to have a safe experience building relationships with the opposite sex and exploring her own identity and sexuality (not necessarily to have sex, but that would be her choice).

 

The problem here is (from what I gathered from the OP) is that it isn't known whether they are starting/in a relationship!  Jumping the gun because of an age gap?  Let them be friends, but supervise it and keep an open relationship with your daughter.  Invite the kid over and get to know him.


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#74 of 92 Old 03-27-2011, 12:03 PM
 
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I'm another who thinks it could easily just be friendship. I had plenty of older male friends at that age and none of them did anything even remotely romantic/sexual with me. When I did start dating (15 or so), almost every guy I dated was at least 4 years older than me (when I was 15, my bf was 19, when I was 16, I dated a 21 year old) and they were respectful and (as others have said) way less pushy than boys my own age who were so focused on losing their own virginity that they couldn't think of anything else. The older guys weren't virgins, but since they had BTDT they knew what sex was and what it wasn't - it wasn't something mysterious to "achieve" anymore - and they weren't interested in talking me/pushing me into doing anything I didn't want to do. When I did have sex for the first time, it actually ended up being with someone about a year younger than me - my mom forbidding me from being friends with/dating guys outside of a narrow age range wouldn't have made any difference as to when I became sexually active, unless her forbidding me actually ended up pushing me into doing things that I otherwise wouldn't out of rebellion. I was a pretty quietly rebellious kid, and for those types I think "forbidding" is very dangerous, indeed. I pretty much did everything my mother told me I was never, under any circumstances, to do - and she never knew about any of them.
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#75 of 92 Old 03-27-2011, 05:33 PM
 
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Im still surprised that most people seem to think the only problem is her being pressured into something. I have a 13 year old and I would be completely unsurprised if she was the pushy one. When I was young statutory rape was not prosecuted that often and the sex offender laws were much different. As the mother of boys I worry a lot about this issue. I was watching lisa ling's piece on sex offenders recently and one of the people she was interviewing was convicted of statutory rape at 18 for consensual sex with a 14 year old. That is not a pedophile to me and its somethingthat could happen to a lot of people.
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#76 of 92 Old 04-04-2011, 08:14 AM
 
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I would tell him, very casually, that if I ever saw, or even heard of him doing anything inappropriate with my daughter, I would have him arrested for statutory rape. I know a lot of people are being open minded and stuff, but 17 and 13 is an enormous difference - emotionally, physically, everything just doesn't match up. Of course, there are always exceptions to this, but I personally wouldn't be willing to bet my daughters well-being on that. So (1) meet the guy, see if he's trustworthy, (2) kindly hint at statch rape arrest if you need to, (3) tell his coach/parents that you're worried without offending anyone, (4) have a conversation with your daughter about why you're worried. I agree with not turning the guy into a forbidden pleasure, but make sure there is a network of people looking out for your daughter. You can't trust a thirteen year-old to look out for themselves all the time. 

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#77 of 92 Old 04-04-2011, 09:00 AM
 
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unfortunately I feel like it is so inevitable for teens to loose it now...the pressure to is ridiculous (at 14 I had guys and friends telling me to just give it up already...) You can absolutely try and support her and encourage her to wait but mostly explain the safe ways to do it...even orally and all of that...b/c teens are doing it all the time...


 

It's not at all inevitable. I have two teens - 19 & 17. My 19yo? Was not sexually active until he went to college. I don't know, but believe he is now. Not at all shocking. As far as I know, of his friends in HS (guys and girls)? Maybe 2 were. One of each. My 17yo? Is not sexually active, nor are any but one of her close friends. She knows kids who are, but they're not good friends of hers. And no, I'm not deluding myself. She's very open with me, and she's told me that  neither she nor her b/f are ready. And she knows that, when she is, the decision is hers and I will make sure she is protected. So no, it is not inevitable that teens - 13 or older - will have sex. Some teens will. Some won't.

 

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#78 of 92 Old 04-04-2011, 02:47 PM
 
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I would tell him, very casually, that if I ever saw, or even heard of him doing anything inappropriate with my daughter, I would have him arrested for statutory rape. I know a lot of people are being open minded and stuff, but 17 and 13 is an enormous difference - emotionally, physically, everything just doesn't match up. Of course, there are always exceptions to this, but I personally wouldn't be willing to bet my daughters well-being on that. So (1) meet the guy, see if he's trustworthy, (2) kindly hint at statch rape arrest if you need to, (3) tell his coach/parents that you're worried without offending anyone, (4) have a conversation with your daughter about why you're worried. I agree with not turning the guy into a forbidden pleasure, but make sure there is a network of people looking out for your daughter. You can't trust a thirteen year-old to look out for themselves all the time. 


Its this. People who think its acceptable to use our horrific criminal justice system to control teen sexuality scare the crap out of me.

Btw- how do you KINDLY threaten the ruination or loss (considering the rates of ACTUAL RAPE of very young men as well as the rates of HIV and hepatitis in prison) of a teens life?
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#79 of 92 Old 04-05-2011, 09:16 AM
 
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Wow people keep going back to the cell phone. I think it's a dead issue. You don't need a cell phone to sneak around or do anything you are not supposed to do. I do think blocking pics is a good idea with the recent issues of kids being exploited by sexting.

 

I agree with the commenter that said to apologize for snooping. It is hard to admit you've made a mistake but I think it will totally earn your daughters respect & open up the lines of communication as you care about her feelings. It also sets a good example as you wouldn't want her snooping in what you consider private. It shows that you respect her and trust her. I think the worst thing you could do is to continue to snoop in her stuff, it will only bring you farther apart & teach her not to trust you & to be more sneaky. It also shows her that you think little of her ability to make choice. She is only 13 but you should give her some credit & trust her judgement to some degree. Even if you don't trust her I would act like you did. lol. Meeting the boy is a great idea & if they aren't good for each other they will get bored of each other quickly. Forcing her to sneak around to see him only makes the relationship more exciting than it really is. Let her know you are there for her & that you maybe shouldn't have jump to conclusions the way you did. I really wish my mom had been more open with me as a teen. I had a friend's mom take me to Family Planning. Sad, when you are closer to your friend's mom than your own but I didn't feel like i could talk to her about anything like that. Luckily I did have a good head on my shoulders but it would have been nice to have that kind of relationship. Give her some ability to make choices on her own or she will find a way to whether you like it or not. I don't think there's anything wrong with the boy coming over for dinner or to watch a movie. Opening up communication now is the best thing you can do...most likely he won't be the only boy you will worry about, this is only the first & is probably very innocent. This could be a positive learning experience for both of you.

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#80 of 92 Old 04-05-2011, 09:59 AM
 
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I would tell him, very casually, that if I ever saw, or even heard of him doing anything inappropriate with my daughter, I would have him arrested for statutory rape. I know a lot of people are being open minded and stuff, but 17 and 13 is an enormous difference - emotionally, physically, everything just doesn't match up. Of course, there are always exceptions to this, but I personally wouldn't be willing to bet my daughters well-being on that. So (1) meet the guy, see if he's trustworthy, (2) kindly hint at statch rape arrest if you need to, (3) tell his coach/parents that you're worried without offending anyone, (4) have a conversation with your daughter about why you're worried. I agree with not turning the guy into a forbidden pleasure, but make sure there is a network of people looking out for your daughter. You can't trust a thirteen year-old to look out for themselves all the time. 




Its this. People who think its acceptable to use our horrific criminal justice system to control teen sexuality scare the crap out of me.

Btw- how do you KINDLY threaten the ruination or loss (considering the rates of ACTUAL RAPE of very young men as well as the rates of HIV and hepatitis in prison) of a teens life?


Exactly how is a 17 year old being sexually involved with a 13 year old legal here? Isn't sexual interaction between someone who can consent and someone who cannot consent considered rape? Perhaps you don't have issues with rape or molestation, but there are protections in the form of "laws" which serve to protect a party who cannot consent, does not consent, or is unable to consent. Just because you feel you have some profound wisdom which overrides penal code doesn't mean that the rest of society, or the executive branch for that matter, will accept your (I'm certain) soundly reasoned levity. I'd also love for you to define "ACTUAL RAPE." Is rape only physical act to you? Do reject all conceptions of mental manipulation regarding rape as a whole? Date rape, where a man gets a woman drunk only to take advantage of her, is not "ACTUAL RAPE"? It's these shallow minded, hypocritical, prophets of ignorance that scare me. 

 

Also, in writing, there is this thing called tone which refers to the speakers voice. By understanding the tone (playful, sarcastic, ect.) one understands more than just the base, simplistic meaning behind the words. A modifier, such as "kindly" in this case, provides an ironic contradiction and helps create the tone of the writing. People who read regularly often find this easier to detect. Hence (now that we know what tone does), we can infer that the "kindly" refers to a lack of seriousness, or an empty threat which has no intention of being carried out, unless in the most extreme circumstances. 

 

I am aware of the horrors of the prison system; you don't need to read Foucault to realize that something is horribly wrong there. I'm also aware that having sex with a 13 year old, who would probably die if she had to give birth, is horribly wrong. You might say in your blustery, confused defense, "But no one said they were having sex!" Exactly, I would respond. That is exactly why I said it was important to make sure that the 17 year old who has the hots for a 13 year old girl is both trustworthy and being supervised. Do you see how in every situation involving reporting the kid for statutory rape there is an "if" clause attached? Like, "if" he raped her? I did not advocate sending him to prison immediately. One would have to be quite. . . unequipped with the faculties of common sense to come to that conclusion. 

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#81 of 92 Old 04-05-2011, 12:46 PM
 
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A 13 year old would probably die if she had to give birth? What?
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#82 of 92 Old 04-05-2011, 01:07 PM
 
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Exactly how is a 17 year old being sexually involved with a 13 year old legal here? Isn't sexual interaction between someone who can consent and someone who cannot consent considered rape? Perhaps you don't have issues with rape or molestation, but there are protections in the form of "laws" which serve to protect a party who cannot consent, does not consent, or is unable to consent. Just because you feel you have some profound wisdom which overrides penal code doesn't mean that the rest of society, or the executive branch for that matter, will accept your (I'm certain) soundly reasoned levity. I'd also love for you to define "ACTUAL RAPE." Is rape only physical act to you? Do reject all conceptions of mental manipulation regarding rape as a whole? Date rape, where a man gets a woman drunk only to take advantage of her, is not "ACTUAL RAPE"? It's these shallow minded, hypocritical, prophets of ignorance that scare me. 

 

Also, in writing, there is this thing called tone which refers to the speakers voice. By understanding the tone (playful, sarcastic, ect.) one understands more than just the base, simplistic meaning behind the words. A modifier, such as "kindly" in this case, provides an ironic contradiction and helps create the tone of the writing. People who read regularly often find this easier to detect. Hence (now that we know what tone does), we can infer that the "kindly" refers to a lack of seriousness, or an empty threat which has no intention of being carried out, unless in the most extreme circumstances. 

 

I am aware of the horrors of the prison system; you don't need to read Foucault to realize that something is horribly wrong there. I'm also aware that having sex with a 13 year old, who would probably die if she had to give birth, is horribly wrong. You might say in your blustery, confused defense, "But no one said they were having sex!" Exactly, I would respond. That is exactly why I said it was important to make sure that the 17 year old who has the hots for a 13 year old girl is both trustworthy and being supervised. Do you see how in every situation involving reporting the kid for statutory rape there is an "if" clause attached? Like, "if" he raped her? I did not advocate sending him to prison immediately. One would have to be quite. . . unequipped with the faculties of common sense to come to that conclusion. 


I don't buy for one minute the idea that a 13 yr old cannot consent - of course she can. The inability to consent is an arbitrary legal construct.

 

13 yr olds give birth all the time, it is not fatal.

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#83 of 92 Old 04-05-2011, 01:36 PM
 
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A 13-year-old can consent but there is a reason for statutory rape laws. 13-year-olds are impressionable. The average relationship at this age is 3 months. 3 MONTHS. They don't know squat about relationships. They are at the peak of their insecurity and some will do anything to feel loved or accepted. Their sense of mortality isn't yet developed and most still live in the "it could never happen to me" world. Did you know that 5 times as many junior high births are a result to these girls coupling with adult males? Absolutely, a 13-year-old can say "yes" but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be protected from older teens and adult males who know that an insecure girl at this age can be an easy target.


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#84 of 92 Old 04-05-2011, 01:44 PM
 
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A 13-year-old can consent but there is a reason for statutory rape laws. 13-year-olds are impressionable. The average relationship at this age is 3 months. 3 MONTHS. They don't know squat about relationships. They are at the peak of their insecurity and some will do anything to feel loved or accepted. Their sense of mortality isn't yet developed and most still live in the "it could never happen to me" world. Did you know that 5 times as many junior high births are a result to these girls coupling with adult males? Absolutely, a 13-year-old can say "yes" but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be protected from older teens and adult males who know that an insecure girl at this age can be an easy target.


 


5 times as many as what?

 

I have serious issues with those "protections", but I will admit that I do not have a solution to the problem.

 

I do think the suggestion to threaten someone with a false charge of statutory rape if they've been "inappropriate" with the OP's daughter is way over the top. I presume "inappropriate" did not mean sex, or that would have been stated.


 

 

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#85 of 92 Old 04-05-2011, 02:32 PM
 
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Modmom-

I realize that sex between underage people with more than a 2-3 year age difference is illegal or I wouldn't be warning that there are people who find it appropriate to use that unfortunate law to control teen sexuality. I do not consider statory rape to be actual rape and I think the fact that it is prosecuted with real sex crimes cheapens and makes sex offender controls less effective. The punishment so grossly outweighs the crime that I think it should be taken completely away. My response was for the people posting that they engaged in similar relationships and don't necessarily. See the harm. I agree but there are people who think it would be appropriate to send someone to prison for hears and have them stuck in our sex offender system. Once the ball is rolling the parent cannot stop it or miigate the consequences.

I get you tone and your intent I just find them repulsive.
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#86 of 92 Old 04-06-2011, 12:26 PM
 
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First, thanks for everyone that has shared their views on this topic.  It has been really interesting to read through them.  I hope we can keep it respectful even though there are some pretty strong feelings.
 

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My sympathies.  My then 12.5 year old dd went to a summer music camp last summer and had a very similar thing happen with a 16.5 year old boy.  In our house, the kids are not allowed to date at that age, period, let alone a guy who is that much older.  I don't believe for a minute that the guys just want to be friends.  It's creepy.  I had just given dd a cell phone for her birthday, right before camp, and they were texting up a storm.  He did want to go out with her and asked her to movies, etc., which we did not allow to happen.


When DP & I went to college we were shocked to find out that one of his younger brother's new best friends was a guy who had been in class with DP.  So, this was a 19 year old hanging out with a 14 year old.  We thought it was creepy and that *something* must be up. At BIL's next birthday it was just the family plus this guy and we realized he was just really, really immature.  They were both into drama (acting), video games, beavis & butthead, etc...  There is such a wide variety  of maturity levels in this age range.

 

On the other side, I was a fairly mature 17 year old when I became good friends with a boy three years younger.  He definately was crushing on me, but I was certainly never going to take it anywhere BUT I also got a lot out of the relationship.  Not every relationship needs to be a meeting of the souls, kwim?  He was fun, funny & a serious ego boost.   I would hate to think his parents thought it was creepy that I was wanted to hang out with him, kwim.
 

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I was 14 dating a 17 year old (and we quickly both turned 15 & 18), my parents hated the age gap, especially since he was done with high school. We didn't have cellphones, they forbid me from seeing him when I was 16. I still saw him, for 9 months I was grounded from him and still saw him almost daily. I got into far more trouble when I was sneaking around.
 

 

This touches on my concern with forbidding things.  It also makes it *impossible* for the child to get help if they get in a bad situation.  If they are going behind your back to do something "illegal" then they don't have an adult they can talk about it with--- because no matter what they'll get in trouble for it.  I really hope that my kids feel like I am there for them no matter what, kwim.

 

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13 isn't so young and 17 isn't so old, in my opinion. 

 


The more kids I know the more I see this to be true.

 

DD ended up being very young for her grade and DS is very old for his grade.  I see this "problem" hitting from both directions.  When we were considering what grade to put DD in I was *very* concerned with what would happen when she was a freshman in a district with higher than average retention and red-shirting.  She will go to a four-year high school (9th) grade when she is only 13.  Meanwhile, DS will turn 18 before he starts his senior year of high school.  I felt a lot of fear about DD being exposed to those "men"--- there will be students literally 5-6 years older then her.  But now I think of my DS and it just breaks my heart that there are other parents out there thinking that about *him.*  Now, at 9, he still gets along well with kids younger than him.  His best friend just turned 8.  I can totally see him being 17-18 and having a lot of 14 year old friends.  I hope that their parents are more open minded than I have been in the past :(
 


 

 

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#87 of 92 Old 04-06-2011, 01:15 PM
 
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13 year olds are raging with hormones and tend to blow things out of proportion. I was a camp counselor for girls ages 12-14 and their worlds were only about boys. If you trust that your daughter is intelligent and educated about her age, boundaries, body, and sexual relationships she will back down if it ever came to her being propositioned. She needs to feel seen in the eyes of the male species right now and unfortunately if you get really upset with her her imagination will run wild and she'll want him even more. That doesn't mean they're going to have sex, not if she fully understands what that entails, and not if she has as much self confidence as a 13 year old can have. Let them talk, let her figure it out. But make sure she understands what it all might lead into. Now is the time to be reinforcing her with positive sexual education so that she can make informed choices. 

 

 

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#88 of 92 Old 04-07-2011, 10:50 AM
 
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A 13 year old would probably die if she had to give birth? What?

 

Wait, it's shocking that there are health complications in teen births? A 13 year old who hasn't finished physically developing is much more likely to die than a mother who is physically mature.

 

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I don't buy for one minute the idea that a 13 yr old cannot consent - of course she can. The inability to consent is an arbitrary legal construct.

 

13 yr olds give birth all the time, it is not fatal.


Are we going to get into a semantical debate here? Obviously, she can say physically speak the word "yes." The mistake is in believing that she is mentally capable of deciding whether she should have sex, or in believing that she is impervious to pressuring from an older party. Of course the idea of consent is a construct, but it's a social construct rather than a purely legal one. All of our society is constructed; reality is what we perceive, what meaning we give to the physical world which we interact with daily. The idea of childhood innocence, that children are different in some ways from adults, is a relatively new social construction, coming about in the last few hundred years during the Early Modern era. You would have fit in quite well with 14th century thought. I'm curious to see if you identify yourself as progressive, since you seem to be intrinsically opposed to the basis of progressivism, modern secular reason.

 

To think that a 13 year old is mature enough to have sex is to ignore both hard science and social science. The brain is not fully developed physically, impacting rational thought, and neither is the body, which leads to this:

 

"Risks for medical complications are greater for girls 14 years of age and younger, as an underdeveloped pelvis can lead to difficulties in childbirth. Obstructed labour is normally dealt with by Caesarean section in industrialized nations; however, in developing regions where medical services might be unavailable, it can lead to eclampsiaobstetric fistula,infant mortality, or maternal death.[4] For mothers in their late teens, age in itself is not a risk factor, and poor outcomes are associated more with socioeconomic factors rather than with biology.[5]"

 

The social sciences have also shown negative effects:

 

"However, in a Kaiser Family Foundation study of US teenagers, 29% of teens reported feeling pressure to have sex, 33% of sexually active teens reported "being in a relationship where they felt things were moving too fast sexually", and 24% had "done something sexual they didn’t really want to do".[23]"

 

This is a situation where you have to trust scientific research in order to bring valid points to an argument. If you're someone who denies global warming, thinks the earth was created 6,000 years ago, or believes financial regulation is unnecessary, there isn't much anyone can do for you.

 

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Modmom-

I realize that sex between underage people with more than a 2-3 year age difference is illegal or I wouldn't be warning that there are people who find it appropriate to use that unfortunate law to control teen sexuality. I do not consider statory rape to be actual rape and I think the fact that it is prosecuted with real sex crimes cheapens and makes sex offender controls less effective. The punishment so grossly outweighs the crime that I think it should be taken completely away. My response was for the people posting that they engaged in similar relationships and don't necessarily. See the harm. I agree but there are people who think it would be appropriate to send someone to prison for hears and have them stuck in our sex offender system. Once the ball is rolling the parent cannot stop it or miigate the consequences.

I get you tone and your intent I just find them repulsive.


I wonder if you'd let your 13 year-old daughter date a 17 year-old when it really came down to it. You know, we should test this. I know it's not a perfect situation, but if you have a child with roughly the same age difference to me, I challenge you to send them over. Maybe I could show them a thing or two. Of course, that's only if they consent. You'd better hope they don't find me physically attractive!

 

I don't think you really understand my intent, though. The concept of statutory rape really comes down to an arbitrary set of numbers that reflect nothing but a possible baseline for hypothetical actions. In my mind, sex between a 17 year old and a 16 year old should not warrant a statutory rape charge if both of them are mature enough to handle sex. However, when someone is 4 years younger than the person they're dating, especially at a point where that four year gap makes up nearly a fourth of their life, I begin to see some major issues. You cannot scientifically claim that both of those people are at the same developmental state - mentally or physically. And there is no way you can claim it wouldn't result in an imbalance of power in the relationship, leading to possible pressuring. To claim contrary through an anecdote, saying "I've met a lot of mature 13 year-old girls ready for sex," is ridiculous. If laws were formulated to cover only the most mature or aware segments of a population, 75% of the people would be unprotected. Just out of curiosity, do you consider yourself an anarcho-capitalist?

 

I'm sorry that I have to be the person to bring facts into this debate, but I feel like it has to be done. As a side note, my partner is nearly two years older than I am, and we met when I was 18. 

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#89 of 92 Old 04-07-2011, 11:49 AM
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Just checking in here, with a reminder to treat other posters with courtesy and respect as per our User Agreement.

I think there are a few issues here... one would be the laws regarding giving consent to have sexual intercourse, and their legitimacy (laws which my kid was breaking in our state at 16, FWIW, because her boyfriend was over 5 years older than she was, and in her specific situation I didn't have a problem with it). Is it moral for the state to regulate sexuality? How are these laws similar or dissimilar from laws forbidding sodomy or miscegenation? There's a lot of talk recently about the modern extension of childhood - in some times and countries 14 year old were considered fully adult, but today in the U.S. even 20 year olds really aren't... heck, one could make a case that college undergrads aren't fully adult even at 21 or 22. Are we that much less competent than other societies? Or were other societies inappropriately adultifying children?

Another issue is that of the increased risks associated with giving birth at very young ages, which I think we all agree about.... on the other hand, I think there's a lot of room between "more risky" and "would probably die", and I agree with the former but not the latter.

Just some of my thoughts... and yes, I am a social scientist. wink1.gif

 
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#90 of 92 Old 04-07-2011, 05:40 PM
 
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Wait, it's shocking that there are health complications in teen births? A 13 year old who hasn't finished physically developing is much more likely to die than a mother who is physically mature.

More likely to die than someone who is very unlikely to die does not equal likely to die.

 

Are we going to get into a semantical debate here? Obviously, she can say physically speak the word "yes." The mistake is in believing that she is mentally capable of deciding whether she should have sex, or in believing that she is impervious to pressuring from an older party. Of course the idea of consent is a construct, but it's a social construct rather than a purely legal one. All of our society is constructed; reality is what we perceive, what meaning we give to the physical world which we interact with daily. The idea of childhood innocence, that children are different in some ways from adults, is a relatively new social construction, coming about in the last few hundred years during the Early Modern era. You would have fit in quite well with 14th century thought. I'm curious to see if you identify yourself as progressive, since you seem to be intrinsically opposed to the basis of progressivism, modern secular reason.

I seriously doubt the poster was referring to a 13 year old girls ability to say YES.

 

To think that a 13 year old is mature enough to have sex is to ignore both hard science and social science. The brain is not fully developed physically, impacting rational thought, and neither is the body, which leads to this:

Apparently the brain is not fully developed until 25 and I don't see the age of consent being moved to accomodate that newish tidbit.  The developement of the body varies widely in 13 year olds.  For example, my dd is a couple of years ahead of where I was at 13.

 

"Risks for medical complications are greater for girls 14 years of age and younger, as an underdeveloped pelvis can lead to difficulties in childbirth. Obstructed labour is normally dealt with by Caesarean section in industrialized nations; however, in developing regions where medical services might be unavailable, it can lead to eclampsiaobstetric fistula,infant mortality, or maternal death.[4] For mothers in their late teens, age in itself is not a risk factor, and poor outcomes are associated more with socioeconomic factors rather than with biology.[5]"

 

The social sciences have also shown negative effects:

 

"However, in a Kaiser Family Foundation study of US teenagers, 29% of teens reported feeling pressure to have sex, 33% of sexually active teens reported "being in a relationship where they felt things were moving too fast sexually", and 24% had "done something sexual they didn’t really want to do".[23]"

 

This is a situation where you have to trust scientific research in order to bring valid points to an argument. If you're someone who denies global warming, thinks the earth was created 6,000 years ago, or believes financial regulation is unnecessary, there isn't much anyone can do for you.

None of these have much in common with the attempt to legislate teen sexuality in such an arbitrary and inflexible way.

 


I wonder if you'd let your 13 year-old daughter date a 17 year-old when it really came down to it. You know, we should test this. I know it's not a perfect situation, but if you have a child with roughly the same age difference to me, I challenge you to send them over. Maybe I could show them a thing or two. Of course, that's only if they consent. You'd better hope they don't find me physically attractive!

I have done by best to prevent my dd from dating anyone with more than a 3 year age difference because it would break my heart if someone elses child was charged with statutory rape.  My dd is bi-polar and exhibits hypersexuality as well as developementally appropriate sexual interest in her peers so it gets muddy.  It took me a while of working with her to get her to understand that she couldn't lie about her age just because she felt she was that old and engage in sexual texting/photo exchanges with older teens/grown men.  It is nice for me when she dates people I find enjoyable to be around so I'll pass on the invite.  

 

I don't think you really understand my intent, though. The concept of statutory rape really comes down to an arbitrary set of numbers that reflect nothing but a possible baseline for hypothetical actions. In my mind, sex between a 17 year old and a 16 year old should not warrant a statutory rape charge if both of them are mature enough to handle sex. However, when someone is 4 years younger than the person they're dating, especially at a point where that four year gap makes up nearly a fourth of their life, I begin to see some major issues. You cannot scientifically claim that both of those people are at the same developmental state - mentally or physically. And there is no way you can claim it wouldn't result in an imbalance of power in the relationship, leading to possible pressuring. To claim contrary through an anecdote, saying "I've met a lot of mature 13 year-old girls ready for sex," is ridiculous. If laws were formulated to cover only the most mature or aware segments of a population, 75% of the people would be unprotected. Just out of curiosity, do you consider yourself an anarcho-capitalist?

Sometimes there is an imbalance of power and pressuring and sometimes there is not.  Sometimes the pressuring even comes from the younger partner.  I'm sure there are major issues that occur.  Statutory rape laws are not the same as driving age laws or even drinking laws (which I also think are a bit off) in part because the consequences are so extreme.  People don't get tickets or have to go to counseling or call their parents and go to juvenile court when someone is reported for statutory rape (and this could be by an angry parent or even a mandated reporter in TX if a teen goes to PP for health services they will ask if you are having sex with anyone 3 years older or anyone of the same sex and that they must report it) they go to prison (in my state for a MIN of 2 years) and then they are subject to the sex offender laws.  Using your precentages- I would rather 75% of problematic teen sexual relationships be unlegislated than any young people have their lives senselessly ruined by this law.  ...and no I'm not an anarcho-capitalist I am a libertarian-socialist sympathyzer which translates as a disgruntled, disillusioned social-democrat. 

 

I'm sorry that I have to be the person to bring facts into this debate, but I feel like it has to be done. As a side note, my partner is nearly two years older than I am, and we met when I was 18. 



 

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