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#61 of 103 Old 03-24-2011, 07:14 AM
 
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People are really weird sometimes about what they think is trashy looking.  I buy my daughter skinny jeans because she's tall and skinny and they're long enough and don't fall off her.  They don't look trashy on her.  I'm thankful they exist.  And someone one time posted that sequins are in and of themselves trashy.  So if I buy a modestly cut top with sequins on it, my dd is dressed in a trashy way?  I don't buy it.

 

Padded bras are made for pubescent girls because they mask the breast buds more and some girls feel they are more modest.  I know I did at that age.  And two-piece suits are easier to get on and off if you have to go to the bathroom.

 

I really think we project our own assumptions on some clothes.

 

Also, most kids, male and female, are sexually active in their college years.  Regardless of how they dress.

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#62 of 103 Old 03-24-2011, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post


 


But different people have different ideas about what is "skimpy."  In some cultures, anything less than a burka is skimpy, and yet women are still raped.

 

For years, both my DDs swam competitively, and my extended family, who are fundamentalist Christians, were bothered by the fact that my DDs ran around in swim suits and were around boys wearing swim suits. They believe that there's no way for boys to see girls in swim suits with out being "defrauded."  (These were one-piece racing suits, designed for speed, not looks)

 

 

hug2.gifMy 14 year old is a DDD. She's in 8th grade and still growing. She does her best to dress modestly, usually wears tank tops under her blouses to keep the cleavage to a minimum, but there's really no way to hide that she's a young, beautiful woman with incredable curves. She's a blond bombshell.

 

Thankfully, she goes to a small private school where behavior is carefully monitored by adults, but because short of putting her in a burka, there's no way to hide her figure.
 

(And sadly, she quit competitive swimming when she got boobs. It was such a great sport for her and she was so good at it, but she was just so uncomfortable in her body. )

 

At least your daughter has a mama who is aware of the issues that being curvy with large breasts can bring smile.gif She can look to you for support because something about boobs just drives those adolescent boys wild. DH is a major south park fan and they had a whole episode where all the boys got obsessed with the first girl to get boobs, they were running around like cave men shouting "ATTA" (code for boobs) and drawing pictures of boobs on everything...

 

It's too bad she quit swimming but having been there, I can totally understand why she did, at some point it is impossible to control the obnoxious reaction of others.

 

 

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#63 of 103 Old 03-24-2011, 07:55 AM
 
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I don't think skinny jeans are trashy. They aren't much different from the jeans I wore in high school though we had different names for them. I just hate that girls have so little options. My own DD wears skinny jeans. She's the one body type that looks right in those jeans. She can wear low-rise pants without her butt hanging out. She's small chested and so fitted tops, lower neck-line shirts don't come across as "trashy." She has friends who are just built differently but they are limited to the same style and it doesn't flatter them or makes them look like they are intentionally showing their underwear or trying to have cleavage. It looks like the trends are starting to change a little though. I tease my DD that "grandma" clothes are coming back in style. Lots of old fashioned looking, flowing tops.... much more forgiving and flattering to non-beanpoles.

 

I agree that two pieces are the way to go with swimsuits. We live by the beach and nothing worse than having to get naked in a beach bathroom. Even when my DD was little, we did the tankini thing because it was easier to handle diaper changes and "I have to go NOW" situations.

 

 

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People are really weird sometimes about what they think is trashy looking.  I buy my daughter skinny jeans because she's tall and skinny and they're long enough and don't fall off her.  They don't look trashy on her.  I'm thankful they exist.  And someone one time posted that sequins are in and of themselves trashy.  So if I buy a modestly cut top with sequins on it, my dd is dressed in a trashy way?  I don't buy it.

 

Padded bras are made for pubescent girls because they mask the breast buds more and some girls feel they are more modest.  I know I did at that age.  And two-piece suits are easier to get on and off if you have to go to the bathroom.

 

I really think we project our own assumptions on some clothes.

 

Also, most kids, male and female, are sexually active in their college years.  Regardless of how they dress.



 


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#64 of 103 Old 03-24-2011, 10:32 AM
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This has been a very interesting read.  

 

I note that no one at any time, has discussed how teen boys dress. What would a teen boy have to wear to be looked at as slutty? Or looking to get laid? Or having someone tell them they are responsible for the remarks people make about them? Hell, what would any man have to wear to get labeled as any of these things?  I honestly couldn't think of anything.

 

I guess that's my gauge for when an article is coming from a wildly sexist point of view, when the resulting article sounds ridiculous when you put in male instead of female.  

 

And yet, walking around town, I have seen more of many teen boys than I have of girls.  If your pants are below your butt and your boxers are see through, you are effectively walking around with your backside out.  I see this all the time and no one bats an eye or ever tells the boy they are inviting comments, leers or even assault by dressing this way. I recently say a boy walking down the street with belt and fly open, hands in pockets clearly holding his pants up, but in no way trying to fix the situation.  He was with friends as well, and none of them seemed concerned. 

 

The problem here is not how we let our daughters dress, but how we teach everyone to react to that. 


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#65 of 103 Old 03-24-2011, 10:54 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Adina, great point.  I'll just say that people do figuratively bat their eyes plenty at guys sagging their pants.

 


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#66 of 103 Old 03-24-2011, 12:22 PM
 
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We're not talking about boys because that's not what the article was about. Certainly, we can talk boys if you want. Boys that dress too nice or wear clothes that are too fitted are often viewed as gay. This makes dressing this way far less appealing to boys than to girls who are simultaneously berated and praised for looking sexy.

 

Personally, I've told my nephew to pull their pants up many times. I'm certainly not going to walk around with a kid whose rear is hanging out. Gross. You want to look like that with your buddies, whatever. If you want to interview for a job, meet a girl's father for the first time, ect... get a belt.

 

 

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Originally Posted by AdinaL View Post

This has been a very interesting read.  

 

I note that no one at any time, has discussed how teen boys dress. What would a teen boy have to wear to be looked at as slutty? Or looking to get laid? Or having someone tell them they are responsible for the remarks people make about them? Hell, what would any man have to wear to get labeled as any of these things?  I honestly couldn't think of anything.

 

I guess that's my gauge for when an article is coming from a wildly sexist point of view, when the resulting article sounds ridiculous when you put in male instead of female.  

 

And yet, walking around town, I have seen more of many teen boys than I have of girls.  If your pants are below your butt and your boxers are see through, you are effectively walking around with your backside out.  I see this all the time and no one bats an eye or ever tells the boy they are inviting comments, leers or even assault by dressing this way. I recently say a boy walking down the street with belt and fly open, hands in pockets clearly holding his pants up, but in no way trying to fix the situation.  He was with friends as well, and none of them seemed concerned. 

 

The problem here is not how we let our daughters dress, but how we teach everyone to react to that. 



 


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#67 of 103 Old 03-24-2011, 12:47 PM
 
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I teach high school and the boys with pants sagging is a huge issue; but you are right, no one sees that as trasy or sexy- they see it in a different way. They are considered "ghetto" or "thugs."

 

I have two daughters with very different builds. My yonger daughter has no rear at all. She loves skinny jeans and jeggings. My older daughter, who is 13 and has the body of an 18 year old, has a rear to rival Beyonce. She refuses to wear skinny jeans because SHE feels uncomfortable. I have never said anything to her. However, I dress fairly conservatively 99% of the time myself. Teaching high school, I have to be very careful with what I wear. I have a large chest and certain clothes just will not do around teen boys.

 

I agree that you can find non-slutty clothes, you just have to look for them.

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#68 of 103 Old 03-24-2011, 12:47 PM
 
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The only way for a teen boy to be considered "slutty" is to be gay. Straight, manly-man are incapable of being a slut because they are just being male when they act like completely UAVs towards females or when they sleep around with lots of females.

 

Girls are slutty if they have sex, or dress provocatively, or flirt too much, or are more developed than their peers.

 

Gay males are just sluts.

 

North American culture is really screwed up is theirs views of sex...

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Originally Posted by waiting2bemommy View Post

Wow, MusicianDad as usual your posts give me a lot to think about!

 

While I agree with you in theory I would venture to say that you are a rarity in the world. Not many men have that outlook. I *wish* more men could think like this because it would be great to send my daughter out to play in short shorts and a bathing suit top and not worry that some man is going to think nasty thoughts about her, but.....I know that what I want and how it IS are two different things.

 

And having been married to someone who turned out to be a perverted person who likes to look at and fantasize (and prey on) young girls I know intellectually that covering her from head to toe is not going to stop someone from thinking what they want. However, I don't want to make it any easier. I won't go into details because it's not necessary or appropriate but I'm sure you get my drift. 

 

At the same time why should I or my daughter be punished for someone else's nastiness? I have a short skirt (the first I've ever owned) and I wear it to do housework in because I haven't gt the guts yet to wear it out. And frankly if I did get the guts up to wear it out I would get whistles and catcalls all day long. I don't want to deal with it so I don't wear it. I hate that because I like how I look in it. But it's reality. I can't control other people,only myself.

 

 


Not a total rarity, some men have been taught to, at the very least, keep their opinions of a woman to themselves with they are inappropriate. Unfortunately the "boys will be boys" mind set is still far to prevalent and many people are raising their kids, male and female, to think that men are incapable of self control.

 

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#70 of 103 Old 03-24-2011, 04:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MusicianDad View Post

The only way for a teen boy to be considered "slutty" is to be gay. Straight, manly-man are incapable of being a slut because they are just being male when they act like completely UAVs towards females or when they sleep around with lots of females.

 

Girls are slutty if they have sex, or dress provocatively, or flirt too much, or are more developed than their peers.

 

Gay males are just sluts.

 

North American culture is really screwed up is theirs views of sex...


I agree with all of this.

 

I keep seeing references in this thread to the concept "that if you look hard enough, you'll find decent clothing."  This is perplexing to me.  I'm a working mom, FWIW (saw working moms referenced upstream) and I do 90% of my shopping on-line (to save time and I can do it 3 in the morning if I want).  I've never run into a problem of not finding what I consider appropriate clothing.  I click and buy.  It is all right there at my happy fingertips.  Of course there are certain sites that I visit frequently (Lands End and Zappos are among them), but I really do think there is a huge variety out there (and I'm pretty frugal in the way that I shop in that I get a few good pieces that will last all winter, all summer, etc.).  

 


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#71 of 103 Old 03-24-2011, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by whatsnextmom View Post


We're not talking about boys because that's not what the article was about. Certainly, we can talk boys if you want. Boys that dress too nice or wear clothes that are too fitted are often viewed as gay. This makes dressing this way far less appealing to boys than to girls who are simultaneously berated and praised for looking sexy.

 

Personally, I've told my nephew to pull their pants up many times. I'm certainly not going to walk around with a kid whose rear is hanging out. Gross. You want to look like that with your buddies, whatever. If you want to interview for a job, meet a girl's father for the first time, ect... get a belt.

 

 



 


 

Yes, I understand that is what the article is talking about.  What I was saying is that it is notable that no one *ever* brings up boys and how they dress in this context. You would be hard pressed to find and article like this targeted at boys and asking why we let them dress this way. Heck, not hard pressed, I would say it is impossible. 


 

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The only way for a teen boy to be considered "slutty" is to be gay. Straight, manly-man are incapable of being a slut because they are just being male when they act like completely UAVs towards females or when they sleep around with lots of females.

 

Girls are slutty if they have sex, or dress provocatively, or flirt too much, or are more developed than their peers.

 

Gay males are just sluts.

 

North American culture is really screwed up is theirs views of sex...


This. Exactly.  

 

smh

 

 


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I agree with all of this.

 

I keep seeing references in this thread to the concept "that if you look hard enough, you'll find decent clothing."  This is perplexing to me.  I'm a working mom, FWIW (saw working moms referenced upstream) and I do 90% of my shopping on-line (to save time and I can do it 3 in the morning if I want).  I've never run into a problem of not finding what I consider appropriate clothing.  I click and buy.  It is all right there at my happy fingertips.  Of course there are certain sites that I visit frequently (Lands End and Zappos are among them), but I really do think there is a huge variety out there (and I'm pretty frugal in the way that I shop in that I get a few good pieces that will last all winter, all summer, etc.).  

 



That's true if you buy online. I don't buy clothing online (at least, not for anyone except dh). In local shops, clothing selection can be pretty limited, unless I go to more upscale stores that are well outside my budget. It can be done more cheaply, mostly by hitting thrift stores, but that definitely falls into "looking hard enough". I'm lucky, as my kids are dressed almost completey in a combination of very nice Gymboree clothes from my MIL and hand-me-downs of various kinds.


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#73 of 103 Old 03-25-2011, 06:31 AM
 
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That's true if you buy online. I don't buy clothing online (at least, not for anyone except dh). In local shops, clothing selection can be pretty limited, unless I go to more upscale stores that are well outside my budget. It can be done more cheaply, mostly by hitting thrift stores, but that definitely falls into "looking hard enough". I'm lucky, as my kids are dressed almost completey in a combination of very nice Gymboree clothes from my MIL and hand-me-downs of various kinds.


That's true.  Another factor would probably be location too.  I live in a densely populated place with a lot of commercial competition.  In my parents' town, however, they have a mall, a couple of box stores and that's about it.  I was surprised, though, when I went into Cosco (which is one of those big box stores, at least here on the east coast) once with my in-laws down there and they had a surprisingly good selection of stuff for young girls. 
 

 


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Originally Posted by mar123 View Post

I teach high school and the boys with pants sagging is a huge issue; but you are right, no one sees that as trasy or sexy- they see it in a different way. They are considered "ghetto" or "thugs."

 

I have two daughters with very different builds. My yonger daughter has no rear at all. She loves skinny jeans and jeggings. My older daughter, who is 13 and has the body of an 18 year old, has a rear to rival Beyonce. She refuses to wear skinny jeans because SHE feels uncomfortable. I have never said anything to her. However, I dress fairly conservatively 99% of the time myself. Teaching high school, I have to be very careful with what I wear. I have a large chest and certain clothes just will not do around teen boys.

 

I agree that you can find non-slutty clothes, you just have to look for them.

I would be pretty upset if I found out that any of my daughters' teachers use the word slutty.

 

 

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Originally Posted by waiting2bemommy View Post

 

While I agree with you in theory I would venture to say that you are a rarity in the world. Not many men have that outlook. I *wish* more men could think like this because it would be great to send my daughter out to play in short shorts and a bathing suit top and not worry that some man is going to think nasty thoughts about her, but.....I know that what I want and how it IS are two different things.

 



This is one of the saddest posts I have read on MDC in a long time.  I am not being intentionally offensive towards you, waiting2bemommy, but seriously--- you NEED to hang out with a better class of men.  This is what MusicianDad originally said:

 

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But the problem isn't whether or not men get aroused. If that were the case then any person who might potentially cause any other person to become aroused should be covered from head to toe so as to not cause said arousal. The problem is that western society has taught our men and is teaching our boys that if a woman makes them feel that way they have to right to objectify her and disrespect her because "boys will be boys" and "if she doesn't want to be treated like that she shouldn't dress like that". It's a mind set that places the responsibility for one persons actions and words squarely on the shoulder of another person. 

 

There are plenty of men in this world that can be aroused by a woman who is scantily clad or naked without treating her as a sex object. They are capable of saying to themselves "hey, yeah she is hot... But you know this is neither the time nor the place to ignore the fact that she is a person and I should treat her as such." Men who can work with a woman who is wearing a low cut top without staring at her breasts, who can pass a woman on the street that is dressed "skanky" and not say "nice ass, toots!". Men who know that just because a woman is walking through the park completely naked, or just topless, or wearing a string bikini, and still remember that she is someones daughter, and some ones best friend, possibly someones significant other, mother, sister, aunt, that she has a job, and life, and personality. That she is more than just a body that causes a biological reaction, and more than just a potential piece of tail.

 

Honestly, I don't commend MusicianDad for feeling this way.  Why?  Because it is NOT special behavior.  It is acting like a human being.  My DP certainly follows this "code."  As do all of my brothers (I have six of them, lol, so that is saying something).  And I am certainly raising my children to believe this.  Someone who is unable to "resist" degrading women because of how they dress is not "normal", IMO & IME.  If no one on this board allows their son's to behave this way, it will become the norm (I know it certainly already is in my neck of the woods--- I can't imagine any of my male friends (well, other than in a jokey way, and honestly more likely to catcall to men), dad's of my kids' friends, neighbors, etc assaulting women in this way.

 

 

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The problem here is not how we let our daughters dress, but how we teach everyone to react to that. 


clap.gif

 

If we can expect preschoolers to not steal all the cookies and call names when provoked, we (as a society) can certainly expect adult men to see a little flesh without loosing all trapings of civility.
 

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Adina, great point.  I'll just say that people do figuratively bat their eyes plenty at guys sagging their pants.

 


Bat their eyes?  Or roll their eyes?  Because the response I see towards pants sagging is usually more of a, "Oh, kids today!" rather than taking it as a sexual overture.
 

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The only way for a teen boy to be considered "slutty" is to be gay. Straight, manly-man are incapable of being a slut because they are just being male when they act like completely UAVs towards females or when they sleep around with lots of females.

...

 

North American culture is really screwed up is theirs views of sex...

 

Of course, because if a teen boy is gay, he's already half way to being a woman and everyone knows that the default state of women is slut.

 

It makes me physicallly ill that that type of thinking does form the basis of many people's feelings. Just ick.

 

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#76 of 103 Old 03-25-2011, 10:48 AM
 
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Honestly, I don't commend MusicianDad for feeling this way.  Why?  Because it is NOT special behavior.  It is acting like a human being.  My DP certainly follows this "code."  As do all of my brothers (I have six of them, lol, so that is saying something).  And I am certainly raising my children to believe this.  Someone who is unable to "resist" degrading women because of how they dress is not "normal", IMO & IME.  If no one on this board allows their son's to behave this way, it will become the norm (I know it certainly already is in my neck of the woods--- I can't imagine any of my male friends (well, other than in a jokey way, and honestly more likely to catcall to men), dad's of my kids' friends, neighbors, etc assaulting women in this way.

 

This. DH has an incredibly high libido, and he definitely notices women in a sexual way - not just the scantily clad ones who are 20, either. He thinks women, in general, are just plain hot. He has never, in the years I've known him, behaved in an even remotely disrespectful manner towards women. He doesn't blame women for his own reaction to them. He doesn't stare at a woman's chest while he's talking to her.

 

I don't want people thinking nasty thoughts about my daughters, either. But, I can't control what people think. And, even if i could, there's no evidence that keeping them all covered up is the way to do it. (I also don't think that sexual thoughts = "nasty" thoughts.) I'm concerned about their actions, and that's what needs to be addressed. When dd1 (or dd2, for that matter, but that's still a ways off) has a more mature body, I'm sure there will be men who find her sexually attractive. And, there's nothing wrong with that. (Okay - there's part of the "mom me" who is quietly thinking "ack!"...but that happened when I heard girls making comments about the "hot guys in spandex", including ds1!, at the gymnastics finals. I think it has more to do with "wow - he/she is really growing up" than with sex itself.) If any of those guys are staring at her chest or giving her the once over when she's trying to talk about a school project or whatever, there's something wrong with that. If any of those guys put the fact that she has a female body ahead of the fact that she's a person, there's something wrong with that. If any of those guys try to pressure her into sex when she's not ready, there's something wrong with that. If she's ever raped, there's something wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with a guy finding a girl sexually attractive.

 

 

If we can expect preschoolers to not steal all the cookies and call names when provoked, we (as a society) can certainly expect adult men to see a little flesh without loosing all trapings of civility.
 

Definitely!!


Bat their eyes?  Or roll their eyes?  Because the response I see towards pants sagging is usually more of a, "Oh, kids today!" rather than taking it as a sexual overture.
 

For sure. A few years ago, ds1 had a long-term (over a year, starting when they were both 14) girlfriend. I really liked her. I also happen to know that she wore black thongs, because I could see the top of them over her low rise jeans (as was the case with a lot of the girls her age that I knew at the time). And, I heard people out in public comment on this - about her, and about other girls. It was obviously a sign of low character, promiscuity, etc. etc. etc. etc. And, yet, at that same time, ds1 was also wearing low jeans - so low, in fact, that his boxers stuck out by several inches, and if he hadn't been wearing them, there would have probably been about two inches of visible buttcrack. I heard comments about that, too - it was sloppy and ridiculous and all the rest. But, even though he and she were both wearing very typical clothes for their generation, and even though I heard ds1 say "I look hot" a couple of times after he'd gotten dressed, nobody ever suggested in my hearing - not once - that the fact that ds1's underwear was hanging out said anything at all about his personal character or about his sexual habits. His girlfriend was an "obvious slut", but he was just a "typical sloppy teenager". Seriously...WTF??

 

And, not that it really matters, but I'm as sure as anybody outside of a couple can ever be that they were both virgins throughout the length of their relationship. I haven't noticed if she still wears the super low-rise jeans, or what kind of underwear she has on (I don't look, and she's not snuggled up to ds1 on the couch where I can't help noticing, anymore). But, whether she is or isn't, it doesn't say anything at all about what kind of person she is, or even about whether or not she's sexually active.

 

Of course, because if a teen boy is gay, he's already half way to being a woman and everyone knows that the default state of women is slut.

 

It makes me physicallly ill that that type of thinking does form the basis of many people's feelings. Just ick.

 

No kidding. This was very noticeable in the comments ont he article in the OP, too. Icky. MD nailed it on the part about being more developed, too. I mean, everybody knows that a girl who has boobs before the other girls - or bigger than the other girls - must be having sex indiscrimiately all over town. I've never even figured out how that one's supposed to work.



 

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#77 of 103 Old 03-25-2011, 10:55 AM
 
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WHy?



At the beach a lot of cleavage blends right in and is not that noticeable. At the office, it is probably not the norm to bare a lot of cleavage so I am sure that it would be hard for a heterosexual man to look away, heck for anybody, because it is abnormal in that setting.  It is distracting and shows a certain amount of disrespect for everyone in that environment. I just don't understand how a woman can be absolved of all responsibility for the effect she has on others when she obviously dresses in a revealing way. Of course "revealing" is different for everyone but does that mean there is never a line that should not be crossed "It is my body so I can dress like I want and everyone just had to deal with it" is arrogant and extreme to me. I would say the same about a man wearing spandex pants to the office.

Again I am not saying that a woman deserves mistreatment when she is dressed a certain way, just that in this culture she should at least be aware of the likelihood of negative attention and even expect it might happen (although it is wrong) when that imaginary line in a particular environment is crossed. 

 

I'm wondering is modesty faux-pas now in favor of "girl power"? 

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#78 of 103 Old 03-25-2011, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I would be pretty upset if I found out that any of my daughters' teachers use the word slutty.
 



I don't understand what you're saying here. 

 

I would be upset if my child's teacher called another person 'slutty' in the presence of kids.  I think that's crude, potentially hurtful language that has no place in a school setting. It's unprofessional.

 

But I don't see how it's any of my business or anyone else's business if a teacher uses the word 'slutty' outside of work. 

 

Am I misunderstanding your point?


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#79 of 103 Old 03-25-2011, 11:36 AM
 
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My point is that I do not want a person that has the mindset that certain clothes or certain people are slutty to be teaching my daughters.

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#80 of 103 Old 03-25-2011, 11:50 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Dandelionkid View Post

 

At the beach a lot of cleavage blends right in and is not that noticeable. At the office, it is probably not the norm to bare a lot of cleavage so I am sure that it would be hard for a heterosexual man to look away, heck for anybody, because it is abnormal in that setting.  It is distracting and shows a certain amount of disrespect for everyone in that environment. I just don't understand how a woman can be absolved of all responsibility for the effect she has on others when she obviously dresses in a revealing way. Of course "revealing" is different for everyone but does that mean there is never a line that should not be crossed "It is my body so I can dress like I want and everyone just had to deal with it" is arrogant and extreme to me. I would say the same about a man wearing spandex pants to the office.

Again I am not saying that a woman deserves mistreatment when she is dressed a certain way, just that in this culture she should at least be aware of the likelihood of negative attention and even expect it might happen (although it is wrong) when that imaginary line in a particular environment is crossed. 

 

I wasn't asking "why" with respect to whether or not cleavage is appropriate at work. I've actually worked in many offices where at least some cleavage was quite common - I'm not sure how one would define an "impressive amount", though. However, I was asking "why?" with respect to this precise sentiment:

 

"a women who displays an impressive amount of cleavage at the office certainly bears some responsibility when a man has trouble looking away".

 

I call bs. She has no responsibility for his reaction. None. If he can't look away, then he needs to grow the heck up. She's doesn't have a rope around the back of his head, forcing him to stare at her boobs. There's also no question fo being able to dress exactly how you want at work, if there's a dress code. I cerrtainly had guidelines everywhere that I ever worked, and I actually turned down one job, because the dress code required skirts or dresses for women, and I don't like them. However, I don't think it's disrespectful to anybody to wear a low cut top. (And, fwiw, men have frequently "had trouble looking away" from my boobs in my younger years. It didn't matter if I was wearing a low-cut shirt or not. I wore a DD at 14, and men noticed it. I guess when I was wearing a high-front shirt, it was their fault they "had trouble", but if I happened to be wearing a low-cut one, it was mine? How would that work?)

 

I'm wondering is modesty faux-pas now in favor of "girl power"? 

 

I think "girl power" is a stupid phrase, and I don't consider myself a feminist. However, I also don't think of modesty (in the sense of showing skin) as a virtue. I think it's a thinly (very) veiled way of trying to control people's sexuality. People are entitled to their own views and values, but this is one value that I don't share at all. So, I can't comment on its status in our society or why it may have changed.



 

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#81 of 103 Old 03-25-2011, 12:31 PM
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Thank you Storm Bride!! I love your perspective on so much...

 

I feel this, as I said before, I am very well endowed and it is so hard for me to find something to wear, especially during the summer, that doesn't produce quite a bit of cleavage just because I have big boobs and wear very supportive bras that make them look bigger or squished together or whatever.

 

Why do I have to "bear the responsibility" for having naturally large breasts. Should I just simply wear a sweater all the time because men shouldn't have to be expected to control themselves? I get that someone might look at my boobs when I am wearing a tank top or even just a regular shirt but this is the kind of attitude (not yours storm bride) that kept me in sweatshirts all through high school even when it was warm...

 

Men aren't responsible for their checking women's breasts out or staring at them...It's those pesky women who need to understand men aren't accountable for their behavior.shake.gif

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#82 of 103 Old 03-25-2011, 01:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by journeymom View Post

Lol! Good point. I think she's conflicted. I'll have to go back and read it some time when I'm a bit more focused.


I think she is conflicted too. It's a good piece depicting what a lot of parents may be feeling on this issue.


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#83 of 103 Old 03-25-2011, 02:17 PM
 
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I'm also finding shopping for a girl for the first time that literally from birth on, EVERYTHING is princess princess princess. I mean, I don't have a vendetta against disney, but I have not seen even ONE shirt displaying, say, a race car, or tools, or even sports (other than cheering pom poms)

 

According to my friend it goes straight from disney princess to hannah montana around 2nd grade and then to straight adult styles by middle school.


Your friend is exaggerating.  My DD, now 9, has never owned a disney princess or hannah montana artical of clothing, and trust me, she always had a ton of clothes (only granddaughter on my side of the family).  Most of the kids in her class do not wear character clothing--they wear jeans, tees, leggings, sweaters, skirts, dresses, ect, in many patterns and colors.  There are girl and unisex racing shirts.  I've seen lacrosse, softball, soccer, tennis, rockclimbing, aviation shirts marketed towards girls--half of that in ye old box store of Target.  At 9, my daughter is in size 14/16 clothing (just about to move into junior sizes--she is tall tall tall but skinny).  There's plenty of appropriate clothing out there.

 

Can you find adult styles?  Sure.  There's smartass shirts out there too, marketed to both genders.  But to say that's all that's out there is ridiculous.  I think this is worth discussing as a society, but at some people we have to get over the hyperbole, KWIM?
 

 

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#84 of 103 Old 03-25-2011, 02:43 PM
 
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But the problem isn't whether or not men get aroused. If that were the case then any person who might potentially cause any other person to become aroused should be covered from head to toe so as to not cause said arousal. The problem is that western society has taught our men and is teaching our boys that if a woman makes them feel that way they have to right to objectify her and disrespect her because "boys will be boys" and "if she doesn't want to be treated like that she shouldn't dress like that". It's a mind set that places the responsibility for one persons actions and words squarely on the shoulder of another person. 

 

There are plenty of men in this world that can be aroused by a woman who is scantily clad or naked without treating her as a sex object. They are capable of saying to themselves "hey, yeah she is hot... But you know this is neither the time nor the place to ignore the fact that she is a person and I should treat her as such." Men who can work with a woman who is wearing a low cut top without staring at her breasts, who can pass a woman on the street that is dressed "skanky" and not say "nice ass, toots!". Men who know that just because a woman is walking through the park completely naked, or just topless, or wearing a string bikini, and still remember that she is someones daughter, and some ones best friend, possibly someones significant other, mother, sister, aunt, that she has a job, and life, and personality. That she is more than just a body that causes a biological reaction, and more than just a potential piece of tail.

 

To put any responsibility on the woman for how she is perceived is not fair to her, and unfortunately gets used often to blame the victim. So long as we put the burden of men's actions on womens shoulders, we won't be able to get rid of the "she had it coming" mind set.

 


Excellent post
 

 

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#85 of 103 Old 03-25-2011, 03:12 PM
 
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The fashion industry is really being let off the hook in this article. Have any of you done any shopping for formal dresses these days? OMG, it's SOOOOOOO hard to find a dress that is at least mid-thigh and has some sort of straps... even spaghetti. 

 

Not a problem if your daughter is plus sized.  A lot of that clothing is frumpy.  But I guess that is another topic...
 

 


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#86 of 103 Old 03-25-2011, 04:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post

I wasn't asking "why" with respect to whether or not cleavage is appropriate at work. I've actually worked in many offices where at least some cleavage was quite common - I'm not sure how one would define an "impressive amount", though. However, I was asking "why?" with respect to this precise sentiment:

 

"a women who displays an impressive amount of cleavage at the office certainly bears some responsibility when a man has trouble looking away".

 

I call bs. She has no responsibility for his reaction. None. If he can't look away, then he needs to grow the heck up. She's doesn't have a rope around the back of his head, forcing him to stare at her boobs. There's also no question fo being able to dress exactly how you want at work, if there's a dress code. I cerrtainly had guidelines everywhere that I ever worked, and I actually turned down one job, because the dress code required skirts or dresses for women, and I don't like them. However, I don't think it's disrespectful to anybody to wear a low cut top. (And, fwiw, men have frequently "had trouble looking away" from my boobs in my younger years. It didn't matter if I was wearing a low-cut shirt or not. I wore a DD at 14, and men noticed it. I guess when I was wearing a high-front shirt, it was their fault they "had trouble", but if I happened to be wearing a low-cut one, it was mine? How would that work?)

 


Yes to all that.

 

 

And it's not "girl power" to hold men to the same standards as women, it's equality. Outside of very specific situations, women are taught that it is inappropriate for them to behave in certain ways towards the opposite sex. I'm not sure how to word this effectively, but I'll try. Different expectations for the different genders often fall in favour of the man. Women are expected to sit down and shut up, men are expected to speak their minds. Women are expect to save themselves for marriage regardless of their personal views, men are expected to follow their personal views on the matter. Et cetera, and all that. In this case, where women are expected to be mature individuals and not behave inappropriately to members of the opposite sex, were as men are expected to ogle, catcall, and make inappropriate comments to a provocatively dressed woman, it is different. Women are the ones who benefit from this one because they are the ones being told they are slaves to their baser instinct. Men are the ones taught that they are nothing more then animals in that respect and shouldn't worry about acting like animals if they have the urge too. Because of that, the boys who will eventually become men, learn that they are not responsible for their actions, the woman is, and they have nothing to apologize for when they act like jerks. We have two choices to get rid of this inequality. We can either allow women to behave the same way as men, or require men to behave the same way as women. I personally vote for the latter, because that one is just more fitting to a productive society. (Note: The men v. woman thing is generally speaking, we all know people of both genders who fit better with the other in how they behave.)

 

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#87 of 103 Old 03-27-2011, 11:29 PM
 
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And not one woman I've ever asked about the subject has said that she wishes she'd "experimented" more.

Wow, really?  I wish I had experimented more!  

Good posts, MD!

 
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#88 of 103 Old 03-28-2011, 12:28 AM
 
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well, i was a late bloomer (seriously didn't get my d-cups, from then barely there breasts, until AFTER i turned 20) and i had very conservative parents, but attended a very open minded and highly academic highschool. i never had a butt (or maybe i still don't!) and had a very chubby, baby-like face despite a smaller body frame.

 

so what did i do? i dressed as crazy and weird as much as i could. wore the weirdest combinations, sometimes the brightest colors, along with the craziest hair. people i run into from those times always say they liked how i went to school with a lamp shade over my head for a week -- they thought it was hilarious.

 

do i do that stuff now? NOT AS MUCH AS I'D LIKE TO but if i hadn't had that freedom (as secret as it was to my folks most of the time) i think i would have gone crazy.

 

as long as my kid (and my future kids) learn how to treat others with respect and take criticism with grace, i'll let them dress however they darn well please (assuming they are not gonna be breaking the bank with it, hehe)

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I'm guessing it was someone in this thread that gave me the DDDDC, and for that I thank you. It's been a rough 24 hours and that made me smile.

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#90 of 103 Old 03-29-2011, 03:49 AM
 
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I'm guessing it was someone in this thread that gave me the DDDDC, and for that I thank you. It's been a rough 24 hours and that made me smile.



Whoever gave it to you was right on the mark!

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