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#31 of 54 Old 11-05-2011, 12:42 PM
 
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I am so sorry you and your daughter are going through this!

 

Feeling like you are responsible for someone’s death is very serious and can cause real emotional damage. Also even if it is not real, teenage love feels real at the time. I can say this from firsthand experience. I was dumped by my first "boyfriend" at 15. Was it really love? No way! The guy was a creep and I was clearly in love with the idea of being in love, but the entire experience really hurt my self esteem.

What I am saying is I think this issue with your daughter is very serious ( and I know you think it is too) and I think she needs professional help. I hear you when you say she won't listen to you.

Is there anyone else who she trusts who might be able to convince her to see someone? Teenagers often need to hear things from someone else besides their parents.

 

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#32 of 54 Old 11-05-2011, 12:56 PM
 
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 Inpatient wouldnt do much either, she would either fake her way into seeming "better" to get let out, or they would have to keep her there for life.

 

I get what you're saying Linda, but every child is different, and I doubt your DD was blaming herself for some one else dying. (if she was I apologize for making assumptions) There is something about that kind of guilt and greif that makes it so much harder to let go.

I wouldn't underestimate the ability of the therapists and psychiatrists in in-patient to be able to accurately determine when they are being maniupulated by a teenager and when there is actual processing and healing taking place. 

 

The fact that your daughter is blaming herself for someone else's death is a really serious issue and you're right...that kind of guilt and grief is going to make it harder to let go which is why she truly needs some professional help.

 

Your options are becoming really limited.  Can you consult with a therapist yourself on how to open the lines of communication with your daughter or at least get some suggestions on what you can be looking for in terms of warning signs, etc., how you can take care of yourself through this?  It sounds like you could use some support too.  It must be pretty stressful worrying about what she is going to do next. 

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#33 of 54 Old 11-05-2011, 09:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Is there anyone else who she trusts who might be able to convince her to see someone? Teenagers often need to hear things from someone else besides their parents.

 



There is the one person that she trusts, her best friend, but I really dont think he would convince her to go into therapy. He was forced into therapy at 16 and used that as a means to gain emancipation from his parents. He convinced 4 doctors that there was nothing wrong with him and that his parents just wanted him locked up because they wanted to live their own lives without him. His mom was like 15 or 16 when she had him, so all of this could be true, I dont really know the whole story, just what I was told by my daughter. It's not likely that he would recommend therapy to any one, least of all his closest friend. Her current boyfriend might do it, but that's a big maybe.

 

Already ahead of you there APToddlerMama, I called one of the therapists on my list and went to speak to her. I'm inclined to think her approach is slightly radical; she suggested searching my daughter's room for drugs and/or instruments of self harm, checking her online messages and activities and even reading her private journals. Her theory is that if my daughter wont give me the information then I have to go after it myself, apparently even if it means violating her privacy. It is kind of stressful, but I know what she's going through, so it's more painful knowing what it feels like but not being able to help her

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#34 of 54 Old 11-06-2011, 07:27 AM
 
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Quite honestly, I just dont understand why you are giving her a choice about this. As Linda said earlier, I think you should tell her that you have made her an appointment. I really dont think this is a decision to leave up to her. After all, as we have seen, her decision making hasn't been the greatest. If she cant make good decisions about her body, then she has no business making decisions about whether or not she needs help. Respectfully, I dont think violating her privacy and just letting her opt out of seeing a therapist is going to be very helpful. To me, it sounds like part of the problem here is that you dont trust therapist to know the when they are being manipulated by a teenager because you saw it happen with a friend of hers. And her closest friend is an emancipated 16 year old that is a good enough liar to manipulate 4 therapists? Yikes! I dont know that that guy is the best influence. Either that, or there is nothing wrong with him and his parents are trying to lock him up because they are sick of him. Why is she surrounding herself with someone who is capable of those kind of lies? Another bad decision that I feel goes towards my point that she doesnt have the mental capability to opt out of therapy.

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#35 of 54 Old 11-06-2011, 07:52 AM
 
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I was a teen who was very self destructive. Looking back I do wish my mom had sought out help for me. After a suicide attempt at 14 I got to go to counseling for awhile until the therapist suggested  family therapy at which time they pulled me out.

I would go seek counseling yourself if you can and work out how you are to deal with this. I would hate to see this escalate further.


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#36 of 54 Old 11-06-2011, 08:06 AM
 
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Already ahead of you there APToddlerMama, I called one of the therapists on my list and went to speak to her. I'm inclined to think her approach is slightly radical; she suggested searching my daughter's room for drugs and/or instruments of self harm, checking her online messages and activities and even reading her private journals. Her theory is that if my daughter wont give me the information then I have to go after it myself, apparently even if it means violating her privacy. It is kind of stressful, but I know what she's going through, so it's more painful knowing what it feels like but not being able to help her



Can I gently suggest to you that if you find your therapist's approach to be radical considering all that your daughter is going through and all that you know already about the bruises, branding, feeling responsible for death, etc,. that perhaps you are in a bit of denial?  I hope you continue to see a therapist yourself.  I don't think it is unusual for a parent to experience some denial when their children are hurting, but you have to realize that if you continue to remain in this place where you are content to believe that what your daughter is experiencing is semi-normal teenage behavior and something that you definitely cannot impact, odds are, things are not going to turn out nearly as well as they would if you accept that she is experiencing a mental health crisis right now and do absolutely everything in your power to get her the help she needs. 

 

Personally I would discuss with your therapist the odds that your state would be willing to do an emergency detention.  If it were my kid and I thought that was a possibility, I would tell her that if she refused to see a therapist, I would absolutely start the process for an ED which would give her no option but to be in-patient.  Your therapist would know more and I've only dealt with EDs with children in the CPS/foster system.  I have a feeling it may vary by state or by whether the child is in care or not, but here, it was easy to have a child placed in in-patient against their will with any of the warnings/risk factors you've listed.  If you find out that is an option, I would leverage it.  Something has to be done to get her some help. 

 

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#37 of 54 Old 11-08-2011, 05:57 AM
 
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OP, you seem to be talking yourself out of getting your daughter more help.  You sound decided about inpatients not working, and ditto for the therapist.  I think for your daughter's safety she doesn't have time for you to have your own discomfort with the mental health system convince you to avoid the help she needs.  I truly think your daughter needs to be in a situation where she will be made to get the help.  She has endangered her health and life (between the brandings and the allowing her boyfriend to strangle her) and needs you to protect her.  One more flawed decision could very literally be the end of her.  Why not just get the help for yourself (so that you are supported in parenting her) and your daughter, and if there really is a problem with the system, deal with it if and when it happens.  The potential harm of inpatients being ineffective is less than the harm of your daughter killing or harming herself with inadequate help to prevent her.


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#38 of 54 Old 11-08-2011, 07:49 AM
 
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OP, you seem to be talking yourself out of getting your daughter more help.  You sound decided about inpatients not working, and ditto for the therapist.  I think for your daughter's safety she doesn't have time for you to have your own discomfort with the mental health system convince you to avoid the help she needs.  I truly think your daughter needs to be in a situation where she will be made to get the help.  She has endangered her health and life (between the brandings and the allowing her boyfriend to strangle her) and needs you to protect her.  One more flawed decision could very literally be the end of her.  Why not just get the help for yourself (so that you are supported in parenting her) and your daughter, and if there really is a problem with the system, deal with it if and when it happens.  The potential harm of inpatients being ineffective is less than the harm of your daughter killing or harming herself with inadequate help to prevent her.


Yes, to all of that. You don't have the luxury of time here. She needs you to step up and make her get the help she needs.

 

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#39 of 54 Old 11-08-2011, 11:26 AM
 
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You are not her friend. You are her MOM. Get up and SAVE her. Stop negotiating. She's a child. YOU are the parent

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#40 of 54 Old 11-09-2011, 07:08 AM
 
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Throughout history, man has branded their livestock.  They have also branded their slaves.  In the BDSM world, branding or markings is not uncommon (certainly not something you see all the time or with frequency).  It is usually performed in a ritual or a rite of passage.  The process is usually quite painful and generally causes a permanent mark of ownership on the subject.

 

This is serious stuff here.  I'm a Domina myself and would never brand or tattoo anyone.  I wouldn't even begin to entertain the idea of a child playing these kinds of "games".  The psychology is way too big for her to understand.  Forever isn't that long for a 14 yo girl (or how ever old she is).  She'll have this mark when she's her mother's age.  She'll have this mark when she's her grandmother's age.  She'll be buried with his mark when she's 98 years old. 

 

She'll have the mark after the cretin who put the mark on her releases her.  She'll forever have it.

 

This REALLY infuriates me if this is what happened!  If it is, I'd love to have a go at the animal that did this to her, and it definitely wouldn't be pretty.

 

Gods, I hope this isn't what it is, but if it is, throw everything you can at it and put it in prison.  Hopefully the other inmates will clean up the mess.

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#41 of 54 Old 11-09-2011, 07:40 AM
 
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Quite honestly, there are a lot of people in the body mod world who are into branding and it has nothing to do with sexual ownership or animals.

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#42 of 54 Old 11-09-2011, 07:48 AM
 
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I have my ideas as to who did it for her, but she wont say who it was so I cant do much there. I guess all I can really do is hope she has learned a lesson. I would really hate to see my girl medicated and turned into some kind of zombie.

 



Then call them, and ask them yourself.  You are her mother, and you have every right to know who did it for her - and you also have the right to make sure you know who did it.  If you think you know, as her mother, they will likely be required to give you the information.  Get aggressive mama.

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#43 of 54 Old 11-09-2011, 08:03 AM
 
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Mama, your DD is not suffering from normal teen angst.  She isn't.

 

Call the therapists on your list, until you find one that is VERY experienced at seeing teens who don't want to be seen.  Then take her, and tell her that you are taking her every week for 2 months, period.  Then do it.

 

If she refuses, or you see ANY more signs of self harm, you need to get her in an in-patient program.  Seriously - you may find that time doesn't heal this wound if you don't start acting rather than finding reasons not to.  You may end up burying her, and soon.  Especially if she has an eating disorder (you said she looks skeletal - thats NOT ok!!).  Teens NEED to be parented still - they aren't ready to go out into the world yet, which is why they still live at home.

 

Please get aggressive - she may hate you for it right now, but she will love you for it in 10 years.  Go for the long term.

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#44 of 54 Old 11-09-2011, 08:47 AM
 
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama View Post

Quite honestly, there are a lot of people in the body mod world who are into branding and it has nothing to do with sexual ownership or animals.



I wasn't meaning sexual ownership.  Not all of my world is sexual, or even a lot of it.  I can "own" someone and never have a physical relationship with them.  The point I attempted to make was that IF this is a lifestyle thing, it has an historical foundation.  End of that thought.  In relation to this girl, IF it turns out to be a lifestyle thing, it means that she's been "owned" by someone and is to do their bidding.

 

There's likely no amount of discussion with the thing that will clarify anything about what happened, and that animal will not change it's stripes as a result of the call.

 

The OP is supposed to be the parent, and needs to immerse herself in her DD's life until DD can regain control.

 

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#45 of 54 Old 11-09-2011, 07:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I really dont think that the brand is a mark of ownership at all. The symbol means "bad man/villain", and I think (could be wrong) that it's an emblem of her grief and the fact that she blames herself for her former boyfriend's death. She sees herself as the villain for being unable to save his life.

Forcing my daughter to do anything will usually yeild dramatically bad results, she doesnt respond well to being forced to do anything. If I told her that she was going to see a therapist and that's just whats going to happen, she'd likely bolt and go into hiding somewhere, or she'd just be the worst person that the therapist has ever seen and eventually get kicked out like she was at the teen support group. Either that, or she has learned well from her friend and would try to use it against me in court to gain emancipation. For the time being she seems to be ok, and I'm hoping that maybe getting that brand helped reduce some of her pain and she'll just level out and be a normal teen. I'm keeping an eye out for anything unusual, and the second I suspect something, it's off to the inpatient center. I dont want it to come to that, I think I would hate myself more than she would hate me

 

Super~single~mama- nobody has to tell me anything, I've called the people I think did it for her, multiple times and they both told me that if I dont stop calling and asking questions they would file complaints for harassment.

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#46 of 54 Old 11-10-2011, 04:32 AM
 
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OP, the fine line you're walking here is debating whether the behavior is as serious as it really is, and debating whether to "force" treatment, when the reality is that your dd's behavior is putting her in a place of great vulnerability to life threatening harm.  At some point the choice of whether to move on this is going to be out of your hands.

 

This sounds very strong, but I would be talking with a therapist about whether your dd is currently safe being out in the community.  I would question whether a mandated inpatient stay would be the place to go now.  Get the priorities right.....she doesn't really have the need or luxury of liking the therapist at this point because she isn't safe.  The primary need is for someone who can help her to the place of safety so that she can be well enough to start a healing journey.

 

 People work really, really hard to try to keep the boat afloat and avoid the drastic measure, such as mandated treatment.  Sometimes the drastic measure is exactly what's needed.  

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#47 of 54 Old 11-10-2011, 04:50 AM
 
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Super~single~mama- nobody has to tell me anything, I've called the people I think did it for her, multiple times and they both told me that if I dont stop calling and asking questions they would file complaints for harassment.



They wouldn't succeed in getting you charged with harassment, they threatened that b/c they don't want you to sue them for personal injury.  Especially since your dd didn't have parental permission (which is required for most body art done before age 18).  Honestly, they know that they could be in BIG trouble if you hire a lawyer, b/c you can sue them for some pretty big damages, and possibly put them out of business (depending on the damages).

 

Like the PP, I cannot believe that you think your dd's actions are acceptable, and that you are not trying harder to find her help.  I got pretty mad at my parents when I was a teen, but really, when they laid down the law I also appreciated it. 

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#48 of 54 Old 11-10-2011, 08:38 AM
 
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Listen, OP.  You are making excuse after excuse for why you are unable to help your daughter.  I don't know if you truly believe everything you are writing or not, but regardless, you're not taking your responsibilities as your daughter's mother seriously. I can see why she was kicked out of a teen *support* group.  Frankly, a support group isn't appropriate for her in any way given the magnitude of her needs right now.  She cannot be adequately supported in that setting.  It is not enough for her.  She. needs. more.   WAY more.  As far as being kicked out of *therapy*?  I've worked with a lot of teenagers in the child welfare and juvenile justice system and while your daughter's behavior is totally atypical for a healthy teenager, it isn't anything any decent therapist, psychiatrist, or psychologist hasn't seen before. And regardless, which is it exactly?  Is it that your daughter is doing alright and does not need any help, or is it that she's so unstable that there isn't a skilled and trained individual on the planet who can help her?  It can't be both ways and I hear you saying both.

 

If you are pretty certain that she will refuse to go to therapy if you give her a choice between that and an emergency detention in in-patient, I would go right ahead and start the ball rolling to just do an ED.  Do some research. Talk to your therapist about the process in your county.  There is a decent chance they would be willing to do it and that would at least provide a start for her to get some help.

 

There is no risk of her taking you to court and succeeding. Again, that is so far fetched, I struggle to believe you actually believe that is a possible scenario.  It just sounds like another excuse.  You truly have to stop making excuses for why you can't help her.  If you don't step up, who is going to?  Branding is hopefully going to diminish her pain?  You've got to be kidding.  Talk about a completely maladaptive coping strategy, and one that will not work for her long term.  If branding herself truly was related to reducing her emotional pain versus some silly teenage thing similar to body piercing/tattoos/etc, then you *definitely* have *serious* issues to deal with.  I mean to be gentle, seriously, but wake up.  Wake up now.  You're not doing yourself or your daughter any favors by normalizing your daughter's behavior and making excuses as to why there isn't a thing in the world you can do to help her.  I'd rather have my kid run away while I tried to do something to help than leave them to suffer under my own roof while I did absolutely nothing.  You're going to wake up one day and find your family to be part of some sad and alarming statistics if you don't make a choice to act now.  Really, what is holding you back?  What is it that you are afraid of?  You need to compare those fears to the possibility that doing nothing will lead to an extremely tragic outcome as well as a lot of guilt for standing by watching, making excuses, and refusing to do anything. 

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#49 of 54 Old 11-10-2011, 08:55 AM
 
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Forcing my daughter to do anything will usually yeild dramatically bad results, she doesnt respond well to being forced to do anything. If I told her that she was going to see a therapist and that's just whats going to happen, she'd likely bolt and go into hiding somewhere, or she'd just be the worst person that the therapist has ever seen and eventually get kicked out like she was at the teen support group. Either that, or she has learned well from her friend and would try to use it against me in court to gain emancipation. For the time being she seems to be ok, and I'm hoping that maybe getting that brand helped reduce some of her pain and she'll just level out and be a normal teen. I'm keeping an eye out for anything unusual, and the second I suspect something, it's off to the inpatient center. I dont want it to come to that, I think I would hate myself more than she would hate me
Reading this hurts so much. It's clear that you love your daughter and want to do what's right, but believing that she's "ok" and that risky behavior will help her "level out and be a normal teen" will not HELP her and will only prolong the pain. Yes, she may resist at first because she's fighting an illness. What she's going through now is permanently altering the chemical pathways in her brain so that "normal" may not ever exist for her anymore. The sooner you can get her healthy again, the better her chances of getting closer to normal. Please accept this advice with an open heart from someone who learned the hard way.

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#50 of 54 Old 11-10-2011, 09:22 AM
 
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I completely agree with everything APTodddlerMama said (this doesnt happen very often, so you must understand that it is exactly what someone needs to say to you, even if it is hurts to hear.)

Please do something to help your child. Because that's what she is. A child. And as a parent, it is your responsibility to do something about the dark place she is in, whether she wants you to or not.

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#51 of 54 Old 11-10-2011, 11:10 AM
 
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You also may want to think about the possibility that the school has contacted you about your daughter.  If you do not follow through, two things can happen:  a) your child could continue to deteriorate, or worse, and b) YOU COULD BE CHARGED FOR NEGLECT.

 

I am not trying to be sensationalistic.  I am trying to be realistic.  The people on this board have opened themselves and their experiences to you, even when it was likely sad and hard for them to do so.

 

Please, please review the suggestions and continue to pursue treatment for your child.


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#52 of 54 Old 11-10-2011, 02:28 PM
 
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If the person who branded her (I'm assuming their parents you are calling?) won't talk to you the police can ask them questions.. maybe they would have thought about that before it escalated.

 

What's the difference now and being emancipated? She doesn't tell you anything.. goes where and when she wants.. you don't matter to her.. she has no respect for you... you don't seem to have nay parental rights as it is... might as welll take that next step and be a caring parent instead of walking on eggshells just so you can see her face now and then.

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#53 of 54 Old 11-13-2011, 11:39 AM
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Some children do respond terribly when "forced" to do something.  That is why, as parents, we learn tricks.  When presenting a stubborn toddler with bedtime, parents often find that they have better results if they give the child some control.  They don't say "would you like to go to bed now?"  instead they say "which PJs are you wearing to bed?".  The going to bed is expected and will happen; the child has the choice over the pjs.  I realize you aren't dealing with a toddler.  However, I would present therapy the same way.  I wouldn't say "would you like to go to therapy?".  I would say, "we have three choices for therapists. . Let's visit with each and YOU can choose WHICH one you see."  If she refused to see any of them, I would let her know that her choice was to voluntarily go to therapy x times/week OR to be admitted to inpatient care.  

 

I also agree that the threat of emancipation isn't a real threat.  Once emancipated, she would need to be able to provide for herself, so it may not be attractive to her.  But, even if she would try. . . testimony from the school along with her medical records from the various incidents would serve as concrete evidence that the child needs help.   

 

Please get her help.  Even if she hates you for life, you can go to bed knowing that you did everything you could for her.  My sister currently doesn' speak with my parents.  She has forgiven my mother (supposedly) for the evils of childhood.  She hasn't forgiven dad.  When asked why she says that while mom was the abuser, dad didn't interfere.  She thinks that it is worse that he didn't step in when he could have.  (FWIW-- my mom can be a B*&^*, but neither myself nor my other sister thought of her as abusive.)  And, for myself. . .my sister (the sister who is on non-speaking terms with my parents)  constantly beat on me growing up and my parents would ask me what I did to provoke it, or they would say that "wrestling" can be fun, to relax a little.  I agree that wrestly CAN be fun.  This WASN'T fun.  My sister came to me (after therapy) and apologized for all that she did to me.  We healed.  However, I still struggle with anger against my parents for allowing it to take place.  

 

So, my point is this. . . take action!

 

Amy


Mom to three very active girls Anna (14), Kayla (11), Maya (8). 
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#54 of 54 Old 11-13-2011, 11:53 AM
 
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I get why you have to tread lightly with her.  If my parents tried to force anything on my sister, my sister would bolt and she did run away 8 times between 15 and 18.  She was suffering with guilt and grief.  I really hope your daughter can open up to you and realize you just want what is best for her.  And honestly I understand your thoughts on this right now.  Good luck mama!
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AshleyTiger View Post

I really dont think that the brand is a mark of ownership at all. The symbol means "bad man/villain", and I think (could be wrong) that it's an emblem of her grief and the fact that she blames herself for her former boyfriend's death. She sees herself as the villain for being unable to save his life.

Forcing my daughter to do anything will usually yeild dramatically bad results, she doesnt respond well to being forced to do anything. If I told her that she was going to see a therapist and that's just whats going to happen, she'd likely bolt and go into hiding somewhere, or she'd just be the worst person that the therapist has ever seen and eventually get kicked out like she was at the teen support group. Either that, or she has learned well from her friend and would try to use it against me in court to gain emancipation. For the time being she seems to be ok, and I'm hoping that maybe getting that brand helped reduce some of her pain and she'll just level out and be a normal teen. I'm keeping an eye out for anything unusual, and the second I suspect something, it's off to the inpatient center. I dont want it to come to that, I think I would hate myself more than she would hate me

 

Super~single~mama- nobody has to tell me anything, I've called the people I think did it for her, multiple times and they both told me that if I dont stop calling and asking questions they would file complaints for harassment.



 

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