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#61 of 86 Old 09-28-2013, 07:07 AM
 
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That's an awesome article, Linda. The hard part about communicating this with young girls, and even young women, is that many are a lot more focused on what their bodies look like than on what they can do. My ability to appreciate function has blossomed relatively late in life. I'm 49, and last November I weighed nearly 300 lbs., and all that extra weight was making it really hard for me to do many of the simple tasks of daily living, such as walking down a flight of stairs, carrying a load of laundry upstairs from the basement, and even getting up from a deep chair or couch.

 

Now I've lost about 100 lbs. and have been practicing a near-daily regimen of hula hooping and yoga, and the abilities I've regained, or in some cases gained for the first time, are huge! The extra energy and absence of pain are so wonderful, and I rejoice every time I notice I'm able to do something I couldn't do before. Learning to hula hoop a few months ago for the first time in my life was a huge milestone, as was becoming able to do the full camel pose in yoga a few days ago. It's also fun seeing how nice I look now in form-fitting clothes -- but ability and function are way more important to me than appearance now.

 

At 49, I find feeling good to be a whole lot more important than looking good -- and actually, when you feel great, it tends to make you look better, too. But at 19 or 29, I took basic physical health for granted. I wasn't rejoicing every time I was able to briskly bounce up a flight of stairs -- and of course, I wouldn't want my daughters or anyone else's daughters to go through the horrid experiences a young girl would have to go through to be able to feel "appreciative" about the ability to run up the stairs or jump up out of a chair without needing to grab the sides, or a table, and hoist herself up.

 

The perspective I now enjoy has evolved through a lifetime of experience. It would be great if more young girls started feeling joyful about the wonderful things their bodies are able to DO, and I hope we can create a culture where this happens a whole lot more frequently. But of course, this isn't really about bras. Sorry.

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#62 of 86 Old 09-30-2013, 02:36 PM
 
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I
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Originally Posted by erigeron View Post

It seems to me that probably most girls want to wear a bra before or around the time that they're starting to be physically uncomfortable without one. The situation with a girl who is experiencing physical issues (as opposed to social) due to not wearing a bra, and yet she doesn't want to wear one as opposed to her parent not wanting to get her one, seems comparatively rare. But if you do happen to have that kid who has back/shoulder pain from large breasts and yet stubbornly doesn't want to wear a bra, and you discuss with her the benefits of a bra and how a properly-fitting one will help her feel more comfortable, and she still stubbornly doesn't want to wear one, then I just don't see where pushing it on her is going to accomplish anything constructive. She'll either take it off the first chance she gets, or wear it and seethe at you. As for deodorant, assuming she is bathing regularly and her clothes are reasonably clean, that also sounds like a social issue rather than a physical one, but I am not opposed to the nurse pointing out such an issue to parents, who may legitimately not have realized it. The parent can then decide how to proceed. 
I agree with this.
As a late bloomer in grade 8 I got to the stage where it hurt to do phys Ed and very embarassingly at the constant urging of my friends had to beg my mum to get me fitted... I was only an A, I spent most of my life a C (regardless of weight) when I ate more healthy fats I jumped up to a dd... I can't even imagine the pain of running without - or the damage that would be done to the tissue. I think if daughters know the possible damage then they can make their own conscious choice.
Re deodorant, of course the nurse is right to get involved, I've sat beside kids so stinky before I couldn't focus on what the teacher said... How is that fair? I agree with the no aluminium though, the crystal sticks work really well too. Btw for comfort I would have gladly stuck with my c cups, people who get boob jobs for mega size are gluttons for suffering.
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#63 of 86 Old 10-03-2013, 04:41 PM
 
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I've sat beside kids so stinky before I couldn't focus on what the teacher said... How is that fair? I agree with the no aluminium though, the crystal sticks work really well too. 

 

the crystals are made of alum, which is short for ammonium aluminum sulfate.  i get sooo tired of crystal deodorant manufacturers advertising their products as aluminum-free (and constantly running into people who have been misled), b/c not only are they not aluminum-free, this aluminum salt is the only ingredient in them (so, 100% concentration, instead of being just one of many other constituent ingredients).  honestly, i've tried more deodorant/anti-perspirants than i can count at this point and have come to the grim conclusion that ONLY aluminum-based compounds actually work to stop odor for any lengthy period.  tea tree oil products can work (some of them) but don't last.  so, yeah, i stink sometimes.  if people's noses were just used to the odor, it wouldn't be an issue.  i have to increase my chances of developing breast cancer just to not offend other people's noses?  that's not fair either.  luckily no one has to sit next to me at a desk, though.  i don't know what the answer is, except that we need to reclaim the right not to expose ourselves to aluminum, and people need to re-acclimate to the scent of armpit odor, b/c if everyone stinks all the time, everyone also stops being able to smell it.  i bet my ideas on this are fairly fringe, but i think it's ridiculous to wear pink breast cancer awareness ribbons a few inches away from aluminum-slathered pits.

 

(sorry for the tangent!)

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#64 of 86 Old 10-03-2013, 05:03 PM
 
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just thought i'd chime in with my experience.  first of all, when kids were trying their hand at making sexualized comments when i was in late elementary school, they always went for butts, not boobs.  not sure if that was just b/c i'm bootlicious :D or if that was just the differing culture, or just the individuals i encountered who were trying their hands at that thing they didn't quite understand yet called flirtation (always tinged with a bit of mean-spirited teasing or sexual language they didn't know how to wield).  b/c obviously around 6th grade, you can't just tell another kid you like their personality and can you hang out some time and get to know each other better, right?  (seems so obvious that a 6th grader would not take this approach, which is so sad.  one of the reasons i want to unschool my kid.  i want them to defy these norms.  blech, i hate some things about the mainstream society that currently surrounds us.  there's just no reason i should have been aware of the fact that i had a "big butt" at age 8 (the first time i remember this incidentally very cute 12-yr-old boy commenting and subsequently grabbing), and that the older boys were "into" that.  and thank god we haven't invented butt bras of any kind.)

 

but even though up to a certain point i got NO comments on my boobs (well, that is, my nipples, no boobs yet in 6th grade), from any of my classmates, "training bras" (as they were called) started trickling into the cooler kids' wardrobes, causing many of the rest of us to go home and beg mom to buy us one, to which some of our moms relented and others said no way.  now i sorta wish she'd said no way.  as soon as i started wearing one, THAT'S when i started getting comments.  the cool kids were so ready to point out how stupid i was for wearing a training bra i obviously didn't need.  i think that was worse than the left-out feeling the kids whose moms said no felt, b/c my inability to fit in was called to attention, and overtly made fun of.  theirs was just ignored.  (we didn't have to change in front of each other until 8th grade.)


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#65 of 86 Old 10-03-2013, 10:58 PM
 
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No. I got so embarrassed when my aunts, grandma, my dads female friends, etc. would point out I needed a bra, asked publicly if I was wearing one (or announce I needed to wear one...), etc. I was around 5th grade when this started and definitely wasnt a busty little girl.

It made me really self conscious. I'll let my daughters know what bras are and they can ask for one when they want, but I'll never FORCE them, or make it a big spectacle.

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#66 of 86 Old 10-04-2013, 04:39 PM
 
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Aluminum doesn't cause breast cancer. The study that you're referring/inferring to showed that women with underarm hygiene were more likely to find breast cancer earlier because they were more familiar with what their breasts felt like. Under the armpit is an infamous place for breast cancer tumors to go un-noticed.

I'm not sure I would MAKE my daughter wear a bra, but I would talk to her about them, and if she was well endowed like me, her aunt, her grandmother and her great-grandmother, I'd encourage to wear one for health reasons. 

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#67 of 86 Old 10-04-2013, 05:09 PM
 
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i think it's unwise to pretend to be ahead of the research – no one knows the answer for sure about the link between breast cancer & aluminum. that's why it's still being so heavily researched. because the top minds in the field still believe there very well may be a link, and aren't ready to dismiss or definitively conclude what that link is.

per the following link,
"Clinical studies showing a disproportionately high incidence of breast cancer in the upper outer quadrant of the breast together with reports of genomic instability in outer quadrants of the breast provide supporting evidence for a role for locally applied cosmetic chemicals in the development of breast cancer. Aluminium is known to have a genotoxic profile, capable of causing both DNA alterations and epigenetic effects, and this would be consistent with a potential role in breast cancer if such effects occurred in breast cells."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16045991/?i=3

this is just one of the first results that comes up. similar papers and quotes to that effect are abundant. i'm certainly not throwing caution to the wind b/c someone (well-meaning though they may be) on a message board heard something different. cancer (and possibly even more so, treatment) is so much more brutal and devastating than you can ever imagine until you experience it firsthand or in a loved one. but once you do, you don't take risks like this. well, not me anyhow. cancer has taken far too big a toll on my family already, with many more awful and heartbreaking years to come.

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#68 of 86 Old 10-04-2013, 05:48 PM
 
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I'm so very sorry cancer has taken such a toll on you and your loved ones. I can certainly respect that if there is a history, one would not take chances no matter how slim. I do, however, take offense to your assumption that I assume myself ahead of the research or that cancer has not touched my life in any way.  My point was that people often make conclusions based on a correlation that is faulty. 

as per the lit review:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/18829420/?i=2&from=/16045991/related

" After analysis of the available literature on the subject, no scientific evidence to support the hypothesis was identified and no validated hypothesis appears likely to open the way to interesting avenues of research."

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#69 of 86 Old 10-04-2013, 06:15 PM
 
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they're still only saying "we don't have enough evidence yet", and they do know aluminum causes DNA mutations. it's safe to say the jury's still out on this one. i'm going with the precautionary principle here, and choosing the path least likely to cause harm to my health (w/ no ethical qualms b/c this path imposes no risk to anyone else's).
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#70 of 86 Old 10-04-2013, 08:32 PM
 
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I would have a problem with a school nurse commenting on my kid's underwear, and then trying to dictate about it.  If one of my kids was wearing a bra as a top, with nothing over it, then fine, but trying to dictate what my clothed child wears underneath their clothes is creepy and inappropriate.

ditto.  I have no problem with a parent deciding thier child needs certain clothing items (coat, shoes, socks, all things we sometimes "make" kids wear when we feel its necessary in our state, theres lots of snow in winter!).  Mine is too young to need one but eventually I would encourage it.  I don't foresee it being a big problem, I was thrilled when my mom explained the functionality of certain underwear for running etc.  But a school nurse? Needs her own life.  

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#71 of 86 Old 10-05-2013, 04:29 AM
 
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idk because a neighbor took my grandmother to get her first bra because her parents (neglectful in other measures, too) were ignoring the necessity. I do think it takes a village. Just because the moms on this thread are attentive to their kids and have given thought to what they need and don't need and what they value as a family, doesn't mean that every parent is. There are going to be some kids who will benefit from the nurse or another school staff member saying something (not in a nasty way, as I know someone did upthread--I'm not in support of that). And for those parents who are already conscious of the issues, if the nurse calls they can just reply "Thanks for your concern, I've got it under control" and move along. 


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#72 of 86 Old 10-05-2013, 02:59 PM
 
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Erigeron - love your perspective it's a great observation - as the people on here obviously care passionately about their kids, it's easy to forget that not all do - thank you

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#73 of 86 Old 10-05-2013, 09:03 PM
 
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yeah, actually, good point. and genuinely hadn't occurred to me either. but i suppose there are probably as many examples of school nurses providing an extra pair of caring adult eyes where the parents are neglectful, as there are of the variety that rub us the wrong way ideologically. while the nurse mentioned would bug me, i guess in all likelihood she was probably doing it in a sincere effort to be helpful. not saying i wouldn't still give her a bit of a feminist lecture, though, if she called about my kiddo! wink1.gif

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#74 of 86 Old 10-06-2013, 08:32 AM
 
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About deodorant -- I can't claim to have extensively studied the topic, but my main concern is about antiperspirants, which actually block the flow of sweat (and any toxins the body is trying to get rid of) through the pores, and I think it can cause a high level of toxins to collect in the armpit area. There are a few deodorants that are just deodorants and don't clog the pores, but dh doesn't always manage to find those when he's out doing our shopping.

 

Since I work from home, my basic practice is just to bathe daily and not wear any deodorant. Then, when I exercise or any other time I sweat a lot, I get rid of a lot of toxins. On those rare occasions when I leave the house for several hours and feel like I might sweat a lot, I do wear deodorant, but I wash it off with soap and water after I get home.

 

I've talked with dd1 about the need to allow our pores to eliminate toxins, and I've suggested that she not wear any deodorant when at home or when out walking the dog around the neighborhood, to giver her body a chance to do this, but she doesn't seem too concerned about the health risks and is more concerned about not having any odor when she's at school. So, now that she is going to school every day rather than homeschooling, I think I do need to make sure we have an antiperspirant-free deodorant for her.


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#75 of 86 Old 10-06-2013, 09:04 AM
 
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Sure: but know that if a deodorant does also contain aluminum (which 99% of those marketed to women in regular stores do), it can't actually be washed off: it is an OTC medication, which works cumulatively over time & is actually absorbed.

I don't have an issue with deodorant only @ any age, but I find that most everyone aside from dedicated hippie warriors is actually using antiperspirant. They even have 'clinical strength' now which actually just means 'extra aluminum'.
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#76 of 86 Old 10-06-2013, 10:07 AM
 
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I respect anyones choice to go braless, often do myself, and would not insist my daughter wear one. That said, we went to her 2nd grade musical last year, and there was a 7 year old girl doing a bouncy, enthusiastic solo dance routine on stage.
Well-developed, thin white blouse, bright lights, painful looking bounce. I cringed at the giggles and whispers in the audience and thinking that some of the dads may have found that an interesting sight on a girl so young. My own husband shook his head and elected to closely examine his program during her performance. So I don't know what I will do at that point....kids are really active and I would want everyone seeing her dancing and beautiful smile, not tittering at her body.
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#77 of 86 Old 10-06-2013, 10:39 AM
 
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I understand your concern for your dd's safety. I think all of us want our children safe from assault. But, as you briefly alluded to, the way a woman looks is not why women are assaulted. Rape is not about "male lust" but it is about the need for some (not all by far) men to harm, humiliate, shame and punish women. Women in their 70s get raped, little babies and toddlers get raped, it's terrible, but no one has ever been raped due to whether her nipples were poking through her shirt or not. That's been proven to NOT be the way the mind of a molester or rapist works.

I agree with you about not wanting undo attention on your daughter, but if heaven forbid a child was assaulted, I would never want her to think anything she did, said, wore or how she looked was a factor in the assault. Women have been blamed for being victimized for thousands of years, I think we are past that now. Victims should NEVER be blamed, and when we pass on the message, "Someone might rape you if you look too attractive or 'sexy'." IF that girl would then been assaulted she might remember being told that and carry the shame that was NOT hers for a lifetime. I doubt any mother wants to pass that toxic message on to her innocent daughter.

Rape occurs because someone wants to hurt and humiliate and dominate an other person. Rape does not occur because of what someone is wearing nor does what a woman is wearing "increase the odds" of being raped.  This has been proven beyond reasonable doubt. I think, as modern educated women we can all agree on that. Sending the message to our daughters that they even might have a hand in their own assault is harmful, and in the end does nothing to actually decrease the incidence of rape by a single woman.

I think we can all agree on that, no mileage needed.
I completely agree that rape is about violence, not sex or how a woman dresses. However, my own experience was that dressing sexually as a young girl did bring agressive attention (different from rape) that I was not prepared to handle. Guys assumed I was older and interested and were confused when I was not. It was not worth it. It SHOULD NOT be that way, but it is sometimes. Being young, it ended up negatively coloring my view of all men, because the only ones I was attracting were the horndogs.
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#78 of 86 Old 10-06-2013, 11:48 AM
 
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Not to hijack the thread any further into the anti-perspirant direction, but for any interested/ health conscience children, cider vinegar under your arms works great as a deoderant. I've also heard that lemon juice will work. The vinegary smell disappears as it dries & the acidity balances your ph. It's a lot healthier for your lymph nodes!


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#79 of 86 Old 10-06-2013, 12:51 PM
 
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the crystals are made of alum, which is short for ammonium aluminum sulfate.  i get sooo tired of crystal deodorant manufacturers advertising their products as aluminum-free (and constantly running into people who have been misled), b/c not only are they not aluminum-free, this aluminum salt is the only ingredient in them (so, 100% concentration, instead of being just one of many other constituent ingredients).  

 

Just wanted to thank you for this. I had no idea. I did my own research online and came to the same conclusion.

 


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#80 of 86 Old 10-06-2013, 02:16 PM
 
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It is actually Potassium Aluminum Sulfate tho. Not saying I think it is a great idea tho.
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#81 of 86 Old 10-08-2013, 07:52 AM
 
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Sure: but know that if a deodorant does also contain aluminum (which 99% of those marketed to women in regular stores do), it can't actually be washed off: it is an OTC medication, which works cumulatively over time & is actually absorbed.

I don't have an issue with deodorant only @ any age, but I find that most everyone aside from dedicated hippie warriors is actually using antiperspirant. They even have 'clinical strength' now which actually just means 'extra aluminum'.

Yikes! I really like Voondrop's idea about the cider vinegar. I hope I can turn dd1 onto that!


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#82 of 86 Old 10-08-2013, 07:57 AM
 
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About bras and unwanted attention -- I'm seriously wondering if anyone's met a teen girl who actually wanted to go braless. As I've already said, dd1 has seen a bra as a real necessity since starting school and needing to change in the locker room for gym class. It seems really bizarre that anyone would have to "make" a young girl wear a bra in those kinds of situations. Most girls this age really are all about fitting into the social norms for their age group. Is anyone finding anything different with their own dd?


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#83 of 86 Old 10-08-2013, 10:28 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post
 

About bras and unwanted attention -- I'm seriously wondering if anyone's met a teen girl who actually wanted to go braless. As I've already said, dd1 has seen a bra as a real necessity since starting school and needing to change in the locker room for gym class. It seems really bizarre that anyone would have to "make" a young girl wear a bra in those kinds of situations. Most girls this age really are all about fitting into the social norms for their age group. Is anyone finding anything different with their own dd?

No. My 16 yo wouldn't dream of going braless.


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#84 of 86 Old 10-08-2013, 10:43 AM
 
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My 11yo is an (adult) A cup and wears a bra every day, by her choice.


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#85 of 86 Old 10-09-2013, 09:48 AM
 
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Originally Posted by dinahx View Post

It is actually Potassium Aluminum Sulfate tho. Not saying I think it is a great idea tho.

ah, yes, that is the other one. salt crystal deodorants are one of those two aluminum salts, potassium aluminum sulfate or ammonium aluminum sulfate.

also, dinahx, lolz, dedicated hippie warrior!!! so that's what i am! orngbiggrin.gif

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#86 of 86 Old 10-09-2013, 10:07 AM
 
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also, guys, WRT armpit odor control? i've been using "jungleman" with a pretty high success rate! tips: keep it in the fridge if it's warmer than 80 degrees indoors or else the stuff is sludgey & goes on way too thick (don't forget to roll it up to the correct height before you put it in the fridge, though, or you won't be able to); put it on immediately after washing pits (don't wait until you've begun sweating); it works best applied liberally, so ideally (esp if you have a ton of armpit hair like me) rub a ton of it all over (outside the hairy region as well) then use your hands to spread it out / rub it in until it is no longer visible. then you have to wash your hands, of course. a little bit of a hassle, but when i utilize it in this manner, it works really well (better when refrigeration isn't necessary, which is unfortunate, since those hottest months are when i most need it!). i'd say it lasts 4-6 hrs if you're an extremely heavy sweater like me. doesn't fully eliminate odor, but you don't get any of those sharp pungent smells, at all, and to me that's a huge success.

don't mean to be an advertisement for this particular brand, but the ingredients are cornstarch, palm oil, baking soda, and tea tree oil, and that's all. so i would have similar faith in any other product with just those ingredients & have even contemplated whipping up a homemade batch, but i'm just lazy enough to be willing to pay for the convenience of the stick. (actually i doubt the palm oil would be necessary in a home batch, or at least not much would be necessary, since i assume that's just used to make it a waxy solid & therefore able to be formed into a stick.)

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