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#31 of 43 Old 06-13-2014, 10:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post
The federal government requires that the entire industry my DH works in tests. No body wants to fly around in planes that were designed by a bunch of stoner engineers. There are other careers like this. It's considered a public safety issue.
I live in BC, Canada, for what it's worth, so I am coming at this issue from a different cultural mindset, but I wonder how you would feel about the above scenario if alcohol was substituted for marijuana. Would it be a public safety issue to have planes designed by a bunch of people who enjoy beer or wine on their own time? Would it be reasonable for the government to test entire industries to ensure complete alcohol abstinence?

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#32 of 43 Old 06-13-2014, 12:03 PM
 
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I live in BC, Canada, for what it's worth, so I am coming at this issue from a different cultural mindset, but I wonder how you would feel about the above scenario if alcohol was substituted for marijuana. Would it be a public safety issue to have planes designed by a bunch of people who enjoy beer or wine on their own time? Would it be reasonable for the government to test entire industries to ensure complete alcohol abstinence?

Miranda
This sort of takes things off topic but what Miranda says rings true. Alcohol is a much more dangerous and damaging drug than marijuana but they have a really strong lobby and community support. For that matter, how many prescription drugs would we be comfortable with people in such a position taking? I've seen what anti-depressants can do to people... where do we draw the line?
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#33 of 43 Old 06-13-2014, 04:51 PM
 
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If we stopped treating it as a criminal issue and started treating it as a physiological issue (which it is), I believe society would be much better off.
Do you mean psychological or physiological?

Either way, why would you be OK with your teen using drugs?
Where would you draw the line between "cutting in loose" and having a psychological or physiological problem?

(FWIW, I suspect that most teens and young adults who smoke a little weed outgrow it without long term effects, however, I still draw the line as zero tolerance in my home)

We have lots of drug treatment programs. One residential program here allows addicts to bring their children with them. I guess I'm not seeing that our current (and very failed) policies keep people from getting help. Lots of help is available for those who want it, much of it is free here.

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Originally Posted by moominmamma View Post
I live in BC, Canada, for what it's worth, so I am coming at this issue from a different cultural mindset, but I wonder how you would feel about the above scenario if alcohol was substituted for marijuana. Would it be a public safety issue to have planes designed by a bunch of people who enjoy beer or wine on their own time? Would it be reasonable for the government to test entire industries to ensure complete alcohol abstinence?

Miranda
I assuming you mean, "if the world were completely different and drugs were not associated with kidnapping, torture, and murder...."

As it is, being involved in drugs so close to the boarder makes some a security risk because the cartel kidnaps family members. (I live about an hour away from the city in the US with the highest kidnapping rate).

In the fictional, perfect world, it's a good question. One that I would have to research an answer to.

In the real world, I'm fine with the fact that for some jobs, you need to follow the law. For jobs with security clearances, people have to have their finances in order. I'm really OK with the standards for behavior being different for different career choices. People can make choices about what they want to do, and are free to go into other fields.

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For that matter, how many prescription drugs would we be comfortable with people in such a position taking? I've seen what anti-depressants can do to people... where do we draw the line?
My DH's company just fired a bunch of "low performers." Heaven only knows what was going on with them. Excessive alcohol? Prescription drugs? Apathy? Pot? Laziness that set in AFTER they did all the work to get the qualifications to get those jobs?

but everything has pros and cons  shrug.gif

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#34 of 43 Old 06-13-2014, 05:51 PM
 
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Do you mean psychological or physiological?

Either way, why would you be OK with your teen using drugs?
Where would you draw the line between "cutting in loose" and having a psychological or physiological problem?
I meant physiological, which addiction is. Marijuana "addiction" is psychological but I was talking about harder drugs in that comment.

I would absolutely not be okay with my teen using drugs. (The "cutting loose" comment came from another poster, not me.) I just personally wouldn't turn my home into a police state to prevent it, nor do I think it's a crime worthy of draconian punishment. I would rather teach my kid *why* they're a bad idea, and be there for them if/when they do make a bad judgement call. I also see a tremendous difference between marijuana, which is relatively harmless, and harder drugs like heroin.

It's just not a black/white issue for me.

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(FWIW, I suspect that most teens and young adults who smoke a little weed outgrow it without long term effects, however, I still draw the line as zero tolerance in my home)
That is absolutely your right to do.

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We have lots of drug treatment programs. One residential program here allows addicts to bring their children with them. I guess I'm not seeing that our current (and very failed) policies keep people from getting help. Lots of help is available for those who want it, much of it is free here.
For every addict that gets successful treatment, there are thousands who are left for dead, killed by police, incarcerated, or branded for life with felony convictions that make it nearly impossible for them to move on with life. Criminalization helps nothing and our jails are filled with drug offenders serving mandatory minimums while rapists walk free for lack of space.


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Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post
I assuming you mean, "if the world were completely different and drugs were not associated with kidnapping, torture, and murder…."
Well no, I'm saying that drugs are associated with kidnapping, torture, and murder BECAUSE of Prohibition. Ending Prohibition would end most, if not all, of the associated criminal trade.

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In the real world, I'm fine with the fact that for some jobs, you need to follow the law.
Of course. But my employer doesn't have a right to search my house at random intervals to see if I'm hiding stolen goods, and he doesn't have a right to search my body fluids for evidence of what I do in my own time. I think it's sad that we as a society have come to accept the idea of an employee being the property of the employer, with no rights to privacy or an existence outside of work. It's dehumanizing.

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My DH's company just fired a bunch of "low performers." Heaven only knows what was going on with them. Excessive alcohol? Prescription drugs? Apathy? Pot? Laziness that set in AFTER they did all the work to get the qualifications to get those jobs?
Since I don't know them, I'm not sure. It sounds like they were fired for poor job performance though, and not for having a glass of wine or a joint at home on a Saturday evening.

Look, I get that we're not going to agree on this. And that's fine. I just think it's important to maintain perspective.
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#35 of 43 Old 06-13-2014, 07:47 PM
 
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I assuming you mean, "if the world were completely different and drugs were not associated with kidnapping, torture, and murder...."
Well, I did mention that I live in BC Canada, and I kind of live in that world. There's a lot of marijuana grown where I live, such that many people believe it's the biggest part of our area's economy. Which isn't saying much, but still... And anyway, we don't have violent crime. So yes, that was the context of my question.

I guess I just don't believe it is an employer's place to police something that doesn't directly affect them. At least that affects them no more than many other lifestyle choices their employees might make in their off hours.

Miranda
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#36 of 43 Old 06-13-2014, 10:37 PM
 
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I would absolutely not be okay with my teen using drugs. (The "cutting loose" comment came from another poster, not me.) I just personally wouldn't turn my home into a police state to prevent it, nor do I think it's a crime worthy of draconian punishment. I would rather teach my kid *why* they're a bad idea, and be there for them if/when they do make a bad judgement call. I also see a tremendous difference between marijuana, which is relatively harmless, and harder drugs like heroin.
But if you have all those conversation and work to build a positive relationship based on respect and understanding the issues, and your teen decides to do drugs anyway, lie to you, etc, then what? That's the real question. Teens have free will.

Where and how would you draw that line? I feel fortunate that I've not had to deal with this, but I have friends who have and I don't feel any judgment toward the different ways they have dealt with this issue. How far would you let your own child go down that slide before putting a definitive stop to it, and how would you do that?

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I guess I just don't believe it is an employer's place to police something that doesn't directly affect them.
It's not the employer, its the FAA. Its part of federal law. Many people believe that illegal drugs, including pot, stay in the system and effect judgment and cognitive abilities past the point where intoxication ended. They believe that it DOES effect work, and therefore safety. The fact that I don't see what the big deal is about certain people being tested and you do may have a lot to do with me being American and you being Canadian. (I know what all Americans agree with me). I was doing some research, and I was surprised that even Canadian pilots aren't tested for drugs and alcohol when flying. We have random test here.

I'm not interested in discussing the pros and cons of legalization. Its irrelevant to a parenting discussion. This involves federal, state and Mexican laws and isn't going to change between now and when my kids are adults, so it is completely irrelevant. This is just the world that I'm raising my teens in, it is what it is.

I've said several times that the current policies don't work, but I don't buy that all the problems would magically go away with legalization. The cartels aren't going to just switch to tamale stands. The exist to provide what cannot be legally had, and they will find more ways to do that. Addicts will still be a mess (just as alcohols are still mess even though it is legal).

but everything has pros and cons  shrug.gif

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#37 of 43 Old 06-13-2014, 10:51 PM
 
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But if you have all those conversation and work to build a positive relationship based on respect and understanding the issues, and your teen decides to do drugs anyway, lie to you, etc, then what? That's the real question. Teens have free will.

Where and how would you draw that line? I feel fortunate that I've not had to deal with this, but I have friends who have and I don't feel any judgment toward the different ways they have dealt with this issue. How far would you let your own child go down that slide before putting a definitive stop to it, and how would you do that?
That's the big question, isn't it? No one knows for sure what they'd do until they're in that situation, but I can't ever picture myself doing random drug screenings or punishment-based authoritarianism. It's just not who I am. I do have to admit that pretty much everyone I know smoked weed in high school, self included, and turned out all right. I just don't think it's a serious problem until it becomes one.

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It's not the employer, its the FAA. Its part of federal law. Many people believe that illegal drugs, including pot, stay in the system and effect judgment and cognitive abilities past the point where intoxication ended.
There is zero evidence to support that. It's just hysteria. The US government is really, really good at hysteria.

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The fact that I don't see what the big deal is about certain people being tested and you do may have a lot to do with me being American and you being Canadian. (I know what all Americans agree with me).
I'm an American - a Southern conservative, no less - and I absolutely do not agree with you on that point. The USA was founded on personal liberty, the right to privacy, and freedom to live one's own life as one sees fit.

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I've said several times that the current policies don't work, but I don't buy that all the problems would magically go away with legalization. The cartels aren't going to just switch to tamale stands. The exist to provide what cannot be legally had, and they will find more ways to do that.
So why bother to end alcohol Prohibition? The bootleggers and moonshiners aren't just going to switch to lemonade stands. Alcohol causes serious problems for some people, and the Al Capones of the world aren't just going to give up, so we might as well just keep up alcohol Prohibition too. Let's spend billions of dollars a year on failing to keep booze out of the country, and closing bars and shooting people who drink and filling up prisons with alcoholics as well as those who just got busted with a glass of wine at dinner. That's just the way the world is. Right?
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#38 of 43 Old 06-14-2014, 10:49 AM
 
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I was doing some research, and I was surprised that even Canadian pilots aren't tested for drugs and alcohol when flying. We have random test here.
I guess I just don't understand the logic of this invasion of privacy. Sure, public safety could be affected by substance use, but aviation is by no means the only situation in which this could happen. If that is the argument for invading privacy with drug testing, then surely by the same logic anyone operating a motor vehicle should be tested. Which would be pretty much every adult, every day. Honestly, with a co-pilot and all the computerized redundancy in aircraft and the stringent licensing and medical checks and the filtering effect of the education and training required for aviation, I wouldn't be surprised if there's more public risk in ordinary motor vehicle operations than there is in aviation.

I realize this is taking the thread off-topic a bit, but from my perspective this American habit of random drug testing has normalized something that is really quite invasive and authoritarian. It strikes me as frankly Big Brother-ish and it amazes me that anti-drug hysteria has caused the populace to view it as acceptable to the extent that parents think of random drug testing of their children as a reasonable disciplinary option.

I admit I haven't had problems with my kids and drugs, but I have friends whose teens smoke up against their parents' wishes. And their reaction generally is the same as when teens consistently make other choices their parents disagree with: expressing their disapproval, not directly supporting the choice, loving their kids anyway, and suggesting and offering sensible harm-reduction strategies. Like, if you think your 16-year-old daughter shouldn't be sexually active but you know she has been or wants to be, you make sure she's got access to reliable contraception: you don't insist on vaginal swabs for microscopic exam and take away the car keys if you find sperm. I mean, really, to me the drug testing seems just as ludicrous a way of trying to force parental standards of behaviour upon a teen who wants to make different choices. Like it or not parents can't really discipline teens through control, not without seriously jeopardizing their relationship, and an antagonistic relationship drastically reduces the parents' ability to influence their teens. And really, overall, influence is so much more powerful and lasting a parenting strategy.

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#39 of 43 Old 06-14-2014, 12:49 PM
 
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I realize this is taking the thread off-topic a bit, but from my perspective this American habit of random drug testing has normalized something that is really quite invasive and authoritarian. It strikes me as frankly Big Brother-ish and it amazes me that anti-drug hysteria has caused the populace to view it as acceptable to the extent that parents think of random drug testing of their children as a reasonable disciplinary option.
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#40 of 43 Old 06-14-2014, 02:01 PM
 
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I guess I just don't understand the logic of this invasion of privacy. Sure, public safety could be affected by substance use, but aviation is by no means the only situation in which this could happen. If that is the argument for invading privacy with drug testing, then surely by the same logic anyone operating a motor vehicle should be tested.

In the US, drug and alcohol testing extends to:

" safety-sensitive transportation employees in aviation, trucking, railroads, mass transit, pipelines, and other transportation industries." http://www.dot.gov/odapc

As far as drivers of cars, in my state, if you are stopped for drunk driving and refuse to test, then your license in suspended. (you have to sign that you agree to that before you can get a license in my state).

I don't know any one who drug test their children who hasn't already caught their children using drugs.

I find this an odd argument for me to be on. I'm very big on my kids' privacy. I don't check their cell phones or their internet histories. I believe that they have a right to tremendous privacy, and I would only break that in ANY way if I knew or had reason to suspect that they were doing something dangerous, were having mental health problems like suicidal depression, etc. But for me, doing illegal, mind altering substances would fall into that category.

I honestly think that pee is a lot less invasive that reading a kids diary or reading through their conversations with a friend. I know a lot of parents who constantly cyber-snoop on their teens "just in case" when the teens haven't put a toe out of line. I don't, and I don't approve of it. However, if I had reason to believe my child was doing drugs, then I would.

We don't have drug issues in our family. One of my kids' friends grew up watching his parents get stoned, and he hates pot so much it keeps anyone in their social circle from ever mentioning trying it. For them, pot is something really bad parents do.

None the less, I have a friend whose son was murdered over drugs, and I get it when parents take this issues extremely seriously. Yes, lots of kids smoke pot and nothing happens. Some fall deeper and deeper into a world that swallows them whole.

I also think that "i would just talk about it" thing has a line, and if your kid crossed whatever that line is for you, you would do SOMETHING. No loving, involved parent just sits back and watches their child try harder and harder drugs until they are an addict.

One parent I knew sent her son to a wilderness program and then a boarding school to get him far, far away from his friend set and connections. I think that is a lot harsher than testing.

but everything has pros and cons  shrug.gif


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#41 of 43 Old 06-14-2014, 03:54 PM
 
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Testing crosses way over a line into a persons right to privacy. It's not a privilege, it's a right, or at least it should be, and u would never want to teach my child otherwise or to normalize that.

I can't believe people actually rationalize that!
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#42 of 43 Old 06-14-2014, 05:12 PM
 
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I'm sorry, I just don't understand this mindset. I see no parallel between a police officer seeing current evidence of public endangerment through intoxication and a parent or friend or employer being suspicious that a person may have been intoxicated at some point in the previous few days. I'm obviously seeing this through a very different cultural lens some of you, so I'll bow out of the discussion for now.

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#43 of 43 Old 06-14-2014, 08:38 PM
 
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There. That just about covers it. I satisfied my itch to post without actually saying anything.
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