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#121 of 148 Old 08-31-2005, 07:21 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Uumom wrote above: If so, I don't see 'consequences' and 'punishment' as being the same.
But she wrote in post #29 on this same thread

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You were looking for punishment, which is just another word for 'consequence'.
UUmom, How can you claim to have never said that you "don't see 'consequences' and 'punishment' as being the same"?
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#122 of 148 Old 08-31-2005, 07:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sweetpea333
I think the evidence of punished and controlled kids NOT knowing how to make good decisions on their own is glaringly obvious in college freshmen and thier behavior.
how do you know how they were raised, and also how do you explain all the kids who are well behaved?? are saying the bad kids must have had punishment in their life and all the good kids were raised gd method[/QUOTE]

You seem really angry at people here, and i haven't a clue why.
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#123 of 148 Old 08-31-2005, 07:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by nonconformnmom
But she wrote in post #29 on this same thread



UUmom, How can you claim to have never said that you "don't see 'consequences' and 'punishment' as being the same"?
i don't. But I think other people do. A consequence isn't the same as punishment. A consequence is when you got out in the rain and get wet. that was about 39 posts ago. :LOL By multiple people, UnschoolMa and Dar in cluded.. And by the way, where are you two?

What sort of consequence would you not see as punishment? I already stated what mine were--i think in the post you're referring to, but who knows where that is. You could do a word search...

It's quite hard to have a genuine conversation when people are being so argumentative and not reading carefully.
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#124 of 148 Old 08-31-2005, 07:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by nonconformnmom
But she wrote in post #29 on this same thread



UUmom, How can you claim to have never said that you "don't see 'consequences' and 'punishment' as being the same"?

i absolutely do not.

ETA--wait, i think i answered this question already. I;m starting to repeat myself. Again.

And again.

In the end, if people want to punish their children, it's nt illegal or anything. It's just not GD. Oh wait, i said that too. I think I'll go read the more comforting Unconditonal Parenting thread... Come join us-- perhaps that will help some to understand where some of us GD types are coming from,

Or not .
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#125 of 148 Old 09-01-2005, 10:41 AM
 
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Well...I am a gentle parent with a gentle discipline style. I don't subscribe to any one "method" be it "unconditional parenting" which I think some consider to be the only true GD or any other for that matter. If it feels wrong...I try not to do it. Some things about UP don't appeal to me...it's too vague...I need practical tools and advice...I don't have time for theory and philosophy many days...I just need to have a quiet house so I can keep the baby sleeping so I can sleep.

I don't shame or embarrass my children into behaving the way I want them to...I don't use time outs or spanking or threat of either, I don't use bribery or manipulation. But I do have expectations and they are based on common mutual decency and respect. No swearing or namecalling etc.

I consider the way I parent to be Gentle discipline. BUT my children to have consequences and rules....because it works best this way. I have child 4 on the way and we are a blended family as well...my husband is away a lot so I have to create peace in my house for the benefit of the whole family.

UUMom...I have to say that throughout all your posts I have gotten the impression that you think consequences and punishment are the same thing. I too must have misread your posts...but it did come across that way to me.

To the OP who asked what consequences we use for our teens

Well here is an example...my dd went to my brothers...was supposed to be home at 11pm when she went out with her friends, came up with a scheme to stay at my former SIL(where she could have stayed out past curfew), call me from my brother's then go out again.

The consequences...I will not drive her to my brother's house again, she is to have no contact with my ex SIL(who actually concocted teh scheme) because I spent all night worrying about her when I needed to sleep because I had to get up early..I am pregnant and have 2 other children, the SIL has given her alcohol and is generally a negative influence and because she created chaos for me and my family plus my brother. Maybe it sounds punitive but actually it's just my natural response to what I consider dangerous behaviour. I will not put my self through the worry of her wandering the streets of a city miles away while I worry and wait, helpless at home. We have talked about my reasons and she knows that her actions are responsible for my reactions. She doesn't like it but she knows that everytime I trust her she blows it. She has to regain my trust.

That's one example. Well..that's the only example right now...otherwise it's life as usual.
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#126 of 148 Old 09-01-2005, 11:05 AM
 
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Originally Posted by allgirls
UUMom...I have to say that throughout all your posts I have gotten the impression that you think consequences and punishment are the same thing. I too must have misread your posts...but it did come across that way to me. usual.

Well, I'll try this one last time. Then interpretation is left to the point of view of the reader. Consequences are when you go out in the rain and get wet. A consequence of not doing your laundry means you have no clean clothes. These things are consequences, but they are not punishment, therefore are not the same.

OTOH, some people make up 'consequences'. "If you don't do A, B and C, then I will not allow you to do D, E and F." This is an example of arbitrary consequences as punishment.

Clear as mud?
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#127 of 148 Old 09-01-2005, 05:35 PM
 
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I think the problem is we are sometimes using the word "consequences" without differentiating between "natural consequences" (getting wet)
or "logical consequences" (parent imposed but relating directly to the infraction) or just "consequences" which may or not be logical, natural or even rational .
These are three very different things.
For example If my teenager talks on the phone half the night and doesnt hang it up to recharge.
The natural consequence is the cordless phone is dead the next day and neither one of us can make calls.
The logical consequence is taht she must only make calls from the chair next to the phone so that the phone does not get lost or left in he rroom.
A "consequence" that might not be either would be that I make her clean out the garage as punishment because of my anger. (regardless ofwhether this would actually teach her anything. )

So it is kinda dangerous to say "I am for consequences" or "I am against consequences" or "consequences are just another word for punishment" or whatever without it getting really confusing!!

For example I think (pardon if this is a misinterpretation, just trying to clear things up) That UU mom is trying to say that she thinks natural consequences are a good teaching tool. (getting wet) so she does "use them" to help her children learn. But also that logical consequences which are imposed by the parent are not natural, and are therefore akin to punishment(with some exceptions for safety).

But when only the word "consequence" is used. It becomes hard to differentiate exactly what is being referred to.

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#128 of 148 Old 09-02-2005, 07:53 PM
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Back from vacation

"Logical consequences" are punishments - they're imposed on someone with less power by someone with more power, in an attempt to manipulate behavior. "Natural consequences" are, well, life... but I try to help my child avoid them if possible, because I think it's the kind thing to do. If my daughter keeps leaving books outside and I see a book outside and it's starting to rain, I could just leave the book and let the "natural consequence" be that the book gets ruined, or I call out, "Rain! It's raining, and I think that's your book on the table outside!" or if she's not around I would probably go get it myself... and I would expect the same from her. If she sat and watched a book of mine get ruined in the rain I'd be pissed.

One thing about kids going out - I've physically prevented my daughter from leaving the house at 2 am when she was upset, and another time I left with her and walked down the block with her and talked her home... just letting her go wasn't an option - it wasn't safe. I have no problem with doing this - my job is to keep her safe. I would feel wrong about saying something like, "If you walk out that door, you're grounded for a week," even if the end result was that she didn't take off. I think that's just delaying the inevitable - some day she'll turn around and say, "Fine, ground me!" and walk out.
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Originally Posted by nonconfornmom
To me, consequences (used sparingly and judiciously with the appropriate age groups) allow children to know that 'if I do _____; then ______ will happen.' Which then leads them to the thought process of 'I don't want _____ to happen; therefore I won't do ______.' or alternatively, 'I can accept _____ because I really want to do _______ even though I know I'm not supposed to.' Result: control lies with the child.

As opposed to: 'If I do ______; then mom or dad will talk to me and try to help me figure out what to do so I won't keep doing it or so that we can lessen the impact on my family,' etc. The second approach, for some children, may make them feel as if they must be incapable of making their own decisions or taking control of their own behavior. They need mom or dad to help them figure out how to handle it. When they are away at college, now what? Mom and Dad aren't there to help them solve the problem.
This really hasn't been my experience, and I think that your second scenerio doesn't happen very often with teens who've been raised this way. I know Rain considers the consequences of her actions a lot, but they're *real* consequences. "If I do X, this person might feel left out, because usually we hang out together on that day. I really want to do X, though. I could tell her I'm not feeling well, but that's dishonest. I wonder if she'd like to do X with me? Well, I could ask her, I guess. Maybe if she doesn't want to come we could hang out on this day instead," and so on. She might ask me if I could drive her somewhere, and she'll usually check with me when she makes plans to go somewhere ("Hey, Mom, T is driving me to writing group and then we're going to hang out for a while, 'k? I'll call if we stay out past dark."

I think the first scenerio really shows why consequences (punishments) *don't* work - if the child is focused on the punishment, then her decision rests on whather she's willing to accept that punishment and how much she wants to do X. Without punishments, she's focusing on all of the possible results of her action, not just a punishment. If she's been raised in an atmosphere of problem-solving, she also knows that she can probably do X in a safer way, with some creative thinking...

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#129 of 148 Old 09-03-2005, 12:24 AM
 
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yep...I found for my oldest daughter...she was very self-controlled and made pretty sound decisions for herself until around December of last year. Then it all went nuts..it felt like it was overnight..suddenly the kids I trusted to do the right thing for the right reason just didn't seem to care anymore..if anyone got hurt by her actions, if she was careless and put her in danger etc. etc. She suddenly became impulsive and careless and uncaring..she changed so much in a short time..well..it's almost a year and in that time I have had to completely change what we were doing that worked for 12 years. Talking, discussing, problem solving continued but then we had to back it up with serious boundaries because once out of our sight she didn't care anymore...I even investigated whether she was on drugs but found no evidence of that...it's just that the change was so sudden.

I think it's the teen years...they can be tough for any child no matter how they were raised for the first years...when they decide do irrational and dangerous things...well...for me all bets are off.

Anyway...right now I am going one day at a time. I am trying so hard to keep her as close as possible. She is fighting me every step of the way though.
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#130 of 148 Old 09-03-2005, 12:57 AM
 
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RIght before my daughter turned 13 it was like she was posessed. She became an entirely different person too.
Thank the heavens this lasted for a very short time. SHe had the super intense teen transition.
Not only did she turn 13 but 2 months before she moved from 7th to 8th grade.
So even before she was a teenager she was thrown in with a bunch of 14 year olds and was expected to be, feel, and act 14.
It was terrible terrible terrible.
She told me later that she "couldnt trust herself to make good decisions".
This is a child who had always had her head on straight. And suddenly it just wasnt working properly. And she even knew it and it scared her.
Right now she has just started high school and things are pretty calm. She is making rational decisions and seems to know when she is a little over her head and we talk talk talk and have a great relationship.
But when she was going through all of that. There was no talking. I couldnt possibly know anything about what it was like so I wasnt worth talking to.

Mom of four, I hope things get better with your dd. I think that when a child behaves in an out of control manner, it is because they feel out of control. I think that firm boundaries under such circumstances can be very centering and help them feel more under control.
We are out on the other side and it is lovely. Hope to see you here soon!
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#131 of 148 Old 09-05-2005, 11:02 AM
 
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Right now things are better at home...I know my daughter thrives under structure and boundaries and actually is much happier that way even though she fights it...it's the wierdest thing. It think she knows she is making bad decisions and actually wants someone to make some for her so she doesn't have to do it herself.

Anyway..tomorrow school starts..she has registered for her classes and I asked them yesterday when do they want to do their homework...as soon as they get home or after dinner and they both voted for as soon as they get home...my oldest does have a job and is very responsible with that so far...not being late and working all her shifts...they love her there and it makes her feel good plus she is making her own $$$. They have only given her 2 short shifts a week once school starts...just perfect!

It's funny...she fights to do things her own way but thrives under our boundaries...she's trying to find the balance I guess but doesn't have the maturity to get there.

I am hopeful
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#132 of 148 Old 09-05-2005, 12:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by allgirls
Right now things are better at home...I know my daughter thrives under structure and boundaries and actually is much happier that way even though she fights it...it's the wierdest thing. It think she knows she is making bad decisions and actually wants someone to make some for her so she doesn't have to do it herself.

Anyway..tomorrow school starts..she has registered for her classes and I asked them yesterday when do they want to do their homework...as soon as they get home or after dinner and they both voted for as soon as they get home...my oldest does have a job and is very responsible with that so far...not being late and working all her shifts...they love her there and it makes her feel good plus she is making her own $$$. They have only given her 2 short shifts a week once school starts...just perfect!

It's funny...she fights to do things her own way but thrives under our boundaries...she's trying to find the balance I guess but doesn't have the maturity to get there.

I am hopeful
Are you using boundaries and consequences to mean the same thing?
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#133 of 148 Old 09-05-2005, 12:31 PM
 
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Mom of four, I hope things get better with your dd. I think that when a child behaves in an out of control manner, it is because they feel out of control.
you must have me confused with someone else.
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#134 of 148 Old 09-05-2005, 01:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by UUMom
Are you using boundaries and consequences to mean the same thing?
not really but generally consequences following her breaching the boundaries...the consequences are different now than they used to be...and I am using more preventative measures now.

I used to let her do things and trust her...now I don't let her do certain things...because she is not acting responsible and in fact acting dangerously. I am on top of her a lot more than I ever had to be. I have stopped her having contact with my former SIL who has been a terrible negative influence on her. Well there are a lot more limits. And it's better...her life was too dramatic and it needs to be simpler. We are striking a balance...also I am noticing with all these distractions at a minimum we are talking and relating better which is positive in my opinion.

It's getting better and what I am seeing is that generally she is happier...she gets angry when she can't do teh things she wants to at that moment but overall she is a happier girl. I see laughter and joking again now..whereas she was all sullen and angry before. I don't expect it to be a smooth trip but at least we have made progress. And she agrees
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#135 of 148 Old 09-05-2005, 01:15 PM
 
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I agree that these are different things. We have lots of agreed upon boundaries. My kids aren't ok to do 'whatever they want'--which in my book would be to take off without telling me where they were going, or not calling when they get to where they are going or taking my car without checking on what my car needs are etc. Or in the case of the schooled kids, to blow off school demands, like homework etc. We try to work together to come up with plans that will work for us.

The consquences part is something *completely* different. One of which might be "You can't just take my car without checking whether I need it. We have to work out something where we can both get to where we need to go".. Ok--teen does not yet have a license, but this is what i am imagining a scenario could be like...

As for what you are saying is preventative, is this an example: One of our boundaries is that our children cannot go into a home where there are no parents. So either dh or I bring her right to the door to drop her off (not punitively, just to be thoughtful parents) , say hi to the parent and ask when pick up is. This way our child knows we mean what we say and she doesn't even have to consider we won't helo keep her safe as best we can.

Another boundary we have is that our teens cannot roam around the mall. Not that we wish they could without hassle, but because the security guards aren't nice to teens. Teens cannot even stop moving in the mall, and only one person at a time can stand near a payphone--the guards make the others walk as one child makes a call. We don't think this is a safe, respectful or healthy envrinoment. Thankfully, my teens are happy to go to a movie and then leave. They can get a pizza at a different place, or come home for pizza with their friends.

In agreement, boundaries & consquences aren't the same.
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#136 of 148 Old 09-05-2005, 04:42 PM
 
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some of the consequences I have recently implemented...if she is not home by 11pm she doesn't go out the next evening. This is an easy one as I am the driver for most of their outings.

She will say she is going to one place then I find out she's at another, not so safe location..I will drive there and pick her up(I hate doing this because it embarrasses her) but if you saw some of the places she goes well, anyway, she doesn't want me to show up so she no longer goes.

I also have a buddy group thing going with her friends' parents...we call each other to collaborate their stories...she will tell me her friends parents are driving, her friend tells her mom I am driving...we now call each other to get times and locations and phone #'s.
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#137 of 148 Old 09-06-2005, 05:32 PM
 
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you must have me confused with someone else.
SOrry,
you're right. I was meaning to refer to ALLGIRLS I ought to have scrolled down to double check my memory. Sorry
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#138 of 148 Old 09-06-2005, 07:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by johub
Mom of four, I hope things get better with your dd. I think that when a child behaves in an out of control manner, it is because they feel out of control. I think that firm boundaries under such circumstances can be very centering and help them feel more under control.
We are out on the other side and it is lovely. Hope to see you here soon!
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since you meant me I have to say I agree...she does seem more in control of herself when we have more control (I don't like that word really) The boundaries we have in place help her maintain calm and peace and though she rebels and threatens when she doesn't get exactly what she wants when she wants it she at least has time to reflect and deal whereas when she was living with my brother their home was total and utter chaos. And then she would come home and we had rules about respect and it was a shock to her. Being here now and having most of her life in order it's much better. Let's see how this first day of school goes shall we
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#139 of 148 Old 09-06-2005, 07:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by UnschoolnMa
We use no consequences, other than the natural ones that occur, and sometimes that doesn't have a chance to happen either. (I have picked up something they left outside rather than letting it get stolen or ruined, etc)

We are pretty big on talking in our family. If something comes up that any one of us isn't comfortable with we discuss it, and we come to a place of agreement.

After seeing similar responses of yours, I'm curious.... Do you mind a hypothetical? If not, let's say for example, your 16 year-old daughter goes to the high school dance and it's agreed that she will come straight home from the dance and be there by midnight. Midnight comes and goes and she strolls in at 2:30 AM with a half-dollar sized hickey in the middle of her neck. How is that handled? What would the natural consequences be?
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#140 of 148 Old 09-06-2005, 07:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by irinam
Same here.

We don't set curfew for the members of our family, we just inform one another when we are going to be home. If for one reason or another the other family member wishes that this time is changed, we discuss it.

Disrespect towards one another would be hurtful to a reciever, so we usually don't do it. If it happens because somebody did not think about it, we talk and usually appology/explanation follows.

Those apply to me, DH, DS and DD
This is fascinating. How old are your children?
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#141 of 148 Old 09-06-2005, 08:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Starr
I just had to share this story, to give you MY parents view:

In 10th grade right before Christmas break I came home from a date with a hickey.
Ha!!! I swear I had not read this when I posted my hypothetical about the dance and the hickey!!! :LOL
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#142 of 148 Old 09-06-2005, 08:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by nonconformnmom
What I suggested to her is that she turn her computer off at night and then turn it back on in the morning before she steps in the shower and that way it will be up and ready for use when she is showered and ready to start her day. A simple solution, but she wasn't happy with it, which is why the next step was to let her experience a day without access so that perhaps 3 minutes waiting time for it to start up would not seem like such a hardship.
I may very well get stung, but if you are paying the electricity bill and you think it's too much energy (though I'd guess it may be just a few pennies and am now curious to know what it would cost [I drive myself crazy and am so thankful for the Internet!!!]), I don't see ANYTHING wrong with your solution.
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#143 of 148 Old 09-06-2005, 08:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Curious Me
This is fascinating. How old are your children?
DS is 18 (it's years, not months :LOL ) and DD is 5
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#144 of 148 Old 09-06-2005, 08:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by UUMom
So are you saying shame and punishment are GD if people decide they are? I let my baby CIO, but I am still a respectful parent? I am still "AP' because I say I am?

ETA a question mark after 'respectful parent'.
What is ETA? CIO?
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#145 of 148 Old 09-06-2005, 08:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Curious Me
What is ETA? CIO?
Edited To Add

Crying It Out
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#146 of 148 Old 09-06-2005, 08:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Dar
with you while you're interrupting me" or "I'm not willing to pay $2.25 a load to wash the same laundry twice without it being worn in
This is somewhat familiar to me. How is it resolved if the clean clothes eventually did end up in the dirty laundry basket instead of being worn?
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#147 of 148 Old 09-06-2005, 08:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nonconformnmom
Here's a question for those of you who say you don't use consequences in your home: Why did you open this thread?




It would really be nice if you could have the grace to allow those of us who wish to discuss consequences to do so in peace.

Huh????? After all that anger and crap flying from every direction, I thought this thread had finally calmed to a reasonably nice discussion. Here we go again........
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Originally Posted by allgirls
I am proud to say though that all of these boundaries have been set in place with minimal yelling on my part...I am staying calm even though she lets me down time after time. But I cry a lot when she's not around because I worry so much.

I hope she comes through this and at 18 or 20 starts to see that I had to do it...it wasn't punishment, it was prevention.
Hang in there Carolyn. It sounds like you are doing a great job and I'm sure at some point she will definitely appreciate all of your efforts.
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