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Old 06-22-2006, 07:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by secretresistance
And there is a prime example of what I would call sexism. It is absolutely unfair to judge the intent of every teenage boy based off of the behavior of those that you knew.

Also, just how do the actions of these theoretical daughters hinge so strongly on what the majority teenage boys are assumed to be like? Every male between the age of 13-19 could be scientifically proven to be interested in sex to the detriment of everything else, and I still wouldn't expect it to rule what my daughter does.

Why are the daughters being viewed as such usable beings here? Unless, god forbid, force or abusive coercion enters into the equation, our daughters can control of what they do, and are capable of making the choices they see as best. The better we as parents equip them to make good choices, the better off they will be. Standing guard and controlling things takes much needed power away, and that I find that prospect very scary.


LoL. I judge teenage girls that would date my son in the same way. Please look up sexism, i favor no sex in this argument, pun intended.


The boy in question will either be liked or disliked. She will still date whoever she wants, but I would hope that she was smart enough to choose an 'upstanding' young man. If not, that is her decision.


And if he hurts my daughter.... he can't claim he wasn't 'warned'.

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Old 06-22-2006, 07:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by secretresistance
And there is a prime example of what I would call sexism. It is absolutely unfair to judge the intent of every teenage boy based off of the behavior of those that you knew.

Also, just how do the actions of these theoretical daughters hinge so strongly on what the majority teenage boys are assumed to be like? Every male between the age of 13-19 could be scientifically proven to be interested in sex to the detriment of everything else, and I still wouldn't expect it to rule what my daughter does.

Why are the daughters being viewed as such usable beings here? Unless, god forbid, force or abusive coercion enters into the equation, our daughters can control of what they do, and are capable of making the choices they see as best. The better we as parents equip them to make good choices, the better off they will be. Standing guard and controlling things takes much needed power away, and that I find that prospect very scary.
This attitude that she's talking about doesn't rule out that it might be HER that wants the sexuality to enter in, not him. I do feel like these stereotypes are ignoring plenty of alternative situations that could arise. I mean, it's great that your fending off all the rabid boy-wolves out there, but I think this is kind of silly and ignoring the fact that often, girls are just as interested in sex as boys are.
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Old 06-22-2006, 07:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by secretresistance
Where is this assumption coming from? The fact that some are expressing the idea that it's the daughter's choice who touches her, not her father's?:

The fact that someone would stick up for a boy who honks at the drive way for the daughter to come out.... that creeps me out.


Someone who would stand up for a boy who shows (in the fathers opinion) no respect for his daughter and family.... that creeps me out.

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Old 06-22-2006, 07:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by treereach
This attitude that she's talking about doesn't rule out that it might be HER that wants the sexuality to enter in, not him. I do feel like these stereotypes are ignoring plenty of alternative situations that could arise. I mean, it's great that your fending off all the rabid boy-wolves out there, but I think this is kind of silly and ignoring the fact that often, girls are just as interested in sex as boys are.


read post 61. i am an equal oppourtunist. i hold the same thought process for 'young ladies' as i do for 'young men'.


Takes 2 to tango, my friends didnt have sex on their own.... I did, but they didnt.

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Old 06-22-2006, 07:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Yoshua
wow, it kinda creeps me out that so many people want their daughters touched by their dates.
I never said (did anyone?) that I wanted my daughter (or son for that matter) to be touched by their date. What I am talking about is my child being in control of what happens to her. At 16 or 17 I want my teen to know her own comfort zones and boundaries as opposed to me or her father making all those decisions for her.

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Old 06-22-2006, 07:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by secretresistance
Where is this assumption coming from? The fact that some are expressing the idea that it's the daughter's choice who touches her, not her father's?:
For the record I was agreeing with you there! (I think lol) : Just to be clear... I know we are getting confusing.

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Old 06-22-2006, 07:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by UnschoolnMa
I never said (did anyone?) that I wanted my daughter (or son for that matter) to be touched by their date. What I am talking about is my child being in control of what happens to her. At 16 or 17 I want my teen to know her own comfort zones and boundaries as opposed to me or her father making all those decisions for her.

At 16 or 17 it doesn't matter what the parents think. the children will make their own decisions.


however if someone pulls into my drive way and honks expecting my daughter to come out to them, they are mistaken. That is disrespectful to my daughter, and our house hold.



I wouldn't require them to come in, but to at least come to the door where my chair is positioned 'by accident' to be viewed while I am polishing my shotgun/revolver/sharpening my arrows. That will be expected, also to be close enough to hear me bark out

'WHAT TIME WILL YOU BE HOME?'

for her to answer

and for me to say 'insert boys name here* ONE HOUR EARLIER THAN THAT' and he had better listen. if he wants round 2





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Old 06-22-2006, 07:32 PM
 
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The honking part is the only part that made any sense at all, the rest was just drivel of a man trying to look tough and ignoring the fact that this is the way human sexuality works, and his time would be better spent teaching his daughter how to defend herself if she wants to and proving to her though his actions that women don't need to be, say, look like, and do everything that a man wants.
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Old 06-22-2006, 07:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by treereach
it's great that your fending off all the rabid boy-wolves out there, but I think this is kind of silly and ignoring the fact that often, girls are just as interested in sex as boys are.
That doesn't mean I want or hope my daughter goes out and has sex at 16. It just means that I realize sex is not ONLY enjoyed or wanted by teenage boys.

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Old 06-22-2006, 07:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by UnschoolnMa
For the record I was agreeing with you there! (I think lol) : Just to be clear... I know we are getting confusing.
We're definitely on the same page! I was asking Yoshua about his assumption.
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Old 06-22-2006, 07:40 PM
 
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2: touching my daughter in front of me.... the first time you meet if your hands touch anywhere on my daughter other than her hands, you are not showing proper respect (only in my opinion) of how precious she is to me.


3: I don't want to see your underwear. Wear clothes that fit and we have no issue here.

4: It is a joke intended to inform. I do not approve of sex, and I will kill you if you forget to use a condom. My daughter has probably already been given condoms BY ME, but he does not need to know about this, and they are not there to facilitate or be thought of as 'dad gave me permission'


5: I don't know you. I don't want you to 'impress me' be yourself and have my daughter back at an appropriate time. That is brownie points.

6: I full heartedly agree with this statement. If my daughter and you both agree you have an open relationship to date whoever you want, fine. Do not lie to my daughter so she will date you, and then date her best friend behind her back. You will not like what happens.


7: My daughter is precious, I do not care how long it takes her to get ready, you should also deem her so. Wait for her in anticipation, not boredom.

8: This is a joke, but lays down the thoughts of what is appropriate. The fact that some of you believe fathers do not want their daughters to be happy.... to be honest.... is a bit frightening.

9: True statement. Don't be an idiot son, and I won't have to go to jail.

10: Don't be late.



those translations help at all?

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Old 06-22-2006, 07:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Yoshua
At 16 or 17 it doesn't matter what the parents think. the children will make their own decisions.
Well, my oldest is about to turn 15 and he still cares what I think. He does make his own decisions, and he looks to me for opinions and guidance. Not orders or threats about what time he better be home.


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however if someone pulls into my drive way and honks expecting my daughter to come out to them, they are mistaken. That is disrespectful to my daughter, and our house hold.
What if your daughter doesn't find it disrespectful? Now I do want and hope to meet my childrens' friends and dates. I enjoy getting to know them (as opposed to actually requesting that they never speak to me.) But if my daughter has known someone for a long time and they come to pick her up and they honk...how is that disrespectful? Hell my husband came home early recently to get me to go run errands. He pulled into the driveway and honked and we left. No big deal.

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I wouldn't require them to come in, but to at least come to the door where my chair is positioned 'by accident' to be viewed while I am polishing my shotgun/revolver/sharpening my arrows. That will be expected, also to be close enough to hear me bark out

'WHAT TIME WILL YOU BE HOME?' for her to answer

and for me to say 'insert boys name here* ONE HOUR EARLIER THAN THAT' and he had better listen. if he wants round 2
Well it wouldn't be "an accident" that you are cleaning a gun in his view. That is just false, clearly. It would be an intentional attempt to scare and intimidate him. How is that respectful of your daughter or the young man? Also, you would ask your daughter when she will be back only to completely dismiss it and then put the boy (that you don't trust?) in charge of when to be home? Why would you dismiss your daughters voice/answer and defer to this boy you already do not trust? Where is the respect in this?

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Old 06-22-2006, 07:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by UnschoolnMa
Well, my oldest is about to turn 15 and he still cares what I think. He does make his own decisions, and he looks to me for opinions and guidance. Not orders or threats about what time he better be home.



What if your daughter doesn't find it disrespectful? Now I do want and hope to meet my childrens' friends and dates. I enjoy getting to know them (as opposed to actually requesting that they never speak to me.) But if my daughter has known someone for a long time and they come to pick her up and they honk...how is that disrespectful? Hell my husband came home early recently to get me to go run errands. He pulled into the driveway and honked and we left. No big deal.



Well it wouldn't be "an accident" that you are cleaning a gun in his view. That is just false, clearly. It would be an intentional attempt to scare and intimidate him. How is that respectful of your daughter or the young man? Also, you would ask your daughter when she will be back only to completely dismiss it and then put the boy (that you don't trust?) in charge of when to be home? Why would you dismiss your daughters voice/answer and defer to this boy you already do not trust? Where is the respect in this?

my daughter will know that i find it disrespectful to me. therefore it will be a non issue.


as for respectful of the young man? People earn respect. he has not accomplished this on the first date.

as for deferring to the boy. he is driving. he has control of when and where my daughter goes anywhere that night.

If she was driving, it would be her i talked to.

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Old 06-22-2006, 07:49 PM
 
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[QUOTE=UnschoolnMaHell my husband came home early recently to get me to go run errands. He pulled into the driveway and honked and we left. No big deal. [/COLOR]

Now see I found it highly offensive if anyone honks and expects me to come running. I would find it equally offensive if someone did this to one of my children (date or otherwise). I don't even respond to honks outside my door.

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Old 06-22-2006, 07:50 PM
 
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[QUOTE=Houdini]
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnschoolnMaHell my husband came home early recently to get me to go run errands. He pulled into the driveway and honked and we left. No big deal. [/COLOR

Now see I found it highly offensive if anyone honks and expects me to come running. I would find it equally offensive if someone did this to one of my children (date or otherwise). I don't even respond to honks outside my door.

/agreed

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Old 06-22-2006, 07:53 PM
 
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2t didn't mention 'hands' sorry, just creepy and I think SHE'LL tell him when to stop touching her

3, and blue jeans are for harlots and whats up with that grease in your hair? And no skirts above the ankles either! Can anyone say the next generation?

4:ummm, sorry, the joke wasnt about condoms it was saying that HE was the barrier between her and the date. C-R-E-E-P-Y

5, I don't want to talk to you or know what kind of person my daughter will be around. If I can be threatening enough, you'll just go away, right?

6:Nevermind what you two decide to do, I'm going to make the rules as to how your relationship will proceed. Because??

7:Fine, whatever. But nevermind teaching your daughter about respecting other people, and why is she putting on all that make-up anyways? Does she not think she looks good by herself?

8:Chainsaws are ok, but romantic movies aren't ?? have you seen one of these mivies lately?? Where a half-dressed girl is being ripped apart by some maniac? Can anyone say repressed desires here?

ok, I'll stop here. There is another way of looking at this you know.
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Old 06-22-2006, 07:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Yoshua
LoL. I judge teenage girls that would date my son in the same way. Please look up sexism, i favor no sex in this argument, pun intended.
The fact that you would judge girls does not negate the sexism I'm seeing here. In fact, it doubles it!

Varied definitions of sexism:
Quote:
Definitions of Sexism on the Web:

*Prejudice or discrimination based on gender. Like other "isms," sexism can be personal, as when someone tells a joke or makes a remark that demeans a woman because of his or her gender, or institutional, as when women are paid less than men doing the same work.
http://www.culturalpartnerships.org/...s/glossary.asp

*defines the ideology of male supremacy, of male superiority and of beliefs that support and sustain it. Sexism and patriarchy mutually reinforce one another.
http://www.ruralwomyn.net/define.html

*Sex-based discrimination against a person. The concept was coined along the lines of concepts of racism (race-based discrimination) and ageism (violation of the rights of the elderly). It was put into circulation by American feminist, political scientist Kirsten Amundsen in her book "Silent majority. Women and American democracy" (1971).
http:// www.undp.am/publications/gender/wsr/Z+++/Glossary.htm

*Bias against a certain gender.
www.coolnurse.com/sex_glossary/glossary_s.htm

*Usually experienced by a woman as male supremacy, male privilege, denial, and silencing. Oppression based on gender.
www.letswrap.com/LetsWRAP/Spring97/isms.htm

*Treating people differently because of their gender.
re-xs.ucsm.ac.uk/cupboard/exam/examsupp/dloads/cp/cp35.htm

*discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of the opposite sex
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

*Sexism is discrimination against people based on their sex rather than their individual merits.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexism
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshua
The fact that someone would stick up for a boy who honks at the drive way for the daughter to come out.... that creeps me out.

Someone who would stand up for a boy who shows (in the fathers opinion) no respect for his daughter and family.... that creeps me out.
Where are you seeing this?

Quote:
however if someone pulls into my drive way and honks expecting my daughter to come out to them, they are mistaken.
Because your daughter, of her own choice will ask for more consideration than that? Or because you plan to step in and take control of the situation?

Quote:
I wouldn't require them to come in, but to at least come to the door where my chair is positioned 'by accident' to be viewed while I am polishing my shotgun/revolver/sharpening my arrows. That will be expected, also to be close enough to hear me bark out
'WHAT TIME WILL YOU BE HOME?'
for her to answer
and for me to say 'insert boys name here* ONE HOUR EARLIER THAN THAT' and he had better listen. if he wants round 2
I don't see the benefit in being rude, threatening and hostilely distrustful from day one. It seems like a hotline to resentment and rebellion.
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Old 06-22-2006, 07:55 PM
 
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Yoshua

If one of my boys ever dates one of your daughters feel free to clean your gun 'accidently' in their view. Same goes for if my daughter ever dates a son of yours.

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Old 06-22-2006, 07:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by treereach
2t didn't mention 'hands' sorry, just creepy and I think SHE'LL tell him when to stop touching her

3, and blue jeans are for harlots and whats up with that grease in your hair? And no skirts above the ankles either! Can anyone say the next generation?

4:ummm, sorry, the joke wasnt about condoms it was saying that HE was the barrier between her and the date. C-R-E-E-P-Y

5, I don't want to talk to you or know what kind of person my daughter will be around. If I can be threatening enough, you'll just go away, right?

6:Nevermind what you two decide to do, I'm going to make the rules as to how your relationship will proceed. Because??

7:Fine, whatever. But nevermind teaching your daughter about respecting other people, and why is she putting on all that make-up anyways? Does she not think she looks good by herself?

8:Chainsaws are ok, but romantic movies aren't ?? have you seen one of these mivies lately?? Where a half-dressed girl is being ripped apart by some maniac? Can anyone say repressed desires here?

ok, I'll stop here. There is another way of looking at this you know.


as i said. you don't have the sense of humor to translate this. walk away if it creeps you out. the people who 'got' the joke found it funny just fine.

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Old 06-22-2006, 07:56 PM
 
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as for respectful of the young man? People earn respect. he has not accomplished this on the first date.
So he 'owes' you respect but you don't have to respect him because it's the first time your meeting him? How about having respect for everyone?
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Old 06-22-2006, 07:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Houdini
Yoshua

If one of my boys ever date one of your daughters feel free to clean your gun 'accidently' in their view. Same goes for if my daughter ever dates a son of yours.

I intend to, and I would expect the same if Jake came by to pick up one of your fine young ladies.


Just know that I would be polishing my gun on his way OUT the door saying 'if you hurt that girl, when her dad is done, it's my turn'


but, potato patahto.

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Old 06-22-2006, 07:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Yoshua
Takes 2 to tango, my friends didnt have sex on their own.... I did, but they didnt.

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Old 06-22-2006, 07:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by secretresistance
The fact that you would judge girls does not negate the sexism I'm seeing here. In fact, it doubles it!

Varied definitions of sexism:



Where are you seeing this?


Because your daughter, of her own choice will ask for more consideration than that? Or because you plan to step in and take control of the situation?


I don't see the benefit in being rude, threatening and hostilely distrustful from day one. It seems like a hotline to resentment and rebellion.



sex·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (skszm)
n.
Discrimination based on gender, especially discrimination against women.
Attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotyping of social roles based on gender.




Try the dictionary, it works better.

I don't discriminate based on sex or social roles. I treat them equally.

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Old 06-22-2006, 07:57 PM
 
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as i said. you don't have the sense of humor to translate this. walk away if it creeps you out. the people who 'got' the joke found it funny just fine.
I didn't need to remember? You 'translated' it for me. And your translation wasn't funny either, so quit trying to use my lack of a sense of humor against me.
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Old 06-22-2006, 07:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by treereach
So he 'owes' you respect but you don't have to respect him because it's the first time your meeting him? How about having respect for everyone?

darn straight. He is being blessed with an oppourtunity to go on a date with the most important woman in the world.


And he gets that oppourtunity through my good graces.

He better respect me.

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Old 06-22-2006, 07:58 PM
 
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2: touching my daughter in front of me.... the first time you meet if your hands touch anywhere on my daughter other than her hands, you are not showing proper respect (only in my opinion) of how precious she is to me.
Obviously it wouldn't be appropriate or comfortable for them to start making out or having sex right there. But I fail to see how him putting his hand on her back, shoulder, or leg is disrespectful. Do those body parts mean something I am unaware of or?

3: I don't want to see your underwear. Wear clothes that fit and we have no issue here. You do not get to decide how someone else dresses. Especially since this is someone else's kid. While I may agree that the "baggy pants underwear out" style is not my deal it's not my place to demand that someone else not wear it.


4: It is a joke intended to inform. I do not approve of sex, and I will kill you if you forget to use a condom. My daughter has probably already been given condoms BY ME, but he does not need to know about this, and they are not there to facilitate or be thought of as 'dad gave me permission'
It cannot be both a joke and literal. Either you will actually kill this young man, as in end his life and take him away from his family, or you will not. So you don't approve of sex but you understand that your daughter may have it, and you gave her condoms. (I would too btw) So does that mean you will kill him IF they have sex AND use condoms (because you dont approve of sex) and you will also KILL him if they don't use condoms?


5: I don't know you. I don't want you to 'impress me' be yourself and have my daughter back at an appropriate time. That is brownie points. IMO my daughter needs to enforce that she be back at the appropriate time, whatever we have all decided that will be. It's not "the man's job" to get the little lady home on time.

6: If my daughter and you both agree you have an open relationship to date whoever you want, fine. Do not lie to my daughter so she will date you, and then date her best friend behind her back. You will not like what happens.
I agree that him lying and cheating would be terrible, and I would not respect him for doing so. The threat of "You will not like what happens" is bizarre. What does that even mean? The only thing that would/should happen (IMO) is that my daughter would stop dating him. What are you going to do...kill him again?

8: This is a joke, but lays down the thoughts of what is appropriate. The fact that some of you believe fathers do not want their daughters to be happy.... to be honest.... is a bit frightening.
To be honest, the fact that some people (fathers?) feel it is appropriate to threaten their kids' dates with violence and to dismiss their daughter's thoughts wierds me out too.

So is this your approach for handling your son dating too? Will you be threatening the girl that comes to the house with a shotgun?

"The true measure of a man is how he treats a man who can do him absolutely no good."
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Old 06-22-2006, 08:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by treereach
I didn't need to remember? You 'translated' it for me. And your translation wasn't funny either, so quit trying to use my lack of a sense of humor against me.


I didnt say 'lack' of sense of humor.


You do not have the sense of humor that would find this funny.


Your humor is found elsewhere. i do not know what you find funny, but I do not doubt the existance that you do find things humorous.


this is a joke that some people get, and some dont.

You don't. I do not judge you for it. I just don't understand why you would judge me for it.



I'm not a very judgmental kind of guy when it comes to peoples thought processes. but when it comes to what is best for my children i make judgement calls every day.

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Old 06-22-2006, 08:03 PM
 
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That's not what i meant. You switch tactics when trying to justify this by going back and forth between it being 'funny' and it being real. and you are using it to not address the fact that this concept is scary.
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Old 06-22-2006, 08:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by UnschoolnMa
2: touching my daughter in front of me.... the first time you meet if your hands touch anywhere on my daughter other than her hands, you are not showing proper respect (only in my opinion) of how precious she is to me.
Obviously it wouldn't be appropriate or comfortable for them to start making out or having sex right there. But I fail to see how him putting his hand on her back, shoulder, or leg is disrespectful. Do those body parts mean something I am unaware of or?

To a boy. yes. It means one step closer. I am a boy. I know.




3: I don't want to see your underwear. Wear clothes that fit and we have no issue here. You do not get to decide how someone else dresses. Especially since this is someone else's kid. While I may agree that the "baggy pants underwear out" style is not my deal it's not my place to demand that someone else not wear it.


You are right, i do not decide how someone dresses. But I do decide if you pick my daughter up at all.

4: It is a joke intended to inform. I do not approve of sex, and I will kill you if you forget to use a condom. My daughter has probably already been given condoms BY ME, but he does not need to know about this, and they are not there to facilitate or be thought of as 'dad gave me permission'
It cannot be both a joke and literal. Either you will actually kill this young man, as in end his life and take him away from his family, or you will not. So you don't approve of sex but you understand that your daughter may have it, and you gave her condoms. (I would too btw) So does that mean you will kill him IF they have sex AND use condoms (because you dont approve of sex) and you will also KILL him if they don't use condoms?

Yes it can. It is a joke if he listens.


5: I don't know you. I don't want you to 'impress me' be yourself and have my daughter back at an appropriate time. That is brownie points. IMO my daughter needs to enforce that she be back at the appropriate time, whatever we have all decided that will be. It's not "the man's job" to get the little lady home on time.


It is the drivers job. If she is driving then you are correct. If he is driving then you stand corrected.



6: If my daughter and you both agree you have an open relationship to date whoever you want, fine. Do not lie to my daughter so she will date you, and then date her best friend behind her back. You will not like what happens.
I agree that him lying and cheating would be terrible, and I would not respect him for doing so. The threat of "You will not like what happens" is bizarre. What does that even mean? The only thing that would/should happen (IMO) is that my daughter would stop dating him. What are you going to do...kill him again?


Bizarre to you. and yes.


8: This is a joke, but lays down the thoughts of what is appropriate. The fact that some of you believe fathers do not want their daughters to be happy.... to be honest.... is a bit frightening.
To be honest, the fact that some people (fathers?) feel it is appropriate to threaten their kids' dates with violence and to dismiss their daughter's thoughts wierds me out too.

I am glad for you


So is this your approach for handling your son dating too? Will you be threatening the girl that comes to the house with a shotgun?

I won't threaten anyone. His dates won't be coming to pick him up, i will have taught him to treat this girl with respect as well as her family. He will probably be following my lead on what respect for these people are 'at least when he goes to pick them up'. He will get threats from me if he mistreats a girl and god forbid I ever find out he cheats on anyone. I believe in natural consequences. Natural consequence to cheating on someone when you could have just said 'things aren't working out' are this.

No car
No video games
No allowance
No trust.


trust is an earned thing between parents and offspring too. When it is broken, it must be built back up. A humans heart is a precious thing and should be treated that way. These are beliefs I 'hope' to instill in my sons and daughters. I hope I do not fail.


My methods may not be the same as yours, but my intentions are the best.

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Old 06-22-2006, 08:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by treereach
That's not what i meant. You switch tactics when trying to justify this by going back and forth between it being 'funny' and it being real. and you are using it to not address the fact that this concept is scary.

oh, problem solved!


This concept isn't scary to me. and it isn't scary to EVERYONE.


Don't let your son date girls with dads like this! problem solved!

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