Sex Before Marraige... Mamabug told me to repost here.... - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 158 Old 07-22-2006, 10:03 PM
 
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Well, I'm pregnant with my first, but I'm already thinking about the teenage years, lol!

I'm definitely planning on being open with my daughter and letting her make her own decisions. I plan on being supportive and helpful. My mother merely paid lip service to "you can talk to me about anything". She said it, but I could tell from her actions that it was not true. She was very rarely supportive of my goals, or the goals of my siblings. She was definitely the type of parent that made you want to rebel, not only to assert your independence, but to prove her wrong. (She's the type who has a hard time admitting she's wrong, and this was a huge factor in some of the decisions I made very early on.) I was the type of child so many parents fear. I was deceptive. I hid my problems very well. I had so much going on inside that I never truly felt I could share with my parents, because, whether they wanted to be or not, they were very judgemental. I ended up getting into an abusive relationship at only 12 years of age, with someone I barely knew. The scars from that relationship carried on throughout my teenage years. If I would have had real support, none of it ever would have happened. It sounds terrible, but I still sort of blame my parents. I don't want my children to carry any of the baggage I carry. I know terrible things will happen in their lifetime, but I want to be the one they go to to help them heal. Now that I'm getting an outside look at things (my younger sister is 15, and still living with my mom.) I can definitely see where the damage was done. My mother now talks to me as an adult, but to my sister as a child. Every decision she makes is limited, even tiny things like the number of glasses of milk she can have in a day, or the style of shoes she wears. My "healing" was sex, my brother's was attention (for doing things that could get him hurt), my sister's is food. She is not all that heavy now, because my mom is often around to monitor everything she eats, but I know once she is on her own, she'll have a hard time controlling it.

Sorry to get so off topic, I'm just giving a story of someone whose parents were not supportive. No matter what you decide you want for your children, make sure you not only tell them you're there for them, but show them every day, and remember that actions speak louder than words. It really can make all the difference!

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#32 of 158 Old 07-22-2006, 10:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by nonconformnmom
Sex is an integral part of a committed relationship between adult partners and therefore, it is critical that two people know, really know, that they are compatible sexually before they make what should be a lifelong commitment.
Exactly.

And, we should remember some of our children are gay. I think it is appropriate to use gender neutral pronouns in discussions with kids.

Some kids who hear about no sex before marraige get involved in a "anything but" game where oral sex or anal sex are considered alternatives which may or may not be enough to prevent whatever problems parents are concerned about.

To me telling your child do this or do that is really missing what needs to be a more complex conversation. It isn't the parent's choice what the kid does and it makes more sense to me to instead discuss the implications of a variety of choices and help the teen figure out what is right for them. If you take a firm stance "no sex until the wedding" you may well find you are cut off from further conversations when the kid really needs you because they will have already broken your rule.
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#33 of 158 Old 07-22-2006, 11:05 PM
 
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To me telling your child do this or do that is really missing what needs to be a more complex conversation. It isn't the parent's choice what the kid does and it makes more sense to me to instead discuss the implications of a variety of choices and help the teen figure out what is right for them. If you take a firm stance "no sex until the wedding" you may well find you are cut off from further conversations when the kid really needs you because they will have already broken your rule.

I am encouraging my children to wait until they are married. This is a part of our belief system. I am also teaching them about the implications of the various choices they may/may not make. I am not naive enough to think that by telling my child anything they will automatically comply. I do want to make sure they understand why it is so important to wait until marriage, but I will support them if they choose a different path.

I think it is entirely possible to be informative and arm your children with the knowledge they need to know about sex as well as encourage them to wait until marriage.

Rebecca wife of Megan...moms to six crazy kiddos! Seth (15), Madison (13), Zachary (12), Trevor (12), Alex (10), and Nicholas (9)
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#34 of 158 Old 07-22-2006, 11:27 PM
 
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I'm not married yet, and have two kids. I've had a variety of sexual partners (of both sexes) since 15, and am technically nonmonogamous now.
I obviously don't believe in waiting until marriage (in fact, I think to do so would be a mistake) and don't regret my sexual history at all. I'll teach my children how to prevent sti's and pregnancy (use a condom during all types of sex, and get tested regularly), the importance of consent, and to be respectful of theirs and others' bodies.
When they start showing signs of budding sexuality, I'll have a little giggle and a cry that my babies are growing up.
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#35 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 12:23 AM
 
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What a great topic. As the stepmom of a 14yo, mother of a 13yo, 10yo, and so on, this subject comes up often.

When I was young, my mother told me NOTHING. Not about sex, or boys, or kissing, or even my cycles. I was scared to death when I began my period at age 10.

I don't believe sex is an unnatural desire...remember, Romeo and Juliet were young teens. Once those hormones kick in, you need to be prepared.

As a side note, we do talk a great deal about bc/pregnancy/vd. The Pill will not protect your daughters from venereal warts or syphilis or even herpes.

Condoms break. IUDs cause breakthrough bleeding and/or uturine rupture.

The "shot" is related to heavy weight gain and massive breakthrough bleeding.

I'm not anti-birthcontrol...I just want to make sure the facts are out there.

My 13yo dd says she's never having babies (or sex) because of her large family. We'll see. We'll see. At least if she DOES decide to have female/male intercourse, she'll know all her options, including abortion.

love, penelope

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#36 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 12:35 AM
 
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"...sex is NOT ok... intercourse/anal/oral... none is OK... there are so many other things to focus on during the teen years.. why add to the drama?"

Wow.

The teen years are ALL about drama. Did you remain a virgin until your marriage? Did you never "neck" under the bleachers? Are you seriously saying that sex is unnatural???

Sex is how we got here. We live longer now, and that makes it more complicated for parents who are looking at their kids completing BASIC school at 18. Used to be that by 14 they'd be betrothed or married.

SEx is a natural part of life, and if you believe in God, then you must believe that those hormones start rushing at that age for a reason.

love, penelope

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#37 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 03:36 AM
 
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Originally Posted by 1growingsprout
sex is NOT ok... intercourse/anal/oral... none is OK... there are so many other things to focus on during the teen years.. why add to the drama?
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Originally Posted by spruce
The teen years are ALL about drama. Did you remain a virgin until your marriage? Did you never "neck" under the bleachers? Are you seriously saying that sex is unnatural???
I am not the person who posted the first quote obviously, but I thought I would jump in on this one.

My own personal opinion is the teen years are all about drama as you said, but I do believe that it is much better for kids to wait until marriage. That for us goes back to belief system in our family though.

The questions above......unfortunately I didn't wait for marriage. I have only been with my husband though. I have never had any other parents for any of the above sexual acts except my spouse. I kicked myself for not waiting as it was something I truly wanted to do. My parents had no opinion either way as to waiting or not. The question about necking under the bleachers....not really sure what is being asked, but I never made out with anyone on school grounds. I had one other serious boyfriend and we did "make out" on occasion, but I never really had any interest in sex with him. I don't believe 1growingsprout was implying sex is unnatural. It seems they have very clear views on what they feel is appropriate and not appropriate. I think sex is completely natural and I also believe you can control your sexual urges. I think that a lot of times sex occurs because kids put themselves in the position to allow it to happen. By keeping yourself separated from the opportunity the odds of sex occuring go down dramatically.


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Originally Posted by spruce
Sex is how we got here. We live longer now, and that makes it more complicated for parents who are looking at their kids completing BASIC school at 18. Used to be that by 14 they'd be betrothed or married.
Yes, sex is how we got here. Yes, we live longer nowadays though I am not sure what the completion of any type of schooling has to do with the decision to maintain your virginity until marriage. As far as past history betrothing/marrying their 14 year olds....well there are lots of things we did in the past that weren't exactly the best idea.

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Originally Posted by spruce
SEx is a natural part of life, and if you believe in God, then you must believe that those hormones start rushing at that age for a reason.
I do believe in God and I do agree sex is natural part of life. I think that just because I get the urge to do something doesn't make it a good idea to follow through with the urge. My belief in God and what the bible says is why I will encourage my children to follow His word.

Rebecca wife of Megan...moms to six crazy kiddos! Seth (15), Madison (13), Zachary (12), Trevor (12), Alex (10), and Nicholas (9)
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#38 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 10:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Houdini
I am encouraging my children to wait until they are married. This is a part of our belief system. I am also teaching them about the implications of the various choices they may/may not make. I am not naive enough to think that by telling my child anything they will automatically comply. I do want to make sure they understand why it is so important to wait until marriage, but I will support them if they choose a different path.

I think it is entirely possible to be informative and arm your children with the knowledge they need to know about sex as well as encourage them to wait until marriage.
I think we are talking about two different things. To me it sounds like you are saying you don't just say "no sex before the wedding" but instead no sex and here's lots of reasons why it may ruin your life if you do.

What I'm saying is that hopefully sex feels good and sex is fun. If you tell your kids plenty of reasons why it is bad so they better not do it until they are married, you've right there stopped the conversation. When they figure out it is fun, where is your credibility at that point? When they've had sex and they realize that maybe it isn't what they want for the next ten years where is your credibility? When they are thinking about having sex but aren't sure how to do it safely - how are you there to help when you've already told them not to do it?
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#39 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 10:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Houdini

I do believe in God and I do agree sex is natural part of life. I think that just because I get the urge to do something doesn't make it a good idea to follow through with the urge. My belief in God and what the bible says is why I will encourage my children to follow His word.
Is it your understanding that in biblical times people were officially or legally married before they had sex? That they waited to have sex until they were in their 20s or 30s? I'd love to see those passages.
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#40 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 04:55 PM
 
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I think we are talking about two different things. To me it sounds like you are saying you don't just say "no sex before the wedding" but instead no sex and here's lots of reasons why it may ruin your life if you do.

What I'm saying is that hopefully sex feels good and sex is fun. If you tell your kids plenty of reasons why it is bad so they better not do it until they are married, you've right there stopped the conversation. When they figure out it is fun, where is your credibility at that point? When they've had sex and they realize that maybe it isn't what they want for the next ten years where is your credibility?

I do not plan on telling my kids sex isn't good or fun. I will encourage them to wait for marriage because there really isn't any good reason I can see not to wait (coupled with our belief system). I also don't plan on telling them all the reasons it may "ruin" their life if they do engage in pre-marital sex. I will inform it does add more drama (for lack of a better word). I wasn't really going for the crediblity award in my choice. My kids will choose their own path and I will support them in whatever that decision is, but I will also encourage them to follow the principles of the bible.

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When they are thinking about having sex but aren't sure how to do it safely - how are you there to help when you've already told them not to do it?
I plan on teaching them about STD's and protection. They will learn how to protect themselves.

I am trying to figure out why it isn't possible to encourage them to wait for marriage and also teaching them about protection and STD's. Do you really believe it has to be one or the other?

Rebecca wife of Megan...moms to six crazy kiddos! Seth (15), Madison (13), Zachary (12), Trevor (12), Alex (10), and Nicholas (9)
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#41 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 05:10 PM
 
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Is it your understanding that in biblical times people were officially or legally married before they had sex? That they waited to have sex until they were in their 20s or 30s? I'd love to see those passages.
As in any time in history, not everyone waited until marriage for sex. There will always be those who decide to have sex outside of marriage.

The bible talks about waiting until you are married to have sex. If you aren't married until you are in your 20's, 30's, or whatever age...........you are to wait until the confines of marriage.

If you are truly interested in verses with talk about saving sex until marriage feel free to PM me and I would be happy to share those with you.

I am not aware of any passages that state a specific age you can choose to have sex outside of the confines of marriage, but I would love for you to share the passage with me (you can PM me).

Rebecca wife of Megan...moms to six crazy kiddos! Seth (15), Madison (13), Zachary (12), Trevor (12), Alex (10), and Nicholas (9)
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#42 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 05:32 PM
 
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The bible talks about waiting until you are married to have sex. If you aren't married until you are in your 20's, 30's, or whatever age...........you are to wait until the confines of marriage.
I think what the previous poster was discussing is that, in our society, the gap between puberty and "marriageable" age is much, much longer than it has been at any other point in human history-- both because puberty begins earlier and because "acceptable marriage age" is later.

So, if I were a Victorian teen, I might not begin menstruating till I were 15 or 16 or 17, and I'd be betrothed and married not long after that. Certainly within two or three years of puberty. I would almost certainly be married by the time I was 20.

NOW, it's very unusual for a girl to go past the age of 13 or so for menarche, and yet they are expected to wait to marry until they've completed their schooling, so at LEAST a five-year gap, and probably closer to a decade or fifteen years.

Say I start puberty at 11, and get married at 23; (which is still considered a very young age for marriage in most American communities) that's a twelve-year gap between puberty and the onset of sexual activity.

Never have human beings expected that degree of sexual abstinence in the general population, aside from special religous communities specifically set up to promote celibacy through gender segregation and ascetic practices like fasting, etc.

Is it really reasonable (or desirable!) to expect a decade or two of celibacy during peak sexual maturity, when we have NEVER had that expectation at any point in human history?

I don't think it is. I don't think it's possible, on a large scale, to apply the cultural principles of the Bible to situations in which the entire cultural and biological landscape has changed so fundamentally, and I think that's really at the heart of the "teenage immorality" that has been so decried.

We've just failed to come up with ways to talk about "premarital sex" that respect it for what it is... an expression of sexuality in a culture that refused to accomodate it till it burst out in its own right.
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#43 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 05:45 PM
 
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Is it really reasonable (or desirable!) to expect a decade or two of celibacy during peak sexual maturity, when we have NEVER had that expectation at any point in human history?

I don't think it is.
There are other things that are of different expectations in today's society than in the past. Why should keeping sex within the confines of marriage be any different? Just because something is difficult or requires commitment on the part of the person doesn't mean it should be eliminated as possible.

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#44 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 05:59 PM
 
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There are other things that are of different expectations in today's society than in the past. Why should keeping sex within the confines of marriage be any different? Just because something is difficult or requires commitment on the part of the person doesn't mean it should be eliminated as possible.
Sure, anything is possible-- a really determined person can do a lot when she puts her mind to it. If that really is an individual's goal, I've got nothing against it.

What I'm talking about is large-scale social expectations and sweeping moral statements like "sex should wait until marriage, because the Bible says so."

I think that sort of attitude really creates an atmosphere where sexual activity before official marriage is considered a "failure" of some sort, and I think that's got a negative impact on our cultural ability to address young-adult sexual activity in a positive, constructive way. Never before have we had such a negative attitude about sexual activity by the young. Even the Victorians had a healthier and more realistic attitude toward it than we do, sometimes. And they had ways of allowing young people to act on their sexual desires with the blessings of their communities.

We don't. We tend to either condemn it, or pretend it's not happening, which is just absolutely ridiculous.

And WRT "other things that are of different expectations," I'm interested to know what you are referring to... lots of things are discussed in the Bible that aren't acceptable parts of our cultural landscape now. Slavery comes to mind.
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#45 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 06:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
Sure, anything is possible-- a really determined person can do a lot when she puts her mind to it. If that really is an individual's goal, I've got nothing against it.


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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
What I'm talking about is large-scale social expectations and sweeping moral statements like "sex should wait until marriage, because the Bible says so."
This isn't the only reason we will encourage our kids to wait until marriage, though it is a part of it.

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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
I think that sort of attitude really creates an atmosphere where sexual activity before official marriage is considered a "failure" of some sort, and I think that's got a negative impact on our cultural ability to address young-adult sexual activity in a positive, constructive way.
I think it can be approached in a way that makes it not seem like a "failure" if they choose to not wait. If you are open with them about your reasons and also be open to the possibility they will choose something different for themselves, then your children will know that ultimately they have the final word in their decisions.


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Originally Posted by eightyferrrettoes
Never before have we had such a negative attitude about sexual activity by the young.
I disagree with this statement. I think the society of today is much more accepting of pre-marital sex than in years past. It wasn't that long ago that girls were sent away to have babies out of wedlock (that were often given up for adoption) as to not shame the family. There were also many marriages that were expected to happen due to unexpected pregnancies.

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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
Even the Victorians had a healthier and more realistic attitude toward it than we do, sometimes. And they had ways of allowing young people to act on their sexual desires with the blessings of their communities.
I don't really have much knowledge of the Victorian era so I will go with what you say on this.

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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
We don't. We tend to either condemn it, or pretend it's not happening, which is just absolutely ridiculous.
I am guessing this has to do with allowing young people to act on their sexual desires with the blessings of the communities. Again, I think the idea of pre-marital sex is much more acceptable than it has been in years past. I am sure there are still those who will condemn or pretend it's not happening, but I think society is much more accepting of it.

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Originally Posted by eightferrettoes
And WRT "other things that are of different expectations," I'm interested to know what you are referring to... lots of things are discussed in the Bible that aren't acceptable parts of our cultural landscape now. Slavery comes to mind.
I have no idea what WRT is.

I wasn't necessarily talking things of different expectations according to just the bible. I was thinking more along the lines of higher expectations for college when obtaining a job....that kind of higher expectations.

Rebecca wife of Megan...moms to six crazy kiddos! Seth (15), Madison (13), Zachary (12), Trevor (12), Alex (10), and Nicholas (9)
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#46 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 06:52 PM
 
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My baby ate my point-by-point post!

I don't think it's possible to pretend that a couple of 16 year olds in the back of a car are afforded the degree of respect and seriousness that we viewed teenage marriage with in the past.

We might put up with it, but we don't view that relationship as being anything more than the satisfaction of animal lust. Or we call it puppy love. Or we tell them they spend too much time together. Or we just pretend that they aren't having sex.

My grandmother married at 16, not uncommon at that time-- her family of origin gathered to CELEBRATE the onset of her sexual activity. A celebration! Complete with religious endorsement of her blossoming sexuality! She got lovely presents and a chance to dress up.

She wasn't even old enough to lose her virginity at the prom, like we do now. But nobody would think of condemning her for having sex with her 26-year-old new husband. (and nobody would call him a child molester for marrying her, or say much about the years he spent visiting the local brothel...)

We don't do any of that now for young adults. Our culture gives a sneer of thinly-veiled disgust to young lovers now... of course their relationships tend to disintegrate; can you imagine if you and your husband had no privacy for lovemaking, no social regard for the emotions you feel for each other, no approval from your families?

I remember loving my high school boyfriend as intensely as I love my now-husband, but my family moved completely across the country in spite of my impassioned pleas to not pull us apart. They were happy that we'd probably break it off after awhile. And I wasn't old enough to marry him, or to even decide to leave my parents and strike out on my own.

We might "tolerate" the fact that teens have sex, but we sure don't celebrate young love like we used to do. No wonder our "morality" education has been such a spectacular failure!

The ages and the acts haven't changed. Our teenagers aren't becoming more immoral-- its' the culture that has failed to acknowlege that the gap between puberty and marriage is a freakin chasm now, when it never used to be. The average age of first marriage has been rising for decades now, while the average age of puberty has been dropping.

and yeah, I think that if you're using the Bible as a template for acceptable or preferable sexual morality, you have to keep in mind the cultural norms surrounding marriage in that ancient culture. To include things like teenage marriage, later puberty, sexually-active betrothals... and even polygamy!

And yes, we have "higher expectations" about education-- and I think that pretending that THAT isn't part of the problem with idealizing virginity at official marriage is an exercise in futility.

ETA: To clarify, I don't believe that it's a bad thing that we expect higher education from our kids, and I don't believe it's a bad thing that we delay the White Wedding till the people involved are in their 20s.

But I do think it's ridiculous to ignore the conflicting and historically-unprecedented pressures that these changes put on people, under the rubric of "premarital sex is bad." How can "premarital sex" be so awful and untraditional and shameful, when "marriage" isn't what it used to be, either?
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#47 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 07:11 PM
 
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The bible talks about waiting until you are married to have sex. If you aren't married until you are in your 20's, 30's, or whatever age...........you are to wait until the confines of marriage.
OK, but I think you have to acknowlege that, in terms of biblical history, not being married by 30 is a complete anomoly. Especially for a girl!

We legally prohibit people from getting married at the ages that people married in the bible.

So yeah, I think it's a little dishonest to tell your kids that you think the bible has the ideal for sexual morality, when they lack the choice to get married at 14 or 15.
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#48 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 07:25 PM
 
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Serial posting to say, gosh, it just now struck me that my old "puppy love drama" with the high school boyfriend happened when I was the same age as my grandma in her wedding pictures. The ones that are cherished family heirlooms now, in the silver frames.

And my parents "lost" all the pics of my boyfriend in our move.

Wow. I just don't know how to process that, exactly. : Suddenly I'm just really, really angry again, after all these years.
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#49 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 07:30 PM
 
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My baby ate my point-by-point post!
Sorry, I found this funny!

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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
I don't think it's possible to pretend that a couple of 16 year olds in the back of a car are afforded the degree of respect and seriousness that we viewed teenage marriage with in the past.
Honestly, I don't see where a "couple of 16 year olds in the back of a car" should be afforded the degree of respect and seriousness of marriage. I don't think teenage marriage is always a good thing, but it certainly can be.

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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
We might put up with it, but we don't view that relationship as being anything more than the satisfaction of animal lust. Or we call it puppy love. Or we tell them they spend too much time together.
This would be something that would differ from family to family. I don't think it is impossible to fall in love with your future spouse as a teenager. I have several friends who married their high school sweetharts. I do think that teen couples can spend too much time together. It is important to spend time with other friends as well as with your bf/gf.

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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
My grandmother married at 16-- her family of origin gathered to CELEBRATE the onset of her sexual activity. A celebration!
My grandmother was married at 15. Her family gathered to celebrate her marriage. I don't think they were gathering specifically to celebrate the onset of her sexual activity....for all I know my grandmother may have been sexual active before marriage.

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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
We don't do that now. Our culture gives a sneer of thinly-veiled disgust to young lovers now... of course their relationships tend to disintegrate; can you imagine if you and your husband had no privacy for lovemaking, no social regard for the emotions you feel for each other, no approval from your families?
I am not sure I have ever experienced a situation where young lovers who were married were given a sneer of thinly-veiled disgust....though maybe you mean they are also seen as being old enough to make it in their marriage.

I am having trouble following this quote, but I will answer according to what I see it as meaning. As far as having no privacy for spouses....you got me there. I have never experienced a situation where a husband and wife had no privacy to make love. As far as the lack of social regards for the emotions....again no experience. I will need a bit more explanation and/or an example to decipher this one. The lack of approval from families could come at any age and at any time. This isn't exclusive to teen marriages.

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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
We might "tolerate" the fact that teens have sex, but we sure don't celebrate young love like we used to do.
I am not sure where in history we ever really celebrated pre-marital sex. As far as teen marriage that has changed a lot through the years as well in the level of acceptance. The celebration of young love is really up to how the family chooses to address this.

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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
No wonder our "morality" education has been such a spectacular failure!
I am not sure what "morality education" you are referring to. I would say whatever this morality education is though is a guarantee failure due to the huge difference in the morals of each family. There is no way for an educational setting to teach morals to my child if they don't share the morals of my family and the same goes for any other family I would guess.

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Originally Posted by eightferrettoes
The ages and the acts haven't changed. Our teenagers aren't becoming more immoral-- its' the culture that has failed to acknowlege that the gap between puberty and marriage is a freakin chasm now, when it never used to be.
I really don't see where today's society is pushing/encouraging abstinence as the only option. I also don't see society condemning teens for engaging in pre-marital sex. Teenagers being moral or immoral is really up to how the individual person views it. What is moral to you (general moral) may not be the same for the person beside you (again general you). I think today's society is quite a bit more tolerant than in years past. As far as the gap between puberty and marriage I guess that would depend on when the child hit puberty. I think the gap has always existed and has always been a different size depending on the person. I didn't start my period until I was 16 and I got married two weeks before I turned 19. Not that big of a gap.

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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
and yeah, I think that if you're using the Bible as a template for acceptable or preferable sexual morality, you have to keep in mind the cultural norms surrounding marriage in that ancient culture. To include things like teenage marriage, later puberty, sexually-active betrothals... and polygamy!
I think the bible can be used as a template and it can be applied to today's culture. At every point in history cultural norms have been subject to change. Today is no different. The basis of bible stands even with the changing of society.

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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
And yes, we have "higher expectations" about education-- and I think that pretending that THAT isn't part of the problem with idealizing virginity at official marriage is an exercise in futility.
I don't follow this one. I was referring to needing a college degree for better jobs nowadays as opposed to say when my dad was looking for work. I am not sure what that has to do with idealizing virginity at official marriage.

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#50 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 07:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
Serial posting to say, gosh, it just now struck me that my old "puppy love drama" with the high school boyfriend happened when I was the same age as my grandma in her wedding pictures. The ones that are cherished family heirlooms now, in the silver frames.

And my parents "lost" all the pics of my boyfriend in our move.

Wow. I just don't know how to process that, exactly. : Suddenly I'm just really, really angry again, after all these years.
Sorry your parents "lost" all the pics of your boyfriend. Maybe, the wedding picture has survived b/c your grandmother held onto it and it was passed to her children after her death??

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#51 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 07:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Houdini
Sorry your parents "lost" all the pics of your boyfriend. Maybe, the wedding picture has survived b/c your grandmother held onto it and it was passed to her children after her death??
she ain't dead yet.

Are you implying that I was careless with my cherished photos by entrusting them to my parents and that their loss is my own fault?

hmmmm.
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#52 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 07:42 PM
 
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eightyferrettoes said: The ages and the acts haven't changed. Our teenagers aren't becoming more immoral-- its' the culture that has failed to acknowlege that the gap between puberty and marriage is a freakin chasm now,

:

We, as a society and as familiies and communities, need to accept "young" love for what it is...love. It can grow and blossom and create beautiful families if we help it to.

In the book "The Babycatcher," the author tells a story of a teen who was pregnant and requesting the author's services as a midwife. The author presumed that the the teen was an unwed mother, but came to find that the teen girl's (woman's?) mother had urged her to marry the (eventual) father of that baby, because flirting and "showing offf" was against their religion.

By the end of the book, you find that the young woman and her husband have become staunch supporters of their religion, and have four children. They are moving to the Middle East (Lebanon, I think), so that she can become a midwife to the women of her faith.

She was Muslim.

If Christians (or any religion) would accept young love for what it is, and celebrate it instead of deriding it, we would be better off.

love, penelope

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#53 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 07:55 PM
 
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I thinkk the bible can be used as a template and it can be applied to today's culture. At every poI thinint in history cultural norms have been subject to change. Today is no different. The basis of bible stands even with the changing of society.

So you think that if a man rapes a girl, he should just pay her family the equivallent of 50 shceckels (sp) and she 's his wife now?

The Bible has huge inconsistancies and errors as far as our society is concerned.

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#54 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 08:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Houdini

Honestly, I don't see where a "couple of 16 year olds in the back of a car" should be afforded the degree of respect and seriousness of marriage. I don't think teenage marriage is always a good thing, but it certainly can be.
That's just it. Teenagers cannot get married under most circumstances, and they're actively discouraged from seeking marriage till fairly late even if they could. Would you honestly be thrilled if your kids came to you and said they wanted to get married at 14 or 16 or 18? What if your 16-year-old daughter announced her burning desire to marry a man ten or twelve years her senior? Those kinds of things were perfectly acceptable by biblical standards.

Most people, OTOH, would encourage the kids to "at least wait till you're done with high school!" or "wait till you're done with college and you can get a good job to support your family!"

All this waiting-- at some point, something's got to give, for most of us.

All I'm saying is that we consider marriage to be a time of family formation, and, rightly or wrongly, we have chosen to delay the "ideal" onset of family formation till the early-to-mid 20s for girls, and the mid-to-late 20s for boys, for the most part.

And I'm saying that this is a much, much bigger break with the bulk of human history than we are typically willing to acknowlege.

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I do think that teen couples can spend too much time together. It is important to spend time with other friends as well as with your bf/gf.
Considering again that teenagers are either prohibited or discouraged from marrying, let's put that in the context of a first marriage. Can you imagine telling a pair of newlyweds that they are "spending too much time together?"

Would it be any of your damn business, as long as they were carrying out their daily tasks, that they chose to spend their every other waking moment together? I didn't think so. That'd provoke a major "Can you BELIEVE what my MIL told my DH???" thread if she were an MDC poster. Followed by 5 pages of "oh noes she didn't!" responses.



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My grandmother was married at 15. Her family gathered to celebrate her marriage. I don't think they were gathering specifically to celebrate the onset of her sexual activity....for all I know my grandmother may have been sexual active before marriage.
Very possible. I address here the onset of "publically acknowleged" sexuality... though it's no mistake that the white dress, symbolizing virginity, is a component of the ceremony. If she WERE sexually active, her community sure didn't know about it or care to comment upon it.

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I am not sure I have ever experienced a situation where young lovers who were married were given a sneer of thinly-veiled disgust....though maybe you mean they are also seen as being old enough to make it in their marriage.
Yes! Gracious, isn't it just awful that we look at a couple of 18 year olds as if they'll "never make it?" Surely you experienced some of that, even after getting the official piece of paper. Imagine how much worse without the piece of paper! Nobody takes you seriously at all.


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As far as having no privacy for spouses....you got me there. I have never experienced a situation where a husband and wife had no privacy to make love. As far as the lack of social regards for the emotions....again no experience. I will need a bit more explanation and/or an example to decipher this one. The lack of approval from families could come at any age and at any time. This isn't exclusive to teen marriages.
Well, I'd say it's certainly a big facet. When marriage is, as I said, actively discouraged (and I think some of those reasons are culturally valid) it sets up a definite climate of expectation to fail when they transgress those boundaries.

And when they lack the chutzpah to go ahead and publically disappoint their parents by marrying young, they will still be sexually active, by and large; the culture may not sanction it, but marriage isn't really sanctioned for them, either.

We called it "setting them up for failure" back when I was in the Army-- it means not giving the tools, confidence, or information needed to succeed to a young soldier. It happens in other arenas, too.

And what I mean by "lack of social regard--" a teenage relationship can be broken apart by forces not within the teen's control. Parents can have their teen transferred to another school district, they can force the teenager to move across the country, they can put the teen under what amounts to house arrest; they can, if the age gap is wide enough, press statutory rape charges, etc.

All with the approval of the community at large.

An "adult" relationship under that kind of duress would have a hard time surviving.

Quote:
I am not sure where in history we ever really celebrated pre-marital sex. As far as teen marriage that has changed a lot through the years as well in the level of acceptance. The celebration of young love is really up to how the family chooses to address this.
I AM NOT SAYING WE HAVE EVER CELEBRATED PREMARITAL SEX. Well, okay, the Romans did. But that's not what I'm talking about here.

For the tenth time, I'm talking about the ways in which our failure to celebrate young-adult sexuality at all is, culturally speaking, very prevalent and not helpful to anyone.

We used to have teenage marriage. Now, we have.... ???? a big fat moral grey area.

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I think the gap has always existed and has always been a different size depending on the person. I didn't start my period until I was 16 and I got married two weeks before I turned 19. Not that big of a gap.
And very unusual. I started puberty at 11, and married at 20. That's 9 years! : And everyone said I was crazy for marrying so early-- most people I know don't marry till well past 25.

Statistically speaking, that gap is at least three times as big as it used to be. Yipes!

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I think the bible can be used as a template and it can be applied to today's culture. At every point in history cultural norms have been subject to change. Today is no different. The basis of bible stands even with the changing of society.
The bible is a product of a culture, not some unfailing, infallible basis for anything. Well, all sacred writings are products of cultures, and the further removed our own cultural context from the one that originated the writing, the greater the chances that we'll screw up the interpretation in the process of trying to "apply it."
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I don't follow this one. I was referring to needing a college degree for better jobs nowadays as opposed to say when my dad was looking for work.
Yes! And so often, a couple could marry at a young age, because they COULD then find decent work to support the new family. Now, it's much, much more difficult to marry, have kids, etc, and then find decent work at the age of 18 or 19 or even 23.

16? Forget about it!

Which is why we typically encourage our kids to not marry and start families till later in life. But we can't do that, and ignore their still-present sexuality, without serious consequences for everyone.
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#55 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 08:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
OK, but I think you have to acknowlege that, in terms of biblical history, not being married by 30 is a complete anomoly. Especially for a girl!

We legally prohibit people from getting married at the ages that people married in the bible.

So yeah, I think it's a little dishonest to tell your kids that you think the bible has the ideal for sexual morality, when they lack the choice to get married at 14 or 15.
I agree it wasn't the norm, but I am sure it wasn't unheard of.

I also know that in most states (I thought there were a couple that allowed marriage as early as 15) we legally prohibit marriage at the ages that people married in the bible.

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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
she ain't dead yet.

Are you implying that I was careless with my cherished photos by entrusting them to my parents and that their loss is my own fault?

hmmmm.
Now we all know what happens when one assumes......

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#57 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 08:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by spruce
If Christians (or any religion) would accept young love for what it is, and celebrate it instead of deriding it, we would be better off.
Careful lumping all Christians (or any religion) into one category. The acceptance of young love varies from family to family and may/may not have anything at all to do with religion.

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#58 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 08:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by spruce
So you think that if a man rapes a girl, he should just pay her family the equivallent of 50 shceckels (sp) and she 's his wife now?


Trying for the life of me to figure out what this has to do with the topic of sex before marriage and how I am choosing to encourage/teach my children.

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#59 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 08:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kimiij
Seems like you've got a lot of more liberal answers.

I will definitley encourage both my boys and my girls to wait until marriage. I think that sex is biological, emotional, and spiritual. They will have to make their own decisions but for their biological, emotional, and spiritual health, I will guide them towards what I think is optimal. I do not think that promiscuity (no matter how "safe") is smart and I don't wish that on my children or on anyone else's.
I am so glad I am not the only one who feels this way. My 3 sons and my daughter all know my views on this and respect them too.
Devlopent of a healthy self for me demands being 100% true to your values, and a major part of that means not seeing sex as a thing to banter around.
I try everyday to bring my children up to get a strong education, then get married then explore a healthy sexual realtionship inside of that marriage.
If any one disagrees with my conservitave Cathloic views they call all bugger off no badgering will change my mind!
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#60 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 08:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Houdini
I agree it wasn't the norm, but I am sure it wasn't unheard of.

I also know that in most states (I thought there were a couple that allowed marriage as early as 15) we legally prohibit marriage at the ages that people married in the bible.
Yes, it varies by state, though in all states you need written parental permission to marry before 18. If the parent chooses not to sign off on it, the marriage won't happen.

Which is sad, in a way-- I really think that people who push for "abstinence till marriage" need to take into account that teens can't do the "right" thing... in that situation; if it's "better to marry than to burn," why is their choice in the matter limited to "burn?"

Even Paul the celibate end-timer made allowances for human sexual desire, which is more than I can say for a lot of Christians today, when it comes to teenagers.

And, AFAIK, one of the prime arguments for Jesus having had a wife is that it was so unheard of for Jewish men of the time to have failed to marry by adulthood that it some explanation would have been necessary in the narrative-- the fact that his marital status is not mentioned in the canonical gospels tends to imply that he WAS married.
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