Sex Before Marraige... Mamabug told me to repost here.... - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 08:36 PM
 
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Trying for the life of me to figure out what this has to do with the topic of sex before marriage and how I am choosing to encourage/teach my children.
Well, you're saying that the Bible is a standard for moral human behavior regardless of cultural context; all she's saying is that there are some parts that most Christians don't like to uphold anymore.
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#62 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 08:45 PM
 
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Now we all know what happens when one assumes......
The point of the photo thing is that, while my grandmother could marry as a 16-year old, and go on to have children and grandchildren, I could NOT do that with my first love.

My loving sexual relationship was not taken seriously at all by anyone, and I was denied almost all opportunities to keep that committment. I don't think this is a particularly unusual situation for teenagers to find themselves in.

Say that I had tried to elope with my boyfriend-- my parents would certainly have vetoed the marriage, called the cops, and had me forced back into their house. Maybe pressed kidnapping charges.

And the fact that neither of us could have made a living to support ourselves, plus the lack of family support.... well, you don't have the makings of a happy ending, let's just say that.

So my sexual relationship was viewed as being "immoral" when in fact, it was not significantly different than my grandmother's sexual relationship. The only real difference was the lack of community support and respect. Who knows-- maybe I'd still be with that guy today if not for the disrespect that we have for young love! eeek!

Official marriage is something controlled by the powers that be, not so much the parties involved... why we uphold it as some unchanging standard is beyond me. The goalposts move regularly on that one.
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#63 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 08:46 PM
 
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I think the bible can be used as a template and it can be applied to today's culture.

This is what you've been saying through this entire conversation. IF the bible is truly applicable today, then the story I quoted would be also applicable.

Deuteronomy 23:28-29 "If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not enganged and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered, then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her, he cannot divorce her all her days."

This has everything to do with the topic of sex before marriage. According to the bible, a man could rape a virgin and then marry her, just by paying the father off.

You keep scratching your head and pretending you don't understand what's being said here when it doesn't fit your beliefs.

You said: Careful lumping all Christians (or any religion) into one category. The acceptance of young love varies from family to family and may/may not have anything at all to do with religion.

So your beliefs aren't based on your actual faith? Or they are when they're convenient to you? If you profess to be a Christian, Muslim, LDS, Flying Spaghetti Monster follower, your beliefs should be unified.

JMO.

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#64 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 08:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
That's just it. Teenagers cannot get married under most circumstances, and they're actively discouraged from seeking marriage till fairly late even if they could. Would you honestly be thrilled if your kids came to you and said they wanted to get married at 14 or 16 or 18? What if your 16-year-old daughter announced her burning desire to marry a man ten or twelve years her senior? Those kinds of things were perfectly acceptable by biblical standards.
14 - not thrilled......16 - not thrilled......18 - totally up to my child and I don't think I would have many issues with marriage at this age. As far as the burning desire.....I wouldn't allow my sixteen year old to me with a man ten/twelve years her senior. Right, wrong, or indifferent...it wouldn't happen.

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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
Most people, OTOH, would encourage the kids to "at least wait till you're done with high school!" or "wait till you're done with college and you can get a good job to support your family!"
I am completely encouraging my children (male and female) to wait for them to finish their degree (or whatever training they choose for their career). This is where the change in expectations comes into play. They would have a more difficult time if they couldn't support themselves.

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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
All this waiting-- at some point, something's got to give, for most of us.
And some teens do give in to the waiting for whatever reason. But....some of the teens out there do not give in for any reason until the are married.

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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
All I'm saying is that we consider marriage to be a time of family formation, and, rightly or wrongly, we have chosen to delay the "ideal" onset of family formation till the early-to-mid 20s for girls, and the mid-to-late 20s for boys, for the most part.
I think you are correct on this point. I don't really see it as a bad thing though.

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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
Considering again that teenagers are either prohibited or discouraged from marrying, let's put that in the context of a first marriage. Can you imagine telling a pair of newlyweds that they are "spending too much time together?"
I think that newlyweds can spend too much time together just the same as any other couple of any age.....especially if they are not socializing with anyone else in their circle of friends.

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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
Would it be any of your damn business, as long as they were carrying out their daily tasks, that they chose to spend their every other waking moment together? I didn't think so. That'd provoke a major "Can you BELIEVE what my MIL told my DH???" thread if she were an MDC poster. Followed by 5 pages of "oh noes she didn't!" responses.
I think that if it were my child and they were spending "every waking moment together," then yes I would talk with them about. The same as I would talk with friends or family that I saw doing the same thing. I don't think it is healthy to completely disconnect from outside sources. I guess that in years to come, you will see a thread about me!


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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
Yes! Gracious, isn't it just awful that we look at a couple of 18 year olds as if they'll "never make it?" Surely you experienced some of that, even after getting the official piece of paper. Imagine how much worse without the piece of paper! Nobody takes you seriously at all.
I only experienced negativity from a professor. My family and friends all supported me. I am sure there are some people out there that are less than supportive. I really didn't experience any issues with you can't be in love b/c you are only xx age.

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Originally Posted by eightferrettoes
We called it "setting them up for failure" back when I was in the Army-- it means not giving the tools, confidence, or information needed to succeed to a young soldier. It happens in other arenas, too.
Honestly, I think that this is one of the issues with pre-marital sex being more prevalent. I think some families don't expect that the child can wait for marriage and go the opposite direction by condoning pre-marital sex. I see nothing wrong with expectations. Maybe, if the child is treated as being able to succeed at abstinence then it would be more likely to happen. If you set the stage (allowing bf/gf sleepover, bowls of condoms on the counters...) for failure of abstinence, then why would the child think they could succeed. We all have expectations for our children...I don't see why this should be any different.

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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
And what I mean by "lack of social regard--" a teenage relationship can be broken apart by forces not within the teen's control. Parents can have their teen transferred to another school district, they can force the teenager to move across the country, they can put the teen under what amounts to house arrest; they can, if the age gap is wide enough, press statutory rape charges, etc.

All with the approval of the community at large.
I totally am with you on this one. I do believe; however, sometimes as parents we can see when a relationship is not healthy for our child and we need to take the steps necessary to protect our child even if the child doesn't agree with us or see the problem.

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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
An "adult" relationship under that kind of duress would have a hard time surviving.
An "adult" relationship wouldn't have to endure any of the above duresses.


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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
For the tenth time, I'm talking about the ways in which our failure to celebrate young-adult sexuality at all is, culturally speaking, very prevalent and not helpful to anyone.
See, this where we differ immensely. I think today's culture is entirely too accepting of young-adult sexuality.

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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
We used to have teenage marriage. Now, we have.... ???? a big fat moral grey area.
We also used to have legal protection for marital rape/abuse.....some things have been set aside (teen marriage 17 and under) because society realizes it isn't in the best interest of anyone.


Yes! And so often, a couple could marry at a young age, because they COULD then find decent work to support the new family. Now, it's much, much more difficult to marry, have kids, etc, and then find decent work at the age of 18 or 19 or even 23.

16? Forget about it!

Which is why we typically encourage our kids to not marry and start families till later in life. But we can't do that, and ignore their still-present sexuality, without serious consequences for everyone.[/QUOTE]

I don't see the serious consequences you see. Sorry, I just don't.

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#65 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 08:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
Which is sad, in a way-- I really think that people who push for "abstinence till marriage" need to take into account that teens can't do the "right" thing... in that situation; if it's "better to marry than to burn," why is their choice in the matter limited to "burn?"
They can wait until they are married to have sex. It is possible.

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#66 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 08:58 PM
 
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Well, you're saying that the Bible is a standard for moral human behavior regardless of cultural context; all she's saying is that there are some parts that most Christians don't like to uphold anymore.
I am saying that for my the morals/values I am teaching my family the Bible is the standard. I have not said anything about it applying to all families. Each family will take into account cultural context and apply it their family. Same happens with my family.

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#67 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 09:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
The point of the photo thing is that, while my grandmother could marry as a 16-year old, and go on to have children and grandchildren, I could NOT do that with my first love.

My loving sexual relationship was not taken seriously at all by anyone, and I was denied almost all opportunities to keep that committment. I don't think this is a particularly unusual situation for teenagers to find themselves in.

Say that I had tried to elope with my boyfriend-- my parents would certainly have vetoed the marriage, called the cops, and had me forced back into their house. Maybe pressed kidnapping charges.

And the fact that neither of us could have made a living to support ourselves, plus the lack of family support.... well, you don't have the makings of a happy ending, let's just say that.

So my sexual relationship was viewed as being "immoral" when in fact, it was not significantly different than my grandmother's sexual relationship. The only real difference was the lack of community support and respect. Who knows-- maybe I'd still be with that guy today if not for the disrespect that we have for young love! eeek!

Official marriage is something controlled by the powers that be, not so much the parties involved... why we uphold it as some unchanging standard is beyond me. The goalposts move regularly on that one.
Honestly, you could have waited until you were legally able to be together. You are obviously not with this man today, so I that speaks volumes as to whether the relationship was meant to work or not.

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#68 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 09:08 PM
 
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They can wait until they are married to have sex. It is possible.
Respectfully, you admit that you only had about three years worth of "waiting for marriage." That ain't crap compared to the length of time most people would have to wait.

You can wait on almost anything for three years, and I'd say that a three-year gap is quite a reasonable thing for most people to handle

But make that ten years? Twelve or fifteen years? Sure, it's possible, but at the cost of denying an essential part of most people's humanity.

How is it better to burn for so long than to be in a relationship? How can you argue that marriage is the standard when the standard itself only bears a passing resemblence to the institution that was originally referenced?
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#69 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 09:09 PM
 
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This is what you've been saying through this entire conversation. IF the bible is truly applicable today, then the story I quoted would be also applicable.
It isn't applicable because today's culture is not the same as in the Bible. I have said that more than once as well. There are many things we take from the past (Bible and otherwise) and build on them applying them to today's culture. The idea of waiting until marriage is no different in my opinion. You take the Bible and apply to today's cultural norms (none of which condone rape).

Deuteronomy 23:28-29 "If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not enganged and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered, then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her, he cannot divorce her all her days."

I never said it wasn't in the bible.

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This has everything to do with the topic of sex before marriage. According to the bible, a man could rape a virgin and then marry her, just by paying the father off.
Which doesn't apply according to the norms of today's society.

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You keep scratching your head and pretending you don't understand what's being said here when it doesn't fit your beliefs.
I am actually scratching my head when the quote makes no sense in the context of sex before marriage and how I will encourage/teach my children.

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Originally Posted by spruce
You said: Careful lumping all Christians (or any religion) into one category. The acceptance of young love varies from family to family and may/may not have anything at all to do with religion.

So your beliefs aren't based on your actual faith? Or they are when they're convenient to you? If you profess to be a Christian, Muslim, LDS, Flying Spaghetti Monster follower, your beliefs should be unified.
All people in all walks of religion hold various aspects more important than others. I have not met a Christian yet that I can completely agree with on every point. Just as anyone as, regardless of religion, can find a person they completely agree with. Walk slowly on the slippery slope of accusation. It really does noone any good.

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#70 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 09:11 PM
 
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Honestly, you could have waited until you were legally able to be together. You are obviously not with this man today, so I that speaks volumes as to whether the relationship was meant to work or not.
Goodness gracious!

I'd like to know how it's possible to maintain a relationship across the Pacific Ocean with no telephone contact or letters! For two years! With no money for plane tickets! When your entire family repeatedly derides the whole thing as "ridiculous and soon to blow over!"

I really hope you treat your children's relationships less flippantly than you just treated the memory of mine. I am a little angry right now.
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#71 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 09:17 PM
 
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Respectfully, you admit that you only had about three years worth of "waiting for marriage." That ain't crap compared to the length of time most people would have to wait.

You can wait on almost anything for three years, and I'd say that a three-year gap is quite a reasonable thing for most people to handle

But make that ten years? Twelve or fifteen years? Sure, it's possible, but at the cost of denying an essential part of most people's humanity.

How is it better to burn for so long than to be in a relationship? How can you argue that marriage is the standard when the standard itself only bears a passing resemblence to the institution that was originally referenced?
Why set it up to fail. The idea that marriage means something different nowadays is a testament to the way society is moving. That doesn't mean everyone is on the bandwagon for the disintegration of marriage today.

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#72 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 09:18 PM
 
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Goodness gracious!

I'd like to know how it's possible to maintain a relationship across the Pacific Ocean with no telephone contact or letters! For two years! With no money for plane tickets! When your entire family repeatedly derides the whole thing as "ridiculous and soon to blow over!"

I really hope you treat your children's relationships less flippantly than you just treated the memory of mine. I am a little angry right now.
Sorry to make you angry. My brother was in a similar situation, but was moved to another state. They waited. It's possible. Not ideal, but possible.

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#73 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 09:21 PM
 
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Why set it up to fail. The idea that marriage means something different nowadays is a testament to the way society is moving. That doesn't mean everyone is on the bandwagon for the disintegration of marriage today.
Well, why set teen love up to fail by refusing to offer it any kind of social legitmacy?

And who said I was on the "bandwagon" for marriages to break up?

Maybe our failure to respect and celebrate love when it's young and passionate and too dumb to know any better yet gives rise to this "disintegration" of which you speak.
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#74 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 09:25 PM
 
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Sorry to make you angry. My brother was in a similar situation, but was moved to another state. They waited. It's possible. Not ideal, but possible.
Anything is possible. But why don't you think it's setting a young couple up to fail when something like that is allowed to happen? Because "parents know best?"

If you busted up thousands of pairs of newlyweds for two years with no contact, told them that their relationship was ridiculous every time they bawled about it, and fully expected them all to "move on," don't you think that'd help cause more than a few divorces?

Would you then belittle the awfulness of their experiences by telling them "it obviously wasn't meant to work out?"

I don't know what else to say to you.
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#75 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 09:26 PM
 
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Well, why set teen love up to fail by refusing to offer it any kind of social legitmacy?
Why do you believe teen love can't survive without sex? I never said that teen love should be set up to fail.

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And who said I was on the "bandwagon" for marriages to break up?
I didn't realize I said you were on the bandwagon. You said the marriage of today doesn't resemble marriage of the past. I agreed with you and stated I wasn't on the bandwagon.


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Maybe our failure to respect and celebrate love when it's young and passionate and too dumb to know any better yet gives rise to this "disintegration" of which you speak.
I don't recall saying we shouldn't respect/celebrate love when it's young.

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#76 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 09:32 PM
 
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Anything is possible. But why don't you think it's setting a young couple up to fail when something like that is allowed to happen? Because "parents know best?"
Absolutely there are times when parents know best. I also think that some situations require parental involvement. Do I agree with how my parents handled my brother...not really sure on that. They were together after they were of legal age for about a year and then parted ways. I honestly don't think the relationship was healthy, but I was an outside observer.

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If you busted up thousands of pairs of newlyweds for two years with no contact, told them that their relationship was ridiculous every time they bawled about it, and fully expected them all to "move on," don't you think that'd help cause more than a few divorces?
You keep returning to marriage. The topic is sex before marriage. I really don't know how the couples would do. Not really relevant to what the topic was supposed to be.

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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
Would you then belittle the awfulness of their experiences by telling them "it obviously wasn't meant to work out?"
Maybe that is the truth....maybe it's not. Maybe your parents felt there was something not right about the relationship.....maybe they were just out to ruin your teenage years. I wasn't there, so I really don't know.


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I don't know what else to say to you.
You don't really have to say anything else to me.....we differ in opinion. It doesn't have to be a one person is right and the other person is wrong scenario. I will do what I feel is best for my family, just as everyone else in the world will do what is right for their families.

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#77 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 09:39 PM
 
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Why do you believe teen love can't survive without sex? I never said that teen love should be set up to fail.
I think that's disingenous-- like saying that "marriage can survive without sex." It can, but sex is deeply entwined with love, and we all know that marriages without that deeply felt, regularly shared sexual connection tend to run into a lot of serious trouble in other areas.

Which is why we make the effort to maintain that sexual connection, even in times when it's not first on our priority list. Like postpartum.



[QUOTE] I didn't realize I said you were on the bandwagon. You said the marriage of today doesn't resemble marriage of the past. I agreed with you and stated I wasn't on the bandwagon.[QUOTE]

I suspect you and I are talking about differing aspects of change in marriage. I'm talking about how marriage has become much, much MORE restricted in terms of who can contract it, and I suspect you're talking about how it's become LESS restricted in terms of how it can be ended.

I think the divorce rate has been endlessly cussed and discussed and is old news, but nobody seems to want to talk about the other, even more fundamental, ways in which marriage has changed over the generations.

The wholesale, unprecedented, abandonment of teen marriage is the elephant in the room of teen sexual morality discussions, I think.

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I don't recall saying we shouldn't respect/celebrate love when it's young.
I think that denying its sexual aspects is inherently disrespectful, just as it would be inherently disrespectful for you to deny the sexual aspects of my marriage, or to consider them immoral. And I think we have a real tendency, as parents, to attempt to legislate who our kids can or can't love-- and there is a certain degree of disrespect there, too, as if we are telling our kids that they don't know their own hearts.

Hell, my husband is 12 years older than I am. Wonder how THAT woulda gone over when I was sixteen or seventeen. We joke about it sometimes

But I've not changed so much since then... what about that relationship would have been so unsavory and dreadful then, that is so perfectly acceptable now?

50 years ago, nobody would have breathed a word about a 16 year old woman marrying a 28 year old. Now, you can go to jail for that sort of thing. Food for thought, anyway.
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#78 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 09:45 PM
 
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You keep returning to marriage. The topic is sex before marriage. I really don't know how the couples would do. Not really relevant to what the topic was supposed to be.
Maybe it's because we're talking about extramarital sexual relationships between people who are actually forbidden to marry? And who, throughout most of our history, would have actually been encouraged to marry early? Maybe?

I think it's funny that you keep talking about how we've changed our cultural standards since Biblical times so that their standards don't apply-- except, apparently, for THIS one. I don't get the selectiveness.

Seems to me that anybody who is all het up about premarital sex and divorce also ought to get het up about the completely modern abolition of teen marriage. Two sides of the same cultural coin.
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#79 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 10:12 PM
 
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I think it's funny that you keep talking about how we've changed our cultural standards since Biblical times so that their standards don't apply-- except, apparently, for THIS one. I don't get the selectiveness.
I never said there were no other aspects of the cultural standards of Biblical times that are not applicable today. This is the one aspect that is the topic of the thread. Any other aspects, unless they apply to the topic, are irrelevant to this thread. You are assuming this is the only aspect I carry with me in my daily life.

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#80 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 10:19 PM
 
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I never said there were no other aspects of the cultural standards of Biblical times that are not applicable today. This is the one aspect that is the topic of the thread. Any other aspects, unless they apply to the topic, are irrelevant to this thread. You are assuming this is the only aspect I carry with me in my daily life.
but the two "irrelevent" examples mentioned here DO pertain to the "biblical" standards regarding marriage and sex-- the forced automatic marriage of rapists to their victims, complete with bride price paid to the father, IS an aspect of biblical standards for marriage and sexual expression.

So is the young onset of marriageable age, making it much more likely that most people would be able to follow the prescription for not having premarital (or, shall I say, pre-betrothal,) sex. It wasn't a matter of stifling sexuality for years on end for the sake of spiritual purity or moral fulfillment, as we seem to interpret it now, and it wasn't a matter of rules for rules' sake-- it was a matter of maintaining property values in a world that considered female virginity prime real estate. LOL.

Morality is a function of a cultural background and the ways we come up with to minimize the friction of dealing with possible conflicts. The Bible doesn't contain intellectual property laws or ways to resolve copyright disputes, simply because the culture of the time didn't demand that those issues be addressed.

I can't see how the one can be sensibly divorced from the other aspect. Not without taking it so far out of context as to be almost meaningless.
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#81 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 10:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Houdini
Honestly, you could have waited until you were legally able to be together. You are obviously not with this man today, so I that speaks volumes as to whether the relationship was meant to work or not.
So by the same token the many of us, or would that be most of us, here who had sex without being married and are still with that person validates having sex without being married? It speaks volumes then?
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#82 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 10:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes

Hell, my husband is 12 years older than I am. Wonder how THAT woulda gone over when I was sixteen or seventeen. We joke about it sometimes

But I've not changed so much since then... what about that relationship would have been so unsavory and dreadful then, that is so perfectly acceptable now?

50 years ago, nobody would have breathed a word about a 16 year old woman marrying a 28 year old. Now, you can go to jail for that sort of thing. Food for thought, anyway.
ITA! My father just went to a high school reunion. He and his friends were talking about what people were doing these days, and a great number of teachers had married students. No big deal 50 years ago, prison time today.
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#83 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 11:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Houdini
I never said there were no other aspects of the cultural standards of Biblical times that are not applicable today. This is the one aspect that is the topic of the thread. Any other aspects, unless they apply to the topic, are irrelevant to this thread. You are assuming this is the only aspect I carry with me in my daily life.
so some aspects of the cultural standards of the bible are not applicable today, and some are.

So does everyone get to decide for themselves which are and aren't relevant or do you believe that you get to decide for everyone else? Or just for your kids?

Just trying to clarify.

By the way, my parents believe the same thing you do and my DH and lived together FOR YEARS before we got married. (And then it was just because I wanted to be a SAHM and by getting married I could be on his health insurrance). In spite of the fact that we are very happy together, I think marriage is a fairly bogus idea.

You can tell your kids whatever you want to, but ultimately they have free choice. This isn't something that you get to decide for them. Really.

but everything has pros and cons  shrug.gif

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#84 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 11:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Kerry
ITA! My father just went to a high school reunion. He and his friends were talking about what people were doing these days, and a great number of teachers had married students. No big deal 50 years ago, prison time today.
Isn't it funny how times change? It's not impossible that my husband could have been one of my high-school band directors, if things had just gone a little differently in our two lives. As it was, we didn't happen to meet till I was eighteen, and didn't marry till a few years after that.

I don't know whether that's a good thing or not, honestly. Maybe it's just a "how it is" thing.

And my great-grandma was the local schoolmistress-- eight years older than my great-granddad.... he always liked to recall how he fell in love with her at the end of her paddle on a particularly trying day.

Um, OK, granddad.
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#85 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 11:10 PM
 
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I don't think the fact that you didn't end up with your teen love speaks volumes about the relationship. I can totally see your anger at the situation. Realtionships are hard enough, but when you are isolated and don't have family support nearly impossible, as a teen I would say completely impossible!

This is reminding me of a relationship I had that was doomed to fail without support.
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#86 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 11:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
but the two "irrelevent" examples mentioned here DO pertain to the "biblical" standards regarding marriage and sex...
The example of rape doesn't apply because the cultural standards of today have changed in a way that it is not culturally acceptable to obtain a wife in this manner. Even if I followed this Biblical standard, I wouldn't be able to practice it b/c it is against the law. Encouraging my children to remain a virgin until marriage is not against the law and is still a culturally acceptable option which happens to come from the Bible as well.

As far as marriage to a teenager.....again even if I agreed and followed the Biblical standard on this it is no longer the cultural norm as it was in Biblical times. It is now illegal for certain age groups to get married. It is not illegal to encourage my children to remain virgins until marriage and it still a culturally acceptable option which happens to come from the Bible as well.

Rebecca wife of Megan...moms to six crazy kiddos! Seth (15), Madison (13), Zachary (12), Trevor (12), Alex (10), and Nicholas (9)
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#87 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 11:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Roar
So by the same token the many of us, or would that be most of us, here who had sex without being married and are still with that person validates having sex without being married? It speaks volumes then?
It speaks volumes to you that you are commited to that person in your life. I don't believe it validates having sex without being married. The big difference is the aversion to being married. Maybe you (general you) don't see the point of marriage, maybe you (general you) don't what the government sanctioning marriage. I have no idea why you felt it was right for you.

I do not feel it is right to be in a sexual relationship with a person without being married. My personal belief system which I will share with my children just as you (general) will share your personal beliefs to your children.

I don't see the point of trying to prove one way wrong and the other right. Everyone follows their own beliefs. To each his own.

Rebecca wife of Megan...moms to six crazy kiddos! Seth (15), Madison (13), Zachary (12), Trevor (12), Alex (10), and Nicholas (9)
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#88 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 11:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda on the move
so some aspects of the cultural standards of the bible are not applicable today, and some are.
Some of the aspects of the cultural standards of the bible are not applicable today because some of them are now illegal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda on the move
So does everyone get to decide for themselves which are and aren't relevant or do you believe that you get to decide for everyone else? Or just for your kids?
All Christians decide what aspects of the bible take precedence in their lives. Some follow the word to the letter, some don't. I don't recall saying I get to decide for everyone else. As far as my kids, I have already said I will encourage them to wait for marriage. I have also already said that in the end it will be children's decision and I will support them in whatever decision they choose for themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda on the move
Just trying to clarify.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda on the move
By the way, my parents believe the same thing you do and my DH and lived together FOR YEARS before we got married. (And then it was just because I wanted to be a SAHM and by getting married I could be on his health insurrance). In spite of the fact that we are very happy together, I think marriage is a fairly bogus idea.
This goes right along with the to each his own theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda on the move
You can tell your kids whatever you want to, but ultimately they have free choice. This isn't something that you get to decide for them. Really.
I agree. I have said that one this thread already.

Rebecca wife of Megan...moms to six crazy kiddos! Seth (15), Madison (13), Zachary (12), Trevor (12), Alex (10), and Nicholas (9)
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#89 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 11:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Houdini
As far as marriage to a teenager.....again even if I agreed and followed the Biblical standard on this it is no longer the cultural norm as it was in Biblical times. It is now illegal for certain age groups to get married. It is not illegal to encourage my children to remain virgins until marriage and it still a culturally acceptable option which happens to come from the Bible as well.
I just don't see why you're refusing to acknowlege that we've actually narrowed people's freedoms in a lot of ways, and you don't seem to see or care that this narrowing of the options has a tendency to make them seek sexual satisfaction in other ways.

It's like you seem to think that our current "permissiveness" about premarital sex was invented out of thin air, and you're not willing to see or acknowlege the previous cultural patterns that led to the prevalence of the practice in the first place... chief among them being the need for many years of higher education to obtain a living wage and the concurrent de-legitimizing of teenage romances and marriage.

You just keep repeating, "well, it's possible." Well, yes it is. So is standing on my head for a week straight. What's being addressed here is whether it's GOOD or not. Or useful. Or moral. Or at all, in any way, helpful to people as a society.

Our ideas about "biblical standards" seem to be a lot stricter regarding sexual morality than they were originally intended to read. It seems to be OK to you for our culture to restrict the compass of sexual morality, but you're unwilling to allow it to ever expand. It's like the limits on loving sexual relationship possibilities get narrower and narrower with no new outlets ever being created or acknowleged as legit.

And I think that's sad and unnecessarily problematic for teens, and young adults, too.
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#90 of 158 Old 07-23-2006, 11:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerry
I don't think the fact that you didn't end up with your teen love speaks volumes about the relationship. I can totally see your anger at the situation. Realtionships are hard enough, but when you are isolated and don't have family support nearly impossible, as a teen I would say completely impossible!

This is reminding me of a relationship I had that was doomed to fail without support.
Yeah, it's kind of sucky, huh? I still think about the guy from time to time-- wonder where he is and hope he's okay without me, YK?

He was always a softhearted sweetie in a mean world.
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