forced bra wearing?-updates pg. 5 and 7 - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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Old 09-12-2006, 01:15 AM
 
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I am truly speechless at this attitude at ALL, but here? Wow. Just wow. I don't want my daughters to EVER feel that they need to dress in any sort of way because of what may or may not excite some guys. Good god. What century is this? Maybe we shouldn't let them wear shorts or skirts above the ankle either. Oh and some boys are turned on by ankles or wrists so socks and long sleeves. Come ON people. This is about personal rights.

Do you want a cop to pull you over and say you're not appropriately dressed because you don't have a bra on?

If I had DARED to write a letter like that while teaching in public schools I would have been on every news station and would not have had a job by the end of the week.

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Old 09-12-2006, 01:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mamaofthree

And as someone who knows some 11 year old boys, not many (if any at all) are interested in boobs or girls.

H
interesting, as i taught about 45 11-12 year old boys last year and most were into girls and boobs, and yes, some of them were having sex.
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Old 09-12-2006, 01:27 AM
 
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I totally agree, I just don't think that wearing a bra or t-shirt equals being ashamed at all. It is all in the presentation

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Originally Posted by mamaofthree
RIGHT ON!

Making young girls ashamed of their bodies, I think only encourages the gropping and bra snapping. They look like targets. Being all bent over and slumped, hiding within themselves. Putting on fabic body armor to prevent boys from looking and maybe even thinking about them later, is just plain silly. And as someone who knows some 11 year old boys, not many (if any at all) are interested in boobs or girls.
I had a dear friend who was "huge" in 5th grade, but she was proud and stood tall, and had few if any comments made to her, even at 10-11 years old.
If we teach our dd's to be proud of their bodies (no matter how much or how little breast they have), teach them that they are not objects to be groped (but not to teach them to hide themselves), and on top of all of that teach boys to be respectful of female bodies (and their own bodies for that matter) then maybe this wouldn't even be a topic.

H
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Old 09-12-2006, 01:29 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mommyto3girls
I totally agree, I just don't think that wearing a bra or t-shirt equals being ashamed at all. It is all in the presentation
Oh I agree. Wearing a bra doesn't amount to being ashamed of one's body. Wearing a bra because one fears that some boy might see the outline of a nipple certainly smacks of shame.
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Old 09-12-2006, 01:37 AM
 
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Is this going to be some sort of pissing contest on who knows how many messed up 11 year old boys? I am sorry you know 45 11 year old boys who are not only into girls, and boobs but also having sex. That just shows me a really messed up environment.
And forcing gilrs to dress to prevent these messed up boys from groping them isn't the answer. Getting those kids help is. Teaching them right touch from wrong touch. And getting our girls to know what is right touch and wrong touch is also a #1 factor. Not slapping a bra on every developing girl to shame her, and "protect" her. Because if you have 11 year old kids having sex, no bra in the world will help that. EDUCATION WILL. If it isn't happening at home then it should be happening in the school... someone has to help those kids, or you just a a circle of violence against women. That isn't only condoned in the home, but in the school... when nothing is done.

H

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Old 09-12-2006, 01:42 AM
 
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MsHelena: Exactly. It isn't the bra, it is the REASON behind the bra. Not because the girl wants to wear one, is more comfortable with one, but to "protect" her from rouge male eyes, to shame her into wearing one, to put the blame on the girl because uneducated men/boys oogle and grope... like she some how "asked for it" because she chose not to wear a bra. How is that even OK with anyone?

H

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Old 09-12-2006, 02:01 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mamaofthree
Is this going to be some sort of pissing contest on who knows how many messed up 11 year old boys? I am sorry you know 45 11 year old boys who are not only into girls, and boobs but also having sex. That just shows me a really messed up environment.
And forcing gilrs to dress to prevent these messed up boys from groping them isn't the answer. Getting those kids help is. Teaching them right touch from wrong touch. And getting our girls to know what is right touch and wrong touch is also a #1 factor. Not slapping a bra on every developing girl to shame her, and "protect" her. Because if you have 11 year old kids having sex, no bra in the world will help that. EDUCATION WILL. If it isn't happening at home then it should be happening in the school... someone has to help those kids, or you just a a circle of violence against women. That isn't only condoned in the home, but in the school... when nothing is done.

H
And no, of course it isn't a pissing contest, you said you didn't know any 11 year old boys that were into boobs, I am just pointing out different environments to you. NOt everyone lives in a place where 11 year old boys are still just boys unfortunately,

Of course it needs to be taught in school and we try, but education at school does no good when there is not reinforcement in the home and in the neighborhood. I am not talking about your girls here I am talking about other kids and the lives they lead
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Old 09-12-2006, 02:06 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BelgianSheepDog
It's all about choosing the right tool:

1. Bras are the right tool for shaping breasts, lifting them, and making them seem symmetrical.

2. Kicks to the groin and jabs to the eyeballs are the appropriate tools for dealing with boys or men who sexually assault girls or women.

Wearing a bra won't help ward off sexual assault any more than kicking a dude in the groin will give you perky, symmetrical boobs.
: You rock, Mama!
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Old 09-12-2006, 02:11 AM
 
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Oh, and those of you who have seen me on the lactavism boards know that I have nothing against boobs and boobs in public. But exposing boobs, yes even the defined outline on the areola, in school just isn't the place for it.
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Old 09-12-2006, 02:29 AM
 
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I'm a large girl with large breasts, so I always wear a bra when I leave the house. I also used to work for a large hotel chain that has stated in the employee handbook that proper undergarments must be worn at all times. I actually saw women sent home for lack of proper foundation.

Is it possible that the teacher wrote this note on the basis that she needed a bra for gym class? My sister, who always jokes that she is so flat that she is concave, never goes running/jogging without a bra. To her it is just more comfortable that way. (Just an idea....)
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Old 09-12-2006, 02:59 AM
 
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Burn that sucker! Yeeeeee-haw!

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Old 09-12-2006, 03:06 AM
 
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I must admit, I'm never admiring of the perverse just to be perverse, cut my own nose off to spite my face school of parenting.

How hard is it, rather than be offended, to call the teacher and inquire as to the basis for the note? If its ridiculous, you can dismiss it -- however, if your daughter is becoming the subject of unwanted attention or the fact that she appears less modest/older than most 11 yos because of the lack of a bra is impacting her in a negative way, why not listen to the teacher's (who sees her for some 8 hours a day during the week and sees how she interacts with her peers) concerns, and then lay out what is going on to your daughter so she can make an informed choice. I wouldn't sit on my child and forcibily apply deoderant if they don't want to wear it, but for damn sure I'd make clear to them the consequences if they don't (they stink and no one wants to be around them).
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Old 09-12-2006, 03:25 AM
 
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Nankey-

What are you going to do?
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Old 09-12-2006, 03:44 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bczmama
I must admit, I'm never admiring of the perverse just to be perverse, cut my own nose off to spite my face school of parenting.

How hard is it, rather than be offended, to call the teacher and inquire as to the basis for the note? If its ridiculous, you can dismiss it -- however, if your daughter is becoming the subject of unwanted attention or the fact that she appears less modest/older than most 11 yos because of the lack of a bra is impacting her in a negative way, why not listen to the teacher's (who sees her for some 8 hours a day during the week and sees how she interacts with her peers) concerns, and then lay out what is going on to your daughter so she can make an informed choice. I wouldn't sit on my child and forcibily apply deoderant if they don't want to wear it, but for damn sure I'd make clear to them the consequences if they don't (they stink and no one wants to be around them).
Excuse me?
Teaching our girls to be proud of their bodies and to dress how they choose is "perverse just to be perverse" ?????

My mom still talks about how my G'ma used to pretend to hug her, just to rub her back and check for bra straps (late 60s). She hated it. And it only encouraged her to change later.

AS far as what boys notice, if they're at a point to notice breasts, you can be damn sure they notice bras. I remember LOTS of talk from middle school boys about whose bra was showing, bra strap snapping, etc. And if they couldn't tell? THen they made comments about the tightness or bagginess of jeans, or stared at all the girls' crotches to check for the elusive "camel-toe."

That's on them, NOT on the girls.
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Old 09-12-2006, 03:59 AM
 
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Maybe I'm spoiled because I went to an all-girls school, but I was a very late bra-wearer, not from a lack of need, but because I was just uncomfortable.

I experimented once of twice when I was eleven and starting to really need one, felt like the straps showed too much, didn't like the way it felt like a harness all over my body, and felt too 'grown-up.'

I always got a really uncomfortable feeling in the back of my throat when I wore a bra or thought about it, like a little bit nauseated. Maybe I was just a seriously messed up kid, but it was a very anxious experience for me.

I eventually adjusted sloooowwwwly to sports bras, choosing at first ones more like short tops and eventually more bra-like ones over a period of several years.

Now I wear a night-time nursing bra all the time bc I still can't stand the super-supportive strappy harness like feel of a regualr nursing bra.

I just don't understand why something so intensely personal is up for scrutiny. Like I say, maybe I was just a really messed up kid, but for this to be a matter of public debate would've beyond freaked me out. Totally innappropriate for it to be about anyone but the young lady herself.

As for getting grabbed in the hallway, that just sickens me. Sounds like a great argument for single-sex education or homeschooling.
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Old 09-12-2006, 05:17 AM
 
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Did I step into a time warp? Is it the 1950's? What is with all the posts about women needing to change and hide to "protect" themslves? I would be LIVID if that was my daughters teacher. I don't care what size your breasts are, men and boys are responsible for their own actions, bra or no bra. WOW!

I don't force my daighter to wear a bra, and I don't even suggest it. Nor would I ever submit her to some "inspection" for fear a nipple might show. I don't even know what to say to this. The concept is so draconian to me.
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Old 09-12-2006, 05:18 AM
 
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I just don't understand why something so intensely personal is up for scrutiny. Like I say, maybe I was just a really messed up kid, but for this to be a matter of public debate would've beyond freaked me out. Totally innappropriate for it to be about anyone but the young lady herself.
ITA
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Old 09-12-2006, 05:43 AM
 
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Is there something wrong with the boys looking or noticing her changing body?

If she doesn't have a problem with it, then she should be free to wear whatever she wants within the dress code.

Besides, i know when i was in school, it was far more disruptive to wear a bra than not, because when the boys found out you wore a bra they'd have to go out of their way to snap it constantly!

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Old 09-12-2006, 07:25 AM
 
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How the hell do we teach girls at the age of eleven that their new breasts must be hidden, at all costs, from the roving eyes of uncontrollably masturbating sexstarved boys, and then expect them to proudly and confidently expose those breasts to feed their children five or ten or fifteen years later?

Isn't this whole irrational terror of the exposed nipple half the problem with getting women to breastfeed more than a minute in this country?

If the kiddo doesn't wanna wear a bra, it's nobody's business to make her. I don't care what shape or size they are, or whether her nipples are sticking out, or who may or may not be getting a hardon.

Holy crap.
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Old 09-12-2006, 10:20 AM
 
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"Teaching our girls to be proud of their bodies and to dress how they choose is "perverse just to be perverse"

No -- the OP's first reaction to the note, to do the opposite just BECAUSE its the opposite is being perverse just to be perverse. I am disturbed that that was her first reaction, rather than trying to figure out what is actually taking place at the school that created the reason for the note. Maybe its nothing, maybe the teacher is a 60 year old spinster who hates sex, but maybe the OP's daughter is actually having some kind of issue or trouble at school, and wouldn't it be nice to find out whether that is the case, rather than getting all offended (as some posters did) that the teacher wrote a note rather than called. I don't feel the immediate correct response here is anger -- rather it should be a request for more information from the teacher followed by anger if appropriate.

There are hippie or hippie wannabes on this site who think they're questioning authority -- but a lot of time what I see is dismissing authority just to show everyone how (supposedly) cool, unconventional or otherwise free-spirited they are or for hippie group cred, without thinking through the rationale for the request or rule and making a logical decision whether it makes good sense to abide by it.
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Old 09-12-2006, 11:44 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BelgianSheepDog
It's all about choosing the right tool:

1. Bras are the right tool for shaping breasts, lifting them, and making them seem symmetrical.

2. Kicks to the groin and jabs to the eyeballs are the appropriate tools for dealing with boys or men who sexually assault girls or women.

Wearing a bra won't help ward off sexual assault any more than kicking a dude in the groin will give you perky, symmetrical boobs.


Mommyto3girls... I really don't see how a white supremacist protest is relevant to this discussion at all. That said... there are racists everywhere. There are bad people everywhere. And especially if I lived somewhere where there were heavy gang activity I'd want my daughters to know how to protect themselves, so that when a guy grabs their boob they can defend themselves instead of standing there and being a victim. (I want my kids to know how to protect themselves regardless... but I wouldn't let living in a less than desireable neighborhood make victims out of me or them.) I wouldn't want her to feel she has to dress in a certain way because someone, someday, "might" try to touch her. I want my kids to feel safe in their own skin, no matter what that skin looks like.

StormBride... *applause!* For sharing your experience! I had people make fun of my boobs too when I started getting them, and mine weren't even big.
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Old 09-12-2006, 11:50 AM
 
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Hippies and hippie wannabes????
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Old 09-12-2006, 12:01 PM
 
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My DD1 is 12 and it is her choice to wear a bra eveyday. I to wear one,butI am a Double F the last time I was fitted (I have gotten bigger since). I can hear boys make comments on her while in a bra. A bra has nothing to do with it. Boys look at that age or any age after purberty hits!
If your DD is comfortable going "Free" then the school should stay out of it! Next it will be girls need to shave their pits and legs. Heaven for bid they have co-ed swim....They might tell them you shave other spots too.:
This is NOT what school should be about! I am tired of schools telling out children how to dress with other that a basic dress code. School is for learning teachers are for teaching, not for giving us or our children their opinions (unless asked).
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Old 09-12-2006, 12:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by aniT
I think it would really depend on what size your child is.

Say if she wears an A that is small and many adults that wear A's dont even wear bra's. But if the child wears a B or bigger, in my opionion she should be wearing a bra. On that note however, I don't think it is the schools business to tell you so. I mean a bra or undershirt? As long as her shirts are not see through what is an undershirt going to acomplish? :

You might try talking to the teacher to find out where she is coming from and go from there. Then if you still feel she has crossed the line, go from there.
I'm a 38d right now, and there are many days I don't wear a bra. I am so glad I am not in school....
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Old 09-12-2006, 12:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Holy moley, didn't know this would open such a can of worms! I appreciate all the points of view! I have NOT talked with the teacher yet (That will be today) and my daughter does not know about the note. As for teasing at school, no, I don't think so. DD is one who would tell me if she were being harassed or if someone had said anything. She hasn't had PE since last week, so I don't think that's the issue. I DO look to see if anything is noticeable , but with the things she wears I have never seen a nipple or areole at all. I "made' her pick either a bra or undershirt today to wear until I could get this all straightened out. She sighed, rolled her eyes, but put one on. (I couldn't see a difference) Personally, as for 'seeing" a nipple through clothing, I can't stop myself from thinking, 'so what??"

I'll keep you posted.
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Old 09-12-2006, 12:17 PM
 
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Sorry double post.
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Old 09-12-2006, 12:37 PM
 
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So many many great points- and many of you had me giggling too. But it was a sad laugh since I am aghast at the fact that anyone thinks that a child is responsible for another's thoughts.
Quote:
How the hell do we teach girls at the age of eleven that their new breasts must be hidden, at all costs, from the roving eyes of uncontrollably masturbating sexstarved boys, and then expect them to proudly and confidently expose those breasts to feed their children five or ten or fifteen years later?
Yeah that!!!
Quote:
There are hippie or hippie wannabes on this site who think they're questioning authority -- but a lot of time what I see is dismissing authority just to show everyone how (supposedly) cool, unconventional or otherwise free-spirited they are or for hippie group cred, without thinking through the rationale for the request or rule and making a logical decision whether it makes good sense to abide by it.
I'm a hippie and my dd is the hippie wanna be- yes I have taught her to question authority- and yes if she does not want to wear I bra I will never make her! I have thought about whether it makes sense to force a bra on an unwilling child- it does not especially since the reasoning is other people's reactions.

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Old 09-12-2006, 01:22 PM
 
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What can I say -- sometimes the "hippier than thou" and "who can most live like its the Dark Ages with a modem" contingent start to wear...

I'm not ashamed!! I hate tie-dye, the Grateful Dead and incense and I'm not afraid to say it! Give me refined sugar, Ann Taylor clothes and smooth legs any day!!

I gotta talk to the mods about getting once of those hippie smilies with an X through it to represent my "tribe" (oh god, how I hate that -- might as well just call it a clique) of one.
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Old 09-12-2006, 01:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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"To each, his own", bczmama. and I think this may be what this issue is truly about.
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Old 09-12-2006, 02:23 PM
 
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Somehow, the whole thing about nipples showing went right past me. umm...I wore a pretty heavy-duty bra, because that was what was comfortable for me. My nipples still showed (still do today, in fact) a lot of the time. The bras that most of the girls wore at middle school age (we didn't have middle school) were incredibly thin, wispy things...if you could see the nipple and areolae through their shirt, you could see it through their bra, too. So, all a bra did was lift them up a bit.

Okay - can't believe I'm still posting. I can't believe anybody thinks that a note from a teacher saying "make your daughter wear a bra" with no explanation is acceptable...I can't believe that anybody thinks that making our daughters "hide" their breasts because otherwise pubescent boys might think about them is acceptable...I can't believe anybody thinks that bras "hide" breasts in the first place...I can't believe anybody thinks there is any force on this earth that will stop pubescent boys from thinking about breasts... wow...just...wow...

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