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#91 of 112 Old 04-01-2007, 08:41 PM
 
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You either do not see the need for, or are unwilling to arrange counselling at the moment - no flames from me - you ARE the mother.

First off, I would remove the computer (which, yes, you did mention - I am merely seconding the fact I think it is a good idea). Both blow-ups in this thread seemed centerred around computer use.
Not only do I suggest it as a natural consequence to her behaviour, but some children cannot handle "screens" well - I need to look it up but I think excess screen use is associated with increased amounts of inappropriate behaviour .

Without question, she is angry and trying to get your attention over something. She has aimed her anger, twice, at things she know will really upset you. She did not aim her anger at the beloved computer or her stuff, after all.

Is it possible she has allergies or something medical that is upsetting her already sensitive balance? Do you think a visit to a naturopath or homeopath is in order - we gave my cranky nephew (not the same thing, I know!!) pulsatilla and he cheered right up. Naturopathy and Homeopathy do treat the whole person.

Is there anything she wants to take that will help her feel self-empowered, give her a break from the house, and re-direct her energy? I am thinking martial arts - but art, horseback riding, ect...whatever.....

Give her a beautiful jornal to write down her thoughts - journalling helps many people.

Hugs and more hugs....

Keep us posted!

Kathy
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#92 of 112 Old 04-02-2007, 03:27 AM
 
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excess screen use is associated with increased amounts of inappropriate behaviour .Kathy

I have never heard this before. If using the computer is what she most enjoys, why take it from her? Perhaps it is the focus of the power struggle, which is why it seems the computer has some sort of power. It really is not about the computer. It is about the prohibition and control over what this person wants to do with her time. I would be enraged as well, if someone were to take something of value away from me; whether I am a child, adolescent or adult. Where is the respect for her in this scenario of withholding computer priveleges? I don't get how the computer carries so much weight.
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#93 of 112 Old 04-02-2007, 10:58 AM
 
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I have been following this with interest, but hadn't thought of anything I could really contribute.

The comments above about not necessarily needing to identify the source of the anger are right on point, though. You may want to look for a counsellor with a "cognitive" perspective - their focus as I understand it is more on identifying and dealing with whatever one's triggers are in the moment, learning to react differently to triggers, and shifting behaviors: not so key to dig up and re-hash this or that thing in the past, more about changing patterns in the present. That might appeal to both you and your daughter.
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#94 of 112 Old 04-03-2007, 03:15 AM
 
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I have never heard this before. If using the computer is what she most enjoys, why take it from her? Perhaps it is the focus of the power struggle, which is why it seems the computer has some sort of power. It really is not about the computer. It is about the prohibition and control over what this person wants to do with her time. I would be enraged as well, if someone were to take something of value away from me; whether I am a child, adolescent or adult. Where is the respect for her in this scenario of withholding computer priveleges? I don't get how the computer carries so much weight.
Maybe what she is referring to is the fact that screen time is time not spent being active and engaged directly with other humans. In moderation it's fine, but if excessive it can be harmful. I know that in ADD literature it is advised to cut down on screen time and increase social engagement as a way to mitigate the downsides of ADD.

But Synthea hasn't said that her dd uses the computer excessively, so that may not apply. More to the point is the idea of using the computer to motivate a child who is apparently not intrinsically motivated to change her behavior. Of course intrinsic motivation is best and should be encouraged with lots of bonding and loving conversations about feelings and values etc. But I believe that some kids just don't have the intrinsic motivation to deal certain issues, in which case extrinsic motivaton needs to be applied, such as taking away privileges. It seems that sometimes people see this issue only in the extremes and not the shades of grey in between. Like if one takes away a privilege to motivate their child to develop a certain habit/skill, that the child will *forever* only do it when extrinsically motivated (i.e. will never develop an instrinsic motivation) and will *forever* fear their parents (as though one act of removing a privilege will erase all of the bonding and love that the parents and child have created). That doesn't make sense to me at all.

Synthea's dd may just need a parental push to get her over this hurdle, either because she doesn't believe she really can control her temper or because she doesn't have the motivation to. Once she has passed the hurdle and seen how much smoother and happier life is without the drama of meltdowns, the hope is that this experience will become the intrinsic motivation for her to continue controlling her temper in the future.
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#95 of 112 Old 04-03-2007, 05:20 AM
 
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I have never heard this before. If using the computer is what she most enjoys, why take it from her? Perhaps it is the focus of the power struggle, which is why it seems the computer has some sort of power. It really is not about the computer. It is about the prohibition and control over what this person wants to do with her time. I would be enraged as well, if someone were to take something of value away from me; whether I am a child, adolescent or adult. Where is the respect for her in this scenario of withholding computer priveleges? I don't get how the computer carries so much weight.

Computer "priveleges" is the key word here. If she is not able to have computer time without getting angry when that is over then I would have to worry whether the computer is messing up her head. My friends boy would get so revved playing online that the day would be hell for her. She restricted him and he is fine. Also what is she doing on the computer that makes her furious to have to finish?
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#96 of 112 Old 04-03-2007, 05:21 AM
 
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"But I believe that some kids just don't have the intrinsic motivation to deal certain issues, in which case extrinsic motivaton needs to be applied, such as taking away privileges. It seems that sometimes people see this issue only in the extremes and not the shades of grey in between. Like if one takes away a privilege to motivate their child to develop a certain habit/skill, that the child will *forever* only do it when extrinsically motivated (i.e. will never develop an instrinsic motivation) and will *forever* fear their parents (as though one act of removing a privilege will erase all of the bonding and love that the parents and child have created). That doesn't make sense to me at all." - THAO

HEAR HEAR!
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#97 of 112 Old 04-05-2007, 02:28 AM
 
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(please don't offer any advice unless you read and understand the whole post. I use sarcasm a lot and I'm very upset right now)

Added: please read through all my posts if you are giving advice, some responses are making is kinda obvious that didn't happen.

...is what I really want to do, just to stop myself from strangling DD. She's got this thing for kicking holes in walls. We had fixed all the holes in our old house and talked to her, and she's been good for a couple months. Today, she got sent to her room, politely because DH and I were arguing (so she wouldn't be right there and it was a nice, "honey, can you go read in your room for a bit", kind of thing), but she wanted to play on the computer right then, so she was mad. There is now a 3 FOOT by 1 FOOT hole in her bedroom wall. I've HAD IT. She doesn't need counseling, she doesn't need a talking to. I'm to the point I think she needs a good butt kicking, but that wouldn't do any good either! I can't think of anything to get her to stop, so I punished her - no more WoW (world of warcraft) ever - period. What good will it do? Nothing of course! Because she doesn't care! ARRRGHHHHH. How do you get a child to care when they don't. The only thing that makes her do good is bribes - allowance, treats, etc. She doesn't care about her brothers, or DH or I, she doesn't care if we need her to help or just want her around (like to go on a walk or watch a movie, even if she gets to run the show), unless she's getting something out of it. She only spontaniously gives a hug if she wants something, she only picks up her room to get out of trouble, or get computer time, she only hugs her brothers if I'm watching and she thinks she'll get "points". I'm just sick of it. We haven't raised her this way. I know too many kids who are like this and I've deliberately tried to raise her not to be so selfish and uncaring, but I failed Its all her, her, her. What can I do, besides counseling, because we don't have the money or insurance anyway for it, even if I was willing to try.

Please read the disclaimer at the beginning of the post before you reply, if you do. And please understand that I posted such a disclaimer because I way too often see posts where it is obvious that the poster did not read the whole original post, not because I'm being a bitch.
I would like to know if anything has worked. My dd doesnt' care about anything. she throws trash, books, clothes, whatever on the floor, doesn't take care of anything, cd players get stepped on, cds get scratched and broken, all of her clothes have stains, and I have finally washed my hands of her room. From now on I just shut the door, because I shouldn't have to keep pointing out each individual piece of trash, clothing or paper on her floor.

She isn't openly hostile, but rather she tells us what we want to hear then goes right on doing what she was doing before. She is sullen, argumentative, and dishonest. She doesn't throw things or break things in anger, but there is this overall feeling that she thinks she should be in charge and we all work for her.

I'm at my wit's end. One kid does well in school and rarely has trouble understanding what is expected of him. The other does poorly despite extra attention and extra classes, and can't seem to grasp the simplest of ideas.
I keep reading on ADD, but she's not hyper at all.

I am intrigued by your question about just not caring, because that is the one I'm struggling with.

Please tell me if you've made any progress.

8(

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#98 of 112 Old 04-05-2007, 02:54 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Cutting the computer time down to 2-30 minute sessions a day has helped immensely. Threating to hang her in the garage by the foot she kicks the wall with helped one time too She knew I was kidding and we both laughed and it dissolved the anger so she could talk....sometimes things like that work, sometimes not. Nothing bad since she threw the chair. I've been constantly talked to her about treating people and things how she wants to be treated ("how'd you like it if the wall kicked back?") and that gets mostly rolled eyes but I think it makes her think too. She destroys her room too, her stuff, and she's thrown out at least half of what was left from her last huge wing ding (it's been a while)....she doens't get to keep or replace what she destroys. I can't buy her new clothes, and she sure can't afford it, so if she destroys her clothes, she's going to eventually be going around naked.

Not much help I think, if I think of anything else I'll post again. I hope you and your teen can work things out.

Amy ~ Web Designing Single Mom to 4: DD14, DS12, DS5, DS3
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#99 of 112 Old 04-05-2007, 03:01 PM
 
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if only she was a teen! She's 9, but early puberty runs in her family and she acts like a 13 year old without the minor leaps in maturity or intellect.

I think it's harder for me to deal with because she is so much a little girl, but she's got hormonal issues and her emotions and physical self do not match her mental capacity.

it's good to know something is working with your teen. I think the most important thing I have to do is try not to get mad, stay calm and reasonable. Easier said than done, though.
8)

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#100 of 112 Old 04-05-2007, 05:45 PM
 
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I think it sounds like huge changes have happened.
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#101 of 112 Old 04-06-2007, 11:54 AM
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After tonight, I'm definitely getting her into SOMETHING. In the time it took to blink, she went from fine to stomping, yelling and throwing a chair into my (the landlord's brand new) oven, almost breaking the glass. This one's entirely on her, I gave her a 30 minute, a 15 minute, and a 5 minute heads up that computer time was about over, then I told her to finish up that thing she was doing right then (read: she had time, and knew she did, to finish up, save her program and close any other windows she had going) and get off, get a snack, and get some reading done. All said just pleasantly, like 2 hours ago, I told her it was time to unload the dishwasher and she did it just fine. She just completely freaked out. I AM GOING NUTS WITH THIS GIRL. ARGGHHH! Gotta find something that'll help her/us, I just want to strangle her (you know, like Homer does to Bart...) Sigh. And we've been working so hard since I last posted. It seems to be getting worse.




Get her into counseling.

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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#102 of 112 Old 04-06-2007, 11:55 AM
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I think we'll limit the computer to (home)school work only. Don't worry, I won't strangle her, but I sure wanted to.
Would she be happier in a public school?

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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#103 of 112 Old 04-06-2007, 11:56 AM
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Synthea, you seem to have decided that 1) because your daughter was only three when she witnessed the abuse and 2) because she's already been to counseling, the issue is closed and she's left it behind.

I think that's a very shortsighted way of looking at it.

Anger and trauma can re-emerge at many stages of life.

It's clear from your daughter's behavior that *something* is going on with her, and I honestly don't think it's for you to decide that it couldn't possibly be the abuse she witnessed as a young child. Maybe you are right and that's not it, but I think it bears some investigating.

I could very easily say that things that happened to my daughter as a young child no longer affect her, but her behavior says otherwise.


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#104 of 112 Old 04-06-2007, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
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It's way too early to tell, I'll know in a month or 2, but the computer (and specifically WoW) seems to be the problem. She's been more active with her schooling, and "real life" and she's happier, just since the chair throwing. I'm still looking for options (so far, there's nothing we can afford - $50-100/hour until DH's insurance kicks in they're unwilling to take payments, one office told me to get a credit card even , but I'm starting to think the computer, and WoW, is something she just can't handle. Don't ask me why, but I imagine she gets so wrapped up in the alternate reality that when real life comes crashing in, even with warnings, she can't handle it. Thinking about it, DH is the same way. He's a grumpy PITA if I pull him away from WoW without "proper" warning. I didn't think about it before, because he's not destructive. And he recognizes he's being a jerk so it only lasts a minute.

I think things are going to just keep improving

Amy ~ Web Designing Single Mom to 4: DD14, DS12, DS5, DS3
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#105 of 112 Old 04-06-2007, 04:39 PM
 
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Don't ask me why, but I imagine she gets so wrapped up in the alternate reality that when real life comes crashing in, even with warnings, she can't handle it.
You need to quit making excuses for her behaviour and deal with this as a discipline issue. I witnessed my mother being knocked around by my father and I've yet to break anything in anger.
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#106 of 112 Old 04-07-2007, 01:53 AM
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You need to quit making excuses for her behaviour and deal with this as a discipline issue.
The girl needs counseling, not necessarily discipline.



Are there other times she blows up, that aren't computer related?

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#107 of 112 Old 04-07-2007, 02:19 AM - Thread Starter
 
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The girl needs counseling, not necessarily discipline.

Are there other times she blows up, that aren't computer related?
She's been disciplined. Lost allowance (paying for the damage) and lost computer time, for a few days after the damage was done, and continuous, from hours and hours a day to an hour or less each day. I'd probably rather not know how you think I need to discipline her bbm.

I'm hard pressed to remember an explosion that does not have the computer involved. I can recall, especially during PMS and during her periods, some stomping and maybe a slammed door, but never any damage done. Hmm.

Amy ~ Web Designing Single Mom to 4: DD14, DS12, DS5, DS3
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#108 of 112 Old 04-07-2007, 09:27 AM
 
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I'm hard pressed to remember an explosion that does not have the computer involved.
If this is the case, then NO computer if she can't be reasonable about it. My oldest broke our rules we have set for computer use and I took it away for a month. Computer is a priviledge not a necessity.
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#109 of 112 Old 04-07-2007, 04:45 PM
 
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I've been following your thread and didn't think I had anything to say but just today I was talking to my ds2 about why I want him to turn off the speakers when he is on a WoW type game online. The music makes me feel down and anxious after only about 5 minutes.

I heard a programme on the radio the other day talking about the rhythm and tone of gansta rap and the reasoing from a musical perspective that it is this, not the lyrics which can make the listener feel agressive. I definitely feel differently depending on what I am hearing and I see how this affects my children too.

If we need a lift and a good laugh in this house we watch these http://www.devilducky.com/media/7452/ or

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dHaOwC_4No
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#110 of 112 Old 04-07-2007, 09:33 PM
 
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This is just a thought I thought I would throw out. I had to get rid of tv because ds would become agressive after watching it. That was the only time. It could be the nicest show but he would become agressive. My friend has done some reading on how tv, computer, video games, ect. affect brainwaves. Basically, you have all this energy going in with no output and then POOF. They need to get rid of it somehow! I would defineately avoid computer.

Hoping it all works out well for you, mama.

Teri
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#111 of 112 Old 04-09-2007, 03:07 AM
 
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Just to preface, I did read all our your original posts and most of the response, but not all!

We have been experiencing all most all of what you have described with our ds (13). Here is what we have done...

Years of counselling, which helps some, but to be honest, only ever seems to be a short term fix. I think we are finally making some headway. His bio mother left him and dh when he was about 2 yrs old. According to several people, this has caused him to be "stuck" at that age emotionally. It is a form of trauma. Maybe the situation with your dd at age 3?

We were told to look at him as though he were a 2 yr old instead of 13... and wow! He acts just like our 2 yr old!

So, the answer was how do we get him past it. We have been doing EMDR (you can google it) during counselling sessions. It simulates REM sleep and helps people to process thru trauma more quickly.

We also started him on Fish oil and b vitamins, plus cut out dairy and gluten completely. It has helped alot with his impulse control and his associated stomach issues.

Lastly, and in my opinion, the most drastic, we took him to a homeopath. Her assessment of him was almost exactly the same as our counsellors... no impulse control, emotionally thinks like a 2 yr old, egocentric, prone to violence, attention defficit, and possible depression accompanied by mania.
She gave him a remedy and within two-three days he was a different kid. So far it has been a month and we have gone from 1-2 outbursts like you describe a DAY to ONE the entire month. FWIW, we have been dealing with these for YEARS. I can not tell you how great it is.

So, please do not think it is you, or your home, or anything else. We were told by people that we needed more structure, less structure, to put him in public school, get him in sports, take away the computer and TV (which we did do, but it didn't solve the problem~ It's still not back, but only because it is so much nicer ) medicate him, you name it. We went with what we felt was best for our son and our family. All the suggestions in the world don't make any difference if it isn't what you feel is best for her.

Good luck, and I feel your pain! Hang in there. We aren't through it yet, but there a light starting to peek thru.
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#112 of 112 Old 04-09-2007, 10:09 AM
 
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I keep reading on ADD, but she's not hyper at all.
(
OT, just a quick note to say that ADD in girls can often (mostly?) manifest as a daydreamer who is lost in their own world and has trouble relating to the outside world. I still struggle with this, but as I grew up I figured out ways to cope. I wouldn't automatically dismiss ADD for your daughter without reading about ADD specific to girls.

Back on topic of OP, I have no advice, but wanted to tell you that I had rage issues when I was an early teen. I put a few holes in walls and I broke some chairs. I would get so angry but have no clue how to express that anger. My mom also didn't know how to express her anger and her way of coping was to try to walk away from the situation which only infuriated me further because I felt I was being abandoned. In the situation I wanted to stop but couldn't, but once I broke something or screamed the anger was shocked out of me. The reason I'm sharing this is because my mom raised my brother and I the exact same way. He did not have this problem, only I did. I wonder if a change to my diet and if vits and herbs could have helped me, but since that wasn't in my mom's realm of knowledge I'll never know. That is why I say I don't have advice...we just rode it out. I do know that counseling probably would have helped because I became desperate for counseling after high school, but my mom didn't understand its importance and I couldn't pay for it on my own. When I finally got counseling I started to realize how nasty I was to myself in my internal dialogue, and how I would take things to heart but never talk about them to my parents. So my parents thought all was basically well and I did too, and they could have been so helpful with dismissing the crazy teen thoughts that come up. But I internalized them all and my self-esteem outside of my family crashed more and more each year. Inside my family I could let it all out...unfortunately that also included all the anger that couldn't be let out anywhere else, because I didn't know how to express it without feeling like I was laid completely open...vulnerable. The point is I wish you weren't saying things like you have failed. Hopefully the two of you will figure out a way to help her get through this time, but you haven't failed. Failing would be giving up on her and saying she has it good and should be happy so I give up. You are searching for things that will help her learn to express herself and control herself...that isn't giving up. And no matter how terrified I was about how out of control I felt, I would never, ever admit that to my parents...she may very well be terrified of herself in those moments and never give a sign of that or admit it...but it will be great if you can remember that. Knowing after it all calmed down that my mom still loved me was crucial, but I'm pretty sure I acted like I didn't care. When she would walk out of the room during an argument I truly felt like she would walk out the door and never come back and I don't have any abandonment situations in my childhood, there was absolutely no basis for those feelings, but they were real and they were intense feelings.

Hopefully this isn't too scattered, I really didn't have time to post this morning and have to run....sorry, if some of it doesn't make much sense!

I wanted to add that we were/are a very close family. We had lots of family time and did lots of stuff together and I also had my own space. My family was very attentive and supportive...yet, my mom was still the easiest and safest place for me to unload all my anger.

Mama to 3 year old DS and awaiting #2 in June
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