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#91 of 114 Old 05-01-2007, 03:38 PM
 
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I'm back here reading more and wondering how you go to the doctors for one thing and end up being invited to talk about drug use and consent (or otherwise) to a pelvic exam.
For the same reason that, when a woman visits a hospital for another reason, she gets routinely asked "Do you feel safe at home?" Because it may be the only time that she is able to answer honestly because she is by herself in a trusted environment.

I believe young people should also routinely be allowed to be alone with a health care provider so that they can discuss things that they may not be able to discuss in front of their parents - abuse by said parents, drug use, or sexual activity of which their parents would not approve.
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#92 of 114 Old 05-01-2007, 04:37 PM
 
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I believe young people should also routinely be allowed to be alone with a health care provider so that they can discuss things that they may not be able to discuss in front of their parents -
I have no problem with them being allowed to. I do have a problem with them being pressured or coerced.

-Angela
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#93 of 114 Old 05-01-2007, 04:54 PM
 
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They should not be forced to be alone with a doctor if they are not comfortable with it.

And at 18 I don't think I would even go to the doctor with my daughter, let alone try to force my way into a pelvic exam. There is a huge difference between protecting our young teens for needless prodedures, and uncomfortbleness with a doctor, and trying to control our adult children.
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#94 of 114 Old 05-01-2007, 08:53 PM
 
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For the same reason that, when a woman visits a hospital for another reason, she gets routinely asked "Do you feel safe at home?" Because it may be the only time that she is able to answer honestly because she is by herself in a trusted environment.
OK. We live in different worlds.
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#95 of 114 Old 05-01-2007, 09:16 PM
 
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That is the point I was trying to make about MY daughter, but apparently she NEEDS to learn to take control of her medical care by herself NOW. Apparently NOW is the time she needs to grow out if this can't wait until she is older. :
I would suggest reading about anxiety. It is not normal behavior for a child who is 13 to be unable to speak to people in public. While I understand the impulse as a caring parent to make everything easier for your child, with anxiety that can actually be doing the child a disservice because the more they stop doing the less they are able to do. The more you excuse them not engaging in normal behavior (speaking to shop clerk or the doctor) the more you tell them that there is something real to worry about and that you don't have trust or confidence in them.

I didn't get from anyone here that kids should be thrown off a bridge and told to swim. Rather, that learning to take control of your own medical care is a long learned process that should start when kids are young. If your kid is already into the teenage years and they are doing none of this (not even able to speak to the doctor) as a parent I would be concerned about it.
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#96 of 114 Old 05-01-2007, 09:18 PM
 
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OK. We live in different worlds.
They don't ask that in the UK? It's routine here, in Massachusetts at any rate.

It gives women in DV situations an opportunity to get help that she might not be able to bring herself to ask for otherwise.
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#97 of 114 Old 05-01-2007, 09:51 PM
 
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I didn't get from anyone here that kids should be thrown off a bridge and told to swim. Rather, that learning to take control of your own medical care is a long learned process that should start when kids are young. If your kid is already into the teenage years and they are doing none of this (not even able to speak to the doctor) as a parent I would be concerned about it.
Thanks for your opinion. I am not concerned in the least. My daughter hasn't even been to the doctor since she was 11 anyway. I don't believe in "routine" physicals. The last one she had was when she was 11 for GS camp. If she needs one for something else, I will again take her to our ND who is just as POed about the new recent vaccines as I am and I don't have to worry about her trying to push them or a pelvic exam on her.

If for some reason however my DD was to go to the ER, I WOULD NOT leave the room case I don't know/trust those doctors.

I see nothing wrong with her not wanting to talk to doctors. I myself wouldn't when I was her age, and if I was forced to answer questions I would lie.

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They don't ask that in the UK? It's routine here, in Massachusetts at any rate.

It gives women in DV situations an opportunity to get help that she might not be able to bring herself to ask for otherwise.
I have never been asked such questions either. Never! So it is NOT routine everywhere. Of course I haven't been to a hospital since DD3 was born three years ago. But nope.. they never asked me anything of that nature when DH was out of the room either.
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#98 of 114 Old 05-01-2007, 10:18 PM
 
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Increasingly I come to see how much of the "protective" nature of AP is anxious people's grasping for CONTROL. And I speak as the child of prototypical "AP" parents, not just as a member of MDC or AP circles in the real world.
I agree.

I'd like to suggest the book The Price of Privilege http://www.amazon.com/Price-Privileg...8068483&sr=8-2

While it is superficially talking about how social class comes into play parenting teenagers it has a lot of insight into how children are hurt when parents don't foster some independence. It isn't an all or nothing overnight thing but a gradual process and a process that some parents think they can protect their kids from...but that doesn't turn out very well.
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#99 of 114 Old 05-01-2007, 10:36 PM
 
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Thanks for your opinion. I am not concerned in the least. My daughter hasn't even been to the doctor since she was 11 anyway. I don't believe in "routine" physicals. The last one she had was when she was 11 for GS camp. If she needs one for something else, I will again take her to our ND who is just as POed about the new recent vaccines as I am and I don't have to worry about her trying to push them or a pelvic exam on her.
Ah, the assumptions there... We don't do routine physicals or vax either. I still believe though that our son should be able to function in society - to speak to other people, etc. I'd prefer the first time he practice these skills not be when he's sick or afraid. Independence is an ongoing process that takes steps every single day.
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#100 of 114 Old 05-02-2007, 12:20 AM
 
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Ah, the assumptions there... We don't do routine physicals or vax either. I still believe though that our son should be able to function in society - to speak to other people, etc. I'd prefer the first time he practice these skills not be when he's sick or afraid. Independence is an ongoing process that takes steps every single day.

Are you saying my daughter cannot function in society because she chooses not to speak to strangers?

And what assumptions?
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#101 of 114 Old 05-02-2007, 01:47 AM
 
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Increasingly I come to see how much of the "protective" nature of AP is anxious people's grasping for CONTROL. And I speak as the child of prototypical "AP" parents, not just as a member of MDC or AP circles in the real world.
I'm beginning to notice this as well. I was really taken aback on the cell phone thread, by the number of mothers who vehemently felt that having a cell phone was a requisite safety measure, like wearing a seat belt. I think we all probably struggle with this to a degree, this control issue, this anxiety about the safety of one's children; where to draw the line, when to let them deal with it, when to step in, balancing independence and safety.

Thanks for the book recommendation, roar.
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#102 of 114 Old 05-02-2007, 02:16 AM
 
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Where are the mods? This thread isn't even about the 12 year old boy, anymore. It's about everyone else's kids going to the doctor!
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#103 of 114 Old 05-02-2007, 02:32 AM
 
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This thread IS on topic. The topic is 12 year old physical and we are talking about procedures and how they make the children feel. I am not sure what the problem is.
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#104 of 114 Old 05-02-2007, 02:54 AM
 
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Roar, that book looks FASCINATING. Thank you for pointing me to it.
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#105 of 114 Old 05-02-2007, 10:04 AM
 
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Are you saying my daughter cannot function in society because she chooses not to speak to strangers?
Part of functioning in society is being able to make social contact with other people. If a teenager's anxiety is so out of control that they are "pissed off" if a shop clerk speaks to them or they can't speak to a doctor, then yes that is impaired functioning! As a parent I would be concerned about that rather than trying to come up with excuses or reasons why it is good she isn't able to interact in a normal social fashion.

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And what assumptions?
I hear an assumption that it doesn't matter if the child is unable to interact because you above getting routine physicals or vaxs. It would only be a concern if a parent hook line and sinker did everything a doctor said or bought into the belief system of mainstream medicine. What I'm telling you is that there are people who think critically about medicine, who don't get routine exams, who don't vax or whatever, who still believe their teenagers shouldn't be capable of normal social interaction.
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#106 of 114 Old 05-02-2007, 11:47 AM
 
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Part of functioning in society is being able to make social contact with other people. If a teenager's anxiety is so out of control that they are "pissed off" if a shop clerk speaks to them or they can't speak to a doctor, then yes that is impaired functioning! As a parent I would be concerned about that rather than trying to come up with excuses or reasons why it is good she isn't able to interact in a normal social fashion.
She can if she wants, she doesn't WANT to. And we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I don't agree with you. She does NOT have impaired functioning and I guess it's a good thing you aren't her mom since she apparently doesn't live up to YOUR standards.


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I hear an assumption that it doesn't matter if the child is unable to interact because you above getting routine physicals or vaxs. It would only be a concern if a parent hook line and sinker did everything a doctor said or bought into the belief system of mainstream medicine. What I'm telling you is that there are people who think critically about medicine, who don't get routine exams, who don't vax or whatever, who still believe their teenagers shouldn't be capable of normal social interaction.
Maybe you are making assumptions on what is "normal social interaction" between YOUNG teens and strangers. You have your standard, I have mine, obviously we don't agree and are not going to convince each other of our points. We are just going to have to leave it at that.
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#107 of 114 Old 05-02-2007, 01:36 PM
 
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Everybody is different I think. I have plenty of friends who don't expect their children to communicate with every person they meet, stranger or no, official capacity or no. I've always been a bit of a hermit and not terribly sociable, in fact I am happier on my own than with people in general.I get fed up with empty conversing just for the sake of it. I think there are very fixed ideas of what is 'normal' in this society, some people just need more space. I always tell my dc not to bother answering mundane, nosy or ignorant questions from any people and the majority of stuff they get is just that.My children have that choice to communicate with who they want not who their parents or anyone else expects. That choice extends to their bodies as well. I would disagree that a child who does not wish to communicate with various shop clerks, doctors etc has a problem, I would say they have a firm grasp of their own rights to interact how they see fit. I'm so glad all my friends are 'alternative'. I was made to talk to every last bed and breakfast guest my foster mother had in our house. It used to sicken me and even a few guests couldnt grasp why she felt this urge/need to have me communicate with total strangers all the time. Just to be polite, to conform etc etc.It made me even more reclusive.
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#108 of 114 Old 05-02-2007, 01:56 PM
 
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I always tell my dc not to bother answering mundane, nosy or ignorant questions from any people and the majority of stuff they get is just that.My children have that choice to communicate with who they want not who their parents or anyone else expects. That choice extends to their bodies as well. I would disagree that a child who does not wish to communicate with various shop clerks, doctors etc has a problem, I would say they have a firm grasp of their own rights to interact how they see fit. I'm so glad all my friends are 'alternative'.
Yes, I think there is a difference in world view there. I'm not aiming for my child to grow up to be a hermit.

I don't believe everyone should be chatty or should be an extrovert. I live with two introverts who don't particularly enjoy meeting new people and that's fine. It isn't fine though for people to be incapable of normal polite human interaction or be incapable of getting their needs met (talking to the doctor, etc.) because they view all people as "strangers" who are out to get them. That doesn't mean people are obligated to answer overly personal or intrusive questions. It does mean though that you are able to navigate in the world without seeing every conversation as an attack on you. I'm sorry that you were forced to chit chat against your will, but it seems pretty sour to then decide every little old lady at the grocery store who says "nice weather we are having" is mundane and isn't worth a polite response.
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#109 of 114 Old 05-02-2007, 02:01 PM
 
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Maybe you are making assumptions on what is "normal social interaction" between YOUNG teens and strangers. You have your standard, I have mine, obviously we don't agree and are not going to convince each other of our points. We are just going to have to leave it at that.
So, exactly what interaction do you consider normal for a teenager? You don't consider it normal social interaction for a teenager to be able to talk to a shop clerk without getting anxious that their mom isn't with them for a minute or without getting angry that someone spoke to them?

What is your long term goal? Are you, as the other poster, aiming to raise hermits? If not, what do you see changing in the next four years to render her capable of functioning independently?

My understanding of the goal of AP is to raise attached, independent, confident people. I am having trouble understanding how teaching teenagers that it is abnormal to talk to adults accomplishes that.
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#110 of 114 Old 05-02-2007, 02:32 PM
 
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Roar, I am deffo not trying to raise hermits. My two dd's are very sociable, the phone is always ringing for them and they have a very good social life, far better than mine My son is a bit more reserved but still more than capable of interacting with others should he wish to. We as humans are social creatures, I mean I can see that. But not everybody needs that interaction a lot and I think it's good to set your own boundaries as a child because there can be an underlying acceptance that children aren't really able to make their own decisions especially if that decision( say not to talk to someone) does not correspond with the accepted 'norm'. I have known many children and adults who are not particularly chatty with others and I don't think thats a problem. Perhaps it takes some children longer to find that level of comfort when engaging with others and it's not like everyone on planet earth is an ok person either and so some reticence may be expected. FWIW I'm now quite chatty with strangers( 39 now) but feel more useful if I'm actually helping someone, like helping old ladies across the road, opening doors for ladies with buggies etc, actions speak louder than words.
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#111 of 114 Old 05-02-2007, 02:59 PM
 
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So, exactly what interaction do you consider normal for a teenager? You don't consider it normal social interaction for a teenager to be able to talk to a shop clerk without getting anxious that their mom isn't with them for a minute or without getting angry that someone spoke to them?
She was NOT anxious. She simply didn't want to talk to him. And FWIW he was an older teenage boy. So that might have had a lot to do with it.

And yes, I consider it PERFECTLY normal to not want to speak to older teenage boys when you are only a 13 year old girl. She is shy and will come out of it when she is ready. Pushing her is NOT going to accomplish anything.
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#112 of 114 Old 05-02-2007, 03:27 PM
 
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I always remember the boys joking about the doctor asking them to "turn their head & cough" Is that what the doc wanted? Also, I'd much rather be checked by a stranger then a close family friend. If hair is developing it can be embarassing! I'm glad it all worked out.
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#113 of 114 Old 05-02-2007, 04:48 PM
 
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I'm having a hard time with some of the animosity towards medical personnel here. I hope that anyone who felt I was out to harm their child would take their business elsewhere.

I cannot agree more about giving preteens and young teens the opportunity to speak with me privately. In my state kids 12 and up can consent on their own for care for pregnancy, STD testing or counseling, birth control, mental health issues or substance abuse. When I do a sports physical for a 7th grader, I merely mention that as they get older they may have issues they wish to discuss, and that they are welcome to ask here without fear that I'll be reporting immediately to their parents. I always tell teens that I hope they'll discuss any issues with their parents, and that it's always best if their parents know what's going on in their lives, but that they can get care from me for birth control, or STD testing, or whatever on their own. An awful lot of kids tell me in private that they are sexually active and wondering about preventing pregnancy, or they just started smoking, or whatever who wouldn't say the same in front of their parents. And unfortunately, not every young teen has supportive, understanding parents and might be in physical danger if their parents knew they were having sex, or drinking, or whatever. Having a neutral place they can discuss things is helpful for a lot of teens. Knowing ahead of time where they can go if they have a sudden need for birth control, or are feeling depressed or whatever

I also take a few moments alone with the parent to make sure they don't have any particular concerns, and to clarify for them that I'll be telling their child about their right to confidential care.

I also agree that any patient has the right to know why I'm suggesting any part of the exam or tests or whatever. I'm perfectly fine with an informed patient declining anything they want, and have many clients who've not wanted this or that and it's no big deal. I see my role as offering services and expertise, and my patients choose them or not. I assume that's why people hire me - not that they are feeling like they need to protect themselves from me.

I love teens and preteens, actually, and really enjoy seeing them. I like their honesty and enthusiasm. I think the fact that I genuinely enjoy my young patients is obvious to them, as that is one area of my practice that is always booming as young folks send their friends to me. I see visits with young folks not as an opportunity to coerce them into a bunch of stuff or prepare them to be sheeple, but as the chance to start a good working relationship together so if they need me for anything more personal/serious down the road they are comfortable coming back and know I will be respectful and helpful. That's all I'm trying to do.

As for the OP, good for you for working it out in a way respectful to this young man. Perhaps the doc can explain to him at a time when he is not needing any exam why he looks for hernias in young guys and help him feel more at ease in the future. And if he's never more at ease, at least he'll know what exactly he's declining.
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#114 of 114 Old 05-03-2007, 02:25 PM
 
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I was always traumatized by the "quick peeks" at my private areas. I had precocious puberty, however, so I do understand why it was necessary. I didnt have a pelvic until I was 18. (I still wasnt sexually active, however.) I was always bothered that my parents were in the room for exams (and never left). Even the dr asking me if I wanted them to leave would have been problematic....you cant exactly tell your parents you want them to leave, if there is something dysfunctional about the relationship. (Sure, they might leave at the moment, but as soon as you leave the harassment would begin, "Why'd you want me to leave? What's going on? How could you do that to me? What were you thinking? etc) IME it would have been better for the parents stepping out to have been routine. Now, obviously there are exceptions. If a child obviously did not want the parent to leave, that should be respected. I was 18 and in college before I was ever alone with a dr. But I also really want to know, with all the discussions of teenagers having medical privacy and being able to go to their dr with concerns, how would that work, exactly? How are they going to go to the dr without their parents knowing/ signing off on insurance/ etc? I had things I wanted to see a doc about as a teenager, but I never knew how I could go to a doctor without my parents.
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