HAPPY update to "Would you let her keep the child" - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 147 Old 06-28-2007, 02:15 AM
 
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So what do we do with 13 year olds, or any aged women, who are pregnant but who do not wish to parent a child? Coerce them into parenting? Compel them with societal pressures into making some half hearted, insincere effort at caring for a child? Making them feel that they are wrong, evil, selfish, poor mothers for recognizing the reality that they are not capable of raising a child at this point in their lives?

Lighten up, people. I'm sorry that forty years ago young women felt like that had no options for single parenthood and were persuaded into relinquishments they felt conflicted over. That's not the reality today and that's certainly not the reality for a thirteen year old girl living in foster care.

Let the child make a responsible decision - for herself and especially for her child - without being cast as either a villian or a victim.
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#62 of 147 Old 06-28-2007, 02:58 AM
 
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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes View Post
I know I don't have the time, energy or resources for such a mammoth project. Have you? Who is this "we" we're talkin' about here, anyway?
"We" is the society, the culture. We need more respect, more support from grandparents in these situations, more laws re: the adoption industry to protect the rights of mothers and children, more social programs to provide practical and emotional support for young mamas, and to facilitate their creation of community.
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#63 of 147 Old 06-28-2007, 03:02 AM
 
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So what do we do with 13 year olds, or any aged women, who are pregnant but who do not wish to parent a child? Coerce them into parenting? Compel them with societal pressures into making some half hearted, insincere effort at caring for a child?
No. If a woman does not wish to parent, if she freely chooses adoption not out of coercion or desperation, that is fine and a valid choice that I fully support.

The sticking point lies in the words "coercion" and "desperation." Look at the title of this thread, even. Smell some coercion? I sure do.

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Lighten up, people. I'm sorry that forty years ago young women felt like that had no options for single parenthood and were persuaded into relinquishments they felt conflicted over. That's not the reality today
BS. We do not live in a utopian bubble re: this stuff now. Look at the pathetic lack of a social safety net and you will see that real options all too frequently do NOT exist for young mamas and children. Add in the "Give your baby a better life" propaganda we can hear from every corner, including and especially the 'counsellors' at the adoption agency, and we have ourselves a full on unethical situation on our hands.

And that is NOT something to lighten up about.
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#64 of 147 Old 06-28-2007, 03:25 AM
 
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"We" is the society, the culture. We need more respect, more support from grandparents in these situations, more laws re: the adoption industry to protect the rights of mothers and children, more social programs to provide practical and emotional support for young mamas, and to facilitate their creation of community.
In this situation, though, where do you propose any of that come from? I know it is easy to say, "the culture, the society" but if we're talking about individuals here, then I think everyone has done what they can do already.

And I am glad that even if the mama is something of a tragic lost soul, maybe forever, at least her child now has a fighting chance.

I kind of think the previous poster who mentioned graham-cracker paddocks for flying ponies might have had a point, albeit a totally tactless one. I'm not trying to blow off the importance of young mothering-- even I've read the articles on girl-mom, but I think this case really did resolve in the best way it could have, for these individuals.
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#65 of 147 Old 06-28-2007, 03:35 AM
 
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Anyway, I guess to me, it's kind of like anti-abortion folks who spend all this time talking about how how turrible-evil-bad it is that young women are faced with these hard reproductive/economic/ethical decisions that they would rather didn't exist.

I'm always like, um, WHO, exactly, is going to shoulder the burden for all these children whose mothers aren't ready, and who don't even show any signs of wanting to be ready, for the sacrifices of parenting? I think that's a real question. And it sounds like this mother is NOT READY. Being 13 plays a role in her unreadiness, sure, but that doesn't mean I despise teen moms or am swallowing some sort of white middleclass adoption fetish.

I'm barely hanging in there with my own kids, yk; I certainly cannot deal with a stranger's very complex situation. I would imagine that's how it is for most people.
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#66 of 147 Old 06-28-2007, 06:35 AM
 
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Wow. People here really do have alot of opinions on this. But who cares? We are not here to judge this situation. That child and her baby are doing what is best for them. As for the "The Primal Wound" garbage, I am one of 4 adopted children, raised by wonderful loving parents, none of us feels a "loss" or anything near that sense. It is nonsense to think that a bio mom has more of a connection than an adoptive mom. That thinking is right out of the stone ages. That is like saying a mother is better than a father when you have to make a choice between an unfit/fit parent. The point is, she HAD a chance at a life with the baby, SHE choose to continue to break the rules, SHE choose to not not "grow" up and mother the child the way a baby should be mothered. Will that child have a better life? If the adoptive family is a good one then yes, the baby will not sense a "loss" of it's bio mom. And no, I am not against a teen-ager having a child and keeping it. My dearest friend of 2 decades had a child at 16. She had wonderful support, she raised the child beautifully, continued on to get her masters degree and now has a almost 20 yr.old man who is balanced and wonderful and on the deans list with a major in computer sciencel. The difference is, she GREW UP AND BECAME A MOTHER. Not an immature 13 yr. old who leaves her baby in the middle of the night to joyride-- A mother who assumes someone else is taking care of her child.--A mother who has NO BUSINESS being a mother. To all the people out there who were adopted into bad situations, I am sorry. But anyone who (like myself and 3 sibs) were adopted into a wonderful family, there is no "primal wound". The definition of a mother is not someone who gave us the ability to cry, but the one who dried away the tears and comforted us etc. To say we are "missing out" because we were not "raised" by our bio mom is INSULTING. I'll make sure to tell my 26 yr.old co-worker, who didn't "find" out she was pregnant til 7 mths. and continue to drink, smoke (and do drugs) and talk about how she couldn't possibly raise a child to go back on her decision to give the baby to a wonderful infertile couple (who know the risks of her behavior) because the baby might suffer "primal wounds" because she gave him up. Gee, I just wish there was a magical potion to make every bio mom a good mom--but there isn't. So therefore, as a society, we need to understand that SOME PEOPLE WON"T MAKE GOOD PARENTS. A 13 yr' old with no interest (other than shes LOVES the child) to be a mother could not possibly make a good parent to the child. Sad for the mother? Yes..but she choose that road to be traveled by NOT GROWING UP (or perhaps, by being 13 yrs'old, not having the MATURITY to make good decisions) . Sad for the child? No way in #$@@. The child is better off in a stable, loving family who have the resources (not talking money here) to raise the child. I say again, GOOD FOR HER to have the strength to let go..
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#67 of 147 Old 06-28-2007, 10:11 AM
 
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Originally Posted by blessed View Post
So what do we do with 13 year olds, or any aged women, who are pregnant but who do not wish to parent a child? Coerce them into parenting? Compel them with societal pressures into making some half hearted, insincere effort at caring for a child? Making them feel that they are wrong, evil, selfish, poor mothers for recognizing the reality that they are not capable of raising a child at this point in their lives?
I am anti-adoption and I wouldn't even advocate that. I would advocate guardianship for the child, in a stable loving home, without any amended birth certificates or any of the other trappings of the adoption industry. But that really has nothing to do with THIS mother, who wanted her baby.

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Lighten up, people. I'm sorry that forty years ago young women felt like that had no options for single parenthood and were persuaded into relinquishments they felt conflicted over. That's not the reality today and that's certainly not the reality for a thirteen year old girl living in foster care.
How dismissive and insulting of you to suggest that modern adoption is free of coercion. I don't know about you, but where I live, women ARE pressured into surrendering their wanted infants and a 13 year old in foster care IS in a terribly precarious position.

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#68 of 147 Old 06-28-2007, 10:25 AM
 
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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes View Post
Anyway, I guess to me, it's kind of like anti-abortion folks who spend all this time talking about how how turrible-evil-bad it is that young women are faced with these hard reproductive/economic/ethical decisions that they would rather didn't exist.
Except that they argue AGAINST choice and power for women, while I am arguing FOR it. And I rarely see anti-choicers advocating for more social programs, less coercion of pregnant women.

Kinda polar opposites, dontcha think?
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#69 of 147 Old 06-28-2007, 10:59 AM
 
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I wonder if anyone - anyone - suggested in all seriousness to this girl that she could parent, and could do it well. My guess is that; once she pee'd on a stick, everyone went into a tizzy about her "options" and about the "poor baby" and the "better life" the baby would have with someone else. I would imagine that the pressure to abort ir reliquish was very, very strong. In turn, it makes me wonder if she was ever able to bond with the baby. I know if I thought that my baby would be taken from me when s/he was born (or I was feeling loads of pressure to give him/her up), it would affect my ability to bond - and probably to parent when the time came. I wonder if anyone really asked her what she wanted and really gave her resources to make it happen - or if they just tried to talk her into giving her baby away
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#70 of 147 Old 06-28-2007, 11:02 AM
 
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I wonder if anyone - anyone - suggested in all seriousness to this girl that she could parent, and could do it well. My guess is that; once she pee'd on a stick, everyone went into a tizzy about her "options" and about the "poor baby" and the "better life" the baby would have with someone else. I would imagine that the pressure to abort ir reliquish was very, very strong. In turn, it makes me wonder if she was ever able to bond with the baby. I know if I thought that my baby would be taken from me when s/he was born (or I was feeling loads of pressure to give him/her up), it would affect my ability to bond - and probably to parent when the time came. I wonder if anyone really asked her what she wanted and really gave her resources to make it happen - or if they just tried to talk her into giving her baby away
Yep. Insecure attachment goes both ways.
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#71 of 147 Old 06-28-2007, 11:13 AM
 
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as someone who was married and had her first child at 16. I had some adjustments to make, But I was given the chance. I was and am a great mother,

and I believe most open adoptions are a joke nowadays especially when the mother is a minor.

I know to many young women who give there babies up in what they think is an open adoption and never get to see there babies again.


I too do not feel too thrilled or joyous over this update.

Loving Dh, Mama x 4, Surrogate mother to 5. A born 2003, M and R girl/girl twins 2006, S and C boy/girl twins born 2010. Processing/healing.
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#72 of 147 Old 06-28-2007, 11:32 AM
 
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You know, I think the thing that has ruffled feathers on this thread is the insistence that this is a "happy" outcome. I can concede that it may well be the best outcome for some of the people involved based on all the circumstances in this case and the realities of the society in which we live - but "best" and "happy" are not equal. It's certainly not happy that the 13 year old has been failed so miserably by her family and by the system that was supposed to protect her. It's certainly not happy that, at 13 years old, she has been written off as a lost cause.
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#73 of 147 Old 06-28-2007, 11:32 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I am just shocked at all the anti adoption posts here. I had no idea there were people who think that the birth mother is a better mother than an adoptive mother. I am not adopted, but that insults me. I have many freinds who have adopted children. Some from here in the states, and some from other countries.

This girl CAN'T raise that child. She never would have been able to raise him.

She left him in the middle of the night and snuck out of the house. She stole her Foster parent's car, and went for a joyride. She has been arrested more times than I can count. She is in juvinile prison. Then she must spend at least a year in a group home for girls. SHE made these choices when she stole the car and a number of other things that SHE chose to do.

YES, she was given a sucky life. Her parents were neglectful, and abusive. Her Grandmother was neglectful of her own kids, it started years ago, and it wasn't fair to this 13 yr old who should have had a better life. The 13 yr old's father and sister are in prison for drugs. Obviously there has been a lot of drugs in her life. It is a rumor (I don't know if it is true) that she was sexually abused by her father's drug friends. Her Mother bailed out on them when she was very little. Mom left her daughters with Dad for a while, then they lived with Grandma. Grandma couldn't deal with them. The schools were calling every week with problems. Grandma wasn't equipped for parenting when her own kids were little. She certainly couldn't handle her Grandkids, much less a great grand baby.

This teenage girl has every right to be mad. She should have had loving, responsible, supportive parents. But, she didn't.

Perhaps if she had been adopted by a loving supportive drug free family at birth. She wouldn't even have to make this decision.

Perhaps by allowing her son to be adopted, she can separate herself from her family one day, and start all over again.

But, in the end, adoption IS the best thing for this little boy. Some of you think that the Bio Mom is the only important person in this story. But, to me, the most important person. Is that little boy. He deserves to be treated like a special and important little baby. He deserves to wake up crying, and have someone go in and get him, and rock him.

Edited to add: She was very happy and excited to have made the choice she made.
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#74 of 147 Old 06-28-2007, 11:36 AM
 
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You know, I think the thing that has ruffled feathers on this thread is the insistence that this is a "happy" outcome.
Partly it's the "Happy outcome" update, and partly it's the original title: "Would you LET her keep the child?" [emphasis mine].

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I am just shocked at all the anti adoption posts here. I had no idea there were people who think that the birth mother is a better mother than an adoptive mother. I am not adopted, but that insults me.
I am sorry you feel insulted. However, I feel there is a lot of insult in the way this thread is set up, and in the anti-young-mama bias.

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Perhaps by allowing her son to be adopted, she can separate herself from her family one day, and start all over again.
Mebbe. Or maybe she will grieve the loss of her son for the rest of her life. These things, when coerced, can be truly soul destroying.

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But, in the end, adoption IS the best thing for this little boy.
Dunno.

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Some of you think that the Bio Mom is the only important person in this story. But, to me, the most important person. Is that little boy. He deserves to be treated like a special and important little baby. He deserves to wake up crying, and have someone go in and get him, and rock him.
Yes, he does deserve that. AND he deserves IMO for that to be his actual MOTHER if at all possible. I think this girl and her son have been failed here, and that they did not get a real chance. That is what I find so disturbing about this story, from the OP assuming anyone but the mama could/should control whether she keeps her child, onward to the "happy" update.
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#75 of 147 Old 06-28-2007, 11:36 AM
 
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I wonder if anyone - anyone - suggested in all seriousness to this girl that she could parent, and could do it well...I wonder if anyone really asked her what she wanted and really gave her resources to make it happen...
I don't know, did you?

How many pregnant women have you invited to live in your home during gestation and delivery? How many hours per week are you babysitting for free while a struggling mother works or takes classes?

When it turns out that the young mother has personality disorders and is violent and disruptive with you and your family; or substance abuse issues and is stealing from your home or prostituting for money to buy drugs with; or simply prefers to spend all of her nights and evenings partying with friends, then sleeping in all day rather than sitting with a kid cleaning up vomit and diapers, are you going to stick it out for the next 18 years so that she has a roof over her head and a bed for the baby to sleep in?

There is no government policy or subsidization that can make any meaningful difference in the life of a parent who is unsupported, unprepared and unequipped to deal with life - much LESS raising a child. No social worker or counselor or program or cheap housing or boxes of free food or check in the mail is going to be anywhere close to what it takes to parent a child. Otherwise our nation's foster care system wouldn't be overflowing with damaged, traumatized children.

Adoption is a solution that, while imperfect, works, and works very well. Unless you've got something else - something realistic, something implementable, not just some glorified exaultation of the beauty of parenthood - then children are going to be continued to be best served by responsible decisions for their lives, including consideration of the solution of relinquishment.
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#76 of 147 Old 06-28-2007, 11:40 AM
 
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There is no government policy or subsidization that can make any meaningful difference in the life of a parent who is unsupported, unprepared and unequipped to deal with life - much LESS raising a child.
Completely false. Here where I live we have some programs for young mamas and their children that are really great. Housing, income, emotional support, and community of other young mamas. Those things make a HUGE difference for people and whether they are able to parent. HUGE.
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#77 of 147 Old 06-28-2007, 11:43 AM
 
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I agree. It's too bad the teacher couldn't have adopted the teenager and let her keep her own baby (helping her raise the child, but not taking over). Now THAT would have been a happy update.
I agree. I think it's incredibly sad. She lost her baby.
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#78 of 147 Old 06-28-2007, 12:04 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Completely false. Here where I live we have some programs for young mamas and their children that are really great. Housing, income, emotional support, and community of other young mamas. Those things make a HUGE difference for people and whether they are able to parent. HUGE.
We have those here too. But, she can't be in that situation.

You guys don't get it. SHE IS RUNNING AWAY AT NIGHT AND STEALING CARS! These homes where they train young mothers to take care of their babies, and teach them how to feed, bathe, financially support their babies is for women who WANT to do these things.

They are run by wonderful giving adults who spend their time and energy with these young people. It's a lot of work, and I commend them. They live with these young women 24/7.

Those of you who think that there should be more done should DO it. I'm not being sarcastic. You could take in one or two young pregnant girls and teach them how to parent. There are organizations who help Moms by giving them a place to live while they are pregnant, then help them get on their feet.

OR you could be a foster parent, and specifically only foster young pregnant women who can't decide what they want.

There is a Christian organization called CRISIS PREGNANCY. They buy homes and several young Mothers live there together with their babies. They have supervision, and support.

You could offer free childcare to young mothers so they can finish school. By doing that, you could also mentor them, and be there for the late night ear aches when the Mom isn't sure why the baby is crying.

There are a lot of things you can do to help out.
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#79 of 147 Old 06-28-2007, 12:11 PM
 
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just loving your baby is not enough to be a parent! you have to take care of that child and put its needs before your own.

as an adoptee i am finding this thread incredibly insulting.
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#80 of 147 Old 06-28-2007, 12:16 PM
 
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just loving your baby is not enough to be a parent! you have to take care of that child and put its needs before your own.
Very true. And it is clear that was not happening in this situation. However, it also sounds like it may have been a set up from the very beginning, and that energy was focused on controlling what this girl chose re: adoption, where it could have been directed toward support and encouragement.
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#81 of 147 Old 06-28-2007, 12:37 PM
 
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Well, biologically they are capable, no? If a young woman births a child, she is a parent. The difference is whether she is a parent of a baby with her, or a parent of a baby removed.
No the difference is are they going to be a competent parent who will be able to nurture and care for the health and development of their baby OR are they going to sneak out in the middle of the night, leave the baby unsupervised and risk the basic health and survival of the baby.

I'm waiting to hear from the other posters - nine year olds are capable of giving birth? Should they be have custody of their children to raise them? Are they capable of doing so?
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#82 of 147 Old 06-28-2007, 12:40 PM
 
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Talk to some birthmamas about "adoption today." Or some adult adoptees about adoption in recent generations.
Yes, I have. There are folks who are very pleased with the way adoption has worked out for them and for the children involved. I wonder why it is important to some folks to ignore that? And, in the process to heap a load of crap and shame on people who recognize that giving birth doesn't mean they have the desire or capability to do a good job raising a child.
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#83 of 147 Old 06-28-2007, 12:48 PM
 
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thismama you may very well be right about this girls situation. this whole topic hits a little too close to home for me to be objective about it... not only am i an adoptee and a teen mom but i am also the mother of an almost 13 year old! i realize that there are plenty of 13 year olds that have forced to grow up far too fast, but i look at my son and think NO WAY! there is no way my kid could be an adequate parent at this point, no way. he is still too much of a child.
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#84 of 147 Old 06-28-2007, 12:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Very true. And it is clear that was not happening in this situation. However, it also sounds like it may have been a set up from the very beginning, and that energy was focused on controlling what this girl chose re: adoption, where it could have been directed toward support and encouragement.

Remember, she lived with a Foster family. She was pregnant when she moved in there. They gave her support and tried to teach her basic childcare. She had the baby, they brought them both back home and took care of both of them. They were helping her and mentoring her. But, in the six months after the baby was born she did nothing to show that she wanted to take care of this child. She was angry and resentful of their rules, and she broke them constantly. Leaving her sleeping infant in his bed while she left the house to go party.

SO, the foster parents decided that it was not in the best interest of her other children to allow her to stay in the house.

I THINK (but, I don't know) that they had one more foster home before she stole the car. But, it could have all been at the same foster home. That was just the impression I got.

She has a long record of theft, and other offenses. So, she HAS had many chances.
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#85 of 147 Old 06-28-2007, 01:00 PM
 
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Yes, I have. There are folks who are very pleased with the way adoption has worked out for them and for the children involved. I wonder why it is important to some folks to ignore that?
Nobody is ignoring that. Nobody here is saying that adoption is e-val and should never occur.

What is being said is that the climate of non-support, coercion, and desperation is not okay, and that the adoption industry as it now stands is ethically corrupt.

Mamas should get to make a real CHOICE about adoption. Babies should get to be with their mamas if it is feasible. Young mamas should get the support that we all need!!! to mother well and raise their children well.

I don't see what is so controversial about that.
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#86 of 147 Old 06-28-2007, 01:11 PM
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There are a number of threads of thought going on here- one looking specifically at the individual case of the 13 year old as described by the op and one looking at adoption in a larger context...


This whole thread seems to be a lost cause on so many levels.

Unsubbing.
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#87 of 147 Old 06-28-2007, 01:12 PM
 
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There are plenty of mother's out there that break the law... they are still good mothers... actually there are mother's out there getting to keep there children with them most of the time they are in jail....


So if she would have been allowed to have her child with her through this mess she is into who's to say it wouldn't have changed her? Or given her the chance to learn how to be a better women?

Loving Dh, Mama x 4, Surrogate mother to 5. A born 2003, M and R girl/girl twins 2006, S and C boy/girl twins born 2010. Processing/healing.
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#88 of 147 Old 06-28-2007, 01:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Just another story supporting adoption...

My best friend's daughter got pregnant at 19. Not really young, I know, but she was not a responsible person. She was what she called a "Screw up". She wasn't all that bad, she just didn't make good decisions.

She had Alex (name was changed). Not long after Alex was born, he started to show signs of a flat head. It kept getting flatter and flatter. The Doctor had her take him in for a helmet. She was too busy to keep her apppointment. Turned out, she never took him out of his car seat, so his head just molded to the car seat. She even propped his bottles in his mouth while he was in the car seat.

Eventually he learned to walk and crawl. She called him "A bad baby"

One night, a neighbor complained that he was crying hysterically and seemed to sound exhausted. So, the police were called. SHe had left him alone for over 24 hours with only a sippy cup of spoiled milk and a few bowls of cheerios that she had scattered throughout the apartment. The reason they knew it had been over 24 hours was because she had been arrested the night before, and was still in jail, because she never called anyone to bail her out, or go get Alex.

Alex was taken away, and given to the Grandma for six months til Mom took parenting classes.

WHen he was two, she was caught giving him Pot, so he would sleep, so they could party. She was arrested, he was taken away and sent to live with Grandma for six months while Mom went to rehab and took parenting classes.

When he was five, he went outside the apartment and didn't come back when she called him. Mom got mad. She told him she hated him and he ruined her life. Then she took a gun and shot herself in the head in front of him. But, not before she told him it was his fault.

He is six now and lives with his Grandma.

Nobody could have known this would happen. But, she was talked INTO keeping him. She wanted to give him up for adoption, but everybody she knew said, "No, keep the baby, I will help you raise him." None of those people were there five years later.
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#89 of 147 Old 06-28-2007, 01:16 PM
 
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So that is a story of an abusive mother. Proves what, exactly? I could come back with a story of an abusive adoptive mother. Abuse sucks, is the meaning of that anecdote.
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#90 of 147 Old 06-28-2007, 01:19 PM
 
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sad story... but this is opposite situation.. this girl wanted her baby.

Loving Dh, Mama x 4, Surrogate mother to 5. A born 2003, M and R girl/girl twins 2006, S and C boy/girl twins born 2010. Processing/healing.
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