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#1 of 23 Old 10-06-2007, 02:22 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I don't think I will be going to the hospital unless I am dying. They've made it fairly clear that they don't really want to deal with me.

On Tuesday I have a meeting with the OB Department, (yes you read that right) and I am assuming someone from legal as well. They want me to sign some sort of paperwork they have had drawn up to release them from liability because I am VBACing and refusing continuous EFM. This meeting follows a very long tense meeting with the new OB in charge of VBAC(I think that's what he is) and my midwife, where I learned that the OB is an idiot fearmonger and my CNM is completely spineless when it comes to advocating for her patients and backing up her professed convictions.

So I intend to go this meeting that they scheduled without making sure I was available and take their paperwork and tell them I'd be happy to sign it in front of them after I have had someone at legal(not Naval Hospital Legal, obviously) take a look it to make sure that I am not signing away any recourse I would have in case these people actually do something terrible. (By the way, I know of at least 2 babies born here via c/s that had their faces slashed by the OB, which I will be bringing up if I am given a hard time about that.) I'm going to tell them that I will set up a meeting for that at my convience next week, and ask which of them wants to see me for it. And if there is any sort of implication that they need to "talk" more about this with me, then I am going to tell them that they should have contacted me directly to set up a meeting time instead of having my CNM deliver the message at 5 till close on the Friday before the three day weekend, and I have to pick up my kid from daycare(which is true,) and that I'm not interested in having anymore OB's try to scare me into doing what they want, because it's not going to work.

So if this paperwork they want me to sign is basically saying that I can't hold them liable for anything I'm not going to sign it. I can do that right? They can't deny me care right, wouldn't that be an EMTALA violation? This whole thing kind of sucks. And no, besides the Naval Hospital, I have NO OTHER options for professional care other than calling 119(japanese 911) as the baby is crowning and having an EMT deliver it in Nihongo unless I want to pay for a Japanese Hospital birth out of pocket.

Can you belive all this NOW when I'm due in 2 seconds, just beacuse I don't want continuous EFM???

Banana, doula wife to Papa Banana and mother to Banana One, Banana Two, Banana Three, Banana Four...

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#2 of 23 Old 10-06-2007, 02:32 AM
 
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I keep trying to find something to say to you about this, but all I can think of is that sounds so frustrating it makes me want to puke!

Are you planning a UC now? You can do it!
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#3 of 23 Old 10-06-2007, 02:45 AM
 
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you can do anything mama. I'm behind you 100% whatever you decide...

that is all ludicrous for not wanting CONTINUOUS fetal monitoring!

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#4 of 23 Old 10-06-2007, 03:21 AM
 
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I'm riding the UC train for you!

And yes, they're idiots. I've yet to see any document that claims that CONTINUOUS efm results in better outcomes than intermittent. Even the guy who INVENTED EFM has stated that! (I believe that's in "Birth As an American Rite of Passage" by Robbie Davis-Floyd.)

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#5 of 23 Old 10-06-2007, 03:27 AM
 
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mama. . .this not what you need right now!

finally midwife mama to my home-birthed nurslings: Noemi Sakura 16.10.07 & Seder Pádraig 13.7.09 and partner to their lovely daddy
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#6 of 23 Old 10-06-2007, 07:10 AM
 
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That just sucks. I feel really badly for you right now... and angry on your behalf!!

Sending some positive thoughts that they stop handing you so much crap.

Suz, mommy to 2 chess-playing, lightsaber-wielding boys

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#7 of 23 Old 10-06-2007, 07:41 AM
 
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Wow, that suck! wish we could help!

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#8 of 23 Old 10-06-2007, 09:50 AM
 
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This is pretty much what has happened to me 2 pregnancies in a row now, except that I was not invited to the meeting last time and this time there is only one OB at the practice, so it was just him. Last time all I wanted was a VBAC (never got so far as to discuss the specifics) and the whole staff had a "meeting" to decide if I was "allowed" or not, and decided that I was not. I was informed of this by one of them, with no chance to discuss it or debate it. When I did not go along, they fired me. The letter came via certified mail on October 10th...the day my daughter was due. It was completely illegal but they did it anyways.

That being said, if you want to have your baby in the hospital, and want to refuse any and every intervention, assuming your hospital follows the EMTALA (emergency medical treatment and active labor act) then you have every right to show up at the hospital and have the baby the way that you want to. If you show up in an emergency situation, or in active labor they are legally and ethically required to admit you, and are not allowed to force you to do anything you do not agree to.
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#9 of 23 Old 10-06-2007, 09:59 AM
 
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I am sorry you are going through this right now.....you certainly don't need this stress!

Rikki ~~ Married Aug 04 ~~ DD Feb 06 ~~ DS Oct 07 ~~ DD April 12

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#10 of 23 Old 10-06-2007, 12:31 PM
 
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I think you can write on the contract to change a part or cross out a part if you want. Talk to your lawyer about it. If it comes down to it I would UC!
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#11 of 23 Old 10-06-2007, 12:53 PM
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If you are going to UC at home that's great. There are stories already of mom's having successful labors at home unassisted and vbac. But, if you are asking these doctors to "clean up the mess" I mean, if something goes wrong, they may be the one's saving your lives and you need to respect their point of view. We are saying "yeah! go for it, do what you want for you and what you think is right!" that's all well and good but look at it from their point of view. They need to cover their own asses. They don't know how you will react and what could happen. I mean, UBACing at home? We are a very small minority backing up that decision. Their research and numbers back up their opinions and actions. If you are going to the hospital you are asking for their help because you are no longer in a situation you can control. You need to trust them. I seriously doubt that any doctor is going to go out of their way to do anything unnecessary but they will act in the way they believe to be correct and in the best interest of you and the child. Many doctor's won't touch a vbac, many midwives won't touch a vbac. You want a ubac. Think about it. It sounds like you are automatically assuming that they aren't going to do their best. You can't blame them for questioning your decision. Hell, I question your decision but I support you. I'm sure if they make a mistake like slashing a child's face during a c-section they can be held responsible for that but if you come in hemmoraging it could be debatable. Statistically, the highest cause of death to mother's during pregnancy is hemmoraging. That can be controlled better in a hospital. If your c-section scar tears during delivery that's what you are looking at. Home birth has been statistically proved to be safe for the mother but the same study shows that it can be dangerous for the baby. You are asking the US military to think outside the box. Be realistic. If you believe so strongly in your right and ability to UBAC than the paperwork is irrelivant. If they want you to sign it because they are small minded, that's their business, not really yours. I don't know how a military hospital works but a US hospital has to accept you and the on call OB has to treat you.

I would go in there and accept what they have to say. If you are allowed your opinion they are allowed theirs. You are only going to the hospital if you are dying so look at it that way. The chances of you showing up are remote and I'm sure the docs will only act accordingly to save your life to the best of their ability. They aren't going to stop and judge you for a while before treating you or your child. You can't ask them to go against their own protocols. You can try to work with them with a positive attitude.
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#12 of 23 Old 10-06-2007, 01:29 PM
 
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I seriously doubt that any doctor is going to go out of their way to do anything unnecessary but they will act in the way they believe to be correct and in the best interest of you and the child.
This couldn't be further from the truth. The majority of doctors now are only worried about covering their asses and will do unnecessary things that DO harm mother and baby. Aside from that I've heard Doctors telling nurses to turn the Pit all the way up, "If she isn't to 10 by 2pm I'm going to cut her. My son has a boy scout meeting to get to by 4."
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#13 of 23 Old 10-06-2007, 01:46 PM
 
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I'm one of those moms who has VBAC'd at home after a horrible hospital cesarean (and an OB "staff" that flat out refused to even "let me" consider a VBAC)

I don't think that agreeing to go to a hospital means you should give up control of the entire situation and trust that they have our best interest at heart. I'm sorry to disagree w/ you Victoria, but I fully believe, from all the research I have done, and all the midwives I have spoken with and legal stuff I have read, that it is NOT about us most of the time. Its not about "doing whats right for the patient". Its about legal "stuff" (if they do a cesarean and something goes wrong they "did everything in their power" which is protected by law, where letting someone VBAC looks like negligence because they trusted the body instead of being more hands on... the end result isnt even important, so much as proving that they did SOMETHING)

As for "covering their asses"... considering that it has to do with the legal ramifications and not with the actual outcome, I personally don't feel any overwhelming need to care about their asses, when its mine on the line, ya know?

There are a LOT more people UBACing at home than you may believe. Most just choose not to publicize it. I've stumbled upon atleast a half dozen in RL, and I dont even like talking to people in RL (I'm a bit of a hermit). There are also the people that belong to the UBAC groups on yahoo (I had never heard of MDC when I had mine) and the people that have a BTDT attitude and dont feel the need to chat about it. Plus those w/out the internet "addiction" most of us have. My cousin has had 8 children all UC and I didnt even know it until last year. My other cousin has all of her children at home w/ a midwife and I didnt know that either.

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Their research and numbers back up their opinions and actions. If you are going to the hospital you are asking for their help because you are no longer in a situation you can control. You need to trust them.
When I asked my OB just to share some research or "numbers" regarding their decision not to let me VBAC, she couldn't give me ONE SINGLE ARTICLE OR STATISTIC OR ANYTHING. Its just proceedure and protocol. They do what they do and they don't feel the need to justify it to anyone, let alone a "silly emotional pregnant woman".

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Home birth has been statistically proved to be safe for the mother but the same study shows that it can be dangerous for the baby.
I would love to see this study? I havent ever seen a study that suggested that home birth is anything but good for the baby.

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You are asking the US military to think outside the box. Be realistic. If you believe so strongly in your right and ability to UBAC than the paperwork is irrelivant. If they want you to sign it because they are small minded, that's their business, not really yours. I don't know how a military hospital works but a US hospital has to accept you and the on call OB has to treat you.
My mom is an officer in the military and my dad is retired ex-military. People in the military are not used to being questioned. Doctors are not used to being questioned either. I'm sorry but they SHOULD be questioned. If you could see the variety of care available just depending on what doctor you get, you would have to see that just because they say its so doesnt mean its right. If they all come to different conclusions and they all think *they* are the right one, how can both be true?

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They aren't going to stop and judge you for a while before treating you or your child. You can't ask them to go against their own protocols.
They'll save you because its their job. But that doesnt mean they don't judge or that they wouldn't change how they treat you based on that. Doctors and nurses judge based on their own experiences/egos/attitudes just like everyone else. And I dont see why we cant ask them to go against their own "protocols". Its not their body, and the end decisions SHOULD be the choice of the person who these things are being done to.

IMO not every doctor or nurse or OB or midwife is "bad". Most are just trying to do their jobs and go home to their families like everyone else. But that doesnt mean we should blindly trust or accept their "decisions" without input, OR that we should not insist on evidence based care, and the BEST care possible. Just because they have been doing it for years and it takes a mountain to change "protocols" does not mean we should continue to do things in an archaic way that is not in the best interest of the patients.

Its our job as pregnant women..heck...as patients in the general medical industry... to expect the very best care and accept nothing less. If we don't call them on it when they act in a way that is not in our best interest, who will?
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#14 of 23 Old 10-06-2007, 02:22 PM
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I'm one of those moms who has VBAC'd at home after a horrible hospital cesarean (and an OB "staff" that flat out refused to even "let me" consider a VBAC)

I don't think that agreeing to go to a hospital means you should give up control of the entire situation and trust that they have our best interest at heart. I'm sorry to disagree w/ you Victoria, but I fully believe, from all the research I have done, and all the midwives I have spoken with and legal stuff I have read, that it is NOT about us most of the time. Its not about "doing whats right for the patient". Its about legal "stuff" (if they do a cesarean and something goes wrong they "did everything in their power" which is protected by law, where letting someone VBAC looks like negligence because they trusted the body instead of being more hands on... the end result isnt even important, so much as proving that they did SOMETHING)

As for "covering their asses"... considering that it has to do with the legal ramifications and not with the actual outcome, I personally don't feel any overwhelming need to care about their asses, when its mine on the line, ya know?

There are a LOT more people UBACing at home than you may believe. Most just choose not to publicize it. I've stumbled upon atleast a half dozen in RL, and I dont even like talking to people in RL (I'm a bit of a hermit). There are also the people that belong to the UBAC groups on yahoo (I had never heard of MDC when I had mine) and the people that have a BTDT attitude and dont feel the need to chat about it. Plus those w/out the internet "addiction" most of us have. My cousin has had 8 children all UC and I didnt even know it until last year. My other cousin has all of her children at home w/ a midwife and I didnt know that either.



When I asked my OB just to share some research or "numbers" regarding their decision not to let me VBAC, she couldn't give me ONE SINGLE ARTICLE OR STATISTIC OR ANYTHING. Its just proceedure and protocol. They do what they do and they don't feel the need to justify it to anyone, let alone a "silly emotional pregnant woman".



I would love to see this study? I havent ever seen a study that suggested that home birth is anything but good for the baby.



My mom is an officer in the military and my dad is retired ex-military. People in the military are not used to being questioned. Doctors are not used to being questioned either. I'm sorry but they SHOULD be questioned. If you could see the variety of care available just depending on what doctor you get, you would have to see that just because they say its so doesnt mean its right. If they all come to different conclusions and they all think *they* are the right one, how can both be true?



They'll save you because its their job. But that doesnt mean they don't judge or that they wouldn't change how they treat you based on that. Doctors and nurses judge based on their own experiences/egos/attitudes just like everyone else. And I dont see why we cant ask them to go against their own "protocols". Its not their body, and the end decisions SHOULD be the choice of the person who these things are being done to.

IMO not every doctor or nurse or OB or midwife is "bad". Most are just trying to do their jobs and go home to their families like everyone else. But that doesnt mean we should blindly trust or accept their "decisions" without input, OR that we should not insist on evidence based care, and the BEST care possible. Just because they have been doing it for years and it takes a mountain to change "protocols" does not mean we should continue to do things in an archaic way that is not in the best interest of the patients.

Its our job as pregnant women..heck...as patients in the general medical industry... to expect the very best care and accept nothing less. If we don't call them on it when they act in a way that is not in our best interest, who will?

Ok, so I do agree with you but the point I'm really trying to make is if you are looking for back up for your choice to UBAC you can't just expect a doctor to just bend over backwards to help you. It's like mixing oil and water. You can question and challenge anyone you want but you can't just expect them to agree with you. It's better to meet that with positive, understanding emotions than combative ones. If you accept them for who they are then you are more likely to be accepted for who you are. Yeah, the military is not used to being questioned so what makes you think you doing it is going to make a difference? Is it really worth the energy at this point. The OB I was using in Oklahoma was very open minded but he tailored his patient treatment to practicing on the rural route and the serious complications that arise. My OB here in Indy is very opening minded to labor and delivery. I can use a birthing ball in the hospital, bear down while I'm dialating to help bring the baby down as long as I'm not actually pushing. He actually trained in a third world country and makes comparisons to women working and giving birth in the fields etc... So, not everyone is going to jump to conclusions. I'm "high risk" at 39 with GD but since I have no actual physical symptoms or background that show I need to be treated as such during labor and delivery I won't be.


As always, people read what they want to read and disregard the rest. It's all right, it just depends on how you choose to look at it. If two closed minded parties meet then nothing will be accomplished. If at least one mind is open, that mind can at least find peace.
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#15 of 23 Old 10-06-2007, 03:02 PM
 
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But, if you are asking these doctors to "clean up the mess" I mean, if something goes wrong, they may be the one's saving your lives and you need to respect their point of view.
The hell she does! Why should she respect them if they refuse to respect her?

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They need to cover their own asses.
Exactly. THEIR OWN. They don't give a flying crap about her or any other mother on that floor.

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You need to trust them.
I couldn't disagree more. Trusting them is what got her in this situation in the first place. Trusting HERSELF is what she needs to do.

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Statistically, the highest cause of death to mother's during pregnancy is hemmoraging. That can be controlled better in a hospital.
Bull. She's done her research and as someone who has a history of hemorrhage in birth, I've done mine. There is MUCH that can be done at home to resolve an issue of hemorrhage. It doesn't all have to be blood transfusions and pit.

I refuse to discuss the merits of a hospital when a mom CLEARLY wants a homebirth, preferably UBAC.

Banana, my advice is to stay home. Do what you feel is right.

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#16 of 23 Old 10-06-2007, 03:17 PM
 
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Oh, Banana, I am so sorry you are dealing with this at the last minute. They all sound like perfect A**ES. I would take the paperwork to an independent lawyer to have him/her make sure you are not giving up any important rights.

On the whole, I have to admit, I am not generally in favor of unassisted births, but I think in your situation, you might not have any other viable option, which I find an incredibly sad comment on the state of our society.

I second the pps who say to do what feels right to you. Any time I have not trusted my gut feeling on something I have been very sorry later.

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#17 of 23 Old 10-06-2007, 03:28 PM
 
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If two closed minded parties meet then nothing will be accomplished. If at least one mind is open, that mind can at least find peace.
I agree on this part... have an open mind, until they give you reason to judge otherwise, and realize that each OB/midwife/nurse is their own person with their own belief system. I just don't think that "trust them" = open mind. I think its close minded if anything, in that it just blindly trusts where trust has not been earned.

I generally don't distrust without reason, but that doesnt mean that I would not look for further information if something my OB/CNM/whatever said or did didnt sit right with me, or even if it did, I reserve the right to research and ask questions about anything in my life in regards to the medical care of myself and my family.

My only gripe is with the "my way or the highway" approach that many medical people take, because they know that you don't really have the "or the highway" approach. If I was not comfortable UC'ing Iwould have probably ended up with a court ordered cesarean last time. They were THAT insistent and aggressive about my not being allowed to VBAC.
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#18 of 23 Old 10-06-2007, 06:04 PM
 
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I think it is so sad that it has come to this point at all. All the OP wants is to give birth normally without continuous EFM (which studies show doesn't provide any benefit over intermitent!)

It's just CRAZY that she should have to sign away her rights for what should be a completely normal birth. NO pregnant woman deserves this kind of treatment, or stress, especially at this point in the pregnancy. It's going to be really hard for the OP to go into labor naturally, normally, and without fear with all this BS hanging over her. I'm so sorry.

BTW, I'm not getting from the original post that she wants a UBAC, rather that she's being cornered into it.
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#19 of 23 Old 10-06-2007, 07:01 PM
 
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It sounds like yo are being strong in your viewpoint. I think personally I would crumble. Good luck on Tues keep us posted. Is that Monday or Wednesday for us?
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#20 of 23 Old 10-06-2007, 08:38 PM
 
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I'm a third year law student and I was talking with a lawyer in my birth class that handles medical malpractice.

We were talking about signing waivers in general and she said if they really mess up, there's no amount of waivers you could sign that would release them from a lawsuit. Waivers in general are sort of a smokescreen to discourage plaintiffs from thinking they have a case, but when it comes down to it, they don't hold water in court.
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#21 of 23 Old 10-07-2007, 03:55 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks guys! Wow, you all are so supportive and wonderful! I love this DDC!

FWIW- I don't want a UBAC. I want a HBAC with a MW, but I can't have that here. As for the hospital as far as they are concerned, I want a VBAC without continuous EFM, which is like asking to move mountains apparently.

Victoria-

I am not naive enough to think that any OB here would support any UC birth, as a matter of fact I would be inclined to believe that this department would go so far as to try get CPS involved if a mom told them she intended to UC. I did mention the 2 c/s face slashings during the last year right? Did I mention the placenta in the laundry? This OB in charge VBACs is scary. As evidenced by the fact that he asked me how I intended to labor without the help of pitocin, and he was being serious and literal. An OB who can not fathom a woman dilating without the help of a drug is a dangerous man. And I do not think that you are correct in saying that he is concerened mainly with my welfare. In our first meeting, he told me at least 4times that I would have sign something drawn up by legal to release them of liability if I wanted to VBAC without continuous EFM, and then added the last time that "of course, my main concern is your welfare, and your baby's." I believe that if that were true it would have been said a lot sooner. It seemed very much like an after thought to save face.

Neither I, nor my husband(who actually works there) feel that it is a good place to give birth, so we are planning accordingly. But for a short time, it seemed as though I had found a really supportive CNM, and I thought it might be okay to go there. It would have been nice to not feel so backed into a corner.

Banana, doula wife to Papa Banana and mother to Banana One, Banana Two, Banana Three, Banana Four...

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#22 of 23 Old 10-07-2007, 03:18 PM
 
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It would be nice if you could find a CNM or just a lay midwife and happen to invite her over for coffee when your in labor
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#23 of 23 Old 10-07-2007, 04:00 PM
 
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I'm so sorry you have to go through this. If this were me, I'd be nodding and smiling, and then when I was in labor I'd just keep getting out of bed and taking the monitors off. I'd have food and eat it. Short of putting you in restraints, there's not much they can do.

Good luck, mama. I'm so sorry you have to go through this.

knit.gifWife to Ageek.gif since 7-7-2006, Mother to Mnocirc.gif since 11-23-2007ribboncesarean.gif, and N slinggirl.gifborn on 4-9-2010vbac.gif
aylaanne is offline  
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