sometimes i wonder if implanting makeup and such to girls, as they grow up they have low self esteem. for instance, how can a woman believe in herself if she's hiding behind makeup? are women starving that much for acceptance? sure i guess you can say in the wild, there are animals that show bright colors to get the attention of the opposite gender, but i thought we were trying to NOT get our kids pregnant at an early age, AND i thought humans were more civilized than animals.
secondly, why do girls need to have dolls?is it just as simple as something that was passed down from mother to daughter through the centuries?
do you think that by not introducing her to that stuff that she'll grow up to be homosexual? not that its a bad thing of course.
keep in mind that im just looking for others opinions of these thoughts. you dont need to be some psychiatrist.
You bring up some interesting points, on which I must comment.
First of all, a story straight from the archives of family lore -- I am one of three daughters and my father felt (initially) much like you. So, one Christmas, when we were 3, 5, and 7, mom and dad shopped seperately. Mom gave us a each a baby doll, and dad gave us each a baseball mitt. We immediately used the baseball mitts as bonnets for our baby dolls.
I have two daughters of my own now, and they have a full arsenal of toys, from blocks to lacrosse sticks to playdough to dolls and even to makeup, no thanks to her two aunties. She plays with a little bit of everything.
She has loved baby dolls since birth almost. She nurses them, and cuddles them at night. They help her to express the nurturing side of her that clearly exists.
Now, the makeup. I am not crazy about this stuff -- I haven't worn makeup at all in my life except for the occasional wedding, and I don't brush my hair. SOmehow, though, dd is obsessed with it. But IMO, it is not due to low self esteem or trying to make yourself pretty for a man, it is almost like a live art project. Plus, a lot of the stuff tastes yummy and so she puts it on her lips as an art project that tastes yummy. Harmful? nah. Certainly not a Waldorf learning tool but as dear ol' dad used to say, "they can't all be gems." My wish is that she will tire of the makeup naturally if I don';t make a big deal about how much I dislike it. It seems to be tapering off a little now, a mere 2 months after x-mas.
So I don't think there are any grave lessons to be learned by letting her plkay with makeup -- but perhaps if I was modeling that behavior ("mommmy's gotta put her face on before we leave the house") it would be damaging long-term. Then she would be picking up on self esteem issues and the like, but she isn't getting anything but lessons in good self esteem from me (I am one of the rare women who looks in the mirror and is ASTOUNDED by the beauty she faces, many times exclaining DAMN I LOOK GOOD).
So your question. No, girls don't need dolls -- but why should they be deprived of a doll any more than a strategy game? How bout a little of eveything?
As it turns out, our daughter is totally into dolls, makeup, etc., and our son is totally into trucks, trains, and planes. Both engage in house-building play, blocks, and fast moving activities like bike riding, scooters, skiing and just running circles around the house.
Given the same toys, each child will come to vastly different play conclusions. Often our son pushes a truck around in his sisters doll stroller, and our daughter builds things like highchairs and toilets for her dolls out of wood blocks.
Since we have no tv and avoid most commerical influences, it seems that much of their play directions are completely self-directed and of their own interest, not those of stereotypes, peer pressure, or from advertisers.
DD #2 loves Barbies, dressup, crowns, you name it. Our kids don't play with make up. Just lotion.
My second dd however, loves things with wheels and can take or leave dolls - she will play dress up with her big sister but it's not really important to her. She is drawn to blocks and puzzles.
Anyway - I guess my point is everybody's different and toy choice is not always a matter something being pushed on a child.
About Nov. she only wanted to wear dresses (I wear skirts/dresses only when I absolutely have to) and the girly things started to appeal to her (she had to have the Step 2 kitchen - I got her the beige & green one that looks like a miniature kithen with the moldings & stuff, not all pink and cutesy) and she is big into My Little Pony. The only video she has ever sat and watched without moving is Strawberry Shortcake, so she's into that too. The other day I got her the first Barbie (a red headed hippie band member Barbie with musical instruments "Chelsie" from the My Generation collection) it was on clearance and came with accessories, so I figured it was worth $6 (originally $20). I noticed that she has fully articulating elbows & shoulders, smaller boobs and her waist is not as thin.
I DO plan to get her the pregnant Midge doll and her hubby (although I plan to "loose" the baby bottles or have only daddy use them). But I think 5 is a good age to actually do the whole Barbie thing since they need manual dexterity to change the clothes & stuff. (We'll see if she beggs for it at X-Mas). I really like the "Happy Family" set, I've seen grandma & grandpa out there and that is the first time that I have seen "older" Barbies (with gray hair & wrinkles). This is something that mimicks her life and allows her to roleplay nurturing activities (which I would encourage any boy to do).
When she got the My Little Pony Castle (birthday), her 4 yr old boy cousin wanted to play with it but his mom said "it was for girls" I hate that! I told him that he could play ponies too if he wanted!
I am also a tabletop roleplayer from way back. I was usually the only girl and definetly the only girl GM (D&D, VTM/WOD, my own creation I called supernatural "college" and CyberPunk). At college I ran 4 adventures a week with 4 groups. I was the only girl playing and GM's were always in demand, I got quite the reputation for the twisted, sick plot tists that people STILL talk about 8 years later! People hate to watch movies & tv with me because I can predict the plot twists "because that's how I would write it". Except for Alias, that's why I love the show, it's unpredictable to me.
I think D&D is a good place to start. Very imaginative for them, just don't get bogged down in all the rules, that comes later. With kids, I tend to recomend the goody two shoes "awfly lawfly" approach. IF the friends play make sure to talk to the parents first and explain it to them, otherwise they freak out!
I also read comic books as a teen and my heroes were women. Wonder Woman was my fave because she was super tall, looked damn good and wore flats when she fought crime (pet peeve of mine: super heroines who run in heels). Rouge, She Hulk and Phoenix were also my faves. Encourage your daughter to have strong female role models in the media. Alias, Electra, La Femme Nikita, Dark Angel all featured take no crap women.
I also like Smallville and Angel as the girls in that are pretty take charge, don't wait to be saved.
If you push too many "boy" things on her she could rebel and go in the opposite direction, so be careful. Let her develop her interests naturally. Maybe guns are not her thing but cars are. Have your hubby include her in typically "boy" activities (such as fixing the carburator - anyone remember "My Cousin Vinny"?) and be a role model. Do things that are outside the gender norms and she will take her cues from you & your wife (her example of what it is to be a woman, mother & wife).
But I have to wonder, would you encourage a boy to play with Barbie? Would you buy him pink Dora undies if he really liked them (I know a 3 1/2 yr old boy who loves pink & wanted Dora undies, but they are only girl undies)? Would you encourage him to play house and help your wife with "women's" chorses (cooking & cleaning). Just keep your ideals in perspective, if she was a he, would you find his interests in baby dolls and "girl" things a threat to your masculinity, would you be afrais it hakes him gay? Not to say that you wouldn't, I'm just beinging it up.
That is my litmus test for myself. It has to be a two way street to be fair.
Why not offer all the "boy" things and all the girl things and do the same for any sons you have. My girls are all really into dolls. my baby got one for Christmas and knew what to do with it without anyone showing her (she was 12 months) and the silly thing even got her first kisses Aren't thoise supposed to be for mama?
Anyway my point is things like dolls, doll houses and play kitchens, dress up, barbies (or other small dolls for roll playing - we prefer the Madeline Dolls) and yes even make up are just fine for a person, even boys. It is all about trying out different rolls, being creative, and expressing yourself. personally I think makeup is more appropriate on a 4 year old than a 14 year old but that is just opinion. For them it is just fun decoration with no string attached. They use there face because that is where soeone told them it goes but really my kids are just as happy to have it on thier hands, bellies and legs :LOL They are also really fond of hair dye preferable pink
i wear it for special occasion but they also know I am total comfortable without it. It is just something I do for fun.
As for trying to direct thier intrest good luck. My children seem to be hard wired for what they think is fun. My middle child can make a family out of anything. Potatoe chips, hotwheels, cuisenaire rods, barretts, you name it. If there is a big one and a little one and a middle one you have a papa bear, mama bear and baby bear.
let loose. Have fun. by all means teach her all the things you want to teach her but don't limit her to those. what makes you think those things are more valuble than playing family or painting your belly red?
The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it. We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.
i was raised by both parents and my dad did all the "gender neutral" (if not male-gender biased) stuff and i LOVED it. but i must admit that i would still have done (and did) all the "girly" things also. it is in our natures to do things "assigned" to our genders.
in order to become "good" adults, i personally think it is very important to have a good understanding of nurturing, especially, (sexist though it may be to say) in girls. we (females) are the (possible) future mothers of every generation and this so named "attached" parenting that many of us espouse is what makes our children decent human beings as adults left in charge of the world. however we interpret that in our parenting is up to us, so long as we raise a woman (or a man!) who will be capable of doing a decent job rasing the next generation. if it means teaching her reverence and grace through the respect of firearms, that is the way it shall be for your daughter and thus your family.
whatever you do, please do not teach her that being a well-rounded adult woman means that she should not embrace her femininity. it is who she is. star athlete, sharpshooter, skilled carpenter, or what have you, she is a woman and should she become a mother, that femininity will be critical to her and her child. even if she does not become a mother, it is her place in this world to be part of the feminine energy that balances the masculine of the world. a woman who excels in stereotypically male roles but forgets that she is a woman is no woman at all. she is a confused, misguided human soul, lost to all of us, most of all herself.
best of luck! trust your instincts! -Kate
I agree that many toys are too commercial, and perhaps one doesn't need the branded stuff. My own childhood was filled with stuffed animals, dolls and I longed for a cabbage patch kid. Only to find out that once i had it I really liked my bears much better.
So IMO a doll with a sling can be a great thing for a kid to play with.
My girls do have Barbies, dolls, kitchen stuff, make-up (but they can't wear it out of the house...washes off easy), and dress-up stuff. They don't always play with them. They rather play outside riding bikes and climbing the rope (oldest DD got 1st place in rope climbing in school), and doing "boy" stuff.
DD, when she was three, got into pink BIG TIME...I don't get it. Conversely, while she wants to look like the princess/girly girl...which trust me, she does.
She searches for dew worms all summer long, fishes, climbs trees and rocks, does not STOP, knows no fear....
In this sense she reminds me of me as a girl. I don't know that I ever wanted to wear makeup/high heels at her age....but I'm thinking, nobody modelled that behavior for her, and she took to it anyway...
Not sure what my point is...I guess, even if you don't model or encourage the girly stuff, don't be mortified, if she asks you for that kind of thing....
We had a variety of toys growing up as well. Four girls in my family, no boys. Along with sis's Barbie collection (homemade furniture, clothing) we had trucks, blocks that our stepdad made, legos, bikes, balls, badminton net & game, baseball equipment, trains, racecars, etc. We played with all of them, during the summer we played in the pool with pool toys & our outdoor sports games. The most outstanding thing, thinking back, was the lack of Name Brand toys (characters, etc) & not getting every fad toy & everything on our list... it really helped us to not be spoiled I think. My sis's feel the same.
One of us is in the military & never wears make-up. Not a girly-girl, but she has a daughter whom she raises with mostly "boy" toys & the daughter is the girly-est girl ever! She loves boas, dresses, doing people's hair, etc.
Another is a fashion buyer for a major department store, but not too girly.
Another is a events manager for a large hotel chain, pretty girly with minimal but present self-esteeem struggles, she's the youngest & had a tough time in her teen yrs (all of us had left for college & life & she was stuck in the house alone with our fighting, then divorcing parents)
I'm an artist & don't wear make-up & my socks rarely match... & I don't mind. I am a secure person but had self-esteem issues during highschool due to a perverted uncle & rape. I think I'm over that for the most part. I've forgiven & won't forget.
Overall, I believe that way more than toy choices, what your daughter views in the world around her & how it's explained will have the most profound effects. Communication is huge in keeping kids above their self-esteem struggles - my opinion.
Best of luck good Dad!
My daughter has dolls, sometimes she chooses them to mommy - sometimes she chooses her hammer. What is important to note is YOUR response to what your child chooses.
Second thought, Have you ever heard of the book Free To Be You and Me? A look at our goofy culture through childrens eyes, and a good message about allowing our children to experience life across gender lines. Boys havin'dolls to love, girls learning they can be whatever they want to be.
its nice to hear other peoples thoughts, and it gives me more to think about im sure we'll be safe as long as its not something thats gonna hurt her. as it is, i remember what it was like growing up. i liked going against everything my parents were. so i guess she's going to work for a big corporation, drilling for oil in alaska, drenched in tammy fae makeup. we'll always love her no matter what choices she makes, as long as she knows consequences for some things.
D and D is GREAT imagination expander and i cant wait to introduce her to that as she gets older. of course im not going to push it on to her, but just introduce. and if she doesnt like it. oh well. i actually plan on opening my own gaming store some day.
I had to answer this one.
I was introduced to makeup at a very early age by watching my mother apply it every morning (6-7 a.m. was a default mother daughter tme). She would pretend to also apply some to me, she would hand me down her old compacts and stuff. I had dress up clothes (from various dance classes I took for 14 years of life). Every girly-girl item a true girly-girl could want, I had minus the expensive houses, tables, chairs and other things any child is capable of imagining.
I have an older brother who was rather athletic, and I wanted to be like him. So I also played soccer, kickball and basketball with the neighborhood guys, learned to do wheelies and skateboard 180's like my brother and just otherwise scraped my elbows and skinned my knees often enough that I always have a 1st aid kit on hand since I became a mother.
My father was against me doing anything real boyish, like fixing a car, until I brought up the fact that I would be driving by myself some day. I was nine and told him that I would have to rely on a stranger to help me fix a flat tire. He was in shock for a moment at the thought, then proceeded to teach my how to change oil. I know how to do all the basics on my car and do them regularly myself.
A few years later I told my father that I wanted to go hiking, something he hadn't done for years and never with my brother. He and I have gone on several weekend and a few week long trips. He goes out regularly with groups who enjoy the backcountry. When my son is older, I will join in that again.
I am a girly-girl, I am a tom-boy, I am a woman, a mother, a wife, I am human.
With all the girly-girl stuff I had as a child, I was able to define for myself what being a female is and is not. I was also able to define what a masculine side to my femaleness should be and I was confident enough to demand it at an early age.
But, I think what really happened is, my father, being a stage director, did my makeup for my 14 years of recitals. He taught me how to sew by hand. He made dinner almost every night of my upbringing. He was not afraid to cross the stereotypical lines and neither was my mother. I believe that, more than anything, builds the confidence in youngsters to balk at stereotypes and refuse to acknowledge outdated boundaries.
Just another story,
|i liked going against everything my parents were. so i guess she's going to work for a big corporation, drilling for oil in alaska, drenched in tammy fae makeup. we'll always love her no matter what choices she makes, as long as she knows consequences for some things.|
edited because initially my little face was wrong.:LOL
... meaning ... if she wants a Barbie set, okay. if she wants some Legos or construction set or electronics hobby kit ... okay. i just found that my wife's 5 year old Palm has given up the ghost after Lillian had been using it for a week (she wsn't the cause of the failure). Lillie's only 16 months, and she'd already figured out how to remove the stylus and tap the screen in the right place (from watching Daddy with his Pocket PC). if she really wants a new PDA, okay.
no limits. my daughter can be a jet pilot, ambassador, mathematician, a supermodel, or a pro volleyball player. it's up to her. i won't limit her imagination by limiting her choice of toys.
She also likes to dig in the sand and get dirty with her brother, and she loves cars and trucks.
kurosch - proud DH and DF of scorpios
I can't even begin to understand it. The lab didn't stay airtight and all sorts of nuttiness has leaked in contaminating our well-intentioned experiment in human-conditioning. non-girly and girly things alike have gotten into her life despite the "directors" best efforts. She'll get to work it all out in therapy later... just keep puttin' coins into the tzedekah box.... I keep hoping surfing will help her maintain her identity-distance from mass culture, Aikido will keep her protected and body aware in a healthy way, and mothering her dolls will help her be a good mom/aunt if she wishes to be someday. All the rest, who knows...
we have a very girly girl (5 yrs), it's just who she is. dh is still deturmined to teach her the joys of fisning, hunting, sports, ect. i don't forsee a problem with that, he'll just have to make it "pretty" ie :LOL barbie fishing pole and tackle box and camping gear, pink/purple camoflage instead of orange :LOL ect. it's all about compromise and combining interests. just this past weekend we introduced worms to her which at first was all and squeels, then I let her pet and hold it :LOL then she named it: poor dh was in saying "now she'll never fish with a worm" then she said, "WELL ok *sigh* just ONE dad if I get to use a Barbie fishing pole and Andrew stays home, just you and me" : you tell me he won't jump on that one both get their own way and once she finds it's fun to go fising with daddy it won't be so difficult.
BTW, I was a girl that wasn't into the girly things, give me some tonka toys and dirt, a few trees to climb or woods to explore I was happy as a clam.
OH and it does go both ways tea parties are fun too as long as you drink Earl Gray or Green Tea and chocolate cookies :
Our oldest two are boys, our youngest is a girl. I do not wear makeup, nor am I a girly girl. We have TONS of toys in our house, including our collection of baby dolls and slings, used by both my daughter and my sons. IMO they go right along with all the other stuff in the dress-up / imaginative play bin - cowboy boots, a princess headpiece, ties, a stethescope, miscellaneous hats, a dog on a leash, dress up clothes, etc. They allow my children to pretend to be whatever they want to be. The other day one of my boys was using a sling (baby carrier) as a quiver for the arrows he made from kid kinnex and my daughter was carrying a baby around wrapped in a cowboy hat.
Growing up the youngest of two girls, I was constantly at my neighbor's house playing with his star wars action figures and gi joes. We didn't have many "boy" toys in our house...just the occasional matchbox car. I also enjoyed playing with my strawberry shortcakes and barbies.
We expose our children to a full spectrum of playthings and experiences. They, ultimately, are the ones who decide who they are and what they like and don't like. As proven over and over in my household ...if they don't like it, they won't play with it ...if they do like it, they will play with it, although not always in the manner intended. :LOL
Mama to A (12), Z (11), H (9), C (5), A (3) and 4 angels.
|Originally posted by oliviagoddess
She absolutely LOVES horses and this comes out of nowhere. We don't have them, but she is totally into them, so it must be instinctual!
That said, I wanted to comment about the makeup/Barbie thing: I loved my Barbies as a kid, played with them until I was probably 13 or so, and I have saved many of them for my daughter in case she likes that sort of toys. I also had one of those big plastic Barbie heads that you could put makeup on, and fix her hair, etc. So I was really quite "girly" in that respect. I also loved dressing paper dolls, the girly-er the better.
But now, as a person, I don't put a great deal of emphasis on my looks. I dress very casually even for work (pullover shirt, khakis, sandals or clogs), and though I do wear a small amount of makeup, I rarely look "made up." So I'm not sure that the interests we have as children will translate into attitudes or behaviors as adults. As a teen I was into fashion magazines and used to wish I had lots of money to buy cool clothes, but ultimately I lost interest. My mom and sisters didn't emphasize clothing or makeup, and that was a stronger influence on me, I think, than any toys I played with or interests I had as a kid.
That said, I also had a toy pistol, lots of toy cars (I kept those for my daughter, too!), building toys, and Star Wars action figures and ships, etc. So I wasn't entirely girly!
And just for my HO, I think whether a person is gay or not is built into the person at birth, and is not influenced by outside factors like toys. Possibly the way they play with toys can be an indicator, but we know that isn't always the case!
|Originally posted by andy3000
I really like the idea of those dolls that are made of fiber that you can't tell what they are, they could be man, woman, baby, gremlin, it's completly for her to freely choose using her imagination.
Right on with the Linux thing!