anyway i could keep ranting and so forth but i just wanted to state that, and wanted to hear if anyone else hasnt done it and would like to hear their story. most of the catholics i know arent true to their religion. they can do all the bad things they want and just say" god forgives all". now if there IS a god wouldnt it know that people are thinking of that ahead of when they do something or say something bad? and if jesus DID die for our sins why do we have to baptise? if according to the catholic church homosexuals are doing the human race an injustice because in the bible it comments that humans are ment to
We decided when we had our first that it kinda seemed ludicrous since, although we believe in a god and a lot of other naturally occuring powers above and beyond us, since we arent affiliated with any denomination and arent practicing anything but humanism, well, it seemed like just one of those things that sometimes people/parents do because they think they're supposed to and thats that.
no-one ever questioned it though in our family. so, i really cant relate if it's the family that might raise concern. but really i think that as a natural parent it's a great way for you to personally make a statedment FOR YOURSELF that you wont be pulled into the stream.
I say kudos!
but when he figured that we were just going along with her to make her happy, he said he wouldn't do it (which actually raised my level of respect for him significantly). he said it wasn't so much saving the baby's soul, as a promise by the parents to raise the child in the faith.
which, obviously, we were not going to do. so, if you have no intention of doing that, then don't do it.
however, i am not a catholic and have no history with that faith, so perhaps you should consult with a member of that clergy and see what he has to say.
We were a little slow on the draw and ended up with one baptism celebration for both our (at the time) 3yo daughter and sub-year son. We both believe in baptism (me Catholic, wife Lutheran (sounds like Tarzan, eh?)), anyway, and since my Catholicness is more me while DW's Lutheranism is more family and tradition, we chose the Catholic direction (although the differences are rather few).
I believe that parents are free to make the choices they see fit for their children based upon their beliefs. Our path is rather zig-zagy, but essentially in the same direction as the Church. In fact during our Catholic-based pre-marrage course and 'test', DW and I scored a perfect in our child rearing beliefs-that's 100 percent in agreement with each other and with the Catholic Church. However we were in the toilet on some other areas (but that's another story).
To make a long story short, we decided, that it wouldn't do much harm to have a baptism. We though, well, it's nice to recognize the baby and this is the way our families have done it for centuries.
BAD idea. Let's just say, the night before the baptism, with all the godparents present, I freaked. I decided it was wrong to commit a child before they had an idea. I was so stress about it. It was bad.
We ended doing it the next day (people had flown from all over for this), but I still don't feel good about it.
I say stick to your feelings. I sure wish I had.
Not to open a huge religious debate....just to answer your original question.
I am of the belief that children are innocent before God until they reach an age where they can be more accountable for their choices. Also, when they are being baptized, they are a joining a church, a decision that some feel they should be able to make themselves.
In my church children are blessed as babies, and put on the records of the church as a child of a church member. When they are older, but at least eight, they are invited to join the church by baptism.
As for your question on the necessity of baptism...The Bible teaches that Jesus suffered for sins, but I have never read anywhere where we are absolved of any personal responsibility for our actions. Why would there be a judgement? So we are taught that there are certain things we should do. One is baptism. Similar to getting married, we make promises and commitments that, if kept, will be rewarding to us.
I agree with your frustration about premeditated sinning. Unfortunately I have never met a "finished product" as far as religion goes. Regardless of our beliefs we are all at different stages on our path.
Anyway...no our children aren't baptized, but when they are eight, they will have the opportunity if they choose.
disclaimer: these views are from G-Dawgs DH.
They have played a great role in helping me help my son. We have continued the talks about the role of religion for ds. That part of it's been great!
This is an interesting thread!
We declined to have sponsors/godparents because they were not required (liberal Lutheran) and because those persons who would be likely candidates (my sister) would take it to mean some kind of custodial arrangement should something happen to us.
The only part I regret is having to lie in a church about holding particular beliefs which I don't personally hold. But on the whole, I think it turned out very well.
Mind you, my in-laws do this to all of their children, who range in age from 36 to 42!
I was raised in the Lutheran church, but am now a Pagan. My in-laws will hopefully never know this! I'm "out" to my family and friends, but mostly still in the "broom closet". I'm proud of my beliefs, and am raising my daughters to know the pagan/Earth/nature ways (even thought they were both baptized Lutheran), but if they want to explore other religions, that's fine. I want them to find their own path eventually.
This being said, my DH and I were married in the Catholic church, mainly to make him and my in-laws happy. We're expecting a son in April, and he'll be christened in the Catholic church, mostly to make my in-laws happy. As for me, I wouldn't have any kind of ceremony except maybe a pagan blessing/naming ceremony, but that's something I'll do in private. But if it makes the family happy and my husband less stressed to have a Catholic christening, it's fine with me. I hope that doesn't make me hypocritical!
I did let my husband know that he'd have to do all of the legwork in order to make that happen, because I know the Catholics are strict about the sacraments. I also let him know that if he wanted to take our son to church, etc., he could, but that I wouldn't be going.
I was not baptised and I don't feel hell-bound!
My feelings are that dh and I would never do anything like that for our parents' sake. They had their kids and got to make religious decisions for them. They do not get to make those decisions for my kids, period.
We did eventually get the kids baptized, when the oldest was five. She was baptized in our Methodist church, which freaked my father out a bit, but he managed to sit through it OK.
He's calmed down about it since, hasn't brought it up since ds's birth.
How can I promise that for my dd if hubby and I don't even know where we are spiritually yet?
We are more humanists, than anything. And we didn't feel comfortable making a promise we probably wouldn't keep by baptizing, especially when that promise is about something so complicated and ever-changing as our spirituality.
I was raised catholic even went to parachial school .then after parents divorced was "converted" to protestant..and then I became wiccan after I turned 18,and I am still not sure what I want spiritually..so I think it is completely and totally up to my son to make his own choice, so in short ..no we didn't baptize and in retrospect I am very proud of my decision.
we wouldnt ever baptize our kiddo. not our place to do it. my inlaws are big on it, my family couldnt care less. it sucks all those extra savings bonds we are missing out on (of course, as long as the government doesnt fall before we can cash in)
we got through the initial pregnancy and baby stage without much whining from inlaws, but i do check her head when i go over there to get her to be sure it isnt damp:LOL
The ritual, however, was important to me. Religion aside, baptisms serve as a means to welcome little ones into the community, recognize them as individuals, and celebrate them. So we invited our closest family and friends, and had a 'Welcoming Ceremony' under the tree in my parents' backyard when Noah was 3 weeks old. We had our parents and our son's godparents (for lack of a better term) read relevant poems (Walt Whitman, Ojibway prayer, Kahlil Gibran) that we found. We asked the guests to all bring a wish for our son on a piece of paper; the wishes were read to him, and then burned so the intentions were symbolically released to the universe/god. We also had everyone bring a unique bead for Noah, and I've since incorporated them into a dream catcher for him which hangs over his crib. Then we all ate, and drank, and talked, and laughed, and cooed over our beautiful guest of honour.
It was a beautiful and appropriate way for us to welcome Noah to the world, and into our circle of family and friends. Even my devoutly Catholic father thought so; and since the ceremony, my parents have found a gorgeous carving of a native mama and her papoose which will sit under that tree with Noah's name on the bottom - and the name of all future additions to the family.
however I don't believe in infant babptism (I feel it is something done as an outward symbol of inside washing) but my mom was upset that we didn't have it done. Oh well. Our church does dedication. It differes by church but my friends even did a private one and made it all thier own. I think a lot people view it a social thing (sorry, tired, sick, brain fog). I mean everyone is invited, there are gifts, you name godparents (even though I rarely see godparents do anything anymore) you eat, baby is welcomed into a spiritual coimmunity. At dedications generally the parent commit to raise thier children in the fait, people pary for them and the baby and they are welcomed into a spiritual community. Food, rarely presents often guests. And both offer momentoes for the baby book.
Is there some sort of official welcoming ceremony in a neutral place where you could invite the fam, have some chow and bless the wee one? Is there a way you would be comfotable doing that?
just a side note, we have a lot of excatholics at our church and thier families usually have a hard time with the whole baptism thing. Godparents can come up and stand, christening gowns can be worn, whatever makes them happy. The pastor said once "I even spit when I talk and if you need to cal that sprinkeling be my guest" :LOL
The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it. We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.
My mil wasn't very happy about it at first since she is Catholic and dh was baptized Catholic. She would have been even more unhappy about it if dh wanted to and I didn't, but since dh is the one who doesn't want to, she is handling it fine. It would have seemed wrong to us to baptize them just for tradition's sake when we don't really believe. We would have had to lie to the church, something neither of us was willing to do.
|Originally posted by zevulon
You're assuming we're all Christians out here.
So what I am getting at is DH and I are going to educate our kids on the various faiths and let them decide when they are older what they want to do. In the meantime, we will provide them w/ all the resources to learn about other faiths.
I am American Baptist and the American Baptist Church believe that infant baptism is unbiblical and should not be done. In our Chruch we have a dedication were the parents dedicate themselves to raise the child in a christian home and the Church membership dedicates itself to helping the parents raise the child in a Christian manor. DH and the inlaws are all Luthrans and Catholics but are ok with the dedication. I did tell DH I would not like it but he could get DS baptisted if it was really important to him but in order to do this he would have to do all the leg work. All he had to do was go to service twice and go to 2 bible studies. Didn't happen, when DH does go to church it is with DS and I at the American Baptist Church. (DS and I go more often then DH.)
Celebrant: Dear parents and godparents: If your faith makes you ready to accept this responsibility, renew now the vows of your own baptism. Reject sin; profess your faith in Christ Jesus. This is the faith of the church. This is the faith in which these children are about to be baptized.
Celebrant: Do you believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was born of the Virgin Mary, was crucified, died, and was buried, rose from the dead, and is now seated at the right hand of the Father?
Parents and godparents: I do.
Celebrant: Do you believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting?
Parents and godparents: I do.
Celebrant: This is our faith. This is the faith of the Church. We are proud to profess it, in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Our DD's baptism was one of the greatest days of my life. It wasn't because she wore a beautiful dress, or because we had a party, or because it made my mom happy. It was because our little girl was "born again," cleansed of original sin, forever changed through the power of the sacrament. She became a member of the Catholic Church, which is our spiritual family.
That said, I have a lot of respect for those of you who've chosen not to baptize your DC because you don't agree with the above statements. If you want to welcome your child with a naming ceremony, or a dedication, or just skip the whole business altogether, that's up to you. It's about integrity, being true to what you believe.
I know how tough it can be to go against your parents' wishes. It just really bums me out to think of people saying "I do" with their fingers crossed...in front of family, friends, and their newborn baby...and in a church, of all places.