Dads, need your help with circumcision advice - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 62 Old 08-16-2004, 02:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I would just like to get some male points of view here about circumcision.
My husband is for it, and I am kind of against, but still a little on the fence.
My father was just recently circumcised 5 years ago, and I have known quite a few men and boys that have had to get the procedure done. He has very strong views for circumcision, meaning that left intact it smelt bad and caused some pain. An old boyfriend in college had to have it done when he was 19, for the same reasons.
Just wanted to get some male input on the subject, since I don't have a penis, and will never know what the problems that go along with having a foreskin or not entails.
If you feel uncomfortable chatting about this, please PM me, I just want some good feedback, thanks

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#2 of 62 Old 08-16-2004, 02:25 PM
 
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I wasn't sure what I'd do when I came face to face with the decision ... and i've had to make it 3 times! i've known men that had no circ and circ'd so i've heard both sides of the story... i basically left the decision up to my dh ... he knew what it was like and he made the final decision .. i gave him literature on the pros and cons and we talked about it .. it's just such a strange thing
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#3 of 62 Old 08-16-2004, 02:44 PM
 
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Posted a cross-link to this thread in the Case Against Circumcision forum.
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#4 of 62 Old 08-16-2004, 03:24 PM
 
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Why don't you let your son decide for himself? It's his body. If he ever has problems with his foreskin like your adult father and adult friend have had (which is actually quite rare) then he can make the decision himself (assuming he's an adult).

The foreskin if left alone and not interfered with (i.e. no premature retraction to wash under it) does not give the vast majority of men in the world any problems (80% of the world's men are intact). There is no good reason to cut it off at the infant stage on the very slim chance that it might have to happen later in life.

Think about it this way - if your mother had had repeated yeast infections and decided to get her labia cut off as an adult, would you have wanted her to cut off yours as a baby on the off chance you might have the same problems later?

That's actually not the world's best analogy, because the foreskin is 80% of the penis' skin system and 50% of its erogenous tissue. But I think you'll understand my point.

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#5 of 62 Old 08-16-2004, 05:38 PM
 
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Why would any man want his infant son's penis ripped apart and cut in an excrutiatingly painful way, I will never understand. It's totally barbaric; America sure is a strange country.
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#6 of 62 Old 08-16-2004, 05:57 PM
 
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My husband would never get on here and post this, so I'm posting it for him. He is circed. He has some sexual complications from the circ. It is very painful for him to withdrawl his penis after having sex. It is also very painful for him to pee after sex. I mean it is excruciating. He has always known this is a result of circ. I recently read that the peeing after sex is a very common complication of circ. We were talking about it the other night and we were both in tears. We can't believe that people make this decision for their children. There was no way that we would've even considered circing our son.
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#7 of 62 Old 08-16-2004, 06:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feebeeglee
Posted a cross-link to this thread in the Case Aginst Circumcision forum.
I think maybe she posted here to get insight from dad's in general, rather than from those who frequent the case against circumcision forum, which only supports one POV on this issue.
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#8 of 62 Old 08-16-2004, 09:02 PM
 
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Well, I'll post for my dh since he doesn't post here. He too has had problems from his circ:
1) his penis bows to the right when erect because so much skin was removed during circumcision;

2) there are hairs pulled up onto the shaft when he is erect, which causes me irritation -- again this is because they didn't leave him enough skin;

3) he has had problems at various times with premature ejaculation and impotence, both of which occur at higher rates in circumcised men; and

4) we both have problems with dryness and have to use lubrication during intercourse (the circumcised penis acts as a one-way valve to pull moisture out of the vagina, so again vaginal dryness is more common in partners of circumcised men).

His circumcision is extremely tight and I believe his erection would be longer if he had sufficient skin for it.

Even if my dh hadn't had sexual problems as a direct result of his circumcision, I reject the argument that the man should decide this issue because he has the penis. If he has been circumcised his entire life then he has no idea what the foreskin is, what it does, and what it feels like. It would be like asking a lifelong deaf person to decide whether his baby should be hearing or deaf - he simply doesn't have a basis for comparison.

As my son's mother my first job is to protect him from anyone and everyone who might hurt him, and that includes his father. As the partner of someone who has had lifelong sexual problems from circumcision I feel well-qualified to speak to the harms it causes. As a human rights advocate it is my place to speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves.

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#9 of 62 Old 08-17-2004, 01:24 AM
 
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My DH was initially for it - because that's just what you do, right? I mean, of course we'd circ...
As soon as he found out that it hurts the baby and has no medical benefit, he changed his mind.

Here's an article that may help you talk to your DH.
http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

BTW..if you're unsure, just delay it. You can always circ later but can't un-circ. Anyhow, babies are more sensitive to pain at birth than when they're older, and if your DS has any issues like eczema or heart murmurs or whatever that pose risks when circing, you'll have more time to know about them. Any other surgery on babies is delayed as long as possible so the baby can build an immune system and so any contraindications will be known.
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#10 of 62 Old 08-17-2004, 06:15 AM
 
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Intact men in the last 50 years in America have had to put up with some absolutely awful discrimination. I say *had to* because this is rapidly changing and now almost 50% of boys are left intact and those awful attitudes are quickly becoming a thing of the past. I firmly believe that this discrimination is the true reason for many of the "necessary" circumcisions.

Consider that many people who have never even seen an intact penis will say that they are dirty, smelly, nasty and just downright ugly. They will say this to a man when they have no idea whether he is circumcised or intact. Imagine how this makes this man feel!

To give a close analogy . . . Imagine a woman had a mastectomy and was with a group of people who were talking about how horrible women looked that had this procedure and how thoroughly disgusting it was and how they just looked so abnormal that it was sickening. Then imagine that they also said that women who had mastectomies were nasty and smelly and were likely to spread disease to their partners. This woman would be so traumatized that she likely would avoid all contact with men and would absolutely avoid any possibility that someone could discover she was the victim of breast cancer.

In this situation, the women would seek reconstructive surgery so she wouldn't be ostracized from society. In reality, the person saying those things would be sternly criticized and rightly so. However, people can say the same kinds of things about an intact man to his face and all of the rest will join the "Uh Huh Squad" in personally insulting him and the expected reaction is for him to accept this verbal punishment. Of course, he will be just like the woman who will not stand up for herself and will submit himself to the surgery. However, if he does have a circumcision, he is regarded as being narcisistic which is also not acceptable so the story is changed to be a *necessary* circumcision. Soicety has given him little other choice.

This is all changing with the generation being born today. They will say "to hell with society and their perverted norms. I want alll of the sexuality I was born with! It was my body and nobody had any business messing with it." This is a scenario that will play itself out in many families begining in just a few years. Actually, it has already started. I know a 15 year old that has had major problems with his parents because they circumcised him. It has literally torn the family apart and it is not what you would think. They steadfastly stick to the opinion that it was their choice and he had no rights to his body and that it is not important and that he needs psychological counseling. This has been going on for well over a year. If they had addressed his concerns and just admitted that they didn't know and that they were sorry they had violated his body, the waters would have calmed fairly quickly.

The fact is that the natural male organ is no dirtier than the natural female organ, is less problematic than the female organ and is no uglier than the female organ. There is also the fact that it is a needless and non-beneficial procedure that causes far more problems that it could possibly prevent and it is a voilation of a man's rights to the sanctity of his body and sexuality. Luckily for parents now, there is the vast powers of the internet to access truthful information that has been carefully hidden by the medical profession. Just as that information is easily accessible to you, it will be accessible to your sons. This has also become a very contentious issue and there is a flood of information in the media as they are begining to catch on. It will only increase in the future and it will become impossible to avoid it.

Currently in the media is the normal debate about the issue but there are also other items including the man who sued his circumciser and won, the Supreme Court case in N. Dakota where the Chief Justice has indicated that the boys civil rights have been violated, the recent death of the boy in British Columbia, the recent death of circumcision accident victim David Reimer and the very strong statements against circumcision by the CPS. The 13 states that have defunded Medicaid funding for the procedure has also made the news in the last several years. NOT in the news is the boy who died in Utah early last year and the boy in Florida who is currently comatose battling an infection from his circumsion. If he dies, there may or may not be a news report on it. The numerous circumcision deaths that happen here every year are usually carefully hidden from public view. The doctors do not want it publically known about the deaths and the parents also don't want it on the news media that their son died from a surgery that was done for purely cosmetic purposes and had no health benefit.

Is the natural male organ male organ problematical and is circumcision almost inevitable at some point in the man's life? Well, only in America. Detailed records have been kept for years in Scandanavia and those records indicate that at most, about 6 men per 100,000 men may need a circumcision at some point in their life. So why do we hear of so many circumcisions in America? Well, first there are the issues noted above that clearly not medical. The other reason is that in the past, so many men have been circumcised at birth in the last 50 years that many doctors have never seen a complete natural man and thus, they have not taken the time and effort to learn to treat them. I have been advising on this issue for several years and have had 30 or more mothers report that their doctor has recommended a circumcision or even insisted on it. In every single case, the boy was absolutely normal and only in two cases was there an actual infection which were both resolved in a matter of days with medication only. In one of those cases, it appears that the doctor was intentionally not giving medication to make a circumcision eventually necessary and in the other, it appears that the doctor did not know how to diagnose the problem. The most frequent diagnosis is "tight foreskin" or phimosis and 99%+ of the time, this diagnosis is wrong. Even though there have been numerous studies that show the contrary, one writer wrote that all boys should have retractile foreskins by age three and that seems to be the only one anybody reads. It is absolutely wrong and is the cause of the vast majority of post natal circumcisions.

Is an intact man naturally dirty? No, no more so than a woman. The hygiene issues are exactly the same. Any genital secretions and odors are essentially the same in quantity and quality for a man as for a woman. Daily bathing will easily take care of them for a man just as they will for a woman. The only difference in hygiene for an intact man is that he will grasp his foreskin between his finger and thumb and pull it back. From that point on, there is absolutely no difference, period.




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#11 of 62 Old 08-17-2004, 06:47 AM
 
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left intact it smelt bad and caused some pain
I have never heard this (except from people arguing against circumcision). My partner is in tact and have never ever noticed a funny smell and he has never had problems with painful foreskin/ erection/ etc. And lemme tell ya, I dunno if this is just him, but he is so much more sensetive than the few circ'ed men I had been with in the olden days. My touch goes miles further. It's nice.

ETA: I know you were looking for advice from dads, but I hope my advice was at least a little helpful

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#12 of 62 Old 08-17-2004, 02:25 PM
 
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I am an intact male. It is not painful. I do not believe it smells, nor does DW.

Growing up I had always believed intact was 'standard issue', and that circ'ing was the minority - something practiced by only a few religious groups. I was quite surprised, as highschool progressed, to hear that several of my friends were circ'ed.

My father, brother, and son are intact as well, and have not had any problems with their penises. I haven't asked, but with our Scandinavian background, odds are good my grandfathers were intact as well.

I'm happy with my penis. It's worked great my whole life. Why should it need to be surgically modified?
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#13 of 62 Old 08-18-2004, 12:38 AM
 
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OK I'm not a guy but have a guy story to share.

A friend's grandfather asked her if her son had been circumcised. When she answered no he replied "Good for you. I could never understand why a father would want to do that to their child."
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#14 of 62 Old 08-18-2004, 10:17 PM
 
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Hi, I'm Mama2Xander's DH,

I'm circ'ed, and personally have no problems, also we don't really like the look of a uncirc'ed penis (probably more just what we grew up with/used to). I'm glad I am circ'ed but I can't justify doing it to our ds. He can make the decision to circ. when he grows up if he wants, and I doubt he will. I think it is a matter of respect to not circ. If I had had my ears cut off or been given a tattoo or something as a baby I might not like that so much. It is a pretty random thing to do, weird to many, and totally unnecessary 99% of the time, so why do it? It is not funded in Canada and when last tallied only 17% of Canadian babies were being circ'ed. FYI
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#15 of 62 Old 09-08-2004, 12:45 AM
 
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my intention is not to incite anybody's rage, simply to provide another POV.

my husband is circ'ed and has never had any problems, though he does have a small scar, but it does not interfere with the function of his penis. we had our son circ'ed (for our own reasons, which I will not go into here because I don't feel I should have to explain myself), however, we asked that the doctor perform a 'traditional' or 'loose' circumcision, which leaves a good portion of the foreskin, as opposed to a 'tight' circumcision, which is the type that leaves minimal to no foreskin at all and usually causes problems with erections, sexual function, etc.

my son's ped. is actually not pro-circ, and told us beforehand that the procedure is not medically necessary and no longer indicated for male infants. i asked what his personal belief was, as a father and a pedi., and he said that in his opinion (not mine, mind you), the pros and cons equal each other out, and while it is not medically necessary, in the end, it comes down to your own personal and religious beliefs.

IF you do decide to circ, i would recommend asking for a loose circumcision. if you have any questions for me, please feel free to PM me.

PS - please, i know everyone here has their own beliefs on this subject, and i totally respect that. i'm not trying to suggest that circumcision is right. i'm simply speaking from my own experience, and trying to provide a different POV. i know many of you reading this might not agree with me, but please don't attack me because of my personal and religious beliefs. thank you!

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#16 of 62 Old 09-13-2004, 03:34 PM
 
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My dS is not cut. My dH is. We took the Bradley childbirth classes and they are all about informed consent and informed refusal. We felt after some research that; son could not agree to it. Might have caused him pain that might interfere with bonding. Might have an affect on his later sex life.
At eight years old he looks fine, never smells bad and never has had any penile trouble. He does feel a bit sorry for cut boys but keeps it to himself.(like the santa thing)
My in-laws were horrified because they are Jewish, but it's not their kid is it? Here in large metropolitian area the rates are running pretty close to half, so my son will and has encountered penises of both types. As to the "looking like dad arguement", that's just silly. Your little boy will look different from his dad because of the size difference and pubic hair anyway.
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#17 of 62 Old 09-14-2004, 11:21 PM
 
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I live in New England too, ella. The circ rate is around 38%, so intact boys born in the last 3 or so years are the clear majority. There will be no "locker room" teasing for intact boys--indeed, it might be the other way around, with cut boys bearing the brunt of jibes.

My DH is circ'd--and so is our first son, who is almost 6. The first 11 days after his circ were AWFUL--he cried every time he peed, because it's salt water on an open wound. It interfered with his newborn sleep and made him very agitated.

When we had our second child 3 years later, we did a lot of researching into circumcision. In the end, we left ds2 intact. It was easy, there was no crying, and we figure ds2 can decide for himself, when he's a grown man, to have it done if he'd like to.

If you don't circ him, it's something that can always be done at a later time. If you DO circ him, you can never, ever take that back.
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#18 of 62 Old 09-17-2004, 11:47 AM
 
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I don't believe in trimming dog's ears, or declawing cats, or cutting off the tails of horses or dog's. So why would I cut off a piece of my child? I believe we are made the way we are made for a reason. evolution changes living things over time, if males were meant to not have a foreskin they would eventually evovle.

I was talking to a co-worker about her son being circ' I asked how they do it.
She watched her son. He was strapped down, then without any anesthesia they cut off his foreskin. he screamed and cried. why, why do that to your child? Why put him through trauma and pain when it isn't nessecary? I mean why not just cut off his finger, or shave off the skin of his elbow??

I'm not trying to be controversial, or step on anyone's toes, this is just how i feel.

Also i have been with someone who wasn't circumsized and from a female point of view.: I liked it better. Things just fit better. Plus as has been mentioned they feel more sexual pleasure. Along with a host of other advantages that people have already covered not having anything to do with relations between two people.

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#19 of 62 Old 09-18-2004, 02:46 AM
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Being Jewish, and circumcised, I feel for the guys that have difficulties with being so. I don't have any issues with it myself, but I hear what they're saying and I sympathize despite my differening feelings.

IMO, it makes no sense to circumcise if you're not in a religious tradition that does (and even then, that's still not good enough to just do it 'cause others in the tradition do, IMO) or, there being some sort of pretty compelling spiritual reason for doing so (IMO, these are rare and few in support of circumcising, so it's deeply personal and between parents and children in the context of their tradition/lifestyle). Even in my own faith-tradition, there is a continuum of thought on the practice. I know deeply religious/spiritual fathers who have left their sons intact and had an alternative brit milah instead. I respect either choice. I circumcised my son on the eighth day (and traditional circumcision leaves 80-90% intact anyway; I held him on my lap, he didn't cry, he didn't squirm and it took all of ten seconds by a skillful Mohel. I buried the bit of his foreskin under the tree from which someday branches will be cut for his chupah, should he choose to marry). I will live with my choice and hopefully my son will thank me and not hate me for my choice (over his body; the irony is not lost on me). The anti-circ crowd might call me a barbarian, and some have; but then there are venomous wingnuts on either side.

Candidly, my only concern is with my son's feelings later. But that is of course between him and me, and not one of the anti/pro circ folks have any business in that.

My father circumcised me and I have never had any difficulties. Of course, logically speaking, how would I know? I don't know any different. My wife has no complaints. My nephews are intact and my son has no issues with them and vice versa.

The only thing about circumcision that disturbs me is that there's entirely too much bile and ad hominem savagery going around between the "sides" and it seems to me, there needs to be less taking sides (even though I agree with anti-circs who say this should not be a universal praxis). Like I said, the reasons should be pretty damned compelling and it may be that letting one's son decide when he's old enough and has been fully informed (without the bile and vitriol of either side) is a much saner choice in most situations. But always, always, it is a matter that people should soberly assess and others really ought to be a whole lot more respectful of mens' choices in this matter. One need not agree to respect a fully informed choice. Many of the posts on this thread are really pretty offensive but not surprising at all. Reminds me of the anti-abortion vitriols... very shameful, IMO.
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#20 of 62 Old 09-23-2004, 07:15 PM
 
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My dh is circ'd and is fully on board with *not* circ'ing our sons. The fact that it is no longer reccommended as a routine medical procedure by the AAP and causes undue pain to the baby was enough to convince him. There just doesn't seem to be adequete reason to do it. Our intact ds is two and so far so good, no problems at all. Our 4 yr old is circ'd because we really didn't know any better at the time. We had it done because we were too afraid not to, we were afraid he would be different from the other kids at school and the types of things that Frank was talking about in his earlier post. Good thing that things have changed, I just wish I knew that before we had him circ'd. The thing about circ'ing is that once it is done, you cannot go back and change things. If you leave him intact, there is room for him to decide to have it done later in life.

I also agree with the poster who said that if you decide to have it done, ask for a "loose" circ where they leave more skin. Your ds would be less likely to have problems with pain because of too tight skin with an erection. The only good thing I can say about ds 1's circ is that it is loose, there is plenty of leftover skin whereas my dh's is a lot tighter (but still luckily doesn't cause him any problems).
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#21 of 62 Old 09-23-2004, 08:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrunchyMamaToBe
I have never heard this (except from people arguing against circumcision). My partner is in tact and have never ever noticed a funny smell and he has never had problems with painful foreskin/ erection/ etc. And lemme tell ya, I dunno if this is just him, but he is so much more sensetive than the few circ'ed men I had been with in the olden days. My touch goes miles further. It's nice.

ETA: I know you were looking for advice from dads, but I hope my advice was at least a little helpful

She said what I was going to say EXACTLY. My dp is South American so it is more cultural to leave babies intact for his family, not sure why it's more accepted here in N.A.??
As for the smell or painful part of your OP, none of that here. & he IS actually way more sensitive than my previous circ'd boyfriends. The comment about letting him decide when he's older makes sense, considering it's a slim chance something will bother him if he's intact as a child. Also if other males in your family decided for themselves they may be able to give him the pros & cons when that time arrives... hth!

"When the external begins to define the internal, instead of the internal defining the external, one begins living as a mortal rather than as a universal being." ~ unknown
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#22 of 62 Old 09-24-2004, 08:51 PM
 
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With proper education regarding cleaning either way will be fine. The key questions involve why is it being considered (religious etc.). Research seems to indicate that there is some pain involved but there is disagreement on this.

If you circumcise I wuld use a referred moyel instead of the physician (they have more experience).

We circumcised our son (now 17 months) and I will say that we regularly received praise on the outcome of the proceedure from doctors and nurses. They all wanted to know who did it. I will also say that it was a difficult decision for me to make and many tears were shed prior to the event. Once the decision was made I was at peace and have been ever since.

The decision is for both parents to make and is unique to both of you and your son.
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#23 of 62 Old 09-24-2004, 09:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sammyrose
Research seems to indicate that there is some pain involved but there is disagreement on this.
Completely untrue. There is quite a lot of medical research to indicate that circumcision is extremely painful, as would be expected from a surgery that slices away the most sensitive part of a baby's penis. Would any woman voluntarily allow any of her clitoris to be sliced away without anesthesia under the grounds that it doesn't hurt? Of course not.

In fact, both the AMA and the AAP strongly recommend that anesthesia be used in any circumcision, although all forms of local anesthesia currently available reduce but don't eliminate pain.

http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/

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The decision is for both parents to make and is unique to both of you and your son.
I disagree. The only person with the right to decide on genital surgery with no medical indication for himself is the owner of the penis.

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#24 of 62 Old 09-24-2004, 09:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Quirky
Completely untrue. There is quite a lot of medical research to indicate that circumcision is extremely painful, as would be expected from a surgery that slices away the most sensitive part of a baby's penis. Would any woman voluntarily allow any of her clitoris to be sliced away without anesthesia under the grounds that it doesn't hurt? Of course not.

In fact, both the AMA and the AAP strongly recommend that anesthesia be used in any circumcision, although all forms of local anesthesia currently available reduce but don't eliminate pain.

http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/



I disagree. The only person with the right to decide on genital surgery with no medical indication for himself is the owner of the penis.

I simply stated that there is disagreement on the issue of pain and its management. Of course there is research indicating that pain is felt. The professionals that disagree suggest that there either is none or it is minimal and handled through standard anesthetic practices. My post is factual.

As parents we make decision regarding our children's health all the time without consulting them and this may be considered no different. I also appreciate that many parents do consider this area different because they consider it medically unnecessary. Of course then you have many parents who beleive it is medically unneccessary to vaccinate and visa versa. The point is that parents who care about their children will have honest disagreements on these issues and the law and our society provides that the parents are responsible for these difficult choices.

A bit of grace in guiding not hammering the original poster would I'm sure be appreciated. Your opinon and research to the poster is always welcome but suggesting that it is the end all is not honest. They will be the ones deciding not me or you or any one else. I in fact have no opinion on the matter as to what they should do. I simply offered that the opinons of parents and professionals vary and for many reasons.
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#25 of 62 Old 09-24-2004, 10:03 PM
 
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I simply stated that there is disagreement on the issue of pain and its management. Of course there is research indicating that pain is felt. The professionals that disagree suggest that there either is none or it is minimal and handled through standard anesthetic practices. My post is factual.
Really? Prove it. Post your sources demonstrating that research shows that there is no pain or that it is minimal.

Oh, and nice use of the passive voice - "pain is felt" as opposed to "the newborn baby feels pain."

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I in fact have no opinion on the matter as to what they should do. I simply offered that the opinons of parents and professionals vary and for many reasons.
Really? You have no interest whatsoever in justifying your decision?

Opinions vary, but facts do not. Again, come up with the research, and post it, then we can have a discussion. Otherwise hiding behind the unnamed and uncited "experts" carries no weight.

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#26 of 62 Old 09-24-2004, 10:05 PM
 
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With proper education regarding cleaning either way will be fine. The key questions involve why is it being considered (religious etc.).
I don't understand why everyone makes this big fuss about "cleaning". You are aware that cleaning procedure are exactly the same whether circ'd or intact, right?

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Research seems to indicate that there is some pain involved but there is disagreement on this.
Research doesn't "seem" to indicate that there is "some" pain involved, in fact all research that has been done has indicated that the procedure is EXTREMELY painful. One study was called off because of the extreme distress of the babies due to their pain.
In fact, studies have shown that newborn babies are actually MORE sensitive to pain and feel it more intensely than do older babies.
The neonatal period is the most painful time to circumcise, period.

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If you circumcise I wuld use a referred moyel instead of the physician (they have more experience).
And you will have no legal recourse in case of a botched job. Furthermore, mohels can't use anesthetic and are ill-equipped to deal with a complication.

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The decision is for both parents to make and is unique to both of you and your son.
The decision is for the owner of the penis to make, of which the parents are most certainly not.
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#27 of 62 Old 09-25-2004, 01:08 AM
 
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Really? Prove it. Post your sources demonstrating that research shows that there is no pain or that it is minimal.

Oh, and nice use of the passive voice - "pain is felt" as opposed to "the newborn baby feels pain."



Really? You have no interest whatsoever in justifying your decision?

Opinions vary, but facts do not. Again, come up with the research, and post it, then we can have a discussion. Otherwise hiding behind the unnamed and uncited "experts" carries no weight.
I spent many weeks going over the research before we made our decision and no longer have it. I also know that the pediatricians differ on this matter after their research review. They agree that it is unneccessary but do not agree on the degree of pain when an anethegic is used or its longevity. In addition even the research suggesting there is pain is not definitive on the level of pain. There are babies who have a wide range of responses to the proceedure. I hold no particular additional value to "experts". I mentioned "professionals" in light of evaluating the quality of the research. In almost every issue there is both poor research and higher quality research. I'm sure this is true with this issue as well.

No I do not have any interest in justifying my decision. The issue on the table is for this other couple to find their way to a decision they can feel comfortable with. My reasoning is mine and may not fit them. I do not need to justyfing my reasoning with anyone other than within my own family. At the time I felt completly free to nto have it done or have an alternative ceremony. I beleive it is possible for parents to come up with different valued ethical judgements on this issue so I do not need everyone to agree. My opinion is also based on more than scientific concerns and incorporates issues such as religious, cultural, community, peer relations, familial relations. These issues would all be weighted differently for each family.

In my individual son's case who is 17 months old he responded very well and with no indications after the proceedure showing discomfort, problems sleeping eating or anything else. He has been completely healthy, happy and does not show any signs of pain sensitivity.

All of this being said I am not suggesting that this family have the proceedure or not have it but rather they alone need to evaluate all the research and surrounding issues for themselves.
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#28 of 62 Old 09-25-2004, 02:49 AM
 
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I'm hesitant to post on this topic because I know my views and decision are unpopular here, but here goes.

After much debate, my DH and I chose to circ our DS. We chose a private doctor in our city who is also a moyel (sp?). He uses three layers of pain blockers - baby Tylenol, topical anesthetic and then two needles of anesthetic. I can honestly say my son did not seem to feel pain during his circ (I say "seem" because I am not him and can only speak to what I witnessed). He didn't exhibit any symptoms of pain after the procedure either. He healed quickly, within about three days, and didn't cry at all with any diaper changes. I was shocked by this, because I expected the worst. My midwife was very impressed by the circ and said it was the best she'd seen, what ever that means.

I would personally have chosen not to circ but this was very, very important to my husband. I spoke to every man I know and asked for his opinion and only met one who was adamantly opposed, and I respect his opinion. What struck me when I was quizzing all my male acquaintances was that none of them spoke of their circs with any negativity, nor did any of them seem to remember having it done.

A previous poster commented that only 17% of boys in Canada are circ, but this is not actually correct. Statistics are only kept on circs performed in hospitals, not in private clinics or in religious ceremonies.

Anyhoo, that was/is our experience with circumcision...good luck with your decision.
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#29 of 62 Old 09-25-2004, 03:19 AM
 
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"The decision is for both parents to make and is unique to both of you and your son."

This is such a weird lack of logic. Following on, I guess it would also be the parent's right to decide whether or not to remove a part of the baby's earlobes or finger tips?

"What struck me when I was quizzing all my male acquaintances was that none of them spoke of their circs with any negativity, nor did any of them seem to remember having it done."

If all you have ever had is a mutilated penis, what do you have to compare it to? The argument that it feels 'just fine' is ridiculous, if you've never experienced anything else. As for not remembering being strapped to a table and having a part of their genitals cut off, I can't recall much about my first weeks of life either. But I cannot imagine that the experience of circumcision would be all too pleasant. And the argument that it may not even hurt is simply laughable.

Just the thought of having my genitals cut then peeing on them brings tears to my eyes. How can anybody possibly believe that being cut anywhere on your body does not hurt?

"My midwife was very impressed by the circ and said it was the best she'd seen, what ever that means."

Hmm, something to be very proud of. To be impressed by the mutilation of a baby.

Ugh. I cannot believe what I read sometimes.
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#30 of 62 Old 09-25-2004, 10:49 AM
 
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There is a really excellent discussion about pain relief during circ going on right now:
http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...d.php?t=198109

The other thing is, I'm curious for those men who supposedly have no issues- have you done much reading on the complications- both small and large- of circ? You may find, like my husband did, that what he thought was "normal penile variation" is actually damage from the circ.

Edited to add: My DH just learned to cope with some of the various issues he has from his circ- but as far as I am concerned, I would prefer he didn't HAVE to learn to cope. And my DH internalized some of the issues from his circ as proof that he wasn't as "manly" as a man should be. It's pretty hard to deal with.

He who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe is as good as dead; his eyes are closed.  ~Albert Einstein
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