Do I have any say in naming our child? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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Old 10-14-2004, 09:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristaN
In other words, in a separation situation, the mother probably ought to have full custody of an infant b/c it is the child's right (IMO) to be breastfed. That can't be accomplished if s/he is away from mom too much. But, this has nothing to do with whether dad should be fully involved in the areas where mom doesn't have some unique ability (like bf) that dad doesn't have such as the naming process. Mom has no unique ability to pick a better name than dad. IMO, dad's naming ideas ought to carry as much weight as mom's.
As a BFing advocate myself I totally agree.

Sustainer you're right we can leave the dad's name off the birth certificate. However if the father (assuming he knows or has a suspicion) can petition for a paternity test and prove himself to be the father and then BAM! as you say he has rights. For that matter in many states the husband of a married woman is assumed to be the father and have rights to the child until proven otherwise. My DH doesn't have to have me name him as the father to have parental rights, by marriage it's already assumed he does.

Rainbow I'll assume it's only the mom who is allowed to fill out the birth certificate. In my case I was the only one there when they brought the form to be filled out. I do know that my FIL named DH without his mother's consent but I'll take your word for it that that's been changed. And I don't have a problem with the mother having the last say in filling out the birth certificate. I do however believe that a father can petition to be named as the father on the birth certificate whether the mom names him or not if it is proven the child is his. I just agree with Tiredx2 that in my relationship DH gets a say in how our children are named. That's just how we handle things and I don't feel that I own my children--they are our children. Honestly I don't see any personal attacks just a bit of shock over the rather extreme position being presented by Sustainer that she owns her children and her partner has no rights to them. I think she's very lucky that she has found someone who agrees with her. I think that's a rare man.
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Old 10-14-2004, 10:48 PM
 
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I agree with Wasabi, that Sustainer is lucky that she found the partner she did and that he is a rare man. It's great that Sustainer is so clear and precise about agreements and expectations up front.

I did go to her website and read some of it. While I can appreciate where she is coming from, I do think the feminist attitudes are a little dated. They were good ideas in the early feminist movement, to shake people's ideas up a little. But today, women have a much more active role in society. I believe the stats are that 30-50% of MDs graduating now from medical school are women? I don't think we need to take such an extreme position anymore about the patriarchy.

Personally, I think extreme matriarchy is no better than extreme patriarchy. (What is the word for shared governance in our language, anyway?)

It's like the ritual for "giving the woman away" that she mentions at her website. I didn't have that ritual when DH and I got married, because we didn't do the white wedding thing (mostly because we lived together first, for many reasons she listed). But, it was hard on my dad to not be able to "give me away". I think it would have helped him a lot to have a ritualized way of gracefully letting go of his daughter. Think about it. The dad is expected to show up, well dressed, behaving civilly in front of lots of people, and officially recognize her as a grown woman. While I probably agree with Sustainer on the idea of women being property, the whole evolution of it was also probably a big step forward at the time from stealing or buying/selling the woman.

Some rituals and laws have a purpose behind them that it's important to understand, so we know where we want to go.

It's like when I read the book Dead Man Walking and the author talks about the saying, "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth". Today, we interpret this to mean tit for tat, an inability to forgive, basically a bad way of looking at the world. But at the time, it was a huge advance from the traditional way of thinking. It meant that if someone stole an apple from you, he (or she) had to repay you the apple. That was restitution. You weren't allowed to cut off their hand.

My point is that thinking evolves over time. Societies change, and rituals need to change with them.
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Old 10-14-2004, 11:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by nurnur4evr
Personally, I think extreme matriarchy is no better than extreme patriarchy.
Exactly! This is what we have now thanks to the Feminist movement getting way out of hand. It was intended to give women equal rights, yet it has now forced special rights and priviledges for women. A demanded superior status. It is completely wrong.

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Old 10-15-2004, 07:19 PM
 
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I also agree that extreme matriarchy is no better than extreme patriarchy. It's not right to remove the rights of men because women once had no rights. Two wrongs don't make a right.
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Old 10-15-2004, 07:31 PM
 
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no need to worry about scales tipping too far, the patriarchy is live and well . . .
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Old 10-17-2004, 02:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MyCalling
Exactly! This is what we have now thanks to the Feminist movement getting way out of hand. It was intended to give women equal rights, yet it has now forced special rights and priviledges for women. A demanded superior status. It is completely wrong.
Are you serious?!

I'm sorry but we are still living in a male dominated society- just because there has been action to try and help women catch up in this male dominated society does not mean the scales are tipped.

That is like saying Affirmative action hurts the white population- just because we make efforts to try and help the under dog catch up does NOT mean the underdog has taken over.

Get involved in the corporate world, military, politics, or any other main foot of our society and see just how much of a "superior status" women have.
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Old 10-17-2004, 03:03 PM
 
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I disagree. The circumstances Sustainer is advocating would be like AA saying that white people can no longer be hired. She doesn't want to give women more rights than fathers. She wants mothers to have all rights and fathers to have none.
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Old 10-17-2004, 06:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by wasabi
I disagree. The circumstances Sustainer is advocating would be like AA saying that white people can no longer be hired. She doesn't want to give women more rights than fathers. She wants mothers to have all rights and fathers to have none.
I was responding to this:

"Exactly! This is what we have now thanks to the Feminist movement getting way out of hand. It was intended to give women equal rights, yet it has now forced special rights and priviledges for women. A demanded superior status. It is completely wrong."

which was in response to this:
"Personally, I think extreme matriarchy is no better than extreme patriarchy."

I'm reading that we live in an extreme matriachy and that is what baffles me, not that it has potential to get out of hand. I'll be the first to admit it could. I will not agree that we live in a female dominated society where females hold the power and privilege. it made me irrate to read it earlier, now I just think it is funny.

T
My husband and I have no set "rules" but he does acknowledge that I am their primary caregiver and that as such they should never be forcively removed from my primary care. I am 100% confident he would not try to take them from me more hours than was comfortable for them. He's also 100% confident I would know it was in my child's best interest to have an active and involved father.
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Old 10-17-2004, 06:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Rainbow
I'm reading that we live in an extreme matriachy and that is what baffles me, not that it has potential to get out of hand. I'll be the first to admit it could. I will not agree that we live in a female dominated society where females hold the power and privilege. it made me irrate to read it earlier, now I just think it is funny.
I don't think anyone was saying that. I believe the quote you gave that I agreed with regarding extreme matriarchy was in response to reading what Sustainer advocates on her website. I don't believe we do live in an extreme matriarchy or an extreme partiarchy at this time. I was saying I would not advocate going to an extreme matriarchy to compensate for having lived in an extreme patriarchy.
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Old 10-17-2004, 08:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Rainbow
Are you serious?!

I'm sorry but we are still living in a male dominated society- just because there has been action to try and help women catch up in this male dominated society does not mean the scales are tipped.

That is like saying Affirmative action hurts the white population- just because we make efforts to try and help the under dog catch up does NOT mean the underdog has taken over.

Get involved in the corporate world, military, politics, or any other main foot of our society and see just how much of a "superior status" women have.
Actually, I get special consideration on business loans, college admissions and grants, hiring to meet a quota, etc. whereas my husband doesn't. Women of course think this is wonderful. Special priviledges. What it is really saying is that we are inferior and therefore need to compete with special consideration to get anything in life. This is bull. We all need to be judges equally. And no, I do NOT agree with Affirmative action for the same reasons. I as a woman do not even get the extra 20 points minorities do when applying to colleges. That does not make anything "equal". That is saying the exact same thing, they are dumber and therefore need an extra 20 point boost to make up for it to be judged equally. Of course no one will say it that way, but that is exactly what it is doing. If they truly wanted to be equal, they would be judged on the same point scale as every white/non-white man and woman. But why give up a perk when you got it?

As for family, which is what this thread is all about. Women are given special priviledges now when deciding custody, support, etc. My mom works in family law and has for decades. It has gotten extremely biased towards the mother's benefit and this DOES NOT MAKE UP FOR ANYTHING IN THE PAST. Two wrongs don't make a right and it doesn't accomplish the original goals of the feminist movement.

As for the military, women are naturally not as strong, athletic, skilled with weapons etc. as men. If I was to join the military (which I was signed up to go into the Navy at 19 years old) it would be I who would need to meet their level, not them lower their standards to accomidate me. If I couldn't accomplish that, then I would need to find another career and not b!tch and moan how I was treated unfairly (which in reality: wasn't treated "special").

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Old 10-18-2004, 02:31 PM
 
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T
It is not a matriarchy, AT ALL, until women hold the majority power in the society to enforce their ideals on the rest of society AND DO.

White males still hold the power in our society. Special provisons are made to help even the score, because it has been uneven for far to long due to patriarchy. A patriarchy that still exists. Women are now (thanks to feminism) let in the lower levels of our country's politics, but they aren't able to climb all that high. Hilary Clinton has probably climbed the highest to date. And she had help getting there as the *wife* of a succesful politician. Do you know the ratio of men to women in her level of politics? Liekwise, do you know the ratio of men to women in CEO levels in corporations? How about in high ranking intellectual fields of our military?

These special provisions as you call them are to help acheive equality, not inequality. Maybe you were fortunate enough to be born in a feminist minded family that said "you can be anything you want to be" "it is ok for you to open a business" but not all women are. I for one was raised to believe I could *only* be a mother and homemaker. That my place was under a man. Rising above that and choosing career, college, or work is much harder for a woman who has lived that- when pretty much all men are told they can be whatever profession they want, and not only that- but that they WILL HAVE to be.

This inequality affects our males as well. It has become moderately socially acceptable for my daughters to wear stereotypically male clothing and play sports. It has not become socially acceptable for our sons to wear a tutu and play princess. Same with SAHDads.

Feminism is working to promote the score, and while you may think some radical feminism is extreme and female dominated, it is not a matriarchy society until those women hold the majority power in our society and are able to enforce their views on others. Until then it is simply opinion.

Just my POV
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Old 10-18-2004, 03:03 PM
 
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This topic really is unfair to the OP- we should probably start another thread if we want to discuss wether we now live in a matriarchy or not.
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Old 10-19-2004, 12:24 AM
 
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Hopefully, the OP is by now the proud papa of a beautiful baby, has figured out the name, and is now trying to remember where he left the burp cloth.

Last we heard hear, his wife was having Braxton-Hix contractions.

Wouldn't it be a little ironic if the baby is a girl, after all the heated discussion here. Isn't that just how it goes?
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Old 10-19-2004, 01:40 AM
 
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Originally Posted by MyCalling
Women are given special priviledges now when deciding custody, support, etc.
Can I ask where you get this from? From my understanding- more and more fathers are being given joint, or even full, custody of the kids. More so than in the past. As far as support goes I have to laugh at that. My ex pays (or will pay as it hasn't started yet b/c the d*mn system is so slow) chump change for our DS. My whole paycheck, every week, goes to our DS. When he does get around to paying my ex will be paying about 20% of his paycheck (keep in mind he makes over 3 times as much as I do). Which wouldn't be horrible except he doesn't have ANY other bills (he lives with his mom rent free, drives her car which she pays the insurance and gas for, and eats the food she buys) so has over $1000/month to screw around with while I'm struggling to make sure our DS has clothes for the winter. Nope, somehow I think I got screwed instead of having a *special priviledge*.


(If this is totally off base from what you were talking about I apologize).

Steph, DH Jason (1-1-11), DS Owen (10-3-03) and DS Kai (10-13-11)

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Old 10-19-2004, 03:24 AM - Thread Starter
 
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My fellow posters - matriarchs and patriarchs. No baby yet. I have a feeling it is a girl but the dilema is if it is a boy. DW suggested Kyan Jude. I took a pass on Jude.

The whole birth thing is kind of a bummer for me this time. Knowing if it is a boy, he could be named something I do not like.

But at least DW is suggesting other names besides Andrew!
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Old 10-19-2004, 03:48 AM
 
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I like your way of thinking, Sustainer. I share your views completely. Wish you hadn't left the discussion although I understand why you did. If you ever come back here to read any of these posts, I hope it gives you satisfaction that at least another womon understands your logic and agrees with you 100%.

~WomynTruth
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Old 10-19-2004, 03:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by bayviewbill33
My fellow posters - matriarchs and patriarchs. No baby yet. I have a feeling it is a girl but the dilema is if it is a boy. DW suggested Kyan Jude. I took a pass on Jude.

The whole birth thing is kind of a bummer for me this time. Knowing if it is a boy, he could be named something I do not like.

But at least DW is suggesting other names besides Andrew!
Jude is kind of like Drew...
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Old 10-19-2004, 04:21 AM
 
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Kian Elliott.... Kian Nash..... Kian Gabriel.... Kian Dominic.... Kian Levi.... Kian Angelo..... Kian Brodie..... Kian Orion..... Kian Phoenix.....

Ohhh, this is just too much fun!! I want another baby!!! :-(

But alas, my body is too old for such things. Tis such a shame!

~WomynTruth
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Old 10-19-2004, 04:20 PM
 
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I hope the baby comes soon bayview!
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Old 10-31-2004, 12:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thank you all for your posts. I guess all the "discussions" my wife & I had for the boy's name is now null & void. My wife gave birth to our DAUGHTER 10/29/2004 @ 8:55 p.m. She is 7 pounds 5 oz & 21 inches long. Her name is Tara Grace. I do not know how to attach a pic of her otherwise I would.
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Old 10-31-2004, 12:49 PM
 
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Congrats!!!

Steph, DH Jason (1-1-11), DS Owen (10-3-03) and DS Kai (10-13-11)

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Old 10-31-2004, 05:16 PM
 
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CONGRATULATIONS!!!!

I was waiting on pins and needles. . .so glad to hear that your baby has arrived!

Best of luck to your family!
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